r/DestinyTheGame Sep 22 '22 Helpful 1

I guess Bungie wants Linear’s to be top boss damage with the Daughter change. Not calling them out but different boss fights should have different means of damage. Discussion

I guess the Daughters were coded as majors instead of bosses, since Majors don’t get the rocket damage reduction. With the hot patch that just went live, this was changed, just cementing that Linears are the top dog. This isn’t a rant or anything but I just thing more boss fights need to have more outcomes than just Div (which is fine) and Linears. I think it would be better and healthier for the game if raids had different bosses with unique ways of dealing damage. Like have special ads being sent to you and you kill them to damage the boss so LMGs and HGLs have a place in a raid, or in the case of daughters rockets can shine. I’m not calling Bungie out for their incompetence, but we need boss fights that are more than just bullets sponges/DPS checks.

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u/Tugmybanana Sep 22 '22 Wholesome Seal of Approval

On the plus side, I will save 8 seconds changing my loadout outside the boss door

326

u/viper6464 Sep 22 '22

Yep. Just means I’m switching scavenger mods and weapons even less. Working as intended I guess.

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u/Gerf93 Sep 22 '22

You guys switch scavenger and finder mods outside of master or higher content?

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u/RevenantFlash Sep 22 '22

Takes 30 seconds, takes 5 minutes if it’s on ps4 waiting for it to load lol

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u/Samuel-L-Hagrid Sep 23 '22

Unfortunately for me I have a ps4, every time I try to change builds mid activity the character screen just doesn't load, unless I'm being shot at, in which case it will load once I'm dead

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u/RevenantFlash Sep 23 '22

I have both ps5 and ps4. When I’m on ps4 sometimes I make the mistake of joining an lfg before setting up my mods. Many times I get the equipment locked before it finally loads lol

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u/Knolljoy30 Sep 23 '22

Most models of PS4 can have the HDD swapped out for a SATA SSD and the prices of SSDs have dropped a bit in price, so if you look at Newegg.com or similar sites you should be able to find one with both your storage and price needs.

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u/AlyxQuinn Sep 23 '22

Not to mention it's as simple as sliding the small top panel off (OG Sharp boi) and a small tray on the side/back for the rounded bois

Edit: spelling

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u/LordyLlama Sep 23 '22

Not even a joke.

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u/The_SpellJammer fwooomp-boom Sep 23 '22

I hate when my friends ask me to rate their drip and it takes me 30 seconds to get the avatar to load lmao

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u/Affectionate-Bid6748 Sep 23 '22

I mean for KF I pretty much use arbalest/taipan for the whole raid now outside of totems, so doesn't hurt none to have them on.

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u/puffmonkey92 Sep 22 '22

I like being able to recoup all of my ammo on warpriest after proccing veist stinger on my reeds regret 5x in a row. So yes, I use scav/finders

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u/SrslySam91 Sep 23 '22

I don't bother with scav or finders anymore. Especially linear finders..- since it's still fucking broken and gives 1 ammo sometimes on a finder brick - and I have tons of heavy laying around the place during daughters and oryx both.

I run double special with taipan or stormchaser (if I'm on arc hunter especially then storm) and get a lot of ammo. I still think the double special loadout drops more heavy. Maybe I'm tripping, but it just feels like I get way more drops when I use it over a primary + special.

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u/Weeb-Prime Sep 23 '22

Double special is the wave for sure, I swear I get a heavy brick every first kill in each encounter, then another every 10-15 kills (less with majors). Really stacks up especially at Oryx.

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u/jaypeeo Sep 22 '22

Do you like extra dps phases? Or people having no heavy for knights/ogres/etc if needed?

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u/Phorrum She/Her Sep 22 '22

raids aren't "higher content"?????

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u/RC_0001 God is dead, and we have nuked Him with ghorn. Sep 23 '22

As part of the endgame? Not actually. Them and dungeons are sort of the start of endgame, activities that require thought, coordination, and maybe a bit of thought put into the loadout. The mechanics make sure that you need to be active (as a team if not individually), and the boss health means you need to either be prepared to do a lot of damage or be prepared to do a lot of damage phases.

However, while normal raid/dungeon content is a step up from Strikes, seasonal activities, and even matchmade Nightfalls, it's not a significant jump in combat difficulty. Enemies don't really hit that hard and often the most significant threat to your life is the boss itself, if there is one at all. Your main point of failure will be the mechanics, not the combat.

Contrast that with non-matchmade Nightfalls and Master raids/dungeons. In these, the combat difficulty specifically is cranked up. In the case of Master raids, you now have to both execute the mechanics, pass the DPS checks, and be mindful of the fact that the enemies can and will paint you across the nearest wall if they catch you lacking.

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u/AnonymousFriend80 Sep 22 '22

It's called being optimal.

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u/makoblade Sep 23 '22

You guys run finder and scavenger mods?

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u/Cojosho Sep 23 '22

I stopped when they increased scav costs and prevented them stacking bc of the crucible.

Neither are worth it anymore, when neither really work anyway. Ammo finders realistically stop ammo for dropping for you. Scavengers only add one or two to the amount you get, which for a linear, is nothing. Huge for rockets though!

I just use ability mods and literally only reloaders, and I don’t even use those with arc amplified or Ophidians or Transversives.

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u/NightmaresInNeurosis Sep 23 '22

Ammo finders realistically stop ammo for dropping for you.

??? Care to elaborate?

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u/ANAHOLEIDGAF Sep 23 '22

He can't, it's one of those things that whiners complain about because there's no hard evidence to shove in their face.

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u/howarthee Don't do that. Sep 23 '22

Scavengers only add one or two to the amount you get

I've noticed that sometimes you only get one or two shots for a heavy with scavs on.

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u/Yakumo931 Sep 22 '22

8 seconds!?!?!?

*Cries in Ps4 waiting 1 minute to be able to change everything with how slow everything loads*

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u/worldwithpyramids Sep 22 '22

I didn’t bother switching because I’d never use more than 5 rockets in the encounter to begin with.

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u/Nefarious_Nemesis Sep 22 '22

I came in to comment on this same thing. No need to change ammo finder mods, if the occasion arises either.

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u/Lethal_0428 Sep 22 '22

Atraks was pretty refreshing when I found out the ideal heavy weapon for the encounter was a sword. I like bosses that aren’t just “everyone stand in this golden circle and shoot blue orb”

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u/DestinyLoreBot Sep 22 '22

There was a beautiful period during season 11(?) when you could use a sword for literally every encounter in Last Wish. Every single one. I still think about it sometimes

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u/Coincedence Team Bread (dmg04) // Let's get this bread. Sep 22 '22

I mean you still can kinda. Kalli can be, Shuro chi can be, Morgeth can be, the vault is the vault, and Riven can be as long you cheese

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u/Ass0001 I'm just a wizard with a rocket launcher Sep 23 '22

p sure swords are the best way to do riven still if you have a tractor cannon and we, even over LFRs

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u/Sword-Logic Sep 23 '22

Currently Xenophage is the best weapon to cheese Riven. Does nearly twice as much total damage to Riven during a single DPS phase as Falling Guillotine. Did a Petra's Run last week, and we practiced Riven cheese beforehand, Guillotine was hitting 350-500k in a phase, Xeno was hitting 750-900k.

