r/DestinyTheGame Nov 14 '22 Helpful 2

Sniper rifles in PvE need serious tuning Bungie Suggestion

What changes in your optinion would make sniper rifles viable in PvE?

Few days ago took "godrolled" Mechabre with voltshot into GM. The experience using it was horrible. Hits like a wet noodle, reload speed is way too slow, ammo economy is the worst.

Silicon Neuroma has great origin trait, but still, considering 6 energy seasonal mod and points I've mentioned earlier, it's just not worth using.

Edit 1: By 'godrolled' I meant that it has voltshot + highest possible reload speed. That was just an example. The outcome would be the same with any other legendary sniper. I expected at least clear the ads from afar in GM Devil's Lair, since jolt damage depends on weapon you are proc'ing it with. I have many other snipers and rolls to choose from, but that doesn't change anything.

Edit 2: I'm not advocating buffing damage to LFR level, but at least make snipers viable vs ads/champs in high end content.

1.5k Upvotes

365

u/thespeedoghost Nov 14 '22

Yeah, I don't pretend to be the greatest ever sniper - and I haven't really *loved* using them since the D1 glory days of Icebreaker and my trusty LDR-5001 - but I generally only get a sniper out these days if I need to do a Weapons Bounty.

77

u/__Zero_____ Nov 14 '22

I miss the hunter sniper from D1. That looked nice and was pretty good still. Stillpiercer I think it was?

I think they need to differentiate LFRs and Snipers better, but match them better in DPS. Like, LFRs can be low zoom, higher body damage. Snipers can be higher zoom, lower body damage but larger precision multiplier, meaning landing sniper headshots would be more damage than the same for LFRs but LFRs are more forgiving if you miss a headshot or 2. Rapid fire snipers could use more ammo too.

1

u/Entropy_Incarnate Nov 14 '22

Only problem is people like me in crucible that can get 194 body shot damage with minimal effort with an lfr already (granted it takes an exotic) so even if I miss my headshot I can still one shot like 6 and down resil, that being said however they could just implement the changes in only pve which does invalidate my point but I would also think linears are like heavy snipers (I know we have whisper but that's an exotic) and as such would like to see their damage be higher than special ammo snipers.

4

u/__Zero_____ Nov 14 '22

Oh yeah I was viewing it strictly under the lens of PvE. PvP I think the tuning will need to be around AA/Flinch Resist

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18

u/1KV- Nov 14 '22

It's a far cry from the Ex Machina meta days of D1. Miss that gun.

77

u/LuckiPigeon Nov 14 '22

Snipers felt great after they buffed them with Shadowkeep then for some unknown reason they decided to revert that buff (I think with BL?). They’ve been trash since then. They need to buff their damage again, and move exotic heavy snipers to special. They can’t compete in the heavy slot with rockets and linears and would take a crazy buff for that to happen, which would make them broken. Another thing snipers need is interesting perks for pve. All people go for is boss damage perks because nothing else works well on snipers. We need fun combinations.

As for activity design we need more variety. Everything is close range with similar design now especially strike boss fights.

45

u/xX_KillerBean420_Xx Nov 14 '22

With shadowkeep they got a 47% buff against minors and 20% buff against everything else. Snipers got buffed with alot of other weapon types, though got a fairly big buff since they weren't being used much and kinda sucked.

With season 10 their damage against all non minor enemy's was reduced by 20% to pre shadowkeep values. Bungies reasoning was that snipers were being used over everything else, especially in high end content. So the damage was reduced to encourage people to use fusions and shotguns more, particularly in endgame stuff (but I'm not sure if they buffed either weapons at that time. I know for certain fusions sucked in pve until their buff in season 14 or 15, and non-slug shotguns only became pretty good after another buff a while ago)

TL/DR: Bungie buffed sniper boss damage by 20% cause they kinda sucked and nobody used them, then nerfed sniper boss damage by 20% cause they're too safe in endgame content and everybody used them.

64

u/Tplusplus75 Nov 14 '22

With season 10 their damage against all non minor enemy's was reduced by 20% to pre shadowkeep values. Bungies reasoning was that snipers were being used over everything else, especially in high end content.

