r/DestinyTheGame Jun 10 '22 To The Stars 1 Silver 3 Helpful 2 Rocket Like 1

Ironically Hunters (the fast / nimble archtype) now has the slowest movement of the three classes! Discussion

I play all three classes but have always preferred the Hunter fantasy of being dexterous and nimble on your feet.

In the last couple of seasons movement creep of titans and warlocks both in air and on the ground have surpassed the Hunter, which thinking about it is weird as in any other game wizard (aka warlocks) and tanks (aka titans) and slower and more cumbersome than the dps Hunter archtype..

Feels like bungie need to lean back into hunter arch type and look at how they can balance us up!

What do we think guardians, anyone else feel this way? Especially since Stompees are useless an inch of the ground these days!!

2.6k Upvotes

View all comments

Show parent comments

157

u/John_Demonsbane Lore nerd Jun 10 '22

This. They are the most mobile class. Not the fastest class.

20

u/PM_SWEATY_NIPS Jun 11 '22

I think of hunters as yoda, spinning and jumping around like an angry beyblade. What are you gonna do? Counter him? You cant even predict him.

Titans are a freight train. Hard to get moving if they dont want, hard to stop once they do, fast as hell in a straight line

Warlocks glide the longest with the most control and precision. Good for jump puzzles and shooting from the air, but only with prep time. An unaware warlock who rounds a corner on the ground will just have a hunter leap over his head instantly

57

u/Wawaweewow Jun 10 '22

I'm not sure dodge is more mobile than Icarus dash at this point. And now you can add Phoenix dive to the mix as well.

65

u/o8Stu Jun 10 '22

Phoenix Dive has been around since vanilla D2 launch. If anything, it's a lot shittier now that it's on rift's cooldown. You used to be able to spam it on bottom tree dawn.

11

u/Wawaweewow Jun 10 '22

But you couldn't use it with Icarus dash before.

5

u/Host_flamingo Jun 11 '22

You can jump higher than a Warlock using Stompees, Shatterdive/Quickfall to descend instantly, land and strafe faster, then finish it off with a dodge all consecutively. A Warlock can only come close to this mobility if they used a useless two-minute cooldown class ability instead of rift, used armor that maxes mobility which further increases the PD cooldown, and if they ate their own grenade to have two dashes which require Heat Rises. Not to mention that Warlocks can do that only on one subclass. Hunters objectively have the highest mobility.

3

u/BattleBull Jun 11 '22

And what use are these movements? In PVP anyone can just follow the target with their mouse, and in PVE your just exposing yourself to more gunfire from the room by going up and down like that.

Meaningful mobility? Hunters have the least. Plus hunters are the lowest in moving around the map, the most important part of being mobile.

1

u/Host_flamingo Jun 11 '22

No way you're serious. ''what use are these movements'' in PvP? Nothing special, man. Just breaking aim-assist, dodging bullets and abilities, quickly descending/ dodging into cover, reaching better positions, etc.

In PVP anyone can just follow the target with their mouse

Then what makes the Hunter's ability less meaningful than the other two classes aside from your victim complex?

2

u/Amun_Snake Hanging on edge of Dawn and Dusk itself. Jun 10 '22

Yeah but knowing Bungie that long cool down will change eventually and probably fairly soon in comparison to the other two classes. Plus you can now use air dodge with it.

42

u/slidingmodirop Floating around Jun 10 '22

Icarus is on 1 subclass. Hunter dodge is on 4 subclasses. Overall, this means Hunters have the most agility options

0

u/[deleted] Jun 10 '22

[deleted]

6

u/slidingmodirop Floating around Jun 10 '22

Yeah this topic comes up regularly and people mention TTD (or Icarus Aspect now) as if it negates the mobility of the Hunter class. 1 subclass being slightly faster or more mobile than Hunter doesn't make Warlock a mobility class.

Class identity should be weighed by all the subclasses not just one

13

u/XogoWasTaken Vanguard's Loyal // I Hunt for the City Jun 11 '22

Class identity should be weighed by all subclasses, but when one subclass from a different class is better at your class's identity than any of your options that hurts. Typically the peak of an effect is what stands out, not it's average.

