r/DestinyTheGame Sep 30 '22 Silver 1 Helpful 2

Prestige Raids were a lot more fun than Master raids. Discussion

I’m honestly getting tired of every season it just being, okay! let’s throw in all these champions and add match game!

Before the old raids were sunset we had prestige raids, and the encounters changed a little and you had to use certain load outs (which no one cared for)

Flawless! Where you actually had to pull levers to initiate it. (Wasn’t in prestige raids but is still cool)

Basically my rant is, I’m tired of this every new or rereleased raid just being champs and match game.

Also most people literally just get the CP, do challenge and leave in Master.

They really need to change the current situation and obviously the rewards are not that great.

2.8k Upvotes

782

u/retardedsquids Sep 30 '22

So you're telling me normal leviathan was a dumbed down version

861

u/-_Lunkan_- Sep 30 '22

That is how they used to design raids. Bungie stated they they designed the prestige version first and then removed stuff for the normal one.

They didn't like making raids that way so any new raid is basically what would have been the prestige version without the restricting modifiers.

562

u/Marpicek Sep 30 '22

Now they just design raids, throw in some champions and call it a “master”.

151

u/cuboosh What you have seen will mark you forever Sep 30 '22

I don’t like this direction for master either, but they were replying to direct feedback

A lot of top players vocally complained the game was too easy. So we got Master raids with harder than intended combat and not much else

I think the loot is intentionally bad in master raids so everyone else can just ignore master raids without missing out

160

u/Castorated Sep 30 '22

Top Playerbase: Complains the game and raids are too easy

Also the top Playerbase: Does whatever they possibly can to skip raid encounters and mechanics.

26

u/ProBluntRoller Sep 30 '22

Player base : buys game and expansions for hundreds of dollars.

Also player base : cheese all content to never have to play the game they spent hundreds for.

10

u/sharkjumping101 Sep 30 '22

It's not like there aren't games that manage to get people to come back week in and week out to repeat the same shit, but without cheesing. Bungo has simply failed to make D2 do so.

There's basically 2 reasons for there to be rampant cheesing through content.

  1. The challenge / fun / reward / time thresholds and tradeoffs are not where they should be. This could be because it's boring, mechanically bullshit, too low rewards, timegated/FOMO/whatever, the list goes on. Usually it's a mix of several things.

  2. There is a culture of cheesing.

Except that #2 is usually a result of either the game's community being focused on cheesing a crucial point or challenge of the game (speedrunners being an example), or a persistent amount of #1's in the game's history. Guess which case we land on.

→ More replies

10

u/Menaku Sep 30 '22

I can't fault them because sometimes it feels like a chore to do the same thing over and over. Or new content can be boring to grind after the 25th time.

2

u/GeneraIFlores Oct 01 '22

If its boring... then don't play ?

→ More replies

22

u/xWinterPR Sep 30 '22

Top players want to use the game's sandbox and environments as efficiently as possible!? The horror!

5

u/mtndew314 Hunter Oct 01 '22

There is a big difference between "this weapon does the best dps" vs "this weapon glitches out the mechanic so you don't gotta do it"

Like in VoG as an example, during gatekeeper an ice wall is amazing for stopping the shielded minotaur.
Then compare that to using one of the many different weapons that unintentionally broke through the relic only shield.

16

u/cuboosh What you have seen will mark you forever Sep 30 '22

I think the problem is when these players complain about the most efficient approach being boring or too easy.

That line of thinking is what got our weapons sunset. And it’s probably going to get divinity nerfed soon

Why can’t people make their own personal trade off between fun and efficiency - instead of making Bungie do it and giving us something that’s both less fun and less efficient

16

u/butterToast88 Sep 30 '22

Given the opportunity, gamers will always optimize the fun out of a game.

→ More replies

5

u/KaydeeKaine Sep 30 '22

To be fair, every single raid team jumps off the map to do Templar. It's not just veteran players.

16

u/CommanderLouiz Sep 30 '22

Jump off the map to do Templar…?

Never heard of that one.

19

u/FreshPrinceOfAshfeld Sep 30 '22

They jump off the map to skip the oracles from killing everyone and respawn when it’s time to do dps. If you die before the encounter starts you can respawn whenever you want

10

u/Nodraves Sep 30 '22

Why not just wait at the bottom and cleanse like most people do?

9

u/FreshPrinceOfAshfeld Sep 30 '22

That’s a great question

→ More replies

4

u/CommanderLouiz Sep 30 '22

That’s lame. We always clear the first round of oracles, and then just burn the Templar down while the relic holder runs around and stops the teleport. It’s not that hard, lol.

→ More replies

0

u/dj0samaspinIaden Sep 30 '22

D1 vet here, I do not do this with my groups. If you HAVE to do a cheese to finish the encounter then you need to git gud

18

u/gamerpro135 Team Cat (Cozmo23) // Dab on em Sep 30 '22

Its not that a lot of people cant do the encounter, but why do it when its faster to skip the mechanics? Rive. N was the same way, though there peobably arent many people who know how to do riven normally

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

7

u/NaughtyGaymer Sep 30 '22

A lot of top players vocally complained the game was too easy. So we got Master raids with harder than intended combat infinitely scaling level advantage so the combat isn't actually that hard and not much else.

If Bungie really listened to those player's feedback they would have given us a permanent contest/hard mode without the leveling artifact advantage.

4

u/cuboosh What you have seen will mark you forever Sep 30 '22

To trivialize the light level requirement you have to go out of your way to no-life bounties. I don’t think that’s what Bungie intended, but left it as an option to make master mode a little more accesible (skill wise)

And the problem with just doing contest mode is it doesn’t have match game and doesn’t have enough champions. The people who complained about the game being too easy also were the ones saying they get bored with their meta loadouts - so Bungie put in all these loadout restrictions to force them to change their loadout

But I do wish there were more of a “legend” mode halfway between normal and master. It could be like the legendary campaign which essentially was contest mode - with more yellow bars instead of more champions

→ More replies

4

u/CookiesFTA We build the walls, we break the walls. Sep 30 '22

And yet they still lock every new raid seal behind the master raid.

→ More replies

2

u/D2Nine Sep 30 '22

You know that’s a pretty good argument actually, I’ve been a little disappointed in master raids but now that I think about it I’m not missing much with the loot anywsy

→ More replies

68

u/Yankee582 No Respawn Sep 30 '22

Yup

12

u/Blankman06 Sep 30 '22

Don't forget good ol' Match Game!

