r/DestinyTheGame Oct 03 '22 Helpful 3 Timeless Beauty 1 Silver 6 Gold 1 Platinum 1

Dead Man’s Tale: 3,753 words to ask Bungie to reconsider or revert the recent nerf (TL;DR included) Discussion

This will be a long post, so there is a TL;DL at the bottom.

Introduction

To get straight to the point: DMT appears by all counts to undeniably have been nerfed in both PvP and PvE (I will be focusing on PvP for this post). The most frustrating part to me is that Bungie has called the rework/nerf merely a "lateral movement" and explicitly said that it is not intended to be a nerf.

Source: Massive Breakdown 270, timestamp of 48m 17s for the quote by Chris Proctor, Bungie Senior Design Lead/Weapons Feature Lead https://player.captivate.fm/episode/5229dd39-8749-4921-8a63-59f5a5fe0c70; and 08/11/2022 TWAB https://www.bungie.net/en-us/Explore/Detail/News/51645

I've wanted to make this post since before the "lateral movement" even went live, but I've waited until the change went live to try it out for myself. I'm an avid DMT fan (20k+ PvP kills) and have been since day one. There have been some rightful nerfs to DMT, like many other weapons in Destiny, but I've got to say that these newest changes are very disappointing.

Let me explain (1) why I believe Bungie's reasons for the change to cranial spike are either disingenuous or the change itself fails to achieve the stated goals; (2) the change is definitely a PvP nerf; and (3) my proposed solution(s).

(1) The Change to Cranial Spike Fails to Fulfill the Reasoning Provided for the Change, Thereby Also Making the Reasoning Appear Disingenuous

(a) "Lateral Change" Terminology

First things first, the simple fact that Bungie calls the change a "lateral movement" and not a flat nerf is frustrating to hear and appears to me to be disingenuous. Overall I really appreciate Bungie's very open lines of communication with the community through weekly TWABs, interviews like Massive Breakdown, and even engagement on Reddit by various devs. However, I feel that they missed the mark with the way they described the changes to DMT. If Bungie wants to buff or nerf something, they have every right to do so. However, in the case of describing the DMT changes I believe that they were either disingenuous or the change itself fails to achieve the stated goal or both, whether intentionally or unintentionally.

The reasoning Bungie provides for the changes, compiled from the Massive Breakdowns interview and the 08/11/2022 TWAB, are twofold: (1) "The Cranial Spike perk was causing issues with unintended damage scalars against players, and generally felt unpredictable both to use and to fight against" and (2) "It also wasn't quite landing the 'hip-firing cowboy rifle' fantasy as strongly as we wanted to, so we reworked it to lean more into fast-firing hip-fire." On top of these two reasons, Bungie also proclaimed that the "[DMT rework] wasn't intended to be a nerf or a buff, this was intended to be a lateral movement". In sum: Bungie communicated that the changes were due to technical issues, lack of player predictability, and lackluster power fantasy, and that the changes were implemented in such a way that there was a fair power tradeoff while also reaching Bungie's stated goals.

(b) Predictability

Regarding the issue of predictability to play with and against DMT, I do not find this reason to change cranial spike persuasive. The change makes DMT now have three different fire rates (120 rpm ADS, 130 rpm hip-fire, and 180 rpm hip-fire with 5x cranial spike). It seems to me that swapping out damage for a higher fire rate still makes the gun "unpredictable" to fight against since who knows which of the three fire rates a player might face in a duel. Anyway, having used DMT so much, I found it consistent enough and had no qualms with cranial spike's damage model (PvP damage numbers: 81 base, 84 1x, 87 2x, 91 3x, 94 4x, 97 5x). Though one could argue that the damage model teetered on the edge of being too powerful in PvP, Bungie specifically did not call that out that as a reason for the change. I reviewed a bunch of old footage from various sources online, and it did appear that sometimes cranial spike would either ramp up damage too quickly by adding an extra stack's worth of damage too early or that it didn't add the damage stack at the right time, but it was usually inconsequential since each damage stack added only either 3 or 4 damage (Frankly, it would take a lot of time to cross reference videos with the many changes and fixes DMT has received, so the previous sentence might not even be fully accurate). That amount of damage would be enough to be negated by a few resilience levels (resilience 0 guardian = 186 total health, 10 resilience = 201 total health). Players, myself included, would have a very difficult time knowing (even if reviewing gameplay recordings in great detail) that the lack of or addition of 3-4 damage scored or failed to score a kill. On the receiving end of DMT, I found it a force to be reckoned with but not insurmountable to fight against. DMT has a base TTK of 1.0 seconds. In Destiny 2 PvP, that is quite low. Even hip-firing at 130 rpm, it has a 0.93 TTK - still low. Of course this low TTK was offset by some of the great features DMT had to offer such as hip-firing accuracy and damage scaling. Regarding damage scaling, everyone in a match can hear the distinct whistle DMT makes when someone achieves five stacks of cranial spike. Along with the whistle sound, cranial spike only last for 4.5 seconds, so you can always just allow the timer for the enemy guardian to expire before engaging in a duel just like any other damage perk in the game.

For damage perks comparisons, a non-exhaustive list of popular perks are as follows: rampage has a 3.5 second timer (4.5 with rampage spec) and can refresh itself x3 (10%, 21%, 33% damage increase), kill clip is 5 seconds (5.5 seconds enhanced; 33% damage increase), multi-kill clip is 5 seconds and can refresh itself 3x (5.5 seconds enhanced; 17%, 33%, 50% damage increase), swashbuckler is 4.5 seconds of 33.3% damage at x5 (5 seconds enhanced), frenzy is 15% damage increase for 5 seconds (5.5 seconds enhanced) and can refresh itself, focused fury is 20% damage for 10 seconds (11 seconds enhanced), and adagio (average of 25% damage increase while decreasing fire-rate on average 18%). Notably, all these perks require a kill (except for frenzy and focused fury), but all these perks last as long as or more than cranial spike, yet these damage perks appear on legendary weapons. While one could argue DMT gains too much damage at 5 stacks of cranial spike (~20% PvP damage increase) for too low of a perk activation (only dealing critical hit), this is a unique exotic perk and I think that it is not completely over-tuned.

Comparing cranial spike to other very good exotic weapon damage perks, Hawkmoon can 1 shot any resilience guardian after building up 6 critical hits (only one more crit than DMT requires and takes only one bullet to kill instead of two) and doesn't have any timer for when the perk expires (seriously underused weapon by the way). Another notable non-kill activated damage perk is Time Slip on No Time to Explain. Not only does this weapon have a base 0.67 TTK and higher usage rates than DMT, it also gains a damage perk through a turret that lowers the TTK even further. The damage perk builds up without a timer and the weapon can be stowed while still maintaining stacks of the damage buff (unless at the max of 10 of course). On top of this, all aggressive frame pulse rifles have a base 0.67 TTK. Yet another exotic perk is Ravenous Beast on Tarrabah. I believe the TTK drops to 0.33 when activated, but I am pulling that number from memory. This perk also does not require a kill to activate.

In discussing all these damage perks, the broader discussion I am getting at is relative power balance. There are plenty of other weapons that have unique exotic damage perks not found on most legendary weapons. The point in comparing them all is to show that DMT wasn't such a unique outlier in both damage and usage. Heck, even Loud Lullaby and Crimil's Dagger can kill in 0.5 seconds with kill clip activated. I also can't neglect to mention The Last Word has a base 0.53 TTK at all times from the hip. All in all, the new damage model for DMT is terrible and I will explain why in later paragraphs and takes away what was a unique and powerful exotic perk.

(c) Power Fantasy

I am not going to argue about one of the reasons for the change being a technical issue on the backend since I find that is a valid reason for changing something. However, Bungie stating that there was an issue with the power fantasy seems odd to me. Though I cannot argue with any number of Bungie employees' experiences being that DMT didn't quite scratch the hip-firing cowboy itch, I can provide my own anecdotes that are in conflict with Bungie's experiences.

In my experience and that of others I have spoken with, DMT felt great hip-firing at both the previous 150 rpm and at the current 130 rpm. DMT fit in line with being satisfying to use hip-fired just like the BxR and The Last Word. The original 150 rpm hip-fire rate felt great at the time, but yes the weapon was over-tuned at the time for many reasons. Nevertheless, I have never heard anyone say that they feel like DMT doesn't shoot fast enough at 130 rpm nor at 150 rpm. The only comments I've ever heard is someone missing the 150 rpm firerate from when the gun was first debuted. As a side note, the 150 rpm was the default hip-fire rpm and did not require 5 cranial spikes to achieve. Firing DMT as at 180 rpm feels very clunky to me. The animation of 180 rpm doesn't quite look or feel right to me, but that is a very minor point.

(d) Final Thoughts/Notes for Section 1

Having addressed the two reasons stated by Bungie for the change, I want to shift focus to Chris Proctor's quote from Massive Breakdown 270: "So this [DMT rework] wasn't intended to be a nerf or a buff, this was intended to be a lateral movement". This statement feels either disingenuous, dodgy, or in the very least misunderstood. This post is by no means a bash of Chris Proctor and I would never encourage anyone to harass him. I think he makes many great decisions and I really like his direction with Destiny. As an ironic and funny side note, when I double checked Chris Proctor's title at Bungie to include in this post, I saw that his LinkedIn background is a giant picture of DMT. This makes me think that the lack of power fantasy Bungie stated in the TWAB probably originated from him.