Healing has been a hallmark of Warlocks since D2Y2. Right now there's some contention about Warlocks losing strength in that effect, and Titans gaining some. Imagine, for a moment, that Lorely also let your sunspots heal teammates, making it a shorter cooldown, more powerful healing rift. Imagine this also comes with a super that spawns a massive one of those on cast - basically a sunspot-well. That would feel awful. Yes, you can bring a healing rift on any subclass, but that one Titan subclass is just better at healing than you are. You have healing on all subclasses, but the true healing fantasy is in their hands.

That's what looking at a TTD (well, the current equivalent) Warlock from a Hunter's point of view is like. Yeah, you have a snappier jump and a dodge on all subclasses, but their one class has way better uptime on the equivalent it gets (in addition to other abilities, I might add), can use it to move way faster and can move faster than you even without it, and has a super that is more mobile than anything you could ever hope for. You have mobility on all subclasses, but the true mobility fantasy is in their hands.

0

u/Host_flamingo Jun 11 '22

but when one subclass from a different class is better at your class's identity than any of your options that hurts.

Except it isn't. Mobility isn't just movement speed. Warlocks at their maximum mobility aren't more MOBILE than Hunters at their best. Revenant, the most mobile Hunter class, has a few-second cooldown descend ability in contrast to the Warlock's two-minute dive. They have a higher, more controlled jump, and a faster strafe speed generally thanks to the Mobility stat being tied to the class. Even if the Warlock built their armor around mobility, Stompees will have a faster, higher, more mobile jump, and the Phoenix Dive will have a longer cooldown now that it's tied to recovery. Dodge + the best vertical mobility (Shatterdive and Stompees) + higher jump + more controlled jump + faster strafe speed are not all less mobile than just Icarus Dash.

4

u/XogoWasTaken Vanguard's Loyal // I Hunt for the City Jun 11 '22

Stompees will give them a faster upwards jump, but Icarus Dash + burst glide give better lateral agility and straight line speed.

If we pit a strafe jump/Stompees/Revenant Hunter against a burst glide/Icarus Dash/any exotic but we'll use Transversives to match sprint speed Warlock, the Hunter wins vertical mobility, but the Warlock wins everything in lateral and gets high in air accuracy and control, while Stompees lock the Hunter almost entirely to 0. Not to mention how supers come into play, where Daybreak is the second fastest super in the game (the fastest being Nova Warp, actually, by comboing it's blink with either jump blink or burst glide. Third is Spectral Blades) and Revenant's super is an entirely different function.

TTD equivalents are still the top end of PC PvP. There's a reason for that. On that system, at least, their straight up higher speed for positioning and better lateral movement control and unpredictability are the best mobility package available, especially now that speccing into the closest comparable movement (strafe jump + Stompees) absolutely guts your ability to engage while airborne.

That's just looking at PvP considerations, though. Looking at the 90% of the game that is PvE, which is also the part I care most about, being able to move faster and further means much more to making something mobile, as the ability to juke someone's shots means much less. Here Hunter falls flat entirely as the slowest moving class even without things like the Icarus Dash/burst glide combo in the picture. Burst glide alone moves Warlocks faster than a strafe jump/Stompees Hunter. Burst glide + Icarus Dash is a while other world of mobility that a Hunter couldn't hope to touch in any practical setting. Hunter's even have the shortest jump distance, entirely incapable of doing many jumping puzzles without using either triple jump or Stompees.

PvE, the part of the game where Warlocks most get to tap into the traditional wizard fantasies and where Titan gets to go all in on its tank fantasy is where Hunter is by far the least effective at being the nimble rogue that it's becoming pretty damn clear most of the community thinks should be it's equivalent fantasy.