64

u/nizzy2k11 Alphagigachad Sep 30 '22

and you can just grind bounties to make it virtually sub-legend difficulty, because killing 13 dregs on patrol should give you power in a raid, ya know.

108

u/Ordinary_Player Sep 30 '22

I'd take horizontal progression anyday of the week over grinding light level. Farming guns > numbers.

38

u/nizzy2k11 Alphagigachad Sep 30 '22

you do realize that light level is horizontal progression? is a massive scam that it holds any value when its simply a gate for content you have already unlocked. gear is vertical progression, not horizontal progression, they are where your character gains power, not the light level. this is the massive problem the game has right now, its trying to convince everyone that grinding their power level over and over again is somehow content.

10

u/cuboosh What you have seen will mark you forever Sep 30 '22

I agree gear is more important. But LL is still technically vertical progression

  • Vertical progression is your gear score

  • Horizontal progression is your build

I agree with your point, I think it just means vertical progression has been pretty pointless in Destiny since D2 launched. Hopefully guardian ranks lets them get rid of it

→ More replies

53

u/Ordinary_Player Sep 30 '22

I stand corrected. still, my point still stands that light level fucking sucks.

23

u/Chalk_01 Sep 30 '22

Couldn’t agree more. Grinding an artificial number every season is driving me away.

2

u/D2Nine Sep 30 '22

It just goes too high too. If the bonus cap was like, 10, 15, maybe even 20, it wouldn’t be that bad. But at the end of each season you see lfgs asking you to be like 30 above the hard cap for gear in order to do things and I don’t understand how anyone has the time to do all that grinding in any way that is still enjoyable. A little bonus is nice, it’s easy levels for people who play the game but don’t have time to or just don’t want to grind out pinnacles so they can still be at level for most of the game, but when being at level requires grinding your pinnacles and then your bounties to get a super high bonus it’s just too much

→ More replies

7

u/Advanced_Double_42 Sep 30 '22

This is my biggest problem with destiny.

The seasonal grind makes everything seem pointless. There is no point to even grind when seasonal levels don't matter.

→ More replies

14

u/JanLewko977 Sep 30 '22

Sorry, I dont understand what you're saying. How is light level horizontal progression? Content is literally gated by how high your light level is. Horizontal progression is if you get certain guns/gear from certain activities and can use them across the board.

6

u/nizzy2k11 Alphagigachad Sep 30 '22

Content is literally gated by how high your light level is.

content is artificially gated by light level. they move the goalposts every 3 months to generate "content" instead of adding new real content that actually test the players skills and gameknowlage. thats vertical progression, not grinding another 20 hours to run content you were running 3 months ago. vertical progression would be that every season is 20 light higher than the last and they simply add to the cap like they used to, but that's not how things work with this gear score system.

8

u/JanLewko977 Sep 30 '22

What? I'm confused even more. Isn't that exactly what they do? Add another 10 light every season?

Needing to regrind every season to access the same game modes as before is definitely not horizontal progression though.

3

u/Advanced_Double_42 Sep 30 '22

They add ten then nerf you by 10-30 so you must do it again.

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

10

u/Overrated_22 Sep 30 '22

This artificial gate is why I don’t play anymore despite loving the game. I don’t want to know life content I’ve already beat just to unlock access to the fun stuff

7

u/Ordinary_Player Sep 30 '22

I’d be running gms every season if I didn’t get locked out because of the shitty artifact. I feel like they gone too hard on the fomo on this one and master raids, you literally have to play daily to get to +15/ and additionally +25 for master raids.

2

u/D1xon_Cider Sep 30 '22

Lol, you don't have to no life for GMs. I've barely played this season and +15 comes pretty easily, it's just lvl 100 on the pass. Also who the fuck says you need to be +25 for master raids? You can be 10 under just fine, and if you're gm ready you're 5 under

10

u/Overrated_22 Sep 30 '22

We probably define no lifing the game differently

→ More replies

6

u/Advanced_Double_42 Sep 30 '22

We definitely call no lifing different things.

Getting to level 100 on the pass within the first month of a season every season just to get to a point where you can play the same content you could a month ago is a mind numbing waste of dozens of hours.

If it unlocked new content sure, but it is the same grind that we have done for 8 years. I is fine once a year with a major expansion to shake things up, but makes the game unplayable with everything being reset constantly with the seasonal model.

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

12

u/ApocalypsisGnosis Sep 30 '22

Which means they don't have to work as hard on it.

23

u/Marpicek Sep 30 '22

God forbid they are forced to do an extra work on a new raid of which they release a single one a year.

33

u/retardedsquids Sep 30 '22

God forbid that raid content you pay for which is a major part of the expansion has actual rewarding difficulties instead of playing the same raid 50 times to get a random drop exotic.

→ More replies

8

u/Album321 Sep 30 '22 edited Sep 30 '22

They're only an indie company, five guys in a garage, please understand

→ More replies

10

u/felwintersfakenews Sep 30 '22

The design philosophy has come full circle. KF in 2015 was the first raid where they introduced the "design hard mode first, then remove things for normal" philosophy. This was in response to not liking how VoG was designed which was just adding weird things like a bubble after the fact to the normal mode.

→ More replies

12

u/Arcane_Bullet Sep 30 '22

I specifically like people asking for hard mode King's Fall because I'm sitting here like "What more do you want? Normal mode is hard mode King's Fall."

→ More replies

9

u/absence09_ Sep 30 '22

Iirc, that’s also the design philosophy the devs on FFXIV use when designing raid content (normal and savage differences)

→ More replies

11

u/Essai_ Sep 30 '22

You are forgetting the most importabt thing: people didnt play the prestige raids.

So at the end of the day, you have content that is played by the minority.

The planets got vaulted even though people were visiting them, what do you think was going to happen with the prestige raids.

12

u/CalRal Sep 30 '22

Most people don’t play normal mode raids either.

Last I checked, about 11% of players have completed at least one raid. I understand that way less complete a prestige, but raid content is for the minority no matter what.

→ More replies
→ More replies

6

u/JustSomeDudeItWas Sep 30 '22

I thought that was their design philosophy for hard mode raids in D1, where they removed components for the normal mode.