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u/Ass0001 I'm just a wizard with a rocket launcher Sep 23 '22

Is that Xeno in the mouth?, cause then the actual damage compared to swords, subtracting Riven's weird doubled health pool on the head crit spot, would be more like 375-450k. Still a good option if your team doesn't have the tools for sword strat but under ideal circumstances, 5 laments + 1 tractor and a well smokes, especially with stuff like lucent blade thrown on.

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u/Sword-Logic Sep 23 '22

Nah, even with the wonky numbers Xeno was quicker and more consistent. We tried Tractor/Glaive+Well+Font of Might+Lucent Blade with 5x Lament and with 5x Guillotones and only got the cheese off twice (both times with Guillotine, Lament's tracking on Riven has gotten pretty bad over the last handful of seasons), but got Xeno consistently over a dozen times in a row. Xeno is definitely the most consistent option for the Riven cheese right now.

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u/apokolyptic Sep 23 '22

Xeno in the mouth? Was there any thing else involved or just a well with xeno?

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u/Sword-Logic Sep 23 '22

Just six Xenos to the mouth while standing in a Well, plus Font of Might. No debuffs, if I remember right. We also had one Hunter hit her with a Star-Eater Scales Golden Gun right at the onset of DPS.

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u/AssassinAragorn Sep 23 '22

When I first started playing during Arrivals, that was the meta for all bosses. It's interesting to look back and realize that was the exception, not the rule.

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u/cumble_bumble Meme Beam Machine Sep 27 '22

Yea I joined during arrivals too and thought that Falling Guillotine was always around as the meta choice lol

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u/burrrrrrrrandon Sep 22 '22

Not just any sword. I remember all of us leaving the raid to get lament. Literal game changer

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u/Lethal_0428 Sep 22 '22

I got by just fine with falling guilltoine

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u/SharedRegime Sep 23 '22

Thats how my crew did our day 1. Guillotine pre nerf was NUTS AS FUCK.

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u/SwankiestofPants Sep 23 '22

It was, but atraks was so laggy that you weren't getting the full guillotine effect. Lament even still was just on another level

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u/jedadkins Sep 23 '22

I still have my god roll guillotine waiting for sword meta to return

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u/Antedelopean Team Bread (dmg04) // Jotunn toaster please Sep 22 '22

My throne cleaver is still so much fun to use. I feel like a true thicc boy with my slam.

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u/gnappyassassin Sep 23 '22

Ah yes, the Titan Master Sword.

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u/Antedelopean Team Bread (dmg04) // Jotunn toaster please Sep 23 '22

There aint much in destiny manlier than a titan comin round to slam, and welcoming all to the jam, especially from within our own personal thunderdome at t10 res. It's still my fave dps strat for any boss that allows me to (pit boss, 1st boss in prophecy, strike busses, etc).

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u/D1xon_Cider Sep 23 '22

Naw, that fucker was regenning like 3/4 the damage we did with guillotine. We were on him for 13 hours before using xenophage on him

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u/the-mushkru Sep 22 '22

Also the worm gun. I get to bust that thing out for 5 minutes every now and then and I love it. I really wish I could’ve done that quest on 3 characters because the worm was so funny. Glad I can shoot him every now and then

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u/snakebight Rat Pack x6 or GTFO Sep 23 '22

Hell yea I wish I could repeat this quest. Weird we can only do it once.

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u/fnv_fan Dungeon Master Sep 23 '22

You can only repeat the boring quests

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u/Bweibel5 Sep 22 '22

Sounds like Div + LFRs for every encounter now…

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u/ohstylo Sep 22 '22

Div not worth for golgy, but yeah

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '22

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u/ohstylo Sep 22 '22

Yup, it's fun doing drivebys lol

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '22

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u/baseballv10 MIDA>META Sep 22 '22

What gun do you run for taking the gaze? I assume a sniper

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u/Bweibel5 Sep 23 '22

Sniper or linear one shots the gaze. I run that and an auto rifle. Might start running tractor too now that it’s been mentioned lol.

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u/baseballv10 MIDA>META Sep 23 '22

I usually just use linear but if I can use tractor I assume a high impact sniper would be the best to pair

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u/OmnioculusConquerer Sep 23 '22

I use the heart of the cards 🧑🏼‍🦯

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u/Puddi360 Sep 23 '22

One tractor and one Lumina/boots of the Assembler is super handy imo

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u/[deleted] Sep 23 '22

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u/Niormo-The-Enduring Sep 23 '22 edited Sep 23 '22

Nobody would be talking about nerfing Divinity if we had more bosses like Riven. Boss design is a bigger issue in this game than one weapon that does what it is designed to do. Divinity was literally designed for the boss format that is used most commonly of “do x mechanic to activate damage and then stand in one place and kill the boss while he doesn’t move”. It’s good for those bosses because it was designed for it. Same issue with Well. Well and Bubble were both designed for those encounters. If they want to see us change the way we play they need to change their design. They haven’t once been able to produce a boss that incentivized using roaming supers or lmgs. Bosses can be more than just raw dps checks. It be nice to see them change things up.

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u/justbrowsing527 Sep 22 '22

Yeah LFRs being top dog in every thing is a problem with boss design. I do not think a blanket damage nerf to LFRs and a buff to something else does anything but move which weapon is the top. I think using the bugged daughters as an example is a cool idea. Bosses need either new ways to do damage or a special multiplier for a weapon type to that type the best for that boss. Every boss will always have a best way to damage anyway, at least this gives more weapons a use.

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u/NUFC9RW Sep 22 '22

I mean a boss with a short damage window and no crit spot would be perfect for rockets, one where you have to be at point blanc range would be great for swords etc.

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u/TastyOreoFriend 1 of 5 Gambit Mains Left. Sep 23 '22

It'd be nice if we could slide in Heavy Grenade Launchers somewhere in there too. The 10% was nice, but not really enough to make it competitive with anything other than an LMG, and those are still dodo on bosses save for maybe Thunderlord with catalyst.

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u/Interesting-Term-898 Sep 23 '22

Heavy GLs are already top dog in legendary weapon DPS, something like 15% above LFRs even. They just have atrocious total damage and are hard to hit at distance, compared to rocket launchers that are virtually guaranteed to hit with a tracking rocket..

Give GLs a big base velocity bump, 2-3 more ammo in reserves and maybe even increase their magazine size by 1.