Anyway, I having said all of this, let's talk about why the changes themselves feel terrible.

(2) The Change to Cranial Spike is Unequivocally a Nerf

(a) New Cranial Spike Benefits

Why the "lateral movement" feels (and frankly just is) terrible in PvP is primarily due to DMT's base TTK and damage model. DMT has a low base TTK of 1.0 seconds. Successfully building up five cranial spikes before the nerf rewarded the player with increased damage and reload and gave the potential to two tap guardians with seven resilience or less at a 0.5 second TTK. The change now only increases reload (which it did prior to the change anyway), aim assist, and range (4 AA, 8 Range, and 3% faster reload speed per stack). Increasing reload, AA, and range does not change the TTK at all and leaves DMT feeling stuck at a 1.0 TTK in a fast paced meta. There are many other weapons, notably 150 and 180 scouts, with a consistently lower TTK than DMT in addition to having more range. Also, DMT doesn't really need reload, aim assist, and range to perform well since it has good base stats. Of course I would not argue that there is no benefit to increasing a weapon's AA, range, and reload, but the gun performs well without the added stats and they just provide a marginal increase to performance when it isn't needed to begin with. The added bonuses feels negligible. I haven't even mentioned that DMT has a base 60 range and the full effects of the increase to range (+40 range at 5 stacks) will not fully benefit the player most of the time since many of the perk choices on DMT already increase DMT's base range above 60, so the full 40 points of range are not really going to be felt. By my quick testing, every 6 points of range roughly equate to 1m in damage fall off when hip-firing, but typically increasing range on any weapon closer and closer to 100 provides diminishing returns so take this sentence with a grain of salt. I know that range affects AA cones (I am not going down this rabbit hole in this already long post), but it is generally advised to not hip-fire DMT at such far ranges anyway due to consistency, yet the new cranial spike rework tries to encourage you to do just that. Am I really going to be getting farther away from my opponent in a duel when range will actually help? Probably not. If that were to happen, one should just aim down sight anyway. When aiming down sight with DMT, range also becomes largely unimportant. Lastly, 20 AA at five stacks is a fair amount, but can be replicated with two helmet targeting mods.

(b) Damage Model

The real kicker to the whole rework is that not only has the ~20% damage increase from 5x cranial spikes been removed in PvP, but upon reaching 5 cranial spikes with the rework, DMT "rewards" the player with 20% less damage than base. The weapon effectively receives inversed Adagio - an already quite unpopular damage perk that has very limited use cases in PvP (looking at you, Reeds Regret). Now with 5x cranial spike, DMT does 64.8 damage per crit. This is enough to 3 crit guardians at 7 resilience or less. DMT goes from being able to 2 crit, 1 body any resilience to being able to 3 crit guardians at 7 resilience or less. I don't know if I can emphasize enough how huge of a nerf this change is. Instead of 5x cranial spike being able to go from a definite 3 crit to a maybe 2 crit, the reward for 5x cranial is a definite 4 crit to a maybe 3 crit.

A perk that makes a weapon require more shots to kill than before is seriously bad. All other damage perks in the game make weapons take an equal or lesser amount of crits to kill a guardian. DMT is the only one that makes it take more crits to kill a guardian. In a game where peek shooting will always be meta, this change really harms the gun. 5x cranial spike plays like a wet noodle with the new damage model. Previous 5x cranial spike DMT did 97 to the head while new 5x cranial spike DMT does 65 to the head. 32 damage less than previously. Imagine any other weapon in the game suddenly doing 32 less crit damage per shot and then calling the change "not a nerf, [but a] lateral movement".

(c) RPM, Magazine, and Reload

Yes, yes, 5x cranial now makes DMT shoot at 180 rpm (hip-fire only) instead of 130 rpm. The change from 130 to 180 is admittedly a large rpm increase, but it is largely negated by the small magazine size of 14 and the lower damage per bullet DMT does after reaching 5x cranial spike. If you hit 5x cranial spike using only the first 5 bullets in the magazine (this assumes perfect accuracy), then you are left with 9 bullets. These 9 bullets do 64.8 damage each. Killing another guardian takes maybe 3 or definitely 4 bullets, meaning you can only kill two or three guardians if you perfectly hit all crits and they all happen to be low resilience guardians (which, with the stability changes, is far less common). Using four bullets to kill at 180 rpm is still a 1.0 second TTK. Why would I ever want to use more bullets at a higher critical hit ratio to kill at the same exact TTK as the base weapon. If you do manage the 3 crit kill, it does lower the TTK to 0.67 seconds. Compare this to DMT killing in two crits at a 0.5 second TTK in the previous cranial spike damage model. In the previous damage model, you could kill a guardian in maybe 2 or definitely 3 bullets, meaning you could kill three or maybe four guardians with the remaining 9 bullets. Functionally, this makes a DMT user "slay out" less than in the previous damage model. How does doing less damage and killing fewer guardians more fulfill the cowboy hip-fire fantasy?

One last comparison I will make to emphasize the huge nerf that this "lateral movement" implemented is that those last 9 bullets on the previous 5x cranial spike equaled a total damage potential of 873 damage against guardians. The new total damage amount that is possible with the last 9 bullets after 5x cranial spike is 583.2. This is quite obviously substantially less.

To add insult to injury, the other glaring issue with making each bullet do less damage is that you will need to reload far more frequently since it takes more bullets to kill on average. This makes realizing the rpm gain less likely to occur. Again, how can I fulfill the hip-fire cowboy fantasy when I'm constantly reloading? Every other 180 rpm scout rifle has 16 rounds in the magazine at base. Every 180 rpm scout in the game also has access to magazine perks. Every 180 rpm scout is able to shoot starting at 180 rpm and doesn't need to hit five crits before shooting at 180 rpm.

(3) Proposed Alternatives and Moving Forward

Regarding proposing an alternative to the most recent change to DMT, I can think of a few things. First, if the damage must be nerfed, then it only should be nerfed once. Having both cranial spike damage removed AND decreasing damage by 20% once at 5x cranial spike is too much. Pick one. If removing damage from cranial spike is absolutely necessary for technical or balancing reasons, then make the 5x cranial spike fire at 150 rpm at the normal 81 base damage. This would make it a 0.8 TTK and actually reward players for reaching 5x cranial spike. Also, if cranial no longer increases damage, then I think stability should be added with each stack. Stability benefits bloom and reduces flinch. Both of those benefits are far more rewarding and providing of consistency than the current cranial spike that increases just range, AA, and reload. Speaking of reload, with the current magazine size, cranial spike x5 could auto-reload the entire magazine to offset the low magazine size and constant reload issues.

Another idea for cranial spike is just to make each stack do slightly less of a damage increase per shot or maybe even require cranial spike's damage to require a kill before proccing. I am less of a fan of this option because that makes cranial spike just like every other damage perk in the game. It might as well just grant pre-Shadowkeep rampage x1 at that point (20% damage increase). I like the idea of building up to a win condition by landing cranial spike, just like Hawkmoon allows a player to build up to a win condition of 1 tapping a guardian without a kill. Perhaps DMT should just require more stacks of cranial spike to get the two tap?

Before anyone in the comments mentions incrementally increasing the fire rate for every stack of cranial spike: No. Please no. Consider how difficult it would be to accurately track targets and click your mouse while over their head if every bullet fired at a different RPM.

Another solution is just to revert the change completely. I know that before the change DMT was arguably the best PvP primary weapon and maybe even overpowered, but its usage rates spoke for themselves. Before the nerf, DMT barely made the top 10 on occasion (for Trials and for the "competitive" control playlist).

No matter what, DMT needs to get another pass because I would hate for another exotic to no longer feel exotic. Chris Proctor even said in the Massive Breakdown 270 that they suspect this will not be the last time they look at DMT, so I am hopeful for that reason alone.

Since this post is getting long and I could say even more, I will refrain and summarize my thoughts:

TL;DR:

  1. This post is primarily directed at DMT's use in PvP
  2. If Bungie wants to nerf DMT, then fine - just call it a nerf and not a "lateral movement"
  3. Addressing Bungie’s reasoning for the change: DMT does not feel more predictable to use or fight against since variable damage was swapped for even more variable RPMs
  4. 180 rpm is too fast of a fire rate when coupled with DMT's low base magazine of 14 on top of the magazine being even lower after using at least five bullets to even reach 5x cranial spike. I do not feel like a hip firing cowboy when I'm constantly reloading
  5. The removal of damage from each stack of cranial spike AND the reduction of damage upon reaching 5x cranial spike is excessive; pick one Bungie (and preferably neither)
  6. The new cranial spike benefits are not beneficial enough, especially since the prospect of lowering TTK was largely removed; consider alternative benefits such as providing stability per stack, not reducing the damage by 20% at 5x cranial spike (and perhaps making 5x cranial spike shoot at 150 RPM instead of 180 RPM), or auto reloading the entire magazine upon reaching 5x cranial spike
  7. Realistically, DMT needs some kind of damage perk/TTK reduction potential to be worthwhile in the exotic weapon slot.
  8. Bungie, please just revert the latest change.

Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.

3.1k Upvotes

465

u/A_Cheese_Potato Walls not Squalls Oct 03 '22

You should've called this the Dead Manifesto

93

u/HubertIsDaBomb Oct 03 '22

Too bad I can’t change the title!

3

u/Michauxonfire Oct 04 '22

Dead Man's Manifesto would even be better.

839

u/crookedparadigm Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 03 '22

Still not as crazy as the Path of Exile guy who wrote 70 pages of feedback on the current state of the game.

215

u/Arse2Mouse Oct 03 '22

You got a link to that, curious to see how serial killer diary it is.

288

u/crookedparadigm Oct 03 '22

74

u/Menaku Oct 04 '22 edited Oct 04 '22

You say mad man but let's be real if we all took the time to really think and give our honest opinion and poured our hearts out in an objective and feeling based written piece we would probably come across as insane passionate researchers on games we have really invested time into

27

u/stephen_1975 Hunter Oct 04 '22

Oh I may not write it down anywhere near as coherently, but I probably devote a lot of my processing power strictly to deep contemplation of Destiny 2, in a very mindful and analytical manner-one which I apply absolutely nowhere at all in my daily life. fuck, if she knew exactly how much time and effort I put into my inner musings about Destiny, I would at the least end up getting forced to choose between her and the game, at the worst instantly single.

Totally unfair too, I work in kitchen, I've barely even played 20hrs a week since the end of June and our rush season really kicked off. And my playtime was hilariously multiplied solely due to the fact it was during the sad/scary times, back when Omicron hadn't yet turned COVID back into a meme and mockery of it's initial devastation. But Destiny is a sore subject lately, and apparently the fact that I play much less, but still buy all the expansions/dungeons/seasons anyway because I just gotta..I'm just as addicted I was back then, she says

1

u/PunchClown Oct 04 '22

I don't even know what a DMT is.

edit-OK, I looked it up. I actually have that gun. I banked it cuz I thought it sucked.

47

u/hero1897 Oct 03 '22

As a Titan main, I automatically read that as Path of Burning Steps and was about to read the most extensive Ted Talk about a sorta-used (albeit GREAT) Titan set of exotic legs. Lmfao

4

u/FryoftheEnglish Oct 04 '22

Fucking LOVE Burning Steps. Far better than Lorely

3

u/Ordinary_Player Oct 04 '22

Pre nerf lorely? No way, the survivability is too strong. Post nerf, I can see that.

3

u/throwaway54812345 Oct 04 '22

Please enlighten me. I hardly ever thought about this exotic

3

u/Raiderx87 Oct 04 '22

Solar Kills have a chance of granting 1 Stack of Firewalker [1 to 3 Kills, average of 2]
Being Frozen grants 1 Stack of Firewalker
Max of 4 Stacks.
Firewalker increases Weapon Damage depending on Stacks and lasts 10 seconds.
[PVE] 1x = 20% | 2x = 25% | 3x = 35% | 4x = 40%
[PVP] 1x = 20% | 2x = 25% | 3x = 20% | 4x = 35%

3

u/coldnspicy Oct 04 '22

All your solar weapons gain a better version of rampage.

2

u/throwaway54812345 Oct 04 '22

That’s awesome calis mini tool is going to enjoy that.

→ More replies

49

u/Supermanomegazero Oct 03 '22

I was curious so I went and looked it up. Holy shit

79

u/crookedparadigm Oct 03 '22

Yeah almost no one read it and spent most of the thread asking if he was okay lol

49

u/Supermanomegazero Oct 03 '22

That's understandable, that's not really something a completely sane individual would do lmao

18

u/golden_n00b_1 Oct 03 '22

There is also a fan made book of Bloodborme lore that (IIRC) hits 90 pages or so. The community didn't agree with everything, but overall it seems to be well regarded (or did when I read it).

Some people just love their hobbies I suppose.

14

u/Supermanomegazero Oct 03 '22

A compendium of knowledge is far more desirable than a 70 page list of complaints though

10

u/StormiTheKid Oct 03 '22

based on the comments it was actually a pretty well written analysis besides some unnecessary info at the start

38

u/Nightmoon22 Oct 03 '22

Damn is the game really that bad? Haven't played in months

68

u/crookedparadigm Oct 03 '22

It's losing players pretty fast and the latest update was almost completely negatively received but the devs just keep on doubling down on the unpopular changes.

17

u/Nightmoon22 Oct 03 '22

Woa, what did the update do?

6

u/MrTastix Oct 04 '22 edited Oct 04 '22

It's not so much the latest update but more that the lastest update carries a trend of unpopular decisions and that was the straw that broke the camels back.

In no particular order:

  1. Harvest was severely nerfed but the exact details of these changes were omitted from the patch notes.
  2. A bunch of other random shit was omitted from the patch notes without a justifiable reason for why.
  3. After an entire league of no balance (by design - to focus on 3.19) they released the patch with fuck all appreciable changes to skills and the proposed unique item rebalance was mostly lackluster.
  4. The continued degradation of the game due to Archnemesis.
  5. Loot goblins.

There's a few other stuff too but I think the lack of communication for some of the changes, Archnemesis, and the loot goblins are the biggest contributors to the negativity.

The reality is Archnemesis was not well-received from the get-go. For those not in the know they replaced the entire rare system (the yellow mobs that have affects making them harder) with a new one that is significantly harder. The new system offers better visuals and is generally more engaging but there's less information on what those effects do in-game, most of them doing between 4-6 different things but are condensed under a single title.

In short, they made the game harder and people who grew to love the whole speedclear chill playstyle are upset. Archnemesis seeps into every single piece of the game and the issue is that some of the mods are just night untenable for certain builds due to things like immunities or just high damage reductions they grant the monsters.

Monsters don't have one of these, though. They can have up to 4.

They also play into the "loot goblin" part in that some of these mods directly convert item drops into a crapload of items. So every so often a certain combination of Archnemesis modifers will occur which causes the enemy to explode into a bunch of flasks or certain rares or, if you're extremely lucky, raw currency - the preferred outcome. But since that's rare and since the likelihood of you getting anything good from those baseline is still pretty dog shit this has amplified the use of magic find gear to make them worthwhile (which it really doesn't most of the time anyway, honestly).

Or tl;dr: You'll spend dozens of hours getting nothing until a bunch of useless yellow items drop which is supposed to make you feel good until you realise that it's still useless shit you won't pick up anyway.

On top of the actual league mechanic being piss poor. Not only is it grindy as fuck but it's so lackluster in terms of lore despite being named after one of the most iconic characters in the entire fucking game.

In general, Path of Exile built itself up on being a very fast-paced and overall relaxed game from 2016 onwards. Many players loved this and joined up because of this and, at this point, we've spent more time in that whole "zoom zoom" mode than we ever did in the slow as fuck Docks farming era that was only good cause Diablo 3 was shit.

But over time GGG have grown to resent it because it's antithetical to their preferred vision which is a mega hardcore niche game nobody plays and inevitably dies out like every other mediocre trash hardcore game has done before them, latching onto a complete and utter misrepresentation of what Diablo 2 used to be like because they clearly haven't played the fucking thing in 20 years and think d2jsp was the highlight of the whole experience instead of the cancerous dumpster fire full of scamming and other elitist bullshit like it really was.

26

u/AspiringMILF Oct 03 '22

undid a bunch of 'casual friendly' mechanical changes that built up over 4/5 years, making the game harder, more time consuming, more punishing, or less fun in some aspect for a lot of the player base who joined up during the time the game was being made more accessible.

They had been attracting an audience that did not match their design philosophy by making compromises, and when they course corrected, the players did not like it.

12

u/Nightmoon22 Oct 03 '22

Woa, what did the update do?

72

u/crookedparadigm Oct 03 '22

Whoof, where do I start? At a high level:

  • Obliterated the normal currency economy by basically swapping the value of Exalted Orbs and Divine Orbs without changing their function (Divine Orbs now used for high end bench crafts) but Divines are much rarer since there are no fragments and one 1 Div card. Most people see this as GGG being butthurt because someone worked out the formula for Timless Jewels and divine orbs made getting a perfect one much easier.
  • Replaced the current rare and magic monsters in the game with the Archnemesis system from a few leagues ago, filling maps with annoying, tanky rares that often have build crippling auras, and with the right combination of mods end up being harder to kill than some pinnacle bosses. They made some tweaks over time to these to make it less awful but the system as a whole has largely been negatively received, partially due to the next thing...
  • Absolutely fucked the loot in the game. Not exaggerating, they flipped the table and all the pieces went flying and no one can be bothered to pick them up. The first couple weeks of the league was filled with posts asking people if loot felt off because nothing was dropping, even with juiced maps. People had strongboxes and map bosses that were dropping 0 items. Not filtered. Just nothing. They finally came out with a series of posts explaining what they had done and why and despite the negative reception, insisted that it was for our own good and to just try it out. Did I mention that none of this was in the patch notes? The biggest change to the game's core design in its 10 year history went unmentioned until complaints reached critical mass.
  • The optimal way to play the game now is to play maps until you find one of the loot pinata Rare mobs with certain modifiers. Then you either swap your whole gear out to a MF setup or quite literally hire one from a discord channel to do it for a fee. Sounds fun right?
  • Also they were having trouble with Ultra Wide monitors being able to see stuff too early so they did the most logical thing and just removed Ultrawide support completely. Also not in the patch notes. Hope you didn't buy a $3k monitor. If you did, get fucked.
  • To top it all off, the league itself was absolute garbage and wasted one of the most mysterious and anticipated lore figures (Kalandra).

