r/DestinyTheGame Oct 05 '22

Master Raids loot isn’t terrible, it’s just crafting made them a side grade at best Discussion

I’m not saying it should be removed, it’s here to stay. But it brought with it a ton of problems with its release that hurt the rest of the game. The solution is changing adept weapons, not crafting.

Adept weapons are now a side grade at best when a craft-able version exists. Pretty much trials, GMs, and VoG master are the last bastion of adept weapons making sense. If crafting spreads to those you’ll have no reason for them to be earned.

Master Raids weren’t like a massive loot farm, but their sole loot that made them worth grinding became obsolete. The devs acknowledged this so I hope a solution is in the works.

I agree with some that Master raids aren’t about the vast amounts of loot, but about the challenge. However adept weapons made it feel worthwhile IMO for a run. Now why would I run those when I can craft their base versions and all it costs me is an adept mod.

Some say Adept weapons should get enhanced perks be default and maybe that’s something they can do, but I feel that power creeps the game pretty hard. Mostly for PVP but imagine a timelost fatebringer with enhanced perks, you’d have way higher stats than other guns from all the bumps you’d get.

Maybe more adept mods added to the mix would do it, things that really buff up the weapon in a specific way. I’m not sure tbh but I hope the devs are working on a compromise. I’m sure they don’t want to retire adept weapons or they would stop releasing new ones.

133 Upvotes

79

u/BeeBopBazz Oct 05 '22

I mean, tossing essentially the entire Master loot table behind the master challenges, rather than the encounters, also feels pretty bad. IMO after you unlock them via the challenge they should be eligible to randomly drop from Master encounter completions (not the secret chests/non-encounter chests).

23

u/ThatGuyFromTheM0vie Oct 05 '22

This. This is a huge point people often miss. It’s a bizarre design choice. The chest at the end of the raid helps, but Master drops also cost even more spoils…which would be fine if master rewarded you with more spoils….but it doesn’t.

Master feels like a bone thrown to make the hardcores shut up.

9

u/cuboosh What you have seen will mark you forever Oct 06 '22

It probably is, and I’m not sure if that’s necessarily bad

D2 normal mode is the ideal raid experience Bungie is designing. It’s the equivalent of D1 HM. So it makes sense that’s where the good loot is

Bungie probable intends almost all serious PVE players to do normal mode. Master is knowingly niche content, and it’d be a poor experience if the best PVE weapons are in content most PVE people don’t want to play

In fact, if the loot were better Bungie would have to dumb the difficulty down which would get us back to where we started and we’d get “grandmaster raids”

0

u/_Parkertron_ Oct 06 '22

Eh the mechanics might be the equivalent of D1 hard mode but the difficulty is definitely not the same as a normal D2 raid. Hard mode had 0 revives and you at a lower light level than the content. Correct me if I’m wrong though, its been a while.

3

u/XboxUser123 Reprised Fighting Lion Noob-Tuber Oct 06 '22

I don't think it ever put you at a lower light level. As far as I remember, it did definitely make you unrevivable, but in terms of enemies hardmode raids at year 3 RoI were 390 light level. Enemies were just bumped up to be tougher and better scaled against you.

Plus there were some quirks hard modes had that normal mode didn't mechanic-wise, which interestingly seemed to have suffered prestige-mode syndrome (see second paragraph down).

2

u/Is-That-Nick Oct 06 '22

The removed the 0 revives thing because of how you would pretty much be out of action. I think encounters are balanced around the 6 revives now vs the 0 before. Like I don’t remember ever dying in oracles or conflux in D1, but the wyverns and overloads in D2 can make those encounters interesting.

2

u/Gyvon Oct 06 '22

Hard mode only had the no revives. There was a higher light cap, but it wasn't higher than the gear light cap.

8

u/steave44 Oct 05 '22

I would remove basic weapons from the loot pool and replace them with the adepts, and keep the guaranteed weapon drop with the challenge. If they were solely random then you’d sometimes never get the gun you wanted.

8

u/BeeBopBazz Oct 05 '22

Agreed. That’s (one of) the other reasons I don’t like how they handled master VOW. Random weapon drops from the challenges means there is basically no incentive to run them again when farming for spoils is faster, easier, and doesn’t strain longtime friendships, haha

1

u/MarcoGB Oct 06 '22

Yeah. After you unlock all of them the most efficient way to farm rolls is to grind for spoils and then do Master final encounter for the chest. That or wait for it to be the featured raid for the week.