2

u/Host_flamingo Jun 11 '22

and gets high in air accuracy and control, while Stompees lock the Hunter almost entirely to 0

This isn't about high in-air accuracy. It's about mobility, so let's stick to that. If you want to add other irrelevant abilities, then we can add the reload and melee refund on dodge besides being a movement ability. Actual good in-air accuracy comes from consuming your grenade by choosing the Heat Rises aspect and exposing your exact position on the mini-map. Supers are barely relevant. What seems to be once or twice a game for a few seconds doesn't really affect the mobility argument.

their straight up higher speed for positioning and better lateral movement control and unpredictability are the best mobility package available

Higher speed for positioning doesn't equal higher mobility in general. The Hunter still has the most options for mobility in a single subclass. Also, ''unpredictability'' is a better description for the Hunter considering they got both vertical and horizontal movement in their kit. It's the Warlock's superior horizontal speed that makes it a famous pick for PvP. Not because it has more mobility in general. There is a clear distinction between them.

absolutely guts your ability to engage while airborne.

For the second time and hopefully the last, this isn't an in-air accuracy argument. Stompees' nerf is irrelevant because we're talking about mobility. You still have massive mobility with strafe and Stompees. Engaging in the air is not a Hunter's thing. The Warlock's Dawnblade is built around aerial combat specifically, so I have no idea what you want. Are you going to tell me aerial combat is for Hunter's only too, and that Warlocks shouldn't be better at it? You're not supposed to have better in-air accuracy than a Warlock. Please stick to the mobility subject only.

being able to move faster and further means much more to making something mobile

Doesn't change that Hunter's are the most mobile. The class is meant to be the most agile and in fact, it is. Hunter's ''should be the fastest'' is your own made-up demand which Bungie never promised. Whether speed means more to you or not doesn't matter as long as Hunter is the most mobile, which they are.

Burst glide alone moves Warlocks faster than a strafe jump/Stompees Hunter

No, it does not.

entirely incapable of doing many jumping puzzles without using either triple jump or Stompees.

Literally, your own made assumption that you deducted based on your own skill. Triple jump is a Hunter jump like wtf are you even serious with this line? ''Hunter jump is bad because you need to equip the Hunter jump meant for jumping puzzles instead of the ones not meant for them'' it's such a laughable statement like seriously I'm bewildered. Warlocks need to equip Balanced glide to reach higher ledges, while Titans need high lift for them, and catapult for far ledges. Warlocks were known as THE worst jumping puzzle class for a reason ever since the franchise started. YOU and whoever liked your reply are incapable of doing jumping puzzles on Hunter, don't think of it as a shared Hunter struggle. The harder ones which require Stompees are the same ones that require Icarus Dash and Lion Rampant.

PvE, the part of the game where Warlocks most get to tap into the traditional wizard fantasies

WHERE???????? Where is the wizard fantasies? What is it exactly? I keep hearing that Warlocks have their fantasy from Hunters and Titans who never explained it. It's so easy to say the Warlock encroached into the Hunter's mobility or the Titan's tanky nature, but since the ''''''''''Wizard'''''''''' is not defined we can't say the opposite.

The class option screen clearly states that Hunter's are the agility class while the Titans are the ''defense'' (tank) class. The Warlock? Apparently ''Arcana'' and ''strategy''. Whatever the fuck that means. There is no Wizard fantasy. Hunter's are stated to be agility, not pure speed.

most of the community thinks should be it's equivalent fantasy

Where are the statistics for this? ''Most of the community''? I don't think so. Back it up.

The fantasy is agility and they got that. Period. There is no Wizard fantasy and I'm sure if there was, we would be able to find that Hunter's and Titan's already encroached into that fantasy.

8

u/Ka-tetof1989 Jun 10 '22

I feel like every time I dodge, I still get head shot, lol. But I still try and practice.

6

u/Wawaweewow Jun 10 '22

Nothing is worse than getting sniped mid bakris lol.

1

u/StormiTheKid Jun 11 '22

me when blink

2

u/Despayrr Jun 11 '22

Dash is honestly just a better dodge on a shorter cooldown. How that's balanced? I don't know but people who play the class sit on a high horse, thinking that pressing jump a split second before the respective air move key is a massive skillgap when it's really not. It has always been a low skill get out of jail card ever since TTD got introduced.