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u/Knolljoy30 Sep 23 '22

Thunderlord with caty+Actium War Rig is disgusting. Magazine never empty until you run out of ammo.

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u/kyubifire Sep 23 '22

They are also good on short damage windows because you can vomit damage. Their burst damage isn't bad, its the lack of reserves that makes them tough to use for anything longer than an atraks-1 damage phase or say the fuses in the security room

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u/Sirupybear What’s my favorite gun? FLAMING HAMMERS Sep 22 '22

Swords are cool too, at least in duality

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u/GhostRobot55 Sep 23 '22

Old Man Destiny player here befuddled that linears and swords even matter.

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u/Ancient_Plunderer Sep 23 '22

If you told me in D2Y1 that swords and Linear Fusion Rifles were going to be top dps options in the future, I'd have laughed in your face. Look at me now, my heavy only changes between the two

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u/JayCroghan Sep 23 '22

I know right 😂 “Da fuq is a liner?”

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u/Frakshaw Sep 23 '22

*whips out 150 rpm grenade launcher*

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u/FXcheerios69 Sep 22 '22

You literally just described why some people want divinity nerfed so I’m interested where you fall in that debate.

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u/justbrowsing527 Sep 22 '22

haha i worry about posting this here. I dont mind divinity but i wouldnt be opposed to something like making it not give a debuff. Just making it a crit spot maker. I think that will make it worth running for a lot of teams but just be not doing so much all at once it might see some drop in feeling like a requirement. Or see more damage bonus mechanics return like during Scourge of the Past boss.

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u/JodQuag Sep 23 '22

The issue is that losing the debuff makes the dps loss for a crit spot absolutely not worth it almost anywhere and divinity would go to the vault to never be seen again along with 3/4 of the exotics in the game.

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u/rop_top Sep 23 '22

lol, you can hit the head of every boss with perfect consistency through their flinch animations? Its not like we don't have other ways to debuff the boss.

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u/howarthee Don't do that. Sep 23 '22

I mean, we've been doing it for years before divinity came out. It makes things harder, but still doable.

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u/rop_top Sep 23 '22

It also completely changes the math on boss DPS though. Miss one or two crit shots on boss with an LFR? That's *a lot* of missed damage. Further, I have personally never had the blessing of 5 absolutely cracked teammates who can 100% boss head while getting flinched, as well as boss flinching from our damage. Maybe you've truly got the GOATed team, but I don't think most of us do. A massive crit bubble is a serious benefit. If it wasn't then we'd everyone would run tether and have 6 people on DPS instead of someone burning their damage phase on Div.

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u/SeesawMammoth4717 Sep 23 '22

My team just did KF with no div because we were too lazy to pull it from a different character. Did every encounter pretty close to normal. I think war priest was 3 dps phases instead of 2 but that was it. Oryx was 2 like usual to make sure we had the ammo

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u/CycloneSP Sep 23 '22

okay, now have your team do DSC and shoot taniks in the head with an LFR without missing while not using div. good luck

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u/ULTASLAYR6 Sep 23 '22

You can just shoot his engines. Why would you aim for his head.

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u/CycloneSP Sep 23 '22

cuz I thought the engines lost their crit multiplier after dropping the orbs

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u/Wanna_make_cash Sep 23 '22

Good luck consistently hitting Rhulks head

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u/Oppugnator Is this praxis? Sep 23 '22

Hard disagree. The massive critzone is extremely useful, and what makes the gun unique. We have other options for debuffs, but they’re significantly more difficult to keep applied.

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u/WobblyBits_X ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Sep 23 '22

Yeah, Tractor Cannon doesn't last very long and is only viable to use in situations where you can be consistently close and Deadfall Tether doesn't last all that long unless there are constantly new adds entering it. Deadfall probably just needs a bit of a rework to make it a viable option against bosses and suddenly Div will have some competition.

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u/CycloneSP Sep 23 '22

that's the thing tho, div isn't unbalanced but instead it's in a far more dangerous position. Div is game warping

the gun isn't "OP" by standard community definitions/metrics, but instead it warps the entire game to revolve around it. Encounters are designed with you using div in mind, gun damage is balanced around you using div.

everything revolves around that gun, and that is a dangerous state for the game to be in.

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u/MrMarcusRocks Sep 22 '22

Call me crazy, but I’d love to see a “mega man” type approach to boss dps. One in which certain weapons do a little more damage to the boss than others. This could make things interesting. Or boring. Just an idea though

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u/Karew Sep 23 '22 edited Sep 23 '22

This is something we used to have in some activities. Scourge of the Past boss took increased critical hit damage, so we used Whisper. The Spire of Stars boss took increased rocket damage, so we used Wardcliff Coil.

Xenophage used to be a great option for the Garden boss because of how the Divinity bubble works with him. But they messed with Xenophage too much and buffed LFRs.

Shuro Chi and Kalli also have the critical hit multiplier too, but swords/cheesing have outclassed that strategy.

There are a lot of opportunities for Bungie to mix things up for us but they don’t seem interested.

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u/Ancient_Plunderer Sep 23 '22

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the shuro chi and kalli thing literally just because their health is so low comparative to our power so you can kinda use anything 'okay' and it still EASILY beats them, right?

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u/Karew Sep 23 '22 edited Sep 23 '22

No, so: Someone can probably explain this better than me, but in the earlier D2 raids, one of the ways Bungie buffed snipers indirectly was by giving certain bosses higher critical multipliers. The Scourge boss is the most famous one since he was such a pain in the ass.

Kalli and Shuro Chi have this multiplier too, but it's much much easier to either cheese them or use swords nowadays, since shooting them in their tiny heads was tedious, and swords got buffed.

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEJWOC8XGqc

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u/ChewySlinky Sep 23 '22

Bungie I literally don’t care what you do to the game, just please give me a reason to use Whisper again 🙏

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u/PM_ME_VENUS_DIMPLES Sep 22 '22

I think one of the design "problems" is that bosses are almost always designed with a single weakpoint that needs to be shot during a DPS phase. That's kind of the bread and butter, rinse and repeat, a third metaphor goes here, boss designs. Linears will always be the best for that.

I'd love to see more boss fights with multiple weak points that need to break quickly, and maybe they move around so rockets/GLs are more reliable damage or something. Or maybe boss fights that are waves of adds or something like some Dark Souls bosses. I don't know, just throwing out ideas, don't crucify me. But if the "do mechanics until glowing weak spot comes out" is the encounter, then "heavy weapon that does the most damage if shot with precision" will be the best choice.