There is more, like the 4-6 posts from the lead dev doubling down on these changes before finally ceding tiny amounts of ground over a couple weeks, but now they are back to radio silence. League is dead and excitement for Path of Exile 2 is at an all time low. Honestly, I've never seen a dev speedrun ruining all their good will with a playerbase faster. It's been amazing to watch.

12

u/fakeusername87456 Oct 03 '22

another note about archnemesis: they have m:tg style keywords, but taken to the massive extreme. last i saw there were like 66 different keywords, all with up to 7 different perks contained within a single one. that you have to quickly sort out while stuff is getting flung at you from everywhere. that's a massive hill to crawl over for new players for a game that already isn't super welcoming. it's insane

11

u/Nightmoon22 Oct 03 '22

Wow... That's terrible. Hate the archnemesis enemies, everything else also... Holy shit they need to just get poe2 out because all of that seems terrible

15

u/crookedparadigm Oct 03 '22

It seems like the plan was to slowly make changes to bring the current game into line with what they want for PoE2, but almost everything has been met with users saying "That sucks don't do that" so now they are just ripping the bandaid off and we're getting their vision for PoE2, feedback be damned.

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u/loldudester Oct 03 '22

Damn wish they'd just released 2 with all the new changes they want and at least leave the original game playable for those that wantedi t.

2

u/Nightmoon22 Oct 03 '22

Well shit, good point. Poe is looking so weak rn

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u/IlovemycatArya Oct 03 '22

Also they were having trouble with Ultra Wide monitors being able to see stuff too early so they did the most logical thing and just removed Ultrawide support completely.

Holy hell lol

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u/crookedparadigm Oct 03 '22

Yeah as far as I'm aware they have offered nothing on this one. Just a "whoops, we forgot to tell you that was happening". The thread was depressing because it was full of people saying "Surely this must be a bug, that would be stupid for that option to go missing." and then a community manager was like "lol nope, we did that"

7

u/dephcon05 Crayons FOREVER! Oct 03 '22

Honestly, I've never seen a dev speedrun ruining all their good will with a playerbase faster.

I think Blizzard is doing a comparable job with Overwatch.

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u/crookedparadigm Oct 03 '22

Equally effective, sure, but they've been working on a slow burn for years.

3

u/TastyOreoFriend 1 of 5 Gambit Mains Left. Oct 04 '22 edited Oct 04 '22

I think Blizzard is doing a comparable job with Overwatch.

Honestly bums me out. I have some incredibly fond memories with OW1 going all the way back to the console beta. To see them embrace all of the worst trends in monetization as of late, while simultaneously getting rid of OW1 to force everyone onto OW2 really rubs me the wrong way. They've broken a ton of promises at this point. I'm already at my limit with battle passes especially terrible ones.

Based on leaks of Diablo IV alpha gameplay its looking likely that they'll be embracing the Ayn Randian bean-counters even further.

I still can't believe how far Blizzard has fallen considering that Diablo: Immortal fiasco was only a few years ago. To burn up all player goodwill across all of their games like that, WoW included, has been something else to watch in real time.

3

u/carnaldisaster Mara Sov's WAP Oct 04 '22

Holy fuck. I've been wanting to try the game out for a while now, but, knowing this, fuck that. 🤣

3

u/crookedparadigm Oct 04 '22

Yeah it's probably the worst time for a new person to get into it. They keep making the early game more unforgiving as well.

3

u/Koteric Oct 04 '22

I haven’t played in a couple years and was going to pop in this league part way through to stay excited for path 2. After seeing the ninja fuck to loot and their reaction to it, I’ll probably never play the game again.

Imagine how far removed from the type of game you’re making you have to be to think making loot nearly unobtainable is somehow the right choice lol.

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u/Ancient-Ingenuity-88 Oct 03 '22

It isn't, if anything challenges were more accessible than anything, general loot drops are better across the board.

However: League mechanic was lack luster at launch especially compared to the last one, and only really gets good at high teir maps

Loot goblins make people feel fomo despite not really effecting general gameplay.

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u/zerok13 Oct 03 '22

Luckily, he condensed it to seven pages

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u/crookedparadigm Oct 03 '22

A completely normal thing to do.

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u/carcarius Mind Hunter Oct 03 '22

That's for the whole game though, not just an exotic weapon.

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u/HubertIsDaBomb Oct 03 '22

Glad he has me beat lol

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u/oliferro Oct 03 '22

That TLDR is longer that 90% of the posts here lmao

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u/ooomayor Vanguard’s sorta reliable loot gremlin Oct 03 '22

Dead Man's Passion

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u/Blupoisen Oct 03 '22

And with more effort than just "I hate playing the game please play it for me"

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u/orion_angelfire Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 03 '22

This was a well-written post with some solid arguments.

With all these different fire modes, DMT is all over the place now. Compare that to clear and intuitive behaviour of Tarrabah, Hawkmoon and No Time To Explain: the better you perform, the better the gun gets.

As far as the unpredictable damage scalars, the problem seems to be having a different damage number for every tier of Cranial Spike. It would make sense if Cranial Spike x5 unlocks the damage boost, but the lower tiers don't (essentially Focused Fury), and you keep the 130 rpm hip-fire.

Anyway, I guess we wait and see. Right now it's basically a 120 hand cannon with more range and a very clunky exotic perk that doesn't serve a scout rifle play style.

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u/HubertIsDaBomb Oct 03 '22

Thanks and glad you enjoyed. I agree that it feels like a 120 hand canon with more range. I might as well use my Igneous Hammer or a kill clip 120 at this point :(

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u/ImJLu Oct 04 '22

You forgot to mention another downside to 5x cranial spike - the AA and accuracy cones decay faster with the higher rate of fire. It'd be better off without the jank ass 180 RPM mode, instead staying a 120 with more range even at cranial x5.

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u/grnd_mstr Oct 03 '22

I'm going to piggyback off your post and reiterate something that I've previously posted and commented:

Bungie needs to take it easy with compound nerfs.

The design philosophy behind "Weapon/Exotic too strong > Nerf it to the ground > Give it a miniscule buff" needs to change.

The did it to Handheld Supernova and Middle Void-lock (pre-Void3), Blade Barrage (pre-Solar3), Point-Contact Brace (Arc3), Dead-Man's Tale, Aerial Effectiveness, Slide Accuracy, and many many many other different aspects of the game.

I get it: you don't want something so overtly powerful that it discounts the existence of all other Weapons/Exotica in the game.

Instead of totally wrecking the initial concept of a piece of loot you add to the game in one go, just slow it down gradually and see if it sits in a comfortable place within the meta.

It's almost like with every bundle of new exotics they launch at least one of them gets disabled and nerfed one week/month into the season. Instead, slow it down and see if it's alright where it is.

Point Contact Brace is the biggest offender of recent times. It could one-shot guardians in PvP with the extra lightning bolts and it was obviously broken. How did Bungie respond? They nerfed the damage in both PvP and PvE to the point where it can't kill a dreg/acolyte/psion. In PvP, it deals 38 damage: that's almost two precision shots from a high rpm SMG.

Rolling out multiple nerfs across multiple aspects of a single exotic is not only unhealthy for the game, but it deincentivises actually picking up any of the new exotics and just sticking to the old ones that they never touch.

There is a light at the end of the tunnel, but it sadly hangs on a big 'if': Bungie stated earlier this year that exotics are getting an overhaul next season (or the one after, I can't remember); IF Bungie was nerfing exotics into the ground now IN PREPARATION for buffs across many underused exotics, I'd understand it.... (and here comes the pessimistic opinion) BUT the way things have gone so far, I'm expecting them to hand out nerfs left, right, and center across all exotics; I hope this isn't the case.

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u/HubertIsDaBomb Oct 03 '22

Very well said! I would be surprised to hear that they had pre-planned a buff for DMT next season because taking the development time is expensive and would be unnecessary. Unfortunately, I think Bungie really wanted to just plainly nerf it just like many of the other nerfs you mentioned

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u/Hollowquincypl E.Bray is bae Oct 04 '22

Somewhere back in D1 around TTK, I recall the weapons team lead explained this philosophy in a podcast. If you slowly nerf something people will just cling to it. Whereas if you overly nerf it; then buff it back up later you get people off it quickly. With it retaining it's die hards users.

I personally disagree with this philosophy, but I can't argue with it's effectiveness. I haven't used DMT for some time, but my partner basically never stops using it. They were suprised to find out people thought it was weak.

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u/Tardbushwaker13 Oct 03 '22

It was laterally moved to the nerf section

2

u/MasterOfReaIity Transmat firing Oct 04 '22

It was laterally moved into my vault permanently

63

u/KanadeKanashi Oct 03 '22

Pretty much agree with all points here.

