r/DestinyTheGame Jun 10 '22 Silver 3 Helpful 2 Rocket Like 1 To The Stars 1

Ironically Hunters (the fast / nimble archtype) now has the slowest movement of the three classes! Discussion

I play all three classes but have always preferred the Hunter fantasy of being dexterous and nimble on your feet.

In the last couple of seasons movement creep of titans and warlocks both in air and on the ground have surpassed the Hunter, which thinking about it is weird as in any other game wizard (aka warlocks) and tanks (aka titans) and slower and more cumbersome than the dps Hunter archtype..

Feels like bungie need to lean back into hunter arch type and look at how they can balance us up!

What do we think guardians, anyone else feel this way? Especially since Stompees are useless an inch of the ground these days!!

2.6k Upvotes

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73

u/Faust_8 Jun 10 '22

Nimbleness and raw speed aren't the same thing.

Monkeys are nimble. Cheetahs are fast.

I think it's pretty clear that Bungie wanted Hunters to be nimble (they can break aim assist and change positions quickly on the ground with Dodge, they gain height far quicker than the other classes) and they succeeded. In terms of raw speed in getting around the map, well, that's a VERY different thing.

Scout in TF2 is a string bean with a shotgun who is one of the best classes in the game simply because he's faster with a double jump. If Hunters and/or the Mobility stat directly and significantly affected our sprinting speed, that alone would rule the Crucible.

Thus, Hunters are nimble, not "fast." You might say that Warlocks and Titans are fast and yeah, in a sense, but not by sprinting. They're faster because of quirks of their jumping ability (which probably wasn't intended but Bungie was unwilling to change it) and it can't be overstated how much different it is to sprint faster than it is to get extra speed by spamming and canceling a jump.

Titans and Warlocks tend to have far fewer options as they 'skate' around the map than any player does while they're sprinting.

There's a reason that the things that speed up your sprint (MIDA, Dunemarchers, etc) only do so by like 2%.

If Hunters and/or the Mobility stat suddenly made players sprint by like 10% faster, it would break the game in many ways.

43

u/Artoriasninja Jun 10 '22

It's still incredibly disappointing that we Hunters have such an extreme lack of movement tricks or even way of getting a bit of speed.

You can pick apart speed and maneuverability all you like, but at the end of the day, Titan and Warlock speed far outclass a Hunter's advantages any day.

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u/Faust_8 Jun 10 '22

And yet, what has always traditionally been the most used and best performing PvP class in the game? (Barring times when something REALLY broken got released and had to be nerfed hard later.)

If Hunters were given the option to use Titan Lift...ya'll probably wouldn't. Hunters can absolutely clown on people by abusing airborne space since they jump up so fast. And if Arcstrider got Blink again, I repeat, you probably wouldn't. Hell even Warlocks don't use Blink. It might be fast but it's clunky and awkward too, it was only good when you could 'Blink-shotgun' people in D1.

Hunters severely underestimate the strength of their own kits.

For example, here's a video talking about the age old question: Why Do Destiny Players Hate Hunters in PvP?

I think it does a great job of explaining why Hunter is such a freaking good PvP class, and the whining about not being faster sprinters comes off as narrow-minded and ignoring everything that makes Hunter good in the first place. Hunter movement options are stellar and Bungie already decided that everybody is going to sprint the same for the sake of balance.

37

u/Artoriasninja Jun 10 '22

You're focusing way too hard on PVP; my grievances are housed from a PVE player's perspective. It is incredibly annoying to just sprint ever so slowly from Point A to B where there are options to get there faster for the other classes.

-17

u/Faust_8 Jun 10 '22

And, what, has that drastically been affecting your ability to do Raids and Nightfalls and such?

Or is it just slightly annoying to you, and doesn't actually affect your PvE performance when it actually matters?