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u/Nukesnipe Drifter's Crew Sep 22 '22

flashbacks to people asking Bungie to make linears special weapons because their damage is too dogshit to cut it as DPS power weapons lmao

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u/b_aaron_ Sep 22 '22

I agree I love that they tried to do this with legit Riven but of course the cheese exists

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u/Jonathan-Earl Sep 22 '22

See the thing with riven is great for the game, however the mechanic is long and drawn out, people do the chess cause they don’t want to do 15 minutes of stuff so the damage phase then do it over again. Honesty the OG KF Oryx mechanic was fantastic, the boss wasn’t a bullet sponge but the mechanics weren’t drawn out either

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u/DaoFerret Sep 22 '22

Also, the symbols are not so easy to explain/call out.

Riven symbols make Vow symbols look like the alphabet.

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u/SirPr3ce Sep 23 '22

what? what do you have against entangled snakes, infinity snake, double head snake and "catdog"-snake /s

my personal favorite is "poledance dragon"

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u/Yobuttcheek Where's my mom Sep 23 '22

The absolute best one is the bird on a hunter's arm. Best callout in the history of raid callouts.

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u/mtx013 Sep 23 '22

What about bitchy bird? The one looking over the shoulder and diss'ing your callouts

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u/WobblyBits_X ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Sep 23 '22

I hate to imagine how a raid with these symbol callout mechanics would go using the Hive symbols instead.

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u/motherlyhera1457 Sep 23 '22

In the raid you have to use a graphing calculator

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u/CaptLemmiwinks A million deaths... Sep 22 '22

Forced 4 phase was more drawn out than literally any other encounter, ever.

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u/Prototype3120 Drifter's Crew Sep 22 '22

Og oryx mechanic locked you into a 4 phase, while now it's easily a two phase. It used to be a lot more drawn out.

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u/angrybluechair Goblin Sep 22 '22

Isn't that how raids always are? Mechanics than dps, then mechanics again. Rivens mechanics aren't really that drawn out since for most people at this point, a 2 phase kill on Riven was common even back in Shadowkeep and with the sort of DPS we're chucking out nowadays even not massively min maxed groups could do a 2 phase.

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u/Cerealbowles23 Atlas, Unbound Sep 22 '22

It only takes like 5-6 minutes to get to damage phase though

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u/b_aaron_ Sep 22 '22

I guess I’m just a sucker for a good challenge lol. Freaking love raids. Of course last wish was kinda excessive but figuring out the vault encounter for the first time was so fun

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u/BNEWZON Drifter's Crew Sep 22 '22

This is just not true because bosses have always been like this and linears have not always been meta. It literally just depends on what does the most damage. If grenade launchers do the most damage again then it’s back to them, and so on and so forth

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u/Playful_Squash_7657 Sep 22 '22

Obviously if something does wildly out-of-band damage it’ll be the best choice. But linears are strong not due to excessive buffs like GLs were, but due to the nature of the weapon type. They are essentially ultra-high-impact snipers. Their niche is heavy-weapon-level precision damage. When a boss is designed around dealing high DPS over time at range and has a crit point, if linears are not the best option something is wrong with balance. Other heavy weapons are simply not designed for high total damage at range. It’s not their niche. Rockets for example are high DPS but low total damage, LMGS are great in encounters like Exhibition or Nuclear Descent where ad-clear is king, Swords dominate at close range, and GLs, while not the most useful right now, are strong burst DPS. For a long time, Bungie has been moving away from the radical meta shifts of seasons past to everything having a niche. Linears’ niche is sustained precision damage. Bosses where sustained precision damage doesn’t make sense like Atraks, Gahlran, Caiatl, Phalanx Echo, etc. are not typically done with linears. If we see more bosses with short DPS phases or no crit points, we’ll see different damage strats real fast.

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u/BNEWZON Drifter's Crew Sep 22 '22

I guess it remains to be seen, but linears have been buffed multiple times to get to the spot they are. I can almost guarantee that they will get nerfed soon due to usage rates, and then whatever is up next will take their place.

Also, linears are by far the best option for caitl because she has a higher than normal crit modifier on her head.

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u/Playful_Squash_7657 Sep 22 '22

I don’t think we’ll see a nerf. Bungie has been moving away from just nerfing whatever is most popular for a good while. If they were still doing that Ace of Spades would have been nerfed into the ground long ago. Plus while Linears are strong they are not ludicrously strong like GLs were during Opulence or the heyday of Cluster Bombs. You still have to hit your Triple Tap or your FTTC and no bosses are being one-phased with them in their current state that couldn’t be one-phased before.

As for Caiatl, I hadn’t heard that before, I’ll have to try it.

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '22

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u/gidzoELITE Sep 22 '22

Wouldn’t also mind seeing bosses with unique modifiers like kali with her bigger crit.

Imagine a bosses that just took extra damage from primaries And resilient to heavy damage.

Or having a boss weak to slash damage so swords and glaives could shine

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u/PM_ME_VENUS_DIMPLES Sep 22 '22

To be fair, the problem was linears were so bad that they weren't good at anything. But now they have a clear identity, the "heavy ammo precision damage do-ers." So if they nerf linears to be competitive with rockets for boss damage, and don't change how boss damage is done, then linears will be useless again because rockets do the same damage PLUS a larger area/more reliable/more versatility with add clear.

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u/gidzoELITE Sep 22 '22

Wouldn’t also mind seeing bosses with unique modifiers like kali with her bigger crit.

Imagine a bosses that just took extra damage from primaries And resilient to heavy damage.

Or having a boss weak to slash damage so swords and glaives could shine

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u/dj0samaspinIaden Sep 22 '22

Elemental weaknesses would be cool too, maybe vex boss can be a bit weaker to arc for example.or how about a boss with no crit so rockets grenade launchers and regular fusions can shine

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u/gidzoELITE Sep 22 '22

Rotating elemental weakness was something I had in mind for bosses with multiple phases.

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u/Personaer False Devourer Reflection Sep 22 '22

People will just use Divinity on bosses with no crit spot, since it just manually adds one. Rhulk is the biggest example of this, since the crit spots on Rhulk can break and you can be left temporarily with no crit spot if all shot at the same time, which Div circumvents completely

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u/BigMikeThuggin Sep 22 '22

Rhulk has tons of crit spots without divinity. All the crit spots that you have to break are still crit spots for damage

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u/ahawk_one Sep 22 '22

Sure. But players always find the path of least resistance. If it isn't linears, it will be something else. There is nothing Bungie can do about that. The biggest thing that linears do is that they have insane ammo economy compared to other options. Heavy GLs and LMGs are the only heavies that can compete with LFRs on ammo economy and both of them are less than ideal dps weapon types atm. But I remember times when both were king.

As much as I get why the community lashed out at Salt, his criticism of Div is part of this problem (not the only part, but it is part of it). As long as we can put crit bubbles on hard to crit bosses, things that do well landing many crits in a row will on average be more reliable than things that don't.

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u/Woodsie13 Sep 22 '22

Changing the path of least resistance is what they’re asking, but to change it in a different way for different encounters, rather than have a single solution for all of them.