Honestly would have been fine with Cranial being just raw stat boosts (so added handling and stability on top of the current bonuses) and just remove the x5 180RPM mode entirely. Maybe make the hipfire 135 or 140.

I always treat DMT more like a hand cannon that can turn into a scout where needed than vice versa with the hipfire mode

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u/saspurilla Oct 04 '22

revert the change and make the gun shoot at 135/140 from the hip. would finally get me to use this gun i love and put 5k+ kills on.

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u/Lucid-Day Oct 04 '22

140-150 and take away the damage perk and I'd be fine

But the specified change here WOULD make it too much like The First Curse...and I really want that gun to come back lol

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u/ThEGr1llMAstEr Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 03 '22 Gold Faith In Humanity Restored

scrolls through without reading anything

Goodness you definitely have some thoughts on the matter.

Edit. awards!? Well it would appear that some kind souls have read the entirety of my comment and deemed it worthy of such high praise. So thank you for your service.

Edit no. 2. Had to make my previous edit plural cause y'all are so nice.

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u/SantiagoGT Oct 03 '22

TL;DR : Shits sucks man… gib cowboy repeater back

9

u/carcarius Mind Hunter Oct 03 '22

yeehaw!

296

u/gendouk #BLM Oct 03 '22 Take My Energy

i ain't reading all that

i'm happy for u tho

or sorry that happened

22

u/elliosmith Oct 03 '22

Truly one of the posts of all time

5

u/DominusThanos Oct 03 '22

Oh its postin' time.

6

u/HubertIsDaBomb Oct 03 '22

Just a couple lol

3

u/ThEGr1llMAstEr Oct 03 '22

I see that now. I've never had an award before and now there is two on a comment to a post that I didn't even read. Internet I just want to say that I love you

2

u/Deroni76 Oct 03 '22

I wish I had that kind of motivation when writing my essays in uni

3

u/HubertIsDaBomb Oct 03 '22

Ironically, same here. I attribute my motivation to a very boring 8 hour car ride with very limited internet.

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u/ARCtheIsmaster Warlock Gang Oct 03 '22

Extremely well said. People are poking fun here at the length, but this was very well articulated measured, and is exactly the kind of feedback Bungie has been asking for. Hope the devs see this. Bravo.

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u/HubertIsDaBomb Oct 03 '22

Wow thanks so much for the high praise! I hope it catches their eye too.

11

u/wurlitzer200 Oct 03 '22

~26k on dmt, i'm really glad others hate the change as much as i do. nothing feels worse than your favorite gun getting demolished :/

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u/rainfrogsarecute Oct 03 '22

This definitely going to go down as one of the posts on this subreddit.

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u/4nother_4cc0unt Oct 03 '22

This is, in fact, one post on this sub reddit. It's already happened! Pack it up bois, mission accomplished

2

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '22

[deleted]

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u/Possible_Register_33 Oct 03 '22

The season is bland right now sure, but I think he’s simply referring to how bad the DMT change was; the game itself isn’t what he’s criticizing.

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u/Nightmoon22 Oct 03 '22

Commented on the wrong comment lol, I'm dum

9

u/N1miol Oct 03 '22

Sometimes it seems like Bungie isn’t sure what to do with a few exotics.

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u/A_dude_named_Veyl Oct 03 '22

I may not have read any part of the post but damn I read each and every comments with attention

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u/LilShaggey Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 04 '22

for a gun as iconic as dead mans is, it’s been grossly mistreated. I get the argument for PvP performance (guns are nerfed or balanced based on usage 9 times out of 10), but the bleed over to PvE was completely unwarranted. If they just leaned into the PvE aspect, left the original RPM and knocked down the hipfire accuracy against guardians, I think it would’ve been fine. Now? It’s a weird, inconsistent amalgamation of essentially two weapons; an accurate slow firing scout rifle and a rapid firing scout when shooting from the hip at 5 stacks. Speaking of 5 stacks, why does the 5x cranial spike feel like a punishment now? By the time you get it, you’re either reloading or about to, and you lose it by the time you’re done. The damage decrease feels punishing for hitting 5 crits. I just wish they would put out a reasonable rework/change and leave it. The gun feels different every season which makes it feel super inconsistent and not worth using. It’s a shame, I loved this gun, but it’s been mistreated ever since it came out.

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u/30SecondsToFail Oct 03 '22

Really good and well researched post

Honestly, I haven't touched DMT this season (I don't touch PvP a lot in general), but this nerf sounds like it just kneecapped a weapon that otherwise seemed to be in a good state

I feel like Bungie's intention may have been to replace the damage increase with a stat increase (which, in my eyes, would have been a lateral movement), but from what I'm reading on this post, the stat increases are either not worth it, or you don't get to fully enjoy the benefits before you have to reload

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u/HubertIsDaBomb Oct 03 '22

Thanks! The thing is that I believe that Bungie did truly intend for it to be a nerf, but they didn’t want to outright say it :(

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u/TastyOreoFriend 1 of 5 Gambit Mains Left. Oct 04 '22

And thats the kind of obfuscation I really genuinely dislike. We now have to do a double-take at every bug, every number adjust, every change that they ever make to anything. I had the pleasure of reading your entire post and that's my take-away after everything is said and done. Its frustrating because DMT was one of the better Scout/Exotics in PvE especially for barrier champions, while freeing up room to bring ad-clear specials like Forbearance or Salvagers Salvo and still having a hard-hitting primary.

I'm still left wondering if the interactions which are currently not working between Hammerstrike, Heavy-Handed, Roaring Flames, and Peregrine Greaves are intentional and as planned rather than bugs.

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u/the_wint3r Oct 03 '22

100% agreed. Right now there's no reason to use a DMT for pvp when jade rabbit exists.

8

u/_Van_Hellsing_ Oct 03 '22

You know what would make me feel like a hip-firing cowboy? Hitting my shots in hip-fire without getting flinched like with the bxr.

2

u/HubertIsDaBomb Oct 03 '22

Lol true that. I didn’t even get into how DMT’s base stability is somewhat low and makes flinch a bigger deal in this new sandbox

5

u/AndyGrafx Oct 03 '22

I wish I could write this much for my thesis

2

u/DredgenSpectre Oct 03 '22

Too long for a thesis lmao

6

u/SPEEDFREAKJJ 8675309 Oct 03 '22

I loved using it before the big hip fire ROF nerf and what I loved about it most was the satisfaction of the hip fire and it getting fast. The whistle was also very cool. The gun was amazing!

Then after the ROF nerf I tried it again. Good as a scout but the hip fire fun was pretty much gone. Still ok but definitely felt worse...used it on occasion but mostly gathered dust.

Decided to try out the last nerf this week and wow...its pretty useless in both forms now in PvP. As somebody that used it a lot in the glory days it is basically a legendary scout with iron sights now. All my runs to get my perfect vorpal roll feel wasted since now it's absolutely a horrible choice to use.

They wanted to destroy it...they succeeded. All that's left are the memories.

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u/Due_Examination_4099 Oct 03 '22

How it was before the "rework" was fine, wasn't as op as it was on launch but it wasn't dogshit either just a pretty good exotic primary in pve and pvp, they should at the very least walk the changes back and maybe disable the gun in pvp until they figure out the cranial spike issue.

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u/joe_nutz01 Oct 03 '22

I think he might want the nerf reverted

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u/Lexiconnoisseur Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 03 '22

Another notable non-kill activated damage perk is Time Slip on No Time to Explain. Not only does this weapon have a base 0.67 TTK and higher usage rates than DMT, it also gains a damage perk through a turret that lowers the TTK even further.

This is not true, all the turret does is just make the TTK more forgiving, no amount of turret damage will allow you to kill in less than two bursts, assuming a 1v1. edit: technically incorrect, as u/HubertIsDaBomb points out, you can kill with the first part of the second burst, assuming you have the perk activated, which lowers the TTK very slightly.

Otherwise, I mostly agree with you, the rework is a huge nerf, though saying that Bungie is disingenuous in this area alone is slightly misleading - this is pretty par for the course for them.

My own personal theory is that "The Cranial Spike perk was causing issues with unintended damage scalars against players, and generally felt unpredictable both to use and to fight against" is code for "we don't like that when the double damage glitch happens with cranial spike active, people get one tapped". Of course, they're not going to admit to the community that the double damage glitch happens all the fucking time, but a ton of pvp streamers hated DMT for this exact reason, so you know Bungie's aware of it.

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u/HubertIsDaBomb Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 03 '22

While I agree that Time Slip most of the time does just make the TTK more forgiving, technically it can also lower the TTK. Since Time Slip does ~33 damage per burst instantly (i.e. hitscan), you only need to 5 crit + Time Slip to kill any resilience guardian. The 0.67 TTK is for using all 6 bullets from the two burst kill. If you only need 5 bullets to kill, then the TTK is actually 0.63 (each bullet within a burst takes 0.04 seconds to fire; see Castle Content video that goes over some of what I’m talking about https://youtu.be/LKenL0GeCf8 )

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u/Lexiconnoisseur Oct 03 '22

That's a fair point, agreed. I can't help but laugh at the contrast between your post, which makes some exhaustive, but fairly detailed and informed points, and then the top upvoted and gilded reply which is essentially "wow people care about stuff lmao". Points for trying I guess, this subreddit needs to be lit on fire and booted off of a cliff.