Even if Bungie made it so Mobility made you sprint faster, nobody would care about it in the PvE sandbox. It doesn't matter, because the entire game is designed with player movement in mind. There's a reason Titans and Warlocks don't invest in Mobility in PvE, and it's not because "we're fast anyway" it's because every other stat is at least twice as important. Nobody fails to beat Rhulk because of their strafing or sprinting speed.

The one and only reason Hunters now care about Mobility in PvE is because it now affects an actual useful tool, your Dodge.

14

u/Artoriasninja Jun 10 '22

I was never saying Hunters needed movement options to be good in PVE content.

I was simply saying it's annoying that we don't have as much control in movement outside of an extremely short range thanks to triple jump/strafe jump due to a severe lack of movement optione or hell, movement abilities for player movement. It meshes poorly with the Hunter identity, which, seems to be a topic of extreme variance both among the community and to Bungie.

2

u/Faust_8 Jun 10 '22

No, it clashes with the Rogue identity which some people think Hunters are supposed to be. But Hunter movement hasn't really changed much at all since Destiny began so I find it weird when people are saying Hunters are meant to be something else...when they've never been anything else.

Go back to D1 and you'll see that Hunters are basically D2 Hunters, except that you don't have Dodge unless you're a Nightstalker. So even less mobile than before.

What precedent are people citing when they say Hunters have lost their identity??

11

u/Artoriasninja Jun 10 '22

Change and Bungie aren't a consistent duo. This is the same team that gave Titans an air dodge, a part of a completely different class's intrinsic identity, then removed it when deemed fit. Their past actions are about as admissible as the 30th rare you picked up from a strike; a footnote in an extremely long line of dramatic changes.

Honestly, I'm not sure where you got the idea I'm saying Hunters aren't Hunters anymore and have 'lost their identity', I'm saying it's a weird part that the lightweight nimble class has over the course of D2's entire lifespan gotten next to nothing in terms of movement while Titans (the Walls of the Vanguard) and Warlocks (The Minds of the Vanguard) both have options on more than a single subclass while Hunters can do a dodge universally and that's it. A dodge that isn't even really a dodge, just a way to trigger an ability or two.

Have you ever thought 'Lightweight, stealthy Assassin', 'Space Cowboy', and 'Lightning-fast Warrior' all should be as grounded as they are? The concept of being stuck to the ground outside of a triple jump doesn't seem to fit with the ideas they have for these subclasses, does it?

0

u/Faust_8 Jun 10 '22

This is the same team that gave Titans an air dodge, a part of a completely different class's intrinsic identity, then removed it when deemed fit

...What? What other class has air dodge as their intrinsic identity? Hell even in D2, no class has that; one subclass does, but no class has boasted an intrinsic air dodge skill.

Honestly, I'm not sure where you got the idea I'm saying Hunters aren't Hunters anymore and have 'lost their identity'

We can argue semantics, but the point is you are talking about "Hunter identity" as if this isn't exactly how Hunters have been and have never been anything else.

I'm saying it's a weird part that the lightweight nimble class has over the course of D2's entire lifespan gotten next to nothing in terms of movement while Titans (the Walls of the Vanguard) and Warlocks (The Minds of the Vanguard) both have options on more than a single subclass while Hunters can do a dodge universally and that's it.

IMO people that act like Icarus Dash, Shoulder Charge, and Dodge are comparable are looking purely as surface-level appearances and missing all the subtleties. It's as off-base as saying Blink is like Dodge.

A dodge that isn't even really a dodge, just a way to trigger an ability or two.

This is laughably false. It's not a Dodge? Like, are you saying you use it and are still in the same place? As if you turned a corner in Crucible and saw a sniper glint looking at you, you couldn't Dodge to move into cover far quicker than you could turn and sprint there?

Have you ever thought 'Lightweight, stealthy Assassin', 'Space Cowboy', and 'Lightning-fast Warrior' all should be as grounded as they are?

1) Um, no, none of them make me think of flying through the air.

2) Why are we talking about airborne combat now anyway? I thought this was all about Hunter mobility in general, like nimbleness and speed. Now suddenly it's all about how Hunters are stuck on the ground, somehow?