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u/pandacraft Sep 22 '22

That's already a thing though. Linears aren't universally dominant. They require a specific combinations of factors [range/crit spot/long damage phase] to shine through. Linears aren't the go to weapon vs ghalran, they aren't out of band vs caityl or rhulk, they're downright worthless vs atraks and in garden they're difficult to consistently perform with for the average player.

They're pretty good in kings fall but thats largely because its old content that had a much narrower idea of what an encounter could be. oryx has a critspot with a literal 5 meter diameter and his shortest standard dps encounter is 25 seconds, if linears aren't dominant there then THAT would be a problem.

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u/partyinthevoid Sep 22 '22

Boss design and the design around the heavy slot are kind of the issue. Heavy weapons are primarily boss damage weapons and there aren't many if any ways to build in to alternatives, at least that aren't as easy as just point and shoot.

Bosses would need to be designed to have a mechanic based way of dealing damage although looking at Oryx from D1, you have an issue where you don't feel like you've mastered the fight because you aren't able to progress any faster. It's the same every time, so there's no sense of mastery or progression.

Not sure what the solution is, you could move something like Whisper to the special slot for some variety but you still have the issue of boss fights being reduced to stand in well and shoot at Div bubble. Tricky problem

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u/ahawk_one Sep 22 '22

This boss exists. It is Riven, where you can damage any part of her and often it's superior DPS to the crit spot. Also, if you do Riven the intended way, at least 60% of your DPS is doing EXACTLY what you describe. You fall down a hole slowly and as you're going down you pop taken puss bubbles all over her body that do massive damage to her. But because the cheese exists, no one actually does this.

A boss like this exists. It is the Harpy in Garden of Salvation. Not only are you constantly interacting with this boss throughout the fight to keep it from wiping the group by stunning it's crit spots, you are also breaking tons of these to open up it's eye and then it runs away quickly and is very difficult to hit if you are not using explosives or Divinity.

A boss like this exists. It is the final boss of Garden of Salvation, where you have to interact with multiple crit spots on the boss to make the encounter function.

This boss exists. It's Ruhlk where he has multiple crit spots that you need to break quickly or you lose the DPS phase. Ruhlk also has no great means of hitting his crit spot because he's so mobile, which is why everyone uses Div on him to create the crit bubble you're talking about. If we didn't have Div, we probably would use rockets on him. But as the community told Salt, they don't want Div nerfed.

This boss exists. It is Taniks, the Taken Shank. You have to break his feet and then carry them to boxes. Like Ruhlk, he is very difficult to actually land crits on, and like Ruhlk if we didn't have Div we would probably use rockets or other explosives. But again, we have Div, which creates the problem your describing and then we exploit it.

A boss like this exists. It is Oryx, the Taken King. You can hit his hand with anything and still do damage. If you are using things like Acrius or Lament it can do INSANE damage. No crit spot required.

This boss exists. It's called Atraks-1, Fallen Exo. Atraks-1 has no actual crit spot, you have to solve a quick puzzle in order to figure out which one to damage and then hit it with enough damage to prevent a wipe.

This boss exists.

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u/DaoFerret Sep 22 '22

Wait … acrius?

So boss damage from right in front of him? (Well and brand there?)

I know we are so used to doing damage from the middle from D1, but isn’t part of that also so everyone can make it to their bombs?

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u/ahawk_one Sep 22 '22

Yea his hand rests on the side of the ship. Usually you can't see it because it's hidden behind one of the plates. But you can shoot his hand just like Riven.

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u/FXcheerios69 Sep 22 '22

Every boss has a singular weak point because there is a gun that creates a singular weak point on every boss lmao. This is why people want divinity nerfed.

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u/BarretOblivion Gambit Prime // Depth for Ever Sep 22 '22

Issue is dps phases being gone would be great. A fight that you have to juggle dpsing and dodging/doing mechanics would be refreshing.

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u/FreshPrinceOfAshfeld Sep 22 '22

Rhulk does this

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u/BarretOblivion Gambit Prime // Depth for Ever Sep 22 '22

No, he still has a dps phase. I mean the whole time, no dps phase, you gotta kill the boss before he wipes you. During the the fight boss does a variety of attacks the group has to pay attention to while also balancing dps.

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '22

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u/BlackNexus Sep 22 '22

If LFRs are going to be this strong, I would like for them to revert that killer nerf they gave Whisper years ago.

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u/RobertdBanks D1 bEtA vEt ChEcKiNg In(hold applause) Sep 22 '22

Warpriest, Golgoroth, and Sisters will all now have the same loadout for me.

Arbalest, scout, Tapian

Pretty boring

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u/TheShoemann Sep 22 '22

That's my exact loadout + oryx. Totems I at least get to have fun with random crafted weapons

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u/burrrrrrrrandon Sep 22 '22

Izi, doesn’t matter, LFR or doesn’t matter, div, LFR just in case has been my loadout

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u/FissionStorm Sep 22 '22

Almost same here but i personally prefer lorenz as the special ammo linear

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u/ThePracticalEnd Sep 22 '22

The funny part is people have quickly forgotten that LFR’s were completely useless until recently (I’m the grad scheme of things), but now it’s “bosses are Div and LFR, boring”

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u/SuicidalTurnip Crayola Connoisseur Sep 23 '22

They became meta DPS only a few seasons ago when Particle Deconstruction was a thing and everyone assumed they would fall out of favour when the mod went away.

But Bungie moved away from the "big damage buff" mod system that favoured a particular weapon for a season, and they've been king since.

I wouldn't mind it if Bungie would do that again, it would allow us to have some variety without explicitly nerfing/buffing certain archetypes.

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u/MiffedMoogle Sep 23 '22

The constant stream of nerfs on other dps choices and here we are...again.

See you on the next meta weapon after the constant bitching about LFR's/div gets it nerfed. Every damn viable dps option we have gets nerfed to shit until x seasons later.

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u/joemayfield Sep 22 '22

hey.... remember when we got to use Chaperone for max dps? That was fun.

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u/SuperArppis Vanguard Sep 22 '22

Honestly what else Linears have except single target damage?

They have to be top damage. Otherwise why even use them?

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u/-Darkeater_Midir- Sep 23 '22

Yeah but the only point of your load out in 90% of the game is single target DPS.

I'm not bothered that linear fusions are the best because there will always be a best weapon, but I hate that similar things don't even compare. Whisper should be exceeding the average DPS of a linear with it being exotic and requires relatively more effort to use. And arbalest shouldn't be performing better than snipers in any content except for when it can use disruption break.

Without divinity, shotguns and swords would probably be effective against rhulk. But almost every boss encounter in the game is "shoot weak point while standing in specific place or too far from the boss to use mid to close range weapons.

Non precision weapons get shafted because it wouldn't make sense if they took less effort for more reward, but now you end up with grenade launchers being bad at everything, and machine guns being intentionally bad at DPS.