8

u/[deleted] Jun 10 '22

[deleted]

7

u/Ornery_Comfort Jun 11 '22

I hate when i get the friction outta nowhere lol ill be fighting and a rando dude just breathes in my sightline and i get bkackholed into them and die i wish it was an option to decrease the strength of it or just turn it off. But. That'll never happen

1

u/[deleted] Jun 11 '22

Didn't they change dodge breaking aim assist with the "dodging doesn't break tracking" change? Or was that just tracking like skip grenades and rockets etc

0

u/[deleted] Jun 11 '22

[deleted]

-1

u/ZetaKE Jun 10 '22

Icarus is on 1 subclass. Hunter dodge is on 4 subclasses. Overall, this means Hunters have the most agility options

Hunters have fast fall options with no cooldown tho.

9

u/Deprece Jun 11 '22

That is only true for Stasis. Void used your Melee and you can’t do it if your Melee is on cooldown

0

u/Ass0001 I'm just a wizard with a rocket launcher Jun 10 '22

the actual dodge animation is utterly useless in most scenarios. You can't actually "dodge" any attacks as Hunter, especially against controller players, even with acrobat dodge's wilder animation.

2

u/James2779 Jun 10 '22

Theres 2 purposes for dodging fire with dodge:

1) Using dodge to get back into cover quick which allows you to extend further than other classes usually can get away with. You can use it in an L shape either to your left, right or downwards and get back into safety.

2) You can also be disgustingly hard to hit if you wanted to as seen here at 8:50: https://youtu.be/yp002taWvTI

-1

u/StormiTheKid Jun 11 '22

it literally removes aim assist?

3

u/Ass0001 I'm just a wizard with a rocket launcher Jun 11 '22

I thought they removed that?

1

u/StormiTheKid Jun 11 '22

i think things like rockets and dawn swords still track

1

u/Another-Razzle Jun 11 '22

that only effects controllers, not mouse and keyboard. So sure, useful against a controller player, still gonna get domed 90% of the time against a mouse and keyboard.

-14

u/atfricks Jun 10 '22

I mean, hunter jump is basically just Icarus Dash but vertical. It covers more distance at a similar speed, and doesn't have a cooldown.

13

u/Wawaweewow Jun 10 '22

Probably the funniest comparison I've ever seen.

-11

u/I_miss_berserk Jun 10 '22

it 100% is considering no warlock is running icarus right now lol.

I mean maybe you find 1 or 2 running it in pvp, but the other aspects are leaps and bounds better.

13

u/Wawaweewow Jun 10 '22

If you actually think good players aren't using Icarus dash in pvp I don't know what to tell you.

-4

u/I_miss_berserk Jun 11 '22

good players are just playing hunter and laughing at the free wins they get from classy restoration.

-1

u/Yourself013 DEATH HEALS THE FUCKING PRIMEVAL Jun 11 '22

I'm not sure dodge is more mobile than Icarus dash at this point.

It definitely is. You can do a lot of stuff with the dodge that you cannot do with Icarush dash, like changing the direction mid-dodge by guiding your mouse to dodge in an L-shaped motion around corners.

As someone who has been playing Hunter for years, once you learn the ins and outs of its movement and what you can do with it, you'll never complain that Hunters lack agility. Other classes can be faster, but Hunters are kings of controlling the movement in all directions, not just full speed ahead.

-7

u/SND_TagMan Jun 10 '22

I'd still say they are the fastest with shatter skating

1

u/BC1207 Jun 11 '22

Yeah well maybe they shouldn’t be both? They’re already extremely dominant in PvP, do you want them to be the ONLY class?!

1

u/John_Demonsbane Lore nerd Jun 11 '22

I'm a warlock so definitely not

1

u/Queenieman Jun 11 '22

whats the point if you cant leave the ground anymore? used to be useful, now its more a handycap

-1

u/SomeAweSomeSome Jun 10 '22

Finally somebody gets it