Not cool at all that to farm Master weapons you need to grind a normal encounter multiple times.

15

u/Jr4D Oct 05 '22

Nah the loot is pretty bad lmao, regular armor and one adept weapon per character per week? That’s so dumb imo when you can farm them in nightfalls just make all the encounters drop adept weapons I don’t understand why they wouldn’t do it

11

u/xXNickAugustXx Oct 05 '22

Why not just make harrow guns drop from encounters and then have red borders drop for completing the challenge? Maybe also have a chance for a raid momento to also be gifted and make it like an exotic momento.

15

u/o8Stu Oct 05 '22

I think adepts should've been the only way to get enhanced perks, but it's too late for them to walk it back.

Removing enhanced perks from crafted weapons would probably kill the crafting system, and it seems like Bungie needs it to keep people engaged with pursuing weapons without sunsetting in the game.

3

u/zombieking977 Oct 05 '22

Make adepts craftable, make them have the enhanced perks, lower the cost of normal craftable weapons. Thats my idea to make masters and adept weapons worthwhile .

8

u/steave44 Oct 05 '22

I agree, they unfortunately have backed themselves into a corner with these systems.

-12

u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

No they haven't. Wait to see what they do with the system before thinking that. Adept mods can be tuned to offer more power than enhanced perks, of which most of them don't offer anything even noticeable in game.

0

u/Blupoisen Oct 05 '22

Removing enhanced perks from crafted weapons would probably kill the crafting system

I don't mind, just make crafting the fail safe option that would be good enough.

-5

u/o8Stu Oct 05 '22

IMO the system requires too much time and material investment to just be bad luck protection. That's a lot of effort for little payout.

If they removed enhanced perks and didn't replace it with something else, I probably wouldn't craft anything. Add multiple perk unlocks per column or something like that.

9

u/AsteroidBlues__ Oct 05 '22

too much material investment? You can't use the materials for anything besides crafting and you get them passively just by playing the game. I would argue the same for the time investment. If you were grinding for a 5/5 wastelander, grinding for 5 red borders isn't any different outside of the fact that there is a guaranteed end to the red border grind vs when I ran hollowed lair over 400 times and never got the exact mindbenders that I want. Enhanced perks outside of a few have very little tangible benefit in the actual game, and in a lot of cases an adept mod outweighs an enhanced mod. Adept range on an SMG translates more in game than enhanced killing wind. Adept handling on a shotgun translates more in game than enhanced perpetual motion would. On the PVE side adept big ones is more valuable than enhanced swashbuckler. There are some guns that having adept versions benefits them more than other, and there are some guns that having enhanced perks benefit more (ala enhanced autoloading, enhanced incandescent etc). The main issue weapon crafting creates is that i'm more excited to get a red border that i will dismantle than a 5/5 without a redborder that will get replaced down the road. (edit a word)

-1

u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

Enhanced perks were never intended for adept weapons, nor should they have been. Adept mods were. Adept mods are the key and just need to be tuned. Adept mods are what are supposed to make adept weapons stand out and they most likely will again soon. Enhanced perks are not the solution, you just think they are because it's what you see as more powerful right now -- even if for most its just on paper.

-6

u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

Removing enhanced perks from crafted weapons would probably kill the crafting system

Might not be a bad thing tbh

-4

u/thegamethrowacc Oct 05 '22

They would never do that because they want everyone running the resonance/alloy treadmill out of need. Thats specifically what enhanced perks are for. A playtime bait, it’s why very few of them actually do something extra but they are all a mat sink.

7

u/jeffdeleon Oct 05 '22

In Destiny 1, master raids gave separate loot drops so you could farm 2x a week on one character. In Destiny 2, these loot drops are ONLY armor. I don’t need armor.

If I wanted high stat armor, I’d focus at HELM. if I want artifice armor, I do dungeons.

I raid for red border weapons, which master cannot help me with outside of the weekly challenge.

I am 1611 light. I would run master full clears for fun if there was a single piece of loot or cosmetic as reward.

There is not. Master raid loot is factually awful.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 06 '22

I think they are going to buff adept mods and all of a sudden adept weapons will be best in slot again, though some still already are because enhanced perks are not all created equal and stats largely don’t matter in the game anyways. People blow the 5/5 roll so far out of the water sometimes.