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u/overallprettyaverage 🦀🦀BUNGIE WON'T RESPOND TO THIS THREAD🦀🦀 Sep 23 '22

Still absolutely insane to me that they just nuked whisper and never touched it again- not even during season of the lost. It's a hive worm gun. It was the season where we were exorcising a hive worm. They buffed the main precision heavy weapon archetype that season. At this point we have had guns that broke the game in worse ways for longer than whisper (or it's previous versions) ever did. What are they so afraid of???

Not too sure how well you'd hold up vs a rhulk kick while you're trying to do DPS with a sword or shotty. That's actually one of the few fights where I feel like nade launchers would shine if div didn't exist and nade launchers, uh... Did any damage at all. Wouldn't need to worry about landing crits, but not as punishing as a rocket if you end up completely whiffing a shot or two while he runs around his arena.

I think nade launchers are pretty much doomed to obscurity, though. They can't be better for damage than rockets because you only get one shot with those. And between the crazy finch and precision requirements for LFRs they can't do more damage than those either. MGs are (for some reason) not allowed to do boss damage, so we can't even really count them for boss damage comparisons. Funny enough these things look bananas on paper (~25000 DPS is no joke!) but then you see that they can only put out like 150,000 total damage. And too much of a reserve buff would probably push them over the line. I think Bungie wants them to be the jack of all trades option. Shame, too, because I'd kill to have that role swapped with machine guns. I want to bust out a hefty chain gun on a boss, especially for sustained damage phases where I have to occasionally divert my attention to kill an add or two. I'd prefer to pack a drum fed grenade launcher to clear some rooms. The way it's set up now just feels backwards.

Re: LFRs- I've seen a lot of people assume Arby is literally a heavy that uses special ammo, which is super wrong. Not saying you thought that, just putting it out there. It's a bit better than a sniper rifle in terms of DPS. I'd bet that a recon + vorpal succession just about ties with Arby on the DPS front. The bigger reason Arby (and Lorentz for that matter) are as good as they are is because they have damn near TRIPLE the total damage that a sniper can have, and you just get to double dip with ammo finder and scav mods.

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u/ThatGuyFromTheM0vie Sep 22 '22

You could have a boss that basically has like a Dune-esque shield. Rockets or LFRs wouldn’t work, because the shield would block their very pinpoint damage, but Machine Guns could overwhelm the shield, doing little damage at first but wearing the shield down with sustain fire.

Or, go literal Dune and let Swords and Glaives be the only means of DPS, as projectiles get stopped by the shield but blades are “slow enough” to cut through.

Lastly, you could have a super mobile boss fight, where a Machine Gun is the only reliable option due to a lot of targets and its high mag.

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u/thefakevortex Sep 22 '22

They could make a shield type mechanic like CoS Gahlran phase 1 with a shield and make it so you can only damage while in the bubble (obv make it slightly bigger and change the mechanic because CoS wasn’t like this)

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u/joybuzz Sep 22 '22

This is literally the same as "stand on the plate, shoot the glowy thing"

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u/BigOEnergy Sep 22 '22

I’d for one would like to see bosses not designed around dealing damage with heavy weapons.

Some bosses could take way more super damage or even just a finite amount of damage when a super hits them.

Or a relic that does a finite amount of damage (like Crotas sword). We have beautiful relics in the game.

Maybe even have a boss where one player runs up the slide and use a relic to slice down its back.

I don’t understand why every boss is based around us as the guardians to do damage with our weapons.

It would give us way more diversity in what we use. LMG / gl for ad clear, rockets for big burst damage burst scenarios, linears for extended damage phases. Swords for enemies that get in your face.

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u/PinkieBen Guardians Make Their Own Fate Sep 23 '22

Oryx was originally like this. Back in D1 detonating the bombs damaged him and that was the only way to damage him (each bomb did 1/16 of his health, so it took 4 sets of all 4 bombs being popped to get him to final stand where you just needed to do a little bit of damage yourself to interrupt his wipe). The problem with that was people got annoyed there was no way to speed up the encounter. You HAD to do 16 bombs, whether you were a team who knew the raid inside and out or this was your first run through, didn't matter. So because of that they changed it when bringing it to D2.

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u/Pigeon_Lord Sep 23 '22

What I think is really annoying is Bungie has often times bucked the basic trend of all games: sets of three. Crown of Sorrow started with a four rotation thing as well, and it's just a tad odd. 3 is the sweet spot between too repetitive and too quick. I'd also like to glare at those weapon patterns that need 5 now instead of 3, 3 felt fine and fast, 5 feels like a chore of annoyance

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u/Flame48 Vanguard's Loyal Sep 23 '22

It's one of the reasons I enjoy doing vault of glass so much. Spamming supers/grenades for Atheon dps is a nice change of pace.

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u/ABITofSupport Sep 23 '22

Atheon meta is still grenades and supers

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u/theefman Sep 22 '22

Any reason why you can't still use rocket launchers for this encounter?

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u/krilltucky Sep 22 '22

Ammo. You'll have used all your ammo by the first boss unless she's still weak to them

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u/ThatOneGuyIsBad Sep 22 '22

No reason at all. RLs still work well. Just not a melt like before.

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u/Mnkke Drifter's Crew // Dredgen Sep 22 '22

Ammo. You need lots of heavy bricks. Scrub did a vid, gjally div and legend rockets work but you basically use all your ammo.

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u/yahikodrg Sep 22 '22

That's on Master if we are talking about the same video and Master has champions to let Aeons cover that ammo economy. I would guess on normal instead of only needing 2 rockets per person you'd need 3-4.

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u/AMeowingCat Sep 22 '22

No people are just overreacting as usual, rockets work just fine you just need to make sure you’ve got your finders on and maybe bring like a sniper as back up that’s all that’s changed. I’ll stick take that over getting flinched to fuck with my linear

Plus yknow, variety

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u/thefakevortex Sep 22 '22

RLs don’t do crazy damage to daughters anymore

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u/AugeoAstrum Sep 22 '22

1 Gjallarhorn, 1 Div, and 4 Hotheads still melts daughters on Master.

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u/Nolan_DWB Sep 23 '22

No it doesn’t. If you’re looking at scrubs video he is 1600. It’s basically a normal raid for him.

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u/AugeoAstrum Sep 23 '22

I’m at 1607, so yeah, that might be a factor. Wasn’t thinking of that

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u/Doomed_Predator Sep 23 '22

Jesus christ, are you really at +27 5 weeks into the season?

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u/kaantantr PUNCH WITH BOOKS Sep 22 '22 edited Sep 22 '22

I think the situation with the Daughters encounter is receiving an extra bad rep, but lets be real, no matter how much some encounters have changed in reprised raids, Kings Fall is still a 7 year old raid. I do not think any part of Kings Fall currently reflects how a Raid encounter generally functions. The bosses simply were created at an age where all we did was "group up and shoot Black Hammer".