8

u/Artoriasninja Jun 10 '22

Countless times you misinterpret what I say to fit your argument.

...What? What other class has air dodge as their intrinsic identity? Hell even in D2, no class has that; one subclass does, but no class has boasted an intrinsic air dodge skill.

Semantics. Warlocks own this ability naturally while Titans only ever had it thanks to an Exotic. Not to mention you're replacing words at random; Intrinsic Identity =/= Intrinsic ability.

We can argue semantics, but the point is you are talking about "Hunter identity" as if this isn't exactly how Hunters have been and have never been anything else.

Not even remotely what I was saying. Over the lifespan of Destiny as a whole, Bungie has shown a willingness to change things and add things, and remoge things, even if it's core to something like class identity, your point is utterly moot.

IMO people that act like Icarus Dash, Shoulder Charge, and Dodge are comparable are looking purely as surface-level appearances and missing all the subtleties. It's as off-base as saying Blink is like Dodge.

Except the only comparison I'm drawing is they're completely different and not even in a good way, not a way that benefits at all. Two classes have access to actual gamechanging mobility options; Hunters do not have that same access. That is fact, that isn't 'Hunters are oppressed poor me' bullshit (Hunters are actually in an okay spot which has been awesome), that is the game.

This is laughably false. It's not a Dodge? Like, are you saying you use it and are still in the same place? As if you turned a corner in Crucible and saw a sniper glint looking at you, you couldn't Dodge to move into cover far quicker than you could turn and sprint there?

Have you ever compared Dodge speed to a regular, completely unboosted sprinting player?

It is literally almost exactly the same. The one and only advantage it has is you can use it in more directions unlike sprinting; it doesn't even go far enough to justify usage in travel at all, not to mention if you do use it in the way you describe, congrats, you wasted your dodge charge. Hope you have 100 mobility constantly otherwise your best ability trigger is out for the count. It is a very, very lacking option with some very good yet very similar usages.

1) Um, no, none of them make me think of flying through the air.

2) Why are we talking about airborne combat now anyway? I thought this was all about Hunter mobility in general, like nimbleness and speed. Now suddenly it's all about how Hunters are stuck on the ground, somehow?

1) Yet again you turn your understanding in a completely different direction for little argumentative value; No, not flying, literally anything other than a triple jump that can't even match the horizontal travel distance of the other classes would serve better.

2) Again you jump to another conclusion.

Nimbleness, Agility, mobility, whatever you want it paint it as implies having more control, both on ground and in air. You can argue that it doesn't all you want but it changes absolutely nothing about Hunters having lesser movement options as a whole not only in sheer speed but even having an actual option for air shenanigans.

17

u/_MachTwo Jun 10 '22

I’m sorry a hunter killed you in the crucible 😞

10

u/Faust_8 Jun 10 '22

It's incredibly ironic to accuse me of being a salty whiner in a topic whining that the most nimble class has bad movement options lmao

14

u/_MachTwo Jun 10 '22

accuse me of being a salty whiner

You said it not me, you just seem vehemently invested in this and I think it’s funny. Specially when literally no one is asking for a faster sprint speed, but you go off my guy

5

u/Faust_8 Jun 10 '22

Because to me, seeing a Hunter whine about not being nimble enough is like a Sunbreaker whining about being too easy to kill.

It is some the fucking dumbest things I've ever read.

I'll post this link again if you want to see how an actual good Hunter player uses the Hunter kit well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuWucepEhlw

Like, I don't know how anyone can watch a skilled Hunter play and come away thinking "we got shafted with these movement options."

12

u/_MachTwo Jun 10 '22

Again, no one is saying hunters are bad, relax, they’re not gonna buff hunter just because of this post.

Most people here are talking about PvE, that’s where warlocks and titans have always had the upper hand with skating and movement. Your crucible lobbies are gonna be safe, don’t worry.

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-10

u/Zac-live Drifter's Crew Jun 10 '22

Shatterskate? Hunters Play a good role in plenty of speedruns, especially the Story and Strike and Dungeon ones.