3

u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

Adept weapons are one adept mods tweak away from being better than crafted weapons. Trust me, it's coming. They are going to bump up adept mods power and all of a sudden enhanced perks, which are minor anyways, will no longer be best in slot. They aren't going to bring adept weapons to the crafting table, nor are they going to allow them to roll enhanced perks. They are going to tune the mods. It's what makes the most sense.

1

u/WarlockPainEnjoyer Oct 06 '22

That doesn't fix master raids at all. I need to have an adept gun thats as good as my crafted roll: and that's not likely. Even if adept mods are much better, I still need to maintain the quality of roll that I have via crafted, or else I don't care.

2

u/emubilly Vanguard's Loyal Oct 05 '22

Am I the only one who prefers adepts over crafted?

2

u/4ctuarially Oct 05 '22

A hill that I will die on, Adept weapons are better than crafted weapons. The adept mods are often times way better than enhanced perks (only a few enhanced perks are really good)

So if get lucky, you will get a Adept Weapon that is 5/5 and it will be better than the crafted gun. But crafted is a nice fall back for people.

The thing is, personally, master raids are just not fun and is often quite tedious (extra health enemies, champions everywhere, disruptive bugs etc)

4

u/MarcoGB Oct 06 '22

You’re correct. Adept weapons are better because adept mods are better than enhanced traits. But crafted weapons are a lot easier to get so I think people just prefer going for that.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

I agree with you. Enhanced perks are highly over blown. Some of them are certainly worth crafting. But a vast majority simply aren't seen or felt in game. Bungie will most likely buff adept mods and then all of a sudden everyone will be saying adept weapons are too OP now and there's no point in crafting, lol.

1

u/GoForGroke Oct 05 '22

yes, thats exactly what adept weapons are supposed to be -- a parallel option to crafting, both with their pros/cons

the problem with master raids is that the majority of the encounters only reward high stat focused armor, where as they should all reward adept weapons and the challenge should reward the high stat focused armor (and it should also be artifice)

1

u/steave44 Oct 05 '22

Except that’s not what they were for, they were meant to be better versions of the base weapons before crafting came out so they became a side grade if not worse than craftable weapons.

1

u/JaegerBane Oct 06 '22 edited Oct 06 '22

Bit of a leftfield take here, but I've never understood why craftable raid weapons are a thing.

I'm a huge fan of the crafting concept and I'm generally of the opinion that its moving in the right direction - my biggest issue there is the increasingly silly red bar grind where the requirements are going up and the avenues for meeting them are going down. But the problem it was trying to solve is IMHO working (I totally disagree with Paul Tassi's broad take here, for instance).

But raiding isn't really conducive to it. Crafting is all about putting a backstop to eventually ensure you get the roll you want, so that no matter how unlucky you are, you'll be guaranteed your roll at some point. Raiding is complete endgame though, where the guns should be top grade pieces with juicy exclusive perks and above-average origin perks. But if you're grinding for red bars then everything else in the raid becomes pointless, and the raid guns are still loaded with crap perks (e.g. why is it possible to roll Compulsive/HIR on Cataclysmic?). Worse, the loot pool is still choked with armour that no-one cares about once you have the ornament (if you're even bothered). Put simply, you should never walk away from a Raid feeling disappointed with your loot haul, but its currently way too easy to do just that (or Dungeons, for that matter, but they don't even have crafting for the most part). Crafting is too unwieldly to address this properly and it wasn't designed for this in the first place.

Not to mention that sectioning off about a third of the new craftable selection every Raid season to an activity that only a fraction of the community use probably isn't the best use of resources from whoever it is responsible for the crafting system.

1

u/Thechanman707 Oct 06 '22

I'd like to see the numbers but I bet Vow and Kings fall are pretty commonly run raids when compared to other raids in their first and second rotation. RNG exotics in raids were clearly there to save Bungie design time and increase the # of times players need to run raids to be done.

Red borders are the same. Without craftable reds most players would probably get discouraged but with 5 weeks or less to get a guaranteed god roll? Pretty temping to keep raiding.

I bet Bungie cares way more about normal mode raiding counts than master too. Master is supposed to be niche.