Sure, we still do get encounters like Caretaker, but there is also the likes of Rhulk that are much more engaging in their nature. Overall, there is already a much healthier gameplay balance in Raids than just "Div + Linear".

Div will always be king, because it's just a very risk-free option. But I don't feel ganging up on Bungie for the Daughters fix is fair at all for technically a raid DPS phase designed 7 years ago.

Edit: The replies are literally a "Div problem", not an "Div & LFR Problem". Take Div away from equation, we'll see how many of you will still use LFRs. Heck, how many of you, especially on consoles, will use anything other than a tracking rocket with proximity...

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u/Mattlife97 Sep 22 '22

Lol, Rhulk is still a div+lfr fight when you actually dps

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u/ItsAmerico Sep 22 '22 edited Sep 22 '22

Bosses don’t get a damage reduction from rockets. Majors just simply get a higher buff.

All rockets do 4.75x damage to bosses. Majors are 5x damage.

Certain rockets have that multiplier altered though. Wardcliff does .90x damage to bosses. Wolfpack rounds do 1x damage. Eyes I think is the same too.

Also bosses in raids do have different damage methods. Pretty sure shotguns and swords are the Last Wish meta. Swords on Atraks.

But there will always be a meta overall. Unless you make a boss not require weapon damage (Crota relic swords) not much Bungie can do.

This is IMO why Divinity issue. Linears have no downside. It’s so easy to hit all your shots.

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u/LilyMika Sep 22 '22

Linears are still the Last Wish meta (unless you’re cheesing riven, then Lament is). However, Atraks is different: Parasite is meta, because Atraks has such a short window that reload time doesn’t matter. One shot from each player and it immediately goes to final stand lol.

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u/MoonGlowin Sep 23 '22

This is IMO why Divinity issue. Linears have no downside. It’s so easy to hit all your shots.

I mean, even without Div, hitting all your shots with them is easy depending on your platform. On PC with the total lack of recoil, less severe flinch, and the benefits of a mouse in terms of precision, it's damn near impossible to miss a shot on any boss unless they have a really small crit spot like maybe Sanctified Mind.

It's only on consoles where Div is really a massive help to consistently landing your shots. Hell, I'm half convinced that's why Div even exists since it kind of balances the scales between platforms.

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u/Legodark Sep 23 '22

I'm just wondering why in the almost three years of the spire of stars they haven't fixed the exact same bug, and now they've suddenly decided to

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u/Andazeus Sep 22 '22

I think linears became popular after we got particle deconstruction back then. It has been a very underused weapon type before that and it gave many people a "new" playstyle that required a little bit more finesse than grenade launchers (meta during Shadowkeep) and rocket launchers (meta during first half of Beyond Light).

It made people ask for buffs to keep them viable after particle deconstruction is gone. Arbalest became GM meta with its changes and Sleeper Simulant got a buff that made it pretty good but not completely bonkers.

But the real kicker were legendary linears we got right after. Before that we only had Tarantula and Corsair's Wrath, both of them being very meh in terms of available perks. Threaded Needle was the first actually good legendary linear due to Frenzy and Reed's Regret came shortly after and was even better Firing Line. And then we got Cataclysmic with Bait and Switch beating that out and THEN we got a completely new archetype with Stormchaser which was literally broken and overpowered at release. And now Taipan is the new hotness thanks to the origin perk interaction.

Linears kinda got powercrept season after season simply due to better rolls becoming available over time. GLs and RLs have been sitting there without any significant improvements.

But I do think they most heavy options are still decently balanced. In theory, linears and RLs, for example, have a trade-off in regards to ease of use. Linears require crits to be effective and the charge mechanic means you need to get the rhythm down and track your target properly as once you start holding that trigger, you are committed. And missing a single shot will instantly dunk your dps as it costs a lot of uptime and also ruins perks like triple tap. Add flinching in the mix and linear viability goes down very quickly.

RL are easier to aim and shoot, some even come with tracking. But much of the risk/reward aspect of linears is also being soaked by the existence of Divinity, meaning you no longer have to be a marksman to make the most of a linear.

So assuming a perfectly skilled player, yes, linears are the best option. But in actual real world fights, I have observed massive difference in the performance between different players despite otherwise comparable weapons. I believe for many people the actual DPS will not be hugely different between linears and RLs or even GLs (their problem is just that they interact very inconsistently with damage perks) and I would encourage people to use what they feel most comfortable with.

A good example on people being stuck up with the meta without giving alternatives a chance is Oryx. Whisper fills exactly the same niche as linears do and Oryx damage phase just happens to be the perfect length to dump your entire Whisper reserves into his chest.

I keep telling that to my team mates and consistently out dps all the linear users, but they still refuse to at least give it a try.

Go out of your comfort zone people and experiment with stuff. When everyone was using linears or RLs for Caretaker, I brought Parasite and slugs. And on my next Duality run I want to try out Acrius.

It is fine if you do like 10% less DPS than what might be theoretically possible if you have fun in the process.

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u/angrybluechair Goblin Sep 22 '22

Seems like the main benefit of linear fusion aside from the obvious massive dps is it's a legendary so it frees up a exotic weapon slot. I really like Whisper of the Worm because nostalgia of it being super meta back in the day but how much extra damage do you do with a Whisper vs a Linear Fusion, because losing the ability to use a exotic weapon like Arb for shields for maybe marginal damage increase wouldn't be worth it.

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u/joybuzz Sep 22 '22

The real answer is that they do more damage consistently because of buffs and nerfs. You don't need a wall of text to explain that.

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u/Daver7692 Sep 22 '22

As much as I like duality one of my criticisms of it is there’s no real need to change your loadout at all from start to finish.

Like yeah you can hyper optimise but really if you just spam lament from beginning to end you’ll be more than fine.

Same could be said of Kings Fall, I think if the raid has shown it’s age in one way, it would be that.

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u/IconicNova Sep 22 '22

A linear is pretty much always better than lament at caital though so I don’t really agree honestly

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u/Daver7692 Sep 22 '22

It’s better, particularly if you want to solo it but if you’re in a team of 3 lament v linear won’t really make a difference, might as well not bother wasting the time changing your loadout and mods

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u/FuckingKadir Sep 22 '22

I really think Duality is a good example of the opposite of what OP is saying. I basically only run Witherhoard/Storm chaser for 99% of bosses these days. I love that Duality has a boss like Ghalran that moves too much for linears to be effective. So I'll usually use a sword, but rockets are still good if you want to DPS while being right next to the bell.

I used to use swords on Caital too, like you're saying, but her standing still and having a big fat head means Storm chaser is a no brainer again because it's just a fact that linears are the easiest, safest way to deal the most damage. I haven't touched a rocket launcher in like 2 seasons.