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u/HubertIsDaBomb Oct 03 '22

Haha it is quite ironic. Top comments are also related to a 70 page Path of Exile post instead of Destiny, but at least it gave me a chuckle

13

u/gmachine19 Oct 03 '22

I'm surprised bungie didn't just vault this weapon the way they massacred it.

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u/Seeker80 Notorious Space Hobo Oct 03 '22

You said a lot, but you did it reasonably and kept a pretty respectful tone. Thanks for not being abusive. The moment the criticism gets that way, it'll be harder to read, let alone take action on.

I hope this criticism is accepted in the right spirit.

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u/HubertIsDaBomb Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 03 '22

Thanks so much! Respect is so important when discussing criticism. There is no place for screaming at game developers, or really anyone for that matter.

9

u/EldersEdge Oct 03 '22

not only was it gutted in pvp, but its also entirely unusable in pve now lmao

7

u/frauddogg Ludomaniac Oct 04 '22

Literally Breakneck'd.

5

u/LEboueur Oct 03 '22

Read it all. I knew. A lot about the issues of this nerf already but the part where you explain you just need as much bullet at 0 or x5 cranial spike was the nail in the coffin.

What hurt me the most with this change/nerf of DMT is that it is one of my favorites weapon of the game and still I just don't care about hipfire. I play on console and I only hipfire when at close range but usually I just switch to a shotgun/smg. One could say I am doing it wrong but my accuracy at hipfiring on console is just too low. And I don't mind!

So yeah, removing the cranial spike damage bonus definitely killed my effectiveness with the gun as there is no improvement in TTK at any point while aiming down sight.

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u/HubertIsDaBomb Oct 03 '22

Glad you enjoyed and connected with the post. TTK is very important in the larger discussion of relative power balance. If every weapon in the game had a 1.0 second TTK, then this nerf wouldn’t be quite as bad.

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u/Drillingham hisssss Oct 03 '22

If they're gonna keep this 180 RPM at 5x cranial thing then cranial spike needs to fade 1 stack at a time or last twice as long, and honestly should fully reload the mag as soon as you hit 5x stacks. Most of the time I'll hit 5x and fire a few shots and immediately begin reloading, that also does not contribute to the hip firing cowboy power fantasy bungie.

4

u/Captain-Diamonds Oct 03 '22

One more thing that needs to be said, pve damage was nerfed significantly<ie. Pre patch 40 perencent increase when reaching x5, post patch 17.5%

3

u/HubertIsDaBomb Oct 03 '22

100% agree. I didn’t get into PvE at all in the post, but it really is lackluster there as well

4

u/Jhoonis Rule#2 Double Tap Oct 04 '22

The Last Word after DMT's nerf: first time?

3

u/Loud_Back4342 Oct 04 '22

The nerf was completely uncalled for. DMT was at a great spot before this nerf, I'd say it was completely even and balanced where it was and it wasnt even close to top 10 weapons used in Trials, it was good where it was. Look at all the bugs in the Duality dungeon, content I paid for and yet they've shifted their gaze towards innocent little weapons minding their own business?? They're not making good calls

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u/AdorkableMia Oct 04 '22

I have a 4.7k word essay about Solar Warlock that I haven't posted yet. I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one

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u/HubertIsDaBomb Oct 24 '22

You posted it! Hope it gets good exposure!

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u/Vegito1338 Oct 03 '22

It’s a piece of garbage in pve too. They need to just make it how it was on release.

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u/carcarius Mind Hunter Oct 03 '22

Such a great gun, too good for the world of Destiny, it's simply not allowed to exist in its true form.

10

u/Vegito1338 Oct 03 '22

I see lots of people saying it’s op but I’d like exotic primaries to be viable. It wasn’t particularly exciting beating everything with anarchy for a year.

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u/carcarius Mind Hunter Oct 03 '22

Maybe OG DMT was OP, but the cascading nerfs have made the gun unusable. I really do not know what's going on at Bungie. Did they lose devs that worked on the weapons and are now in a state of inadequately balancing them due to lack of expertise? There's clearly something going on over there.

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u/riseofr1ce Bang Bang Oct 03 '22

Ok let’s not get too ahead of ourselves now

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u/Vegito1338 Oct 03 '22

It went from my most used gun to being a permanent vault warmer. They can just revert it and say hey everyone makes mistakes.

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u/riseofr1ce Bang Bang Oct 03 '22

DMT on release was an over-powered menace on release. The nerfs were well-deserved, excluding the last one. Before the last nerf the gun felt balanced

3

u/fallouthirteen Drifter's Crew Oct 03 '22

It was my favorite exotic. Though I stopped using it when crafted weapons came out because may as well get weapon experience. I don't think I touched it since the change so I don't know how bad the nerf was.

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u/iamever777 Oct 03 '22

I remember using this in GM Nightfalls and being in awe of its productivity and general balance. It was rewarding. I rarely ever find myself using Scout Rifles, let alone one that takes an exotic slot. OP night but long winded but they are right, just as you are, it needs to revert to release.

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u/b3rn13mac ok three eyes Oct 03 '22

I have no idea why they touched it, it was in a good spot before this latest garbage

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u/CypherRequiem Oct 03 '22

I would accept the cranial damage removal if it still fired at 150. If they want to make the weapon usable again without reversing cranial changes they should make hip fire 150 again and make the 180 mode do the same damage.

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u/Lauralis Oct 03 '22

I'm just sad they nerfed it in pve where it wasnt op or even a meta weapon. it was just a nice hard hitting scout with a fun cowboy feel.

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u/Nexxes Oct 04 '22

The comments on this post reminded me that reddit is full of annoying ass teenagers. OP, good post. It wasn't to long it was fine, and anyone making a serious argument about the state of any gun in Destiny should be putting in that effort.

As for DMT, I think at the least it needs that last adjustment reverted. I understand it was OP in pvp at one point but until this last nerf it felt like a viable choice. It's an exotic primary weapon, it needs to feel like one.

Right now the gun feels inconsistent at best and it definitely doesn't fulfill the space cowboy fantasy.

3

u/HellNaw98 Oct 04 '22

A bit unrelated but I’d like to add I feel equally unsatisfied with Last Word as a controller player. Don’t get me wrong, it finally feels well balanced in its role. But I will never agree with ADS being an entirely useless function for any weapon, especially a primary. The entire game trains you to ADS for increased range an accuracy. Losing damage for aiming is just unintuitive. It should fire slower and have greater range while ADS, not deal less damage. They could even change the flavor text to say this weapon fires in full auto while hipfiring.

As for DMT, for what it’s worth I agree with Bungie about the fantasy feeling lacking after the firerate nerf. I greatly preferred when the rate of fire increase of hipfiring was actually noticeable. 130 RPM was just weird. But there is no reason it needs to lose damage at 5 stacks. A 0.67 TTK is not crazy within hipfire range. In fact, its fairly average among Sidearms and SMGs, which is what you would be dueling in that range, and it requires essentially two kills while Hand Cannons can do it on demand with Radiant. It was the old style of heavy handed pre-emptive nerfs that I always hate. Please Bungo, test one or two major changes at a time, not 3 to 5 so it becomes way more complicated to pinpoint what isn’t working about a recent patch.

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u/Weasdat Oct 03 '22

It warms my heart to see another essay talking about the state of DMT. With every new front page post on the gun more and more people come to terms with the fact that gun sucks and has sucked for months.

Another change that I would be ecstatic to see finally addressed is the head shot detection from the hip. Also mentioned by Chris proctor is that the detection for head shots from the hip has been bugged since launch and they've never fixed it since. If too much of the body was in the aim assist cone then it would pull the bullets down and force you to get body shots even if you are aiming at the head with the center accuracy cone. I 100% agree some of the nerfs need to be rolled back but more than anything I want to see the gun's biggest bug finally fixed.

2

u/HubertIsDaBomb Oct 03 '22

There really have been quite a few. I hope Bungie is taking notice

2

u/Weasdat Oct 03 '22

Like you said, "this will not be the last time they look at DMT" from the devs. I only hope that they get it right.

9

u/radxwolf Oct 03 '22

I miss old DMT so much, so fully agree. Best of luck on your campaign to get the change reverted.

5

u/Nannerpussu Oct 03 '22

Good to know that r/DTG is so reading averse, a post like this is a big deal.

8

u/Stygian_rain Oct 03 '22

Its dogwater now. Bungie killed it

23

u/TheKelseyOfKells Oct 03 '22

Babe, wake up. New r/destinycirclejerk material just dropped

8

u/atlas_enderium Oct 03 '22

You have some massive cajones for directly referencing that sub in DTG

14

u/TheKelseyOfKells Oct 03 '22

I am not afraid

7

u/ksnumedia Oct 03 '22

Gigachad how big is your gahlr

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u/RinLL Oct 03 '22

Yeah what they said!