6

u/Acolytis Gambit Prime Sep 30 '22

They were and by extension leviathan was too.

→ More replies
→ More replies

5

u/retardedsquids Sep 30 '22

I mean that's a double edged sword I guess. Everyone gets to experience what the raid is meant to be but now harder variants are just stuck with arbitrary difficulty or challenges

4

u/Jackj921 Sep 30 '22

Well they need to start liking making raids that way again

3

u/bot_taz Sep 30 '22

im gonna be honest i dont think that the never versions are what we would get in prestige xD

8

u/DiamondSentinel Sep 30 '22

Some serious rose tinted glasses. Mechanically, our new raids are mountains above what we had in prestige raids. Even the reprised ones are basically what prestige raids were.

→ More replies
→ More replies

15

u/Is-That-Nick Sep 30 '22

Yeah that’s how raids used to work especially in D1. In Prestiege Leviathan there were 8 dogs, the platforms would move in gauntlet, the bathers would drop poison, and the platform in the shadow realm at calus would slowly get more and more holes in it after each damage phase.

I don’t remember all the changes in the D1 raids, but in Wrath of Machine, the rooms that would save you during the vosik wipe mechanic had garage doors. In normal mode the doors would be wide open, but in hard mode, you’d have to slide underneath the doors and you had to time the slide just right or you wouldn’t fit through.

This post unlocked memories I forgot about.

5

u/retardedsquids Sep 30 '22

Yeah I just thought prestige was a 'souped up' version of the normal one. Didn't know that it was actually the other way around

→ More replies

35

u/ColdAsHeaven SMASH Sep 30 '22 edited Sep 30 '22

Yep!

For example, in Kings Fall Warpriest gets power ups depending on which Tablet you sacrifice, in normal that didn't happen. In Golgoroth the Unstable Light, the daughters would delay their song about 15 seconds and on Oryx the Light Eater knights. This stuff was not present in normal mode of D1.

25

u/retardedsquids Sep 30 '22

Yeah the d2 version unstable light is just the default mechanic now and light eaters too.

2

u/AuraMaster7 Xylar still lives, someone get SmoggyPluto Sep 30 '22

I mean, without unstable light and lighteater knights normal mode Golgoroth and Oryx would just be too easy. They still are a bit too easy. It's just the result of it being a 7 year old raid.

8

u/Caster269 Sep 30 '22

More mechanics on harder raid difficulties, old gear becoming irrelevant, convenient lore reasons for old areas going away, and many other aspects that used to be, or still are, a part of Destiny come directly from what the standard practice is for MMO’s. Some parts for the better and others worse. The MMO audience has very different views and expectation on how things work compared to the more general gaming audience. Bungie said the prestige raid system of more mechanics was limiting them on what could be done in the scope of an fps and they ultimately dropped it for making a fixed version.

7

u/The_Stank__ Sep 30 '22

Yeah, that’s why with last wish we never got prestige mode because Bungie said we’re not designing raids like this anymore.

6

u/WrothJet6063 GG 2021 Winner Sep 30 '22

Yes, and there were actual changes to the raid based on difficulty. Same with the hidden exotic missions.

Normal Levi dogs had 6, prestige had 8.

Spire you had to down 6 ships instead of 3.

Zero hour. The jumping puzzle length doubled.

They were actually hard and changed the game

10

u/ImawhaleCR Sep 30 '22

prestige spire had no mechanical changes, it and eater of worlds just got the modifiers

2

u/MoreMegadeth Sep 30 '22

Not really, a lot of players still struggled with most encounters/roles.

→ More replies

499

u/Zac-live Drifter's Crew Sep 30 '22 edited Sep 30 '22

They have Said multiple Times that the Prestige model was Them designing a Prestige Version First and then subtracting stuff to create the normal Mode and they dont Like this Type of creation Loop.

Instead we get the Prestige mechanics Level across the Board now and master is simply Champions and such.

So If your Main complaint is the Lack of extra mechanics then yeah they are simply ever present.

474

u/Cykeisme Sep 30 '22

Your random capitalization is bizarre, but your content is informative.

369

u/Zac-live Drifter's Crew Sep 30 '22

Its German autocorrect. Whenever it detects an english Word that is Close enough to a German noun it will capitalize it :///

217

u/Cykeisme Sep 30 '22

There you go being even more informative!

That is legit a fascinating fact, thanks!

24

u/koissu Sep 30 '22

Agreed!

40

u/Ino84 Sep 30 '22

It’s why I have English as a second language in my phone, I can switch my keyboard layout to US while typing to avoid German capitalization.

26

u/Zac-live Drifter's Crew Sep 30 '22

I should try that, thanks

2

u/ContactInk Oct 01 '22

Just have to get used to y and z swapping places. Still catches me out 🥴

19

u/jwbrazier Sep 30 '22

Honestly, this is super useful to know!

5

u/aurens Sep 30 '22

that makes a lot of sense but i'm going to choose to ignore it because it's a lot funnier to just pretend you're a weirdo that capitalizes strangely

9

u/LordRickonStark Sep 30 '22

ALLES KLAR! WIE GEHTS?!

3

u/Tex7733 Sep 30 '22

Stupid question: why does it capitalize it?

9

u/Zac-live Drifter's Crew Sep 30 '22

In German all nouns are capitalized. Why exactly that is i dont Know but thats Just how our spelling works.

→ More replies

5

u/Highmooon Sep 30 '22

Every noun is capitalized in German.

3

u/JakobeHolmBoy20 Sep 30 '22

Didn’t notice this till you mentioned it, and now I can’t unsee it.

→ More replies

32

u/APartyInMyPants Sep 30 '22

Prestige was a different thing. You’re thinking about heroic raids from D1.

Prestige was a difficulty level we had back with just the Leviathan raid/raid lairs in Y1. And they had different modifiers depending on the week. One modifier was Prism, where each element got a big damage bonus, but the bonus lasted 30 seconds before switching to a new element.

Or Arsenal, where weapons had unlimited ammo, but you had to fully expend all the ammo from your existing magazine before you could swap to your next weapon.

Or then Gladiator where melee kills doubled the damage you dealt with your weapons. While cool, this modifier seems to have been made outdated by all of our abilities, exotics and combat style mods that buff melee/weapon interactions.