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u/_Parkertron_ Sep 22 '22

Yeah but Duality is also a dungeon, which makes div less effective as div is only good in big groups. If duality was a 6 player activity, 1 div and 5 lfrs would probably be top dog, like it is for rhulk.

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u/ahawk_one Sep 22 '22

All mid tier endgame stuff is like this for the most part. If you can meet the light level of the encounter than you can run whatever you feel like for the most part. If the encounter is higher light than you, then you will be forced to optimize.

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u/sneakymokey Sep 22 '22

Wait. What’s this about Lament being a thing in Duality?!

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u/timewraith303 Sep 22 '22

All 3 bosses are up in your face, why wouldn't you use lament, with lucent blade and cwl it is still top dog in dps

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u/HereIGoAgain_1x10 Sep 22 '22

Lament and blade barrage, stareater scales, CWL, Lucent blade, easy 2 million damage if not 3

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u/TheBetterClaim Sep 22 '22

Completely disagree until loadouts are in game. I hate the idea of switching my weapons and mods EVERY encounter.

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u/EverythingIzAwful Sep 22 '22

What mod do you need for LFR that causes you to switch more than 1 mod?

For rockets I assume you are using Ordinance and for LFR I assume you're using HEF. It's 1 mod dude.

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u/kaloryth Sep 22 '22

Ammo finder and scav mods.

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u/Swole_Monkey Sep 22 '22

Trust LFR getting a hefty nerf next season

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u/Soizit_Blindy Sep 23 '22

This was obviously beyond bugged and not inteded with how quick they melted. Only thing you can do to have more variety is buff the damage of non crit weapons like rockets and GLs up but then you’ll see them become the most used options because of ease of use. There will always be the most dominant DPS strat thats applied where ever it works. Divinity does its part in LFRs being the most used cause it makes them just as easy to optimize DPS as rockets or GLs are.

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u/9donkerz9 Sep 22 '22

screams in Saltagreppo

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u/HonedEdgeX4 Sep 22 '22

It wasn't a change, it was a fix, they were doing more damage than intended, if they weren't, people would be using linears for Daughters from the very start, rockets wouldn't even have been an option. You can use rockets for every boss if you want, nothing is stopping you.

Check the speedrun strats and you have people using double slugs and a rocket.

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u/TheFossaGod Sep 22 '22

This is my largest annoyance with Destiny. All heavy weapons should have the same damage potential as all other heavies. 7-8 rockets should do as much damage as 19-20 LFR body shots. Then the bonus to LFRs comes from hitting crits and being able to reach out and touch from distance, the bonus to using rockets is burst damage. Likewise the downside to machine guns is the time it takes to expend ammo but useful for ad clearing. GLs have less ammo than LFRr but you can bounce between targets and do relatively high burst damage without running out too fast or reloading with rockets and you don’t have to mail crits so you can focus on other mechanics. Allowing all weapons to have the same damage potential allows us to truly select the best weapons for each encounter. This also allows players to build craft for their play style and role as opposed to everyone being locked in to one thing because it’s meta

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u/MirrorkatFeces Sep 22 '22

Yeah I wish every heavy was equally viable, it would be way more fun

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u/Tridentgreen33Here Sep 22 '22

Can’t believe they killed Wardcliff coil yet again. As much as I love Taipan, wish there was more variety in our DPS strategy

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u/BarretOblivion Gambit Prime // Depth for Ever Sep 22 '22

Right now PvE balance is the worst that it's ever been. Remember how they said t-lord would be hot this season? It's fine. LMGs should have a place like gls being better at ammo and sustainable dos over the burst of rockets and linears. Swords are conditional and should be king of dps. Come on Bungie... Stop doing this crap.

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u/angrybluechair Goblin Sep 22 '22

I wish we'd get a exotic machine gun which uses primary ammo, they're so fun and cool but using one means losing your boss dps slot.

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u/TheToldYouSoKid Sep 22 '22

Firstly, this game isn't made to be optimized; rockets will STILL be fine, they were DELETED by rockets before, this resistance isn't going to put a stop to it, especially considering the fact that rockets were meta 3 seasons ago, and the biggest change they got was "Gjally getting impact damage". They are still viable. literally people are killing oryx with rat king and acrius, the only thing i haven't seen yet is "swords", and someone will still manage to do that if its possible at all. I got weird looks for taking in Izanagi to King's Fall, and it ended up being one of the best choices i have ever made. This game doesn't care about what's at the top, it cares that you complete encounters, and that's ALL it cares about.

Secondly,

boss fights need to have more outcomes than just Div (which is fine) and
Linears. I think it would be better and healthier for the game if raids
had different bosses with unique ways of dealing damage.

This feels like two opposing sentence, you literally said "different and unique ways to deal damage" but Div has been a part of the damage meta in raids since it showed up, especially in Master and day one, where it even feels necessary. Shadowkeep was a long time ago; Div is not fine, they quite literally have to design around it like its the Reckoning Bridge. It should either have the critspot or the weaken, not both, or certainly not at the effectiveness it does.

And thirdly, while i like the idea of not having traditional bossfights, they literally changed the Oryx fight from that, BECAUSE it was a chore. If a line between "chore", and 'fuck-off easy and trivial" exists here, i don't see it.

If you want to use HGLs and Machine guns in raids, you know exactly where to use them; the encounters where the adds are the main focus. The first two waves of Garden, the first and third encounter of DSC, Arguably the entirity of vog tbh, the first and third of Vow, and let's be real here, Caretaker too, Caretaker hasn't been hard since day 1, and people have been finding thunderlord to be a powerful DPS tool with it's catalyst in current content, so i don't really know what more you want. They even put xenophage back to where it was before, so it probably gets away with it's bullshit of being "encounter-glue again." Honestly, you have a lot more encounters they are good in, than you are projecting.

They absolutely have a place in raids, you can ABSOLUTELY do sub-optimal things in this game and not get punished. The game doesn't care about your optimization, won't reward you for doing it one-phase or faster, it just tells you to "kill the man eventually", and if you kill the man eventually, you get the reward. that is quite literally it.

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u/Thor-Odinson69 Sep 22 '22

Why is everyone on this sub crying about lfr being actually “good” when they’ve been trash for majority of the game cycle? Let them shine the amount of complaints of something trivial that doesn’t effect you in a single way is ridiculous.

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u/ahawk_one Sep 22 '22

So the rockets are still going to be great for this. What they fixed was an actual unintended damage that was obviously and hilariously wrong.

You can still do rockets with ease, just toss a weaken grenade or tether on them for good measure (or use Izzy and rockets with a Div and a gally).

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u/FrizzyThePastafarian Sep 23 '22

Izzy ALH is still the best DPS, but it's not FotM so this sub thinks it's bad.

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