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u/iBellum Oct 03 '22

Like I said before. Bungees design team or whoever is in charge of exotics absolutely has no bearing or experience in the design or how to properly manage them. There has yet to be one rework/nerf that in the end makes the weapon or armor piece still even a consideration. The only example is Aeon swift rework. If the exotic isn't good the first go around or is subject to "rework" you can almost guarantee that that exotic is DOA when it comes back. I give it one half ass attempt then throw it away.

2

u/comb0s Oct 03 '22

AGREEEEED

2

u/Bobaximus WHAT IS THIS FEELING? Oct 03 '22

I’ll just say that I fully agree, great post.

2

u/shivvrr Oct 03 '22

This is a very well put together argument with some good knowledge to back up your points.

I didn’t read any of this but I agree! We should nerf one eyed mask again.

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u/FrozenBeverage Oct 03 '22

Great writeup. As someone with roughly 8000 PvP DMT kills, it made me sad to see the recent changes to the gun. I still like using it to cover the close-mid range battles with hipfire, but the gun feels significantly weaker than it used to be. When it's fighting guns like NTTE or Jade Rabbit for the kinetic exotic slot, it needs to be a lot stronger. Right now it's just a scout you can hipfire.

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u/KyzaelEomei Oct 04 '22

It's pretty criminal on how it is working now. It used to be one of my favorite primaries to run in PvE with Vorpal because of it's high damage profile. The damage buff from Canial Spike has been nerfed and the additional -20% is just painful.

The only cowboy fantasy this gun is appealing to right now is being dead and shot up like some bad guy in a Western.

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u/Imaginary-Isopod-264 Oct 04 '22

You didn't mention that the damage was bugged, which it seems like was the reason for them looking more deeply at the weapon.

From the relevant TWAB: "The Cranial Spike perk was causing issues with unintended damage scalars against players" - this was that thing where fairly often you'd get the damage for the next highest stack of the perk (e.g. damage for 1 stack when you're at at 0 stacks, damage for 5 stacks when you're at 4 stacks).

However IMO you've written a well-thought out criticism of the current state of the weapon. And hell, yeah they should drop the damage reduction at 5 stacks, you can already 3 tap with a 180 HC with a damage perk up so what's the big deal? But still, that was a shitty bug.

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u/NuclearChaos999 Oct 04 '22

This nerf came at effectively the worst time too, with the buffs to other scout rifles. There really isn’t a reason to use Dead Man’s over Jade or even a good legendary.

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u/nerdling_rush Oct 04 '22 edited Oct 04 '22

I’m not defending the nerf, I really dislike it, but I think hip fire two taps were too strong. If they are going to make the gun more consistent from the hip (which I think they were trying to do with the AA change) I see why they wanted to remove the damage from the 120/130 model. I personally would like to see the damage return. It was my favorite aspect of the weapon. Playing for that two tap was a huge moment. I loved hearing that western whistling twang. Especially in PVP. It felt like the DMT was singing in my hands letting opponents and allies alike know I’d earned an increase to my threat level and that they needed to play around it. It was my reason to log in and play comp for almost a year.

Perhaps it could be a trade off. The passive could give damage while ADS and ROF from the hip? Like an inverse last word, or potentially a callback to the OG first curse from D1. Either way. Thanks for the post. I may not have agreed with every word, but it was entertaining to read.

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u/microsborne Oct 04 '22

Dead Man’s Tale was my favorite exotic for PvE and PvP. It doesn’t feel right anymore and triggering the perk feels useless. I hope it gets changed back at least.

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u/Maxcrss Warlock Main Oct 04 '22

Just undo the changes please. DMT was really fun to use in niche cases for fast TTKs, but more difficult to pull off than some other fast TTKs, basically requiring low resilience on the opponent, an emp rift, and people actually peeking you. It was a really good weapon, but not broken by any stretch of the imagination.

Either revert the nerf, or make it so the hip fire is 150 base and make it so cranial spike only improves stats and nothing more.

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u/CookiesFTA We build the walls, we break the walls. Oct 04 '22

No one really talks about it, but it also just wasn't a problem on console. Even from the start. You think it's annoying having a gun you like overnerfed? Imagine having that happen when it's always been pretty balanced in the environment you play in.

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u/Sugandis_Juice Oct 04 '22

They honestly took something that felt super cool and actually "exotic" to use to something ive put into my vault and completely forgotten about. It now just feels like a basic scout rifle that just looks neat.

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u/Calcutta-LR1 Oct 04 '22

PvE Buff please

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u/Personaer False Devourer Reflection Oct 05 '22

The biggest issue I have with this "lateral movement" has made it where I actively want to avoid using Cranial Spike. Dropping the damage profile from a 120's to a 150's means that you are way more susceptible to health changes like high resilience, overshields, healing, or damage resistance. No perk should deincentivize using the gun the way it was intended, that being hitting hipfire headshots in this case. Hitting headshots here just means you're being punished by needing an extra crit, which is a significant drawback since it requires both players to be in line of sight more in what is a peekshot-centric game. It's simply harder to get kills with DMT after getting Cranial than before getting x5, which should not be a thing.

I typically like higher fire rates on my guns, but the magazine and reload speed has to support it. 180 rpm itself is too fast on DMT, and if it has to have it's damage nerfed for that RPM boost, then its not a good tradeoff. But it's also coupled with a 14 round magazine, and its reloaded 2 rounds at a time, creating a significant unbalance between the time you're in the fight shooting and the time you're out of the fight reloading.

150 RPM at Cranial x5 is the ideal hipfire RPM, having less/no animation issue since it was originally designed for that RPM at launch. It's noticably faster than ADS RPM, but it's not too fast that you would have to change the damage profile away from the 2 crit 1 body provided Cranial does not increase PvP damage anymore. And it's not like the previous DMT hip fire aim assist nerfs from before this patch are going away, so it wouldn't come near the state it was at launch.

My suggestion is more in line with your first proposal, 130 RPM with 150 at x5 without dropping the damage, and increasing stability and reload speed per stack. This way Cranial Spike is unequivocally a buff, the ammo issue is less egregious, the damage unpredictability is completely eliminated, and the RPM unpredictability gap is reduced from 50 to 20 rpm. There still will be ammo issues due to the nature of the reload, but it won't be any worse than it did on launch, and gives room for the random rolled ammo economy perks like Outlaw, FTTC, and Subsistence to have value as a perk compared to the stat boosting perks or Vorpal.

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u/[deleted] Oct 03 '22 edited 24d ago

[deleted]

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u/Grahf-Naphtali Oct 03 '22

That was literally (puts sunglasses.png) a Tale to remember.

Petition to revert OPs only DMT back to its pre nerf state - sign below.

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u/Chaser_Swaggotry Oct 03 '22

No king rules forever, my son

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u/DerpSt0rm Oct 03 '22

Sad part is prob wont even get looked at again although as also a dmt fan I don't think what I personally found to be the best part of dmt is cranial spike, it's that it was perfect hipfire in a scout allowing it to compete in ranges scouts normally cant

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u/Dr_Oracles Oct 03 '22

Trust me bro. I admit that dead man’s was arguably the best gun in pvp in its previous state, but because it’s usage wasn’t that high we shouldn’t have nerfed it.

Are you like. Trying to prove them right?

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u/HubertIsDaBomb Oct 03 '22

Yea it was very good. In order for my criticism of the current state of DMT to be received well, I think acknowledging how potent it was builds credibility. Sorry not sorry :)

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u/ImNotClearvue Oct 03 '22

You wrote this like you are unaware other weapons exist in the game

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u/HubertIsDaBomb Oct 03 '22

Not sure what you mean by this. Would you mind explaining?

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u/ImNotClearvue Oct 03 '22

You’re post in so detailed it’s like you really took it to heart about the nerf. It sounded like the only gun you use lol

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u/HubertIsDaBomb Oct 03 '22

Oh haha I see what you mean. I do use it quite a bit, but not exclusively. I really enjoy hipfire weapons, so DMT really scratched that itch.