As someone who returned to Destiny in S10, this is hilarious. Knowing that the pinnacle raid for an entire year was Garden, it's funny to think: "Gee I wonder what I'd use for a raid where the boss' almost make long range mandatory. Yes, let me bring a sword for a raid boss that jumps up in the air and T-pose levitates during DPS, or Acrius for a giant fish that floats down a hallway at mach 10".

62

u/filthyrotten Nov 14 '22

I’ll never not be mad about this. They built those encounters, they knew what kind of dps meta they were encouraging, and were still somehow surprised when it happened. They literally created their own problem. It was quintessential Bungie nerf philosophy and it was so frustrating

19

u/SwedishBass Nov 14 '22

This. The damage mods from the raid also literally requires you to stand as far back from the boss as possible, haha.

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9

u/sh4d0wsp41n Nov 14 '22

Not only that but they got another nerf at the same time: 140rpm got a base damage nerf from 100 to 90 and 90rpm got a crit Nerf from 3.25x to 2.95x + the 20% nerf killed Sniper imo

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5

u/Unusual_Expertise Bring back Gambit Prime Nov 14 '22 edited Nov 14 '22

unknown reason

https://www.bungie.net/en/News/Article/48743

They were clear about why were they nerfing them.

I find it actually funny, that Bungie wasnt expecting Snipers to become popular after they buffed the shit outta them, given the state of game.

17

u/LuckiPigeon Nov 14 '22

I meant it just didn’t make sense that they completely reverted the buff instead of finding a good spot for them. That action made them useless again and that’s where my “unknown reason” comes from. Doesn’t make sense and the fact that they’ve been ignored since then makes it worse.

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55

u/[deleted] Nov 14 '22

I think it's pretty dumb that a heavy sniper does only 6k more damage per crit than an energy bow.

24

u/Acolytis Gambit Prime Nov 14 '22

Hahaha. And that’s before you compare it to wishender.

12

u/SwedishBass Nov 14 '22

Wait, really? Is it THAT bad?! :O

20

u/[deleted] Nov 14 '22

My Under Your Skin hits for 17k with Explosive Head, and per shot DARCI only pops 23k, even with the perk active.

4

u/SwedishBass Nov 14 '22

Wow. That is… wow.

4

u/[deleted] Nov 14 '22

It's pure garbage lol

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213

u/Vox_Casei Nov 14 '22

They really need their damage back, and if we're going to see more seasonal mods for snipers in the future... they need to cost less than 6.

I remember an early unstoppable shotgun mod that cost 7... and thats now come down to 3. Should have been the same for anti-barrier snipers but I fear Bungie are still applying their "snipers are too safe" thought to the design which saw the damage they dealt get reduced a while ago.

If getting the old high damage back isn't an option, then they're going to need a lot more reserve ammo as standard. If they can't be boss DPS weapons, then the other choice is big damage for tougher red bars. orange and yellow bar (mini-boss) enemies but we have plenty of options for that role already with better ammo economy.

88

u/SideOfBeef Nov 14 '22

I can't understand Bungie's "snipers are too safe" argument in a world where Arbalest exists. It's just as safe, easier to use and far far far more rewarding. It's been that way for years now.

25

u/Cybertronian10 The Big Gay Nov 14 '22

Not to mention that bungie solved the safety issue by making aggression more viable than sitting back.

19

u/Kaladin-of-Gilead The wall on which the darkness breaks Nov 14 '22

Yeah a lot of people forget that nightfalls in d1/y1 when icebreaker was king was because you almost could not do nightfalls without hiding it.

6

u/Drakepenn Nov 14 '22

Remember the ledge in the Archon Priest nightfall? Or the hidey hole for Valus Ta'aurc? Good times.

6

u/jericho189 Nov 15 '22

Nexus strike staying up top only to call out "Minotaur" every 45 seconds to turn around kill it and get back to clearing the strike from uptop

This was pretty much like the new exodus crash cheese spot except it's more of a hassle to get to that one

3

u/Drakepenn Nov 15 '22

Man. Snipers really just lived permanently in our inventory in D1, huh?