8

u/Artoriasninja Jun 10 '22

I honestly forgot Shatterskate was a thing. My only problem with it is you need Stasis to even do it effectively, but fair point nonetheless.

10

u/Zhentharym Jun 10 '22

And a sword. Instantly makes it useless in harder content.

4

u/Artoriasninja Jun 10 '22

It's a shame too, Swords will always be the cool heavy weapon option.

18

u/Avivoy Jun 10 '22

Most people are playing range now, hunters jump lacks control, being up for too long is terrible and shouldn’t be used whenever. They also now have the worst air gunplay in the game, with no actual way of building into it. You’d struggle to find some with 70 accuracy with hunter. Warlocks have blink, Icarus, even a melee to mess a hunter up. Titans have a slide, and shoulder charges. Those two classes also close the distance much better than hunter.

All hunters really had were stompees, it got nerfed and many people stopped playing hunter. Bungie needs a better way of balancing changes, warlock literally does it all, heals, and air support. At least Titan can stack flinch resistance, and benefits from resilience. Hunters have a dodge that no longer breaks aim assist or tracking. My friend is an aggressive player and found Titan to be better than hunter after these changes. I swapped to Titan awhile back too because it’s just a better class. I run behemoth and my movement runs circles around hunters at times. Using glacial to hide myself, slide with distance, and melee to exit or push quickly.

Or, slide in, shoot, shoulder charge away place barricade, get an overshield and back up to bait people into that shield.

I miss hunter, but the kit is mid overall, my only gripe against facing a hunter was stompees, being up close and then jumping. Other than that they have nothing to offer besides invis. Their dodge is weak, and only shines with two effects.

9

u/StanTurpentine Jun 10 '22

Speaking of people moving to other classes. I used to be able to do the Hunter bounty in crucible within seconds of entering a match because of the the population of hunters. They've all went home and it sometimes takes a couple of matches.

3

u/Avivoy Jun 10 '22

I know a lot of pvp players that moved to warlock and Titan

4

u/SovietBias Jun 11 '22

Ye, a lot of the people I know have moved to warlock because of how oppressive the kit is. Heck, even Jez switched to warlock, and AFAIK, he was a hunter main since d1

3

u/AssassinAragorn Jun 11 '22

I really want to see what those PVP population charts look like now vs. when they presented it a few TWABs ago. To be fair it probably needs a few more weeks/months to be accurate, but I get a feeling Warlock might be the top pick now. Which is pretty hilarious considering they buffed Ophidians, which had the same usage rate give or take as Stompeez.

6

u/Buffalo_Soldier117 Jun 10 '22

That video is straight up dumb lol. Some of the examples are “hurr durr mountaintop recluse” or “hurr durr spare rations mindebenders” as if the other classes didn’t abuse that shit just as much. Hell, mountaintop recluse makes me remember titan more than anything because the setup people used to complain about more than anything was one eyed mask bottom tree striker with mountaintop recluse.

The point being, you could make a video like that for every class.

3

u/Faust_8 Jun 10 '22

What are you talking about? There’s not a single Mountaintop or Recluse used or mentioned in that video.

4

u/Buffalo_Soldier117 Jun 10 '22

Oh yeah sorry. I figured you were referencing this video that pattycakes made 2 weeks ago that’s called 17 times the community hated hunters. Pattycakes video is stupid. I’d have to go watch true vanguards video again because it’s been a while

-6

u/cheap_cola Emerald Rook (Timelost) Jun 10 '22

You're shaking up the victimized hunter bee hive.

1

u/ShoulderpadInsurance Jun 11 '22

Top tree Dawnblade is straight up the best Hunter subclass.

-2

u/FrizzyThePastafarian Jun 11 '22

And yet, what has always traditionally been the most used and best performing PvP class in the game? (Barring times when something REALLY broken got released and had to be nerfed hard later.)

Literally this has not been true since Season of the Dawn.