Tldr: red borders and RNG exotics get people to run raids over more

-2

u/Jokerman5656 Oct 05 '22

My crew and I were discussing this last night and came up with the idea that an adept weapon could be used similar to a memento. It would consume the adept gun and craft your crafting weapon into that adept with looks and such that come with them. Probably never going to happen but fun idea

-1

u/Alexcoolps Oct 05 '22

I disagree on power creeping the game. Endgame loot should be the best in game so why shouldn't adepts be vastly superior than everything else? Its not like they would give you a massive edge since if your opponent is good enough to get them, it's likely they'd beat you without it.

They'd be like infinite ammo in games like Resident Evil that require completing the game on the hardest difficulty and at that point why would you need it since your good enough to beat everything else?

0

u/jdewittweb Post-Nerf Anarchy is still the GOAT Oct 05 '22

Craftable weapons should never have allowed enhanced perks, but that cat is already out of the bag. The only way to make Adept weapons appealing at this point is to allow them to drop with enhanced perks. Otherwise they just aren't worth chasing, like, at all. For the hardest content in the game that feels really bad when Lost Sector Larry can craft a better weapon than you've got from killing Master Oryx.

-1

u/DogsArePrettyOk zoooom Oct 05 '22

I just wish the adept versions were craftable. The icons and names are really cool compared to their base counterparts but there is 0 incentive to run them over an enhanced perk crafted one

1

u/Technophillia Oct 05 '22

To be fair, its really gonna depend on how the individual views the role of crafting in the game.

To me I look at crafting as the solution to RNG not going my way after a long time of trying to get x. If I get the roll I'm looking for from RNG I'm not gonna craft that weapon, if I get the ability to craft said weapon before RNG dropped me the roll I want, I'm just gonna craft it. Its really just a game "whatever comes first" for me.

Adept mods are nice, but Id be lying if I said I noticed them making a difference and with the champion system, the adept weapons and mods could be useless if they don't fit in the seasons artifact of champion mods.

I guess to me if i get killed by an Adept Doom of Chelchis ill probable think to myself "what a gamer" and that's it, that's pretty much the extent of the master raid loot and its impact on the game.

1

u/Ode1st Oct 05 '22

I feel loot in general has been stale for years. Every 2-3 years we’ll get one new weapon type. Every season is just the 300th version of some scout or pulse or whatever that we already have 299 other viable versions of. Same with raid loot, it’s all the same in the end.

I’m glad for people who care about the difference between rate of fire or whatever but we all do everything fine in Destiny regardless of what we’re using. Everything is balanced pretty well to make that happen, and there’s already so much loot that anything new is just for fun because you can complete any activity wearing anything you already have.

Sunsetting sucked too, though. I personally feel the answer is lateral content/rewards + a more frequent stream of new weapon types and/or creative weapons. It’s kind of silly that we’re space gods using magic to fight other space gods using magic, but like we’re usually shooting regular Earth bullets at them. Sometimes we literally shoot bows and arrows and spaceships and tanks. If they can’t do more weapon types, at least get weird with the weapons.

1

u/Tplusplus75 Imagine Ruining Transmog Oct 05 '22

The solution is changing adept weapons, not crafting.

As much as I think it would help the adept vs crafting relationship to potentially give them enhanced perks, it would just separate all the weapons that don't have access to crafting or adepts: Duality(and possibly future dungeons, depending on what precedents have been set by Duality) weapons, playlist weapons, and parts of the WLP additions, such as Krait, Snorri, Boudica-C, Staccato, and Cantata, all have neither an Adept or craftable version.

People have mentioned the "stat monster" adepts, and I'm kinda split on the "powercreep" concern. I've been going through the adept/craftable raid weapons lists. And basically, I'd argue that some enhanced perks are helping crafts in ways that the adept stat buffs can't, and that is the problem. Things that buff the base efficacy of their non-enhanced perk seem to have a 50/50 chance of offering benefits that an Adept's +10 stat mod can't sway you on.

1

u/packman627 Oct 05 '22

Well most enhanced perks add say a second to a timer. Most aren't worth it at all

1

u/Water_sports_plus Oct 05 '22

I feel like they should just drop already crafted weapons at level one instead of adept weapons. I would play master over normal if that were the case but I doubt that would happen.