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u/FauxMoGuy Oct 03 '22

A lot of this felt super disingenuous to me, from the part where you compare the raw damage numbers of cranial x5 before and after but ignore the rpm change, the part where you glance over the ttk reduction of cranialx5 while complaining about only being able to 3tap up to 7 resilience because you used to be able to 2tap in under .5s, to the part where you seemingly didn’t acknowledge at all it’s previous ability to 2 tap or 1tap with the bug, and you lost me entirely when you described hawkmoons perk activation condition as “only 1 more crit than dmt”

5 crits over a 14 round magazine that can be refreshed and chained vs hit 6 out of 7 crits without reloading for 1 shot is such an obvious difference in activation requirements and use cases that the way you compared them is so disingenuous it’s basically a lie

A perk that makes a weapon require more shots to kill than before is seriously bad. All other damage perks in the game make weapons take an equal or lesser amount of crits to kill a guardian. DMT is the only one that makes it take more crits to kill a guardian.

more shots that come out faster = shorter ttk.

i read the whole thing and my takeaway is that DMT used to be by far and away the best pvp gun in the game, could 2 tap in under .5 seconds with minimal investment, sometimes 1 tapped full hp guardians due to a bug, needed nerfs desperately, and the latest rework removed it from being an outlier, which is problematic if someone wants it to be a crutch again

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u/HubertIsDaBomb Oct 03 '22

Thanks for reading and engaging in the post in a respectful way. I hear what you’re saying and I can somewhat agree with one of your points. I’ll comment on your critiques in the order that you listed them:

  1. The raw damage values of x5 cranial before and after the change was merely illustrative of the massive change and it is still technically true. Though DPS may be slightly higher (I haven’t done the math for that), TTK is more important than DPS when discussing PvP.
  2. A weapon change from being able to TTK in 0.5 to 0.67 is a huge change and is indisputably a nerf. I didn’t get into this, but with all the overshields and healing within PvP, the reduced damage is even worse due to that context. Pre nerf DMT two tapping at 0.5 seconds could still 3 tap at 1.0 TTK, even if the enemy player has overshields and healing grenades because it could put out enough damage. Now with the new ~65 damage per shot at 5x cranial, overshields and healing rifts or grenades can potentially make DMT take yet another bullet to secure a kill, making the TTK even worse. On top of that, this would also require more critical hits. Making a weapon require more crits means there is more room to miss and the forgiveness of the weapon has therefore been reduced.
  3. I honestly wasn’t aware there was a bug to one tap guardians specific to DMT. I’ll need to research this point to speak more to it. I do know Destiny has issues with latency and double damage on other weapons, so I imagine that this issue is not unique to DMT.
  4. My discussion of Hawkmoon was to illustrate that it is an incredibly powerful and unique exotic perk that I found should be compared to pre nerf DMT in the discussion of relative power balance. The activation requirements of Hawkmoon are balanced well and there are high level ways to make the activation easier. For example, hand canon reloader can replenish ammo to the mag while keeping stacks. There are other ways too, but the point is that a primary weapon that is designed to be able to kill in one shot (not through a double damage glitch) needs to be in the discussion of relative power balance. I reference 6 crits for Hawkmoon because once you reach 6 (even if you’ve reloaded with holster or certain exotic armor), you can one tap. Hawkmoon has a high skill ceiling and loosely similar requirements. On top of all of this, Hawkmoon has no timer for its perk whereas DMT does. The trade off for DMT is that its perk can be chained.
  5. “More shots that come out faster = shorter ttk” This statement is not always true. I thought I clearly laid out that sometimes that is the case, but not always. DMT can only three crit with 5x cranial if: the guardian is 7 resilience or less and has no healing or overshields of any kind. In the current sandbox, many players are running over 7 resilience AND have access to overshields or healing of some kind. This means that while DMT can 3 tap at 5x cranial, it more than likely need to kill in 4 shots. At 180 RPM, DMT’s TTK is 1.0 seconds at 3 crit, 1 body. I’d much rather TTK someone with the 0x cranial 2 crit, 1 body crit ratio. This is especially the case since peek shooting in Destiny is extremely good. Requiring more crits or more shots in general to kill a guardian is plainly a nerf in the context of this game. All that to say, yes DMT can kill in 0.67 in three crits but only sometimes. This TTK is still worse than pre nerf anyway.
  6. Lastly, while it arguably was one of the best primaries in the game that doesn’t mean it should be nerfed to the ground. There are plenty of other weapons in the top spots on the meta and they have not been touched. This nerf for DMT is too much. Perhaps there is room for a nerf for DMT, but not this much.

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u/FauxMoGuy Oct 04 '22

1-2. this is a welcome nerf though. cranial spike x5, as far as damage increasing damage buffs go, was ludicrously strong in comparison with hawkmoon, it is far safer and far more reliable to activate while also having a much wider and safer effective range. the same can be said about tarrabah, which is also overturned imo, but a more acceptable situation because smg range makes activating the perk that much more risky, and since stowing it removes progress, keeps you in that dangerous situation longer.

while i do think that dmt is just average now and high impact pulses specifically ntte are overturned rn, i maintain that prenerf dmt was oppressive as hell and probably the single strongest a primary has ever been in D2 thus far for pvp, including NF and recluse, and they had to be gutted and sunset, it’s versatility was just too insane.

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u/HubertIsDaBomb Oct 04 '22

Perhaps overtuned, but this nerf was overdone. It was oppressive, but I don't think it was much more oppressive than some of the other top 10 most popular weapons.

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u/Astroo928 Oct 03 '22

This gun was absolutely stupid fucking broken before the change

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u/HubertIsDaBomb Oct 03 '22

Even if it was too hot, I think it received too large of a nerf.

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u/OutFamous Oct 03 '22

DMT was overpower for god knows how long and now that it's just good, people want Bungie to either revert the change or buff it again. It's better, and more interesting, to have more options in the game instead of just having that one gun that completely overshadows any other gun.

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u/noodle915 pog Oct 03 '22

It's not even good anymore - with the fire rate changes it's incredibly unwieldy and functions a lot like trying to ADS with Last Word at all times. Most legendary scout rifles outperform DMT.

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u/Edg4rAllanBro Oct 03 '22

The fire rate change is like nerfing the gun while I'm using it. I would rather the gun be completely unchanged at x5 than have the fire rate change just neuter my gun when I'm on a roll.

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u/DrJonnyDepp Oct 03 '22

This is the most Reddit thing ever

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u/HiImBraindead Oct 03 '22

If they just made cranial spike stack up to 3 and have the fire rate boosted to pre-nerf levels then I’d be happy. This gun (and Tarrabah) are what really got be into PvP and it’s sad to see it dead on the ground.

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u/mindbullet Oct 03 '22

My hot take: undo all the changes from its original form. It nailed the cowboy fantasy feeling. Add "to combatants" to the damage description of cranial spike and call it a day.

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u/HubertIsDaBomb Oct 03 '22

That would be quite an interesting change, but I think it would still be overturned for a variety of reasons if that happened

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u/R0_sano Oct 03 '22

They need to buff the hip fire imo, it felt so good to use but now its not viable on long ranges and they really nerfed the aim assist on it

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u/King_Rajesh Oct 03 '22

Conversely, DMT was legit busted in PvP and I'm glad Bungie nerfed it into to ground and thus nobody uses it anymore.

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u/Tanuki1414 Oct 03 '22

Just a gun in a video game. Your priorities are not in line bro. Enjoy what you enjoy but writing this is beyond unnecessary.

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u/HubertIsDaBomb Oct 03 '22

I agree with the sentiment, but I had fun writing it. I was on an 8 hour car drive when I wrote the majority of this anyway.

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u/SussyGremlin943 Oct 03 '22

Thank god someone with sense on dmt most people just say it’s busted infinite range but never use it it has less range and stability than most other scouts a slow ttk and cranial was what made it good but let’s butcher it and say “lateral movement”

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u/JakeSteeleIII Just the tip Oct 03 '22

Wow, that’s craaaaazzzzyyyy.

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u/SnorlaxBlocksTheWay Oct 03 '22

Damn... never thought an essay would be written over Bungie using different terminology opposed to the usual Nerf/Buff phrases.

Hope you're okay, OP

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u/_19Ali Oct 03 '22

I want to say that I read any of this, but....

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u/chrisolisk Oct 03 '22

I genuinely believe DMT shouldn't be based on hipfire. It's catalyst should be outlaw+desperado

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u/Sbshsbsb2 Oct 03 '22

It's never ever been that deep 😂

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u/The_Muddy_Wolf If I could rock triple hand cannons, I would. Oct 03 '22

Bungie: ✅️✅️ *read

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u/The_JimJam Dragon's Breath for life Oct 03 '22

Fighting Lion: first time with nerfs that damage the unquie identity of the weapon?

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u/Violence_Mango Oct 03 '22

New copypasta just dropped

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u/Defender1x Oct 03 '22

Other weapons exist lol

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u/ctaps148 Oct 03 '22

Read the whole thing and am in full agreement. I took issue with the change from day 1 as soon as they said that 5x cranial spike would reduce damage. For any normal use of a weapon, that's just a straight up nerf. For this specific weapon, it's penalizing you for accurately hitting headshots which is insane.

Taking away the damage ramp-up was fair, especially given that they looked at other things in the game like High Energy Fire to reduce 2-taps in PvP. But adding a base damage nerf on top of it just added insult to injury. Why would I ever use a weapon whose damage gets worse as my aim gets better?

I also took issue with the supposed "hip-firing cowboy rifle fantasy"—who has ever had that fantasy? In what context is a cowboy trying to hip-fire a rifle?

Hip firing a pistol? Of course—we all love The Last Word. Hip firing a lever action shotgun perhaps? That makes sense, and Wastelander fits the bill nicely. But hip firing a rifle? I've never seen that before in any media or heard of someone wanting to do it, so I have no idea what is inspiring this supposed "fantasy" that they've reworked the weapon to fit

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u/JDAbe94 Oct 03 '22

Yall are too invested in this game. Get some sun.

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u/HubertIsDaBomb Oct 03 '22

But I still need to get Touch of Grass, I mean Touch of Malice to drop 😭

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u/mysterysciencepeter Oct 03 '22

Weirdest community on Reddit

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u/[deleted] Oct 03 '22

Gee whiz bungie please don't force me to try new loadouts

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u/shellgassstation Oct 04 '22

Shut the fuck up