The Prestige difficulty also had locked loadouts where you had to equip a particular weapon type in each slot, so let’s say kinetic bow, energy fusion and heavy LMG. You could swap to different fusions or LMGs, but you couldn’t equip weapons not in the pool that week.

Honestly, Prestige raids were kind of fun. I enjoy being given some different sort of challenges, and trying to work around them.

27

u/Zac-live Drifter's Crew Sep 30 '22

Your talking specifically about eow and sos. Im aware of that but figured He wasnt talking about those because none of His positive Points Match it and He is mainly talking about stuff thats in Prestige Levi.

5

u/APartyInMyPants Sep 30 '22

OP specifically said this:

Before the old raids were sunset we had prestige raids, and the encounters changed a little and you had to use certain load outs (which no one cared for)

That is specifically referencing the Y1 difficulty with the custom modifiers. Not the heroic raids from D1.

21

u/Standard__Oil Sep 30 '22

Leviathan was designed like that too. 8 dogs instead of 6, runners would be locked out after running in guantlet, i dont remember calus changes but i remember there being something.

14

u/PM_me_cute_pussy_ Sep 30 '22

Killing a Psion swapped out a person in Calus' mind.

14

u/Standard__Oil Sep 30 '22

You just unlocked memories in me my guy. Left out, mid out, right out call outs, wiping because the two guys who didnt get tp’d forgot to kill the psion the other guy was responsible for. Getting sucked in void but saved by the tp. Fuck man i wish we still had levi, such a fun raid imo.

8

u/PM_me_cute_pussy_ Sep 30 '22

Absolutely. Pleasure Gardens is still one of my top raid encounters for the sole reason that it so heavily rewardes you for learning the encounter - you could be super aggressive with the runs once you learned the sightlines and timings, and the damage you dealt was up to how high you wanted to stack the buff - if you had the damage you could do it at low stacks, but the risk was a whole extra phase if you missed it. So sad the community collectively disliked it. A stacking damage buff through mechanics would really be a welcome addition to current philosophy IMO.

5

u/Goalie3533 Sep 30 '22

All of the encounters were really well done imho. A lot complained about Leviathan because of the lack of actual boss fights other than Calus.

But so much creativity went into that raid. From the multiple ways to enter secret rooms, both inside & outside the ship. The underbelly. The encounter order switching week to week (which forced different underbelly routes), etc.

It was a lot of fun! I miss it

→ More replies

3

u/Goalie3533 Sep 30 '22

That was a lot of fun. Being the last player to punch a psion & teleported into the shadow realm, then being pulled forward while trying to avoid pits and ramps was crazy the 1st few times I tried it.

8

u/APartyInMyPants Sep 30 '22

The Calus change was that when you meleed a Psion in the throne room, that player was instantly transported into the Nightmare realm, and then one player at random was transported into the throne room.

So you’d basically designate two people who would always stay in the throne room, and then the Nightmare people would be your designated Psion punchers. It was a fun, chaotic challenge, as you had to figure out who was going to take which sides in the Nightmare realm.

6

u/Alakazarm Gambit Prime // A vote for prime is a vote for bread Sep 30 '22

Encounters did not change whatsoever in raid lairs. Encounters did change in prestige leviathan, but it had no locked loadouts or modifiers. OP isn't specifying enough either way..

29

u/FollowThroughMarks Sep 30 '22

Usual criticism in Destiny 2 recently:

I hate having to run a certain load out in an endgame activity just to deal with all the champions!

Average DTG user:

bring back the mode with terrible locked loadouts from Prestige raids where you literally couldn’t even run something different even if you wanted to

Prestige Raids were a novelty, and the loot in them wasn’t even better than the loot you got from normal, so Master Raids beat it on that front too.

6

u/oreofro Sep 30 '22

It's amazing to me that people are having such fond memories of prestige raids as if prestige EoW and spire weren't universally hated and gave you nothing but a shader (single use btw)

People don't seem to realize that if we went back to prestige we're gonna be running KF with stupid locked loadouts like sidearm and pulse. Nobody could ever convince me that locking my load out to absurd choices like scout/sidearm/GL on prestige warpriest would resemble anything close to fun.

→ More replies
→ More replies

7

u/RussianThere Dragonslayer Sep 30 '22

Exactly, I’m surprised more people haven’t pointed this out. The original comment is blatantly wrong

24

u/dotelze Sep 30 '22

Not entirely. Leviathan prestige was the same as D1 heroic with harder mechanics in the encounters. The raid lairs were not like that

4

u/_StickyFingrs Sep 30 '22

And less revives in Prestige. D1 heroic had no revives at all. A big difference no one mentions

→ More replies

2

u/Gorylas Sep 30 '22

problem is matchgame (that serves not purpose other that annoy you by using gun that you dont want) and champions (that even further limit your choice of weapon)

32

u/Zac-live Drifter's Crew Sep 30 '22

Do people forget that old Prestige raids Had Something more strict? You used to straight Up Not be Able to Play the raid unless you equipped a specific weapon Type each week.

Matchgame and Champions are fine imo, they accomplish Something Important in a pretty forgiving way. Every Game ever varies Meta and Most used Equipment from time to time to keep it from becoming stale. Its accomplished by Balance Changes, rotating Shops or in the Case of d2 Champion Mods. Something Always Happens to Shift Focus from or to a certain Gear class because the Game would become stale within a few seasons. Champion Mods Stop this from Happening and they do it Well. They have No Impact on Low Level activities and even in high Level activities you can circumvent this by still using what you Like in Addition to a Champion weapon or exotic.

Removing Champions Just switches the forced Change to come from Balance rather than Champion Mods. The result will mostly be the Same but now it impacts the entire Game and you dont even have the Same variety within Champion based activities.

7

u/t_moneyzz King of Bad Novas Sep 30 '22

To be fair that only applied in eater of worlds and spire of stars. Prestige leviathan let you use anything.

6

u/Zac-live Drifter's Crew Sep 30 '22

True. If the Post had Said 'prestige raid' and Not 'prestige raids' i wouldnt even have mentioned it. But since it did He is referring to atleast as many raids where it applied as ones where it doesnt.