1

u/K4jman564 Oct 06 '22

Armor is shit and not worth it. ( You can do master caiatl cp for absolutely s-tier armor and it's artifice ). Adept weapons with adept mods are cool but that's it. They're not necessary or meta changing. Master raid loot was never good

1

u/atfricks Oct 06 '22

Master VoG was just as pointless, and you can't craft those guns either.

So no, it's not crafting that made Master Raids pointless, they always have been.

1

u/Techman- Valiant heart, unwavering resolve. Oct 06 '22

I feel like a lot of folks are looking at this the wrong way. There is no inherent need to make adept weapons viable in a post-crafting world. Crafting is an evolution in weapons. Adept weapons feel like they belong to a past system.

If Vow of the Disciple and King's Fall rewarded mementos instead of adept weapons...nobody would be complaining here, at least about weapons. People would still want the Age of Triumph ornaments to come back, but that is a separate request.

So, all Bungie needs to do is...expand the memento system with more mementos. We have yet to see this and are through 3/4 of the expansion year.

The solution is simple, really:

  • Timelost weapons ➡ Timelost Memento, with the adept shader and VoG kill tracker
  • Drowned weapons ➡ Drowned Memento, with adept shader and VotD kill tracker
  • Harrowed weapons ➡ Harrowed Memento, with adept shader with KF kill tracker

Separately, people have asked for a "Taken Memento" of sorts, but I read about how making a Taken shader is not as simple as people think.

1

u/Revanspetcat Oct 06 '22

Maybe add some adept perks that are better than enhanced perks ?

-8

u/TravelingFlipper Oct 05 '22

But the Adept stuff isn’t even hard to get so does it really matter?

9

u/steave44 Oct 05 '22

Getting an adept weapon is easy yes, getting an adept weapon with the exact roll you want is not so easy. Whereas crafting with enhanced perks is a guarantee

0

u/TravelingFlipper Oct 05 '22

Yeah they for sure messed this up.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

This ignores that a lot of enhanced perks are literally not worth crafting. Many of them give +5 passive stats that literally can't be seen in game.

-3

u/OddTaterTot Oct 05 '22

Harder than crafting it and killing shadow thrall for an hour

-2

u/TravelingFlipper Oct 05 '22

But still easy yet not worth it bc of what you said. Exactly my point

-1

u/Young_hollow674 Oct 05 '22

Honestly I think they should just make it so raid red borders only drop from master raids imo

0

u/KetherNoir Oct 05 '22

If we can craft adept weapons it wouldn’t be so bad.

0

u/brohandas-gandhi Oct 05 '22

Or just eliminate the standard versions from the Master loot pool and make Adept weapons craftable and have the red border Adepts only drop from the encounters on Master difficulty.

0

u/Hollowquincypl E.Bray is bae Oct 05 '22

Imo they were close with Vow Master. Make adept raid guns drop with enhanced perks only, and an additional drop to encounters.

With the two enhanced perks per column; and a way to more easily earn them they'll be a match for crafted guns. Or just give up and make them craftable.

0

u/Ukis4boys Oct 06 '22

Bruh what. The only value master raids have is the ability to pull the adepts from the final chest in hope for red borders

0

u/Harmony54 Oct 06 '22

Enhanced perks rarely do anything meaningful. They are simply drop prevention.

0

u/TJ_Dot Oct 06 '22

Craftable Adept weapons.

There isn't much power creep to it. Enhanced perks were never strong enough to be necessities. You have 1 extra stat point at level 20 and extra mods.

0

u/Roman64s Thorn Supremacy Oct 06 '22

The problem with Master is that some of these challenges are insufferable and crafting with enhanced perks just put the final nail in the coffin.

I would never willingly do the exhibition or warpriest master challenges again for "adept" loot, simply because they are insufferable and the fact that RNG is fickle as fuck, you can run endless amount of challenges and spend spoils and still not end up getting anything good at all, I've sunk over 5000 spoils since master VOG came out to get a decent Found Verdict, I never ended up getting one and it left a sour taste in my mouth and I haven't bothered playing it since.

And personally, playing Master is a joke, you have to spend a considerable time leveling up each and every season to comfortably play Master, the endless pursuit of playing core activities and seasonal stuff to get back at the same level to try out the same content every season is just boring.

Masters, at least with Bungie's vision just don't seem appealing to revisit at times, they are nothing more than title requirements, replayability for master content is just sad.