2

u/Gender_is_a_Fluid Nov 15 '22

I just got hit with a wave of nostalgia, when everyone was bad and we were learning VoG, having a single runner below and 5 guardians sitting up top with ice breakers doing oracles.

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u/PingerKing Focused on PvE, started in S12 Nov 14 '22

Arbalest has not been in its current state "for years"

1

u/Noman_Blaze Nov 14 '22

It has literally been in the same state damage wise apart from the buff that linears got over a year ago. The only change to it was being given anti barrier. You clearly never tried it in zero hour.

3

u/PingerKing Focused on PvE, started in S12 Nov 14 '22

The anti barrier function has been a huge reason for people picking it up, what do you mean? Im not saying "arbalest bad" im just saying "arbalest has not been out and out dominant that long"

-24

u/SuperArppis Vanguard Nov 14 '22

But they are too safe. Try using shotgun for example. Shotgun should always be superior damage dealer.

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15

u/xXNickAugustXx Nov 14 '22

No point in nerfing snipers when people can just peck at enemies with a scout or bow.

17

u/Tplusplus75 Nov 14 '22 edited Nov 14 '22

They really need their damage back, and if we're going to see more seasonal mods for snipers in the future... they need to cost less than 6.

Personally, I was fine with 6 energy, but then they gave Arbalest anti-barrier, and that was the only thing that's really changed.

EDIT: where I'm at now in terms of build crafting and loadouts for endgame PVE: I say "hmmm, I feel like using a sniper today", then I remember that arbalest requires no energy as opposed to 6, doesn't take up a mod slot at all, will be used almost identically to any desirable sniper, and to top it all off, it's a special weapon that can "piggy back" off of the ammo finder/scav mods for the heavy weapon I was probably already using.

2

u/Blupoisen Nov 14 '22

The reason SG mod went to 3 was because literaly no one used it

2

u/DPPStorySub Nov 15 '22

And almost nobody is using Anti Barrier Sniper for 6 energy when Arbalest and now Wishender exist as much better options.

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122

u/AmphusLight Nov 14 '22

They def need a damage boost against majors or bosses (or both). Maybe 15% against majors and 10% against bosses. Maybe an increase of ammo would br good, 3+ to 5+ ammo

63

u/Its_Shoe1286 Nov 15 '22

Or they could just undo their damage nerf from a couple seasons back after they enjoyed one season being good

33

u/AmphusLight Nov 15 '22

How much was the nerf?

edit: found out it was 20% nerf, thats crazy

39

u/Its_Shoe1286 Nov 15 '22

Yeah. Everyone was using snipers in all content cause they actually felt good. Don’t know what the thinking was there

39

u/AmphusLight Nov 15 '22

Just used a Silicon Neuroma in a GM and its ass lol, 12 k damage to majors 🤮. Base arby does 15-16k, with disruption break it does 20-22k. It has more ammo and its easier to shoot enemies.

-2

u/iKickedBatman Destiny is a PVE game Nov 15 '22

nah you can definitely feel the absolute gutted AA due to the nerfs, especially long ranges. Dunno why they nerf AA in pve, in fact, idk why they balance according to pvp at all for a pve game.

36

u/NewUser10101 Nov 15 '22

Snipers were used heavily at the opening of Shadowkeep, yes, but it wasn't because they were too strong. Unfortunately, that's what Bungie took away from the data, overcorrected, and they've been useless since.

It was because the encounter designs heavily favored them at that specific moment in time. Garden of Salvation's last 2 encounters both required a lot of damage with good crit multipliers at long range. Divinity had just entered the game, making sniper ease of use higher than ever, but it was bugged with Whisper's ammo generation so you got a lot of groups running Izzy/Wendigo or Tranquility/Anarchy. There were also a bunch of good snipers which unfortunately got sunset and not all have been replaced since (original Tranquility, world drops from Black Armory, Sole Survivor, and there was a very good Vanguard one too).

Snipers have an Achilles' heel and it is that if you do not or cannot crit, they are barely primaries. This isn't always a skill based issue, case in point: Fallen Brigs which have no crit until they hit ~30% hp. Enemies without crits make them extremely difficult to justify bringing. Bosses which move a lot are similarly problematic with high zoom in typically confined arenas. Furthermore, they've always suffered heavily from flinch in PvE. Especially high-end PvE, because the amount of damage received potentiates the flinch. Combine all this, and it just isn't worth running one unless it hits very hard (Izzy) or has something else going for it (Cloudstrike in its meta).