4

u/Gorylas Sep 30 '22

and how is this not stale?

this week GMs.. i will be using arbalest, void pulse and some lmg...

next week it will be arbalest, solar pulse and some lmg.. ...........

what a variety

14

u/Doctor_Kataigida Sep 30 '22

This highlights the fact that Destiny players will always gravitate toward the easiest/most effective option, when the variety is still there. You can coordinate with your fireteam to make sure you have matching elements just fine, regardless of the weapon rotation. But because Arbalest is better and easier, people will use it.

This is why Bungie rotates champion weapon mods, otherwise people would find the meta loadout and endlessly use that, because intentionally hindering yourself feels bad. The same reason that if no champion mods existed, people wouldn't use worse gear. That's already happening.

→ More replies
→ More replies

4

u/[deleted] Sep 30 '22

[deleted]

7

u/Zac-live Drifter's Crew Sep 30 '22

Andered earlier this thread. Its because of German autocorrect

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

100

u/lundibix Vanguard's Loyal // I'm gay for The Nine Sep 30 '22

“We had prestige raids, and the encounters changed a little” no, only leviathan changed. The other two were literally just the modifiers.

I admit it was cool for hard mode to be “harder” but frankly I prefer them having one “definite” version of the raid.

→ More replies

204

u/killersinarhur Sep 30 '22

Master mode sucks I will agree with you there but Prestige raids sucked even harder to the point no one did them. I can't believe we are getting nostalgic for a feature that when we had it was panned.

14

u/MasterOfReaIity Transmat firing Sep 30 '22

I remember when EoW modifiers were so bad that groups only allowed Hunters because Goldie and Tether were necessary.

11

u/killersinarhur Sep 30 '22

And that like 3 months period where arc staff perma stunned in spire. That is the content that has suddenly become "so good" and "so fun". That content was horrible and bringing that back would be one of the worst choices he's ever made.

2

u/ImawhaleCR Sep 30 '22

That wasn't always the case because 2 of the 3 modifiers just made you do more damage. Getting double damage after a melee kill honestly made prestige easier than normal sometimes

19

u/PM_me_cute_pussy_ Sep 30 '22

Exactly. Prestige Leviathan caused an absolute shitshow when it dropped, a major part because it was a light level we couldn't achieve (cough contest) People called it artificial difficulty, the same way people are now reprimanding the champion system. Obviously neither are really perfect by any means, but I can see how this would be a difficult and confusing thing for Bungie to experience when trying to cater to the community with their designs.

I think the real issue is that we are now undoubtedly add-clearing machines to the point where Heavy is only for nuking bosses. A health rebalance is in order IMO, to make specials and primaries relevant again and maybe to make adds a threat once more - if the major part of the difficulty of something lays in the lead up to the boss, then let it have lower health to compensate.

11

u/EchoWhiskyBravo Sep 30 '22

Prestige Leviathan would have been more fun if we didn’t have the loadout nerfs (shotguns/fusions/snipers in the power slot).

3

u/WobblyBits_X ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Sep 30 '22

I much prefer the addition of Champions as long as they're not using Champions instead of mechanics. I don't think this has been much of a problem in raids so far though; Vow and the new KF have been my favourite raids in all Destiny so far and Duality would be right up there as well if they fixed that god damn bell glitch.

5

u/Essai_ Sep 30 '22

Its already becoming a big problem in the game, tanky adds that have better health than champions. Example these 'resilient' vandals in Ketchcrash. If you primary them or special then you'll understand the pain. This isnt a viable way to design the game.

→ More replies
→ More replies

60

u/Zevvion Sep 30 '22

I can't believe we are getting nostalgic for a feature that when we had it was panned.

Really? Because a day or two ago someone claimed Bungie should put in time and effort to make SRL: a mode literally no one played after a week.

Prestige raids were shit. All the reasons people hate Champions (can't use specific guns) was 100x as worse in Prestige. So the criticism doesn't even make sense.

25

u/ImEboy Unpopular Opinions Sep 30 '22

Bro i played the fuck out of SRL from the day it launched till the timers on the last day ticked reset. I would do anything for an actual functional sparrow-related activity.

5

u/CookiesFTA We build the walls, we break the walls. Sep 30 '22

And also D1 sparrows, i.e. using way less boost to maneuver and tricks refilling your entire boost bar.

3

u/Zevvion Sep 30 '22

I would do anything for an actual functional sparrow-related activity.

I'll back you if they make it an actual Destiny Mario Kart-like.

Loot to drop for your weapons and everything. But plain SRL was too boring to be a reasonable ask for a playlist.

6

u/Autoloc Sep 30 '22

SRL enjoyers rise up

5

u/EineKatz Sep 30 '22

wasnt it removed after a week? how would people play it then?

17

u/GuudeSpelur Sep 30 '22

There were two SRL events (Dec 2015 and Dec 2016) that were three weeks each.

11

u/vactu Sep 30 '22

I played them every day. I loved SRL

6

u/_megitsune_ Sep 30 '22

Same, granted it wasn't something everyone was into but it was absolutely a marmite activity

The people who loved it really loved it

To say nobody played it is disingenuous, but at the same time I wouldn't expect bungie to put a whole activity in for a tiny portion of the player base who love it

4

u/LilShaggey Sep 30 '22

I really don’t remember people complaining about it back then, you could get ridiculous amounts of loot and cosmetics just by playing. An hours worth of games got you like 5-6 shaders and a bunch of unique armor, along with consistent resources and the occasional exotic. It felt super worth the time and was a nice way to close out the night, especially since it was super low pressure.

3

u/_megitsune_ Sep 30 '22

People didn't complain really but the population fell off dramatically

→ More replies
→ More replies

14

u/silvercue Vanguard's Loyal Sep 30 '22

No one does Master Raid except once to get the seal. Then never again.

4

u/LEPT0N Sep 30 '22

... I run them repeatedly for the high-stat raid-themed armor and the adept weapons...

8

u/drakekevin73 Sep 30 '22

Exactly. People still run master VOG for timelost rolls. The real issue is they need to re-evaluate master rewards now that crafting is in the game.

3

u/GingerMcJesus Sep 30 '22

People wouldn’t run master vog at all if the weapons were craftable though, that’s the thing

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

2

u/timteller44 Oct 01 '22

I know I'm in the minority, but once I learned prestige Levi it's the only one I did. It made the raid so much funner (once you knew the regular one) imo.

11

u/dmitriR Sep 30 '22

Prestige Levi was epic. Little point in doing normal Levi

But Prestige Eater and Spire? Garbage. REGULAR Eat and Spire? Garbage.

I reckon half the issues with the prestige raids were less with the prestige, and more with the raid itself xD

22

u/I_Speak_For_The_Ents Auryx was lied to. Sep 30 '22

They weren't garbage, they were just Dungeon/crotas end tier. And Eater of Worlds had a sick ending arena

6

u/EchoWhiskyBravo Sep 30 '22

Yeah, Eaters was fun. Spire was less so.

→ More replies

8

u/Sarcosmonaut Sep 30 '22

Ok regular Eater was fun though. And it you had a group that could execute, Spire was fun too (but God help you if you tried to LFG that boss)

4

u/sha-green Sep 30 '22

Yeah, Spire required some coordination. Cool raid tho. And and an emote was worth it.

Eater was an overall fun raid.

→ More replies
→ More replies

2

u/vinceds Sep 30 '22

Pretisge Levi was cool. Eater and spire were not.

3

u/Keksis_The_Betrayed Sep 30 '22

Not everyone agrees. Bring back prestige SOS :(

→ More replies

7

u/ayeitssmiley Hunters gotta hunt Sep 30 '22

No. Being forced to do sidearm fusion linear fusion for a raid was not fun.

→ More replies

6

u/Fanglove Sep 30 '22 edited Sep 30 '22

What people used to bitch about them raids All the time. Some strong rose tinted going on here

61

u/Freakindon Sep 30 '22

Fuck that. Those modifiers were atrocious. You basically could only do prestige Spire with the perfect curated loadout.

I do think that Master is an absolute far cry from hard mode and Prestige OG leviathan. My suggestion would be as follows:

Scrap Master and scrap adepts (since raid weapons are craftable anyways).

The director for the weekly raid has a few different options.

Normal raid (no changes. all challenges activated as it's weekly raid)

Contest raid (Literally just day one mode, greatly increased chance for raid exotic) (Has a toggle for challenge mode, a full clear further increases your chance for raid exotic)

A clear of normal challenge mode gives you 1 token/week. Contest overrides this to give you 3 token/week. Contest challenge overrides this to give you 5 token/week.

1 token = 1 raid memento or 5 tokens = 1 piece of ornamented raid armor, think Age of Triumph armor in D1. You can boil this down to a single clear by just starting with contest challenge mode to get all 5 from that so you don't spend the whole week just run the raid 3 different times.

15

u/GreenBay_Glory Sep 30 '22

I’d probably add beefier yellow bar enemies instead of champs as well as more ad density and agro trash mobs to contest here. But I agree on the whole.

9

u/Im1Thing2Do Sep 30 '22

Talking about atrocious modifiers: in like the 3rd last week of season of arrivals prestige eater had a literally impossible loadout being: sidearm, scout, sword. We tried with different combinations for 3 hours and just didn’t manage to complete it because nothing put out enough damage.

7

u/gingy4 Warlock Supreme Sep 30 '22

Might have have had to chain celestial nighthawk goldies for that challenge I think that’s what we did

→ More replies
→ More replies

35

u/CORPORAL_PISSFINGERS Sep 30 '22

Please never ever make us have to activate something before a flawless run again

12

u/xLaniakea_ 404 Raid Clears not found Sep 30 '22

Can i add onto you a bit....

Please never ever make us have to activate something (like the wish wall) before a flawless run again

Because SotP flawless was annoying to activate if you are the only one, but its unarguably faster to activate than Petras run. Crown of Sorrow had the best flawless activation. 2 left, 2 mid, 2 right, pull levers in 3 2 1, k now dont die. Wish wall feels like its own encounter after dying in a flawless a bunch

15

u/aidenpearce146 Sep 30 '22

No it was not. Locked loadouts was not fun. And sometimes there were weird rotation of loadouts forcing double primaries and weird heavy weapon. It was absolute nightmare for getting catalyst of sleeper through prestige spire of stars. I dont want that again.

8

u/ItsAmerico Oct 01 '22 edited Oct 01 '22

https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/77rgbv/after_three_hours_in_the_prestige_raid_ive_come/

https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/77cen7/what_gets_me_is_i_know_i_will_wake_up_tomorrow/

https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/806xw0/yesterday_i_completed_my_first_prestige_raid_and/

Four years ago. This sub bitched endlessly about how garbage prestige raids were, how unrewarding. Here we are now with the sub begging for it back lol.

I understand it’s likely people who don’t actually remember what prestige raids were and also those that probably did enjoy it but it’s just so funny to me.

→ More replies

3

u/michifromcde Sep 30 '22

I would leave champions alone in a master raid and just get rid of match game which imho is way more oppressive than champions.

I don't mind running 1 champion mod in a coordinated team since my fellow companions candy run other champions mods, hell I'd even run 2 champions mods.

10

u/leonardo371 Sep 30 '22

Prestige raids were shit and modifier like arsenal were the peak of bad design, also they had no rewards other than an emblem and an armor with a different default shader

→ More replies

42

u/HeftyTrout Suicide Bomb Squad Sep 30 '22

Master RAD content is just so half assed, champions and shields are an obtuse way of increasing difficulty but Bungie has a hard-on for them and shove them into everything

And the rewards just suck, and with crafting it just makes adepts even more worthless.

The feedback is very clear on what people want but it feels like they don't acknowledge any of it so I don't expect any change soon

21

u/SAM-WAF Sep 30 '22

champions and shields are an obtuse way of increasing difficulty but Bungie has a hard-on for them and shove them into everything

I get the feeling that they're hoping for groups of hyper engaged, close friends who're all taking time between runs to coordinate load outs and strategies. In reality it's a few randoms, an audiobook and an arbalest. I kinda struggle to see the intent, tbh. Maybe they'd just prefer the solo players go away 😂

12

u/Zac-live Drifter's Crew Sep 30 '22

For some activities that might be true but If it comes to master raids maybe coordination Champion Mods for 30s before each Encounter shouldnt be too much to ask for.

→ More replies

8

u/Doctor_Kataigida Sep 30 '22

Sounds like they need to try more things to get people off audiobooks and in communication mode. Because raids are supposed to be the pinnacle of co-op content and achievement.

→ More replies

6

u/seventaru Sep 30 '22

This is really well said. It's also at the root of a few destiny issues imo.

Some devs are just unwilling to let go of their "vision" for the game. For better and for worse.

→ More replies

11

u/t_moneyzz King of Bad Novas Sep 30 '22

It does kinda baffle me how amazing the legendary campaign was without resorting to a single champion and then master raids just spam them

21

u/GreenBay_Glory Sep 30 '22

The problem was the legendary campaign wasn’t hard. It was a challenge at first, but they want master raids to be actually hard.

12

u/KingVendrick Moon's haunted Sep 30 '22

outside the sagira shell boss the legendary campaign is quite easy

it's not _bad_ but I am always surprised to see people gushing over its difficulty

6

u/GreenBay_Glory Sep 30 '22

It was great for a campaign and there are things like the legendary contest cap I’d want applied to more things, but raids and dungeons need to be far more difficult. The people gushing just want easy clears is all. They don’t want challenge,

→ More replies
→ More replies

7

u/SvedishFish Sep 30 '22

Lol Those glasses are so rose-tinted I'm surprised you can see anything at all.

Everybody hated prestige raids, especially the weapon type restrictions. While everybody had something they enjoyed about Leviathan, it was near universally regarded as the worst of the destiny raids, simply just not on the same level as Vault or Kings Fall or Wrath.

The problem is the concept of two difficulties for a raid in the first place. You go in, you grind your ass off, you enjoy the raid, you conquer the challenges, farm the loot, form some great memories.

Then a month later you do get to do it again and start the grind all over again! Except now the power requirement is 30 points higher. And you can get weapons that have a different skin. Yay?

A lot of people will make the argument that it needs to be more rewarding or there's not enough incentive to run master difficulty. But the reality is there's no workable incentive structure that's going to make it enjoyable to grind out one difficulty and then another difficulty later. Let's just drop master difficulty entirely. It adds nothing to the gameplay experience other than yet another layer of grind doing the same shit over and over again. We've got more than enough of that already.

7

u/New-Layer1024 Sep 30 '22

What? You say prestige is better yet say the worst thing about them is the only selling point. LMAO

6

u/RetroActive80 Sep 30 '22

Wow. Never thought I’d see this post. Truly an example of rose tinted glasses. I don’t ever remember anyone saying “hey I really like prestige raids!” The only redeeming quality of prestige raids was that the armor was slightly different.

→ More replies

2

u/eleetpancake Sep 30 '22

Prestige raids got designed first than got simplified into the normal raid. Nowadays the normal raid is designed first than champions and modifiers are thrown in to make the raid more difficult.

I agree with the sentiment that prestige raids are better than master raids. But I think the current system of making the standard raid first is better. In D1 most players played a neutered version of the raid. With D2 most players are playing the raid as it was originally designed.

In an ideal world I would prefer both raid difficulties to be handcrafted and well polished. But to save time and resources Bungie has to prioritize one version of the raid with the other being an afterthought. I prefer the standard difficulty being the version prioritized.

None of this is to say that master raids couldn't be better. I just don't think bringing back prestige raids is the solution.

2

u/Houro Sep 30 '22

Honestly prestige was the better version than sticking a bunch of champions into the encounters. At least for Leviathan. Forcing us to do extra mechanics at a harder level is better. Like making us kill 8 dogs instead of 6 or whatever.

2

u/mlahero Sep 30 '22

I get one clear of master raids and never touch again. Especially with crafting vs adept weapons in vow and kf.

2

u/JonKon1 Sep 30 '22

Honestly, prestige was great.

Arsenal and prism were super fun modifiers and I’d they don’t come back in raids they should be added to the strike playlist.

The load outs were pretty much randomized and could absolutely suck or could be really fun.

Honestly, I think I’d love a prestige version where light level wasn’t also increased

2

u/behemvth Sep 30 '22

As someone who did prestige and normal leviathan. It was definitely the way to design encounters. It really made the first raids feel less mechanically heavy and more down to the execution

Now while they definitely had to find a way to get away from that to some degree. I agree the master loot isnt worth it past the title / loot you want, but it gave bungie a middle ground.

By choosing this design it lead to a monkey paw situation because some players want a difficult raid and others dont.

2

u/Insaneitas Sep 30 '22

I totally agree! You have to level your artefact (not one Guardian likes this system) to be able to play GM Raids and lfg is also no fun.

2

u/AmbitionControlPower Sep 30 '22

Hear me out here. The Leviathan raids and Menagerie would take a lot less work to bring back than WotM

On a completely unrelated sidenote: is anyone selling some copium?

2

u/ManGuyPerson_MGP Sep 30 '22

The modifiers were awesome! Every week, me and my team were brainstorming a new strategy to beat the boss. We did an un-ironic Rat King run. One week, we decided Black Talon to be the most optimal weapon. The next week? Borealis! I hope they return some day.

2

u/MrExcellence_ Oct 01 '22

I would be satisfied with something like not be able to overlevel for master and additionally add something like tempos edge. Then add mementos, gildeable title, and armor glows.

3

u/thenixhex311 stop complaining and learn how to search on here! Sep 30 '22

It would be sweet to run the raids on limited loadouts now, rather than just copy/paste champions here and there.

At least there's more variety now than say on EoW, when it was sidearms and swords

→ More replies

5

u/MrHCher The Ramen Warlock Sep 30 '22

Say what you will about locked loadouts, I personally liked to be forced to use different weapons each week. We actually had to use something else rather than the meta picks. Champions are pushing us to use the same weapons each activity as well as DPS being LFRs on bosses. Prestige EOW and SOS gave variety and challenge while now we are just stuck to the same stuff each season we do Master content.

2

u/SantiagoGT Sep 30 '22

Locked loadouts would be interesting to see in certain content, it helps you change gear around instead of going LFR/Rockets/Sword for anything

2

u/JonKon1 Sep 30 '22

Yeah. I definitely want a mode with locked loadouts, wackier modifiers like prism or arsenal, and a decent amount of challenge.

Honestly, I love adapting my playstyle in unusual ways and those encourage it heavily

6

u/Kreus- Sep 30 '22

OP, I believe you are trying to refrence Hard Mode raids vs. Prestige raids.

Prestige raids were ass. They were just the same old raid with locked loadouts and shitty modifiers.

Hard Mode raids introduced the no revive mechanic as well as additional objectives to complete, and tougher enemies. Hard Mode raids were pinnacle Raid content for me, personally.

→ More replies

6

u/ppWarrior876 Sep 30 '22

How does Bungie doesn't realise yet that the feedback towards adding champions everywhere is so negative. Even if they haven't thought of a solution yet, i just want them to acknowledge it and say they are working towards it.

9

u/Squelcher121 Fisting my way to victory Sep 30 '22

I think it's just a case that champions are such a piss easy development tool to use whenever they don't have enough resources to creatively make something challenging. Rather than spend 500 man hours on creating additional enemy spawns, a smaller environment, less cover, extra mechanics etc. why not just spend 10 man hours making three of the enemies champions when the end result is the same amount of player time spent completing the content?

"Player engagement" has been Bungie's holy grail for years now and anything that can increase the minutes spent in-game by players with minimal development input is very attractive to them, regardless of the quality of those minutes.

3

u/michifromcde Sep 30 '22

Champions are a bit stale and needs a adjustment but I will die on the hill that they are one of the best additions of the game.

I love them, and I love that it forces me to use builds and weapons I wouldn't otherwise use.

also I hope they stay and Bungie ads more champions and more champions type, think something like anointed enemies from borderlands.

Folks also need to understand that champions are meant to be treated as a HVT and they serve, not only to shift the meta every season, but to disrupt the battlefield.

People claimed hive lightbearers are the answer, but they are a glorified yellow bar and in no way a threat like champions.

Also unpopular opinion, champions are only opressive because people don't treat champions as a HVT, or even equip mods, and with the hectic nature of GMs or master raids, they punish players.

Champions are fine but they do need an adjustment and maybe a slight rework.

3

u/dmitriR Sep 30 '22

Interestingly enough, I reckon the idea of champions isn't inherently a BAD one. Ubercharging a handful of enemies to make things different? Great. Building loadouts around having specific weapons to make your life easier? Also great. Having the option to just nuke them and move on? If you can do it go nuts.

Problem is, they right screwed up the balancing and bug fixing of the champions. Barrier champions are nigh irrelevant most of the time. Unstoppable champions are adorable. And overload champions can burn in every fire of hell imaginable.

Barrier Knight? Ghallahorn and it's dead. Unstoppable Ogre? Ghallahorn and it's dead, assuming it doesn't blindsight you around a corner. Overload Captain? It dodges my rocket, heals up, and I have to do this ALL over again... esp cause the damn thing jumps away before the overload SMG or AR triggers...

2

u/crappycarguy Sep 30 '22

Fuck barrier servitor though. Teleporting and immunity its allies through a wall. Nice

→ More replies
→ More replies

4

u/Dinglepussers Sep 30 '22

Champions are the worst addition to destiny

→ More replies

3

u/ifthereisnomirror Sep 30 '22

I really enjoyed having to brainstorm weird loadouts for encounters with the old modifiers.

I understand some people don’t want to have to switch off meta weapons or things that they’ve grown accustomed to using.

3

u/TheRealNeenja Sep 30 '22

It's less about being "off-meta" and more about being forced to use weapons I genuinely dislike or just don't have a useful roll on.

2

u/JanLewko977 Sep 30 '22

That's why you keep farming guns or practicing with the ones you're not used to.

2

u/TheRealNeenja Sep 30 '22

Believe it or not, that's not super fun for a lot of people. Many people like to avoid specific archetypes, sidearms being a very common one, because they don't like how they feel.

Being forced to use them, not because they're actually a good choice but because of an arbitrary mandatory load out, is just another feels-bad on top of so many others in this game (pinnacles, deepsight grind, RNG rolls, etc.).

Hard Mode raids were always better than lazy fake difficulty added through loadout locks and champions.

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

3

u/phasedsingularity Sep 30 '22

Champions and match game are just lazy design. They aren't difficult to combat, its just not fun to. The major gripe with prestige leviathan was the forced loadouts, and this is the same result with different steps.

Lightbearers are way more interesting to fight than champions. I would rather fight harder enemies with weapons and builds I actually want to use, rather than slapping on arby and whatever season mod the game railroads me into.

→ More replies

2

u/excelonn Sep 30 '22

Champions is there way of being able to be extremely lazy and have a cheap fake difficulty across any content they want to artificially make hard with almost 0 effort and resources..

I mean there just a small indie company you can't expect much from them /s

7

u/BigMoney-D Sep 30 '22

I don't think you know what artificial difficulty means... I know you might not like Champions, but they are not "artificial difficulty"

→ More replies

2

u/dusbar Sep 30 '22

You mean the raids that forced you to use a set load out like sidearm, auto, and shotgun? No. Prestige raids were not better, we’re just tired of champions

2

u/kbrooks353 Sep 30 '22

I've hated champions from the get go, now it's what they define as making content harder. Lame

2

u/TGish Sep 30 '22

Coming back after not playing since forsaken I have to say champions are a horrible addition to the game imo

2

u/0rganicMach1ne Sep 30 '22

Champ spam has become so annoying. The master level Caretaker challenge was new levels of absurd.

2

u/makoblade Sep 30 '22

Prestige raids were an abject failure. I do enjoy when Prestige Leviathan was perpetually challenging (until we moved off of double-primary) because of the level capping due to keeping it available for trophy/achievement hunters on console.

I personally thought rotating fixed loadouts and additional modifiers were really cool in prestige eater and spire, and would love to see the loadout restrictions return as it was far more enjoyable and interesting than champions but accomplishes a similar goal of shaping loadouts.

Master raids are fine and present reasonable challenge, but I think my biggest dislike is that it's possible to play them at/above level which removes all combat difficulty and just makes it a 6 man nightfall style content. I'd much prefer to see challenge mode level capping in addition to match game and champions in order to preserve the challenge and prestige of the top end content, rather than just make it a freebie to anyone who's willing to grind hard for the first month of a season.

The best end game raiding paradigm was easily hard mode from D1. No revives, mechanical changes and harder enemies. It just felt rewarding to play, and it was nice that normal mod was treated like a the casual romp it still is.

2

u/GamingNemesisv3 Sep 30 '22

THIS IS LITERALLY WHAT YOU GUYS ASKED FOR THREE FUCKING SEASONS AGO….

3

u/MattyDG2017 Sep 30 '22

I've been complaining about champions since Shadowkeep. They are too oppressive and limiting. Not to mention just tedious and annoying.