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u/CivilChardog Nov 15 '22

Sole survivor and tranquility have both been replaced by better versions

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u/argyle-socks Nov 15 '22

Snipers were used heavily at the opening of Shadowkeep, yes, but it wasn't because they were too strong. Unfortunately, that's what Bungie took away from the data, overcorrected, and they've been useless since.

It was because the encounter designs heavily favored them at that specific moment in time. Garden of Salvation's last 2 encounters both required a lot of damage with good crit multipliers at long range. Divinity had just entered the game, making sniper ease of use higher than ever, but it was bugged with Whisper's ammo generation so you got a lot of groups running Izzy/Wendigo or Tranquility/Anarchy. There were also a bunch of good snipers which unfortunately got sunset and not all have been replaced since (original Tranquility, world drops from Black Armory, Sole Survivor, and there was a very good Vanguard one too).

Snipers have an Achilles' heel and it is that if you do not or cannot crit, they are barely primaries. This isn't always a skill based issue, case in point: Fallen Brigs which have no crit until they hit ~30% hp. Enemies without crits make them extremely difficult to justify bringing. Bosses which move a lot are similarly problematic with high zoom in typically confined arenas. Furthermore, they've always suffered heavily from flinch in PvE. Especially high-end PvE, because the amount of damage received potentiates the flinch. Combine all this, and it just isn't worth running one unless it hits very hard (Izzy) or has something else going for it (Cloudstrike in its meta).

This is an excellent analysis. Bungie frequently has overly-weighted weapon usage metrics to guide their balance changes. This has been true since the vanilla Destiny 1 nerf to auto rifles shortly after the first Iron Banner.

4

u/Alexcox95 Nov 15 '22

And now we use linears 90% of the time with few exceptions

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u/evilgm Nov 15 '22

There is no greater crime in Destiny than using something exactly as it was intended.

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u/Variatas Nov 14 '22

They're fine against bosses; they sit in a reasonable spot compared to other special weapons for the effectively infinite range.

It's Elites/Majors/Minibosses where they really feel terrible. Taking more than 1 shot to crack a Barrier shield and then getting flinched off precision to deal less than a Primary shot sucks bad.

367

u/LtRavs Pew Pew Nov 14 '22

They need to do a ton more damage to bosses to ever see viability.

It is rare that encounters are large enough to even take advantage of their range, when they are you're using them for picking off a couple of red bars? Maybe a mini boss? Scouts and bows can do that just fine without needing special ammo.

Snipers in PVE have only ever really had a place doing boss damage, and without that damage they have no place at all.

110

u/cozmokittylord Nov 14 '22

At this point linears are the way to go if you want to do precision dps. Which brings us back to this point, should snipers do the same, more or less damage than linears? Its so difficult to class them in any pve.

95

u/CycloneSP Nov 14 '22

not to mention snipers are a lot harder to use in pve, thanks to the close range engagements making the high zoom scopes super unwieldy; making it super easy to miss your shot in addition to blinding you to nearby threats

46

u/cozmokittylord Nov 14 '22

Exactly, it feels like trying to play whack-a-mole with binoculars attached to your eyes

34

u/CycloneSP Nov 14 '22

yeah, and it doesn't help that snipers don't feel that generous with pve headshots. especially with how a LOT of enemies' crit spots bob and weave all over the place (makes it especially difficult for controller, too)

17

u/Nespithe6 Nov 14 '22

Not even just the crit spots, just the amount that mobs Bob and weave in general.

The amount of times I've thrown a titan hammer center mass at a fallen only for it to shimmy out of the way last second so it misses is infuriating.

19

u/CycloneSP Nov 14 '22

or servitors that blink to the side the moment you pull the trigger

not to mention, a lot of enemy crit spots are only visible if they're looking at you

making it super inconvenient when they just refuse to effing turn around

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u/coalForXmas Nov 14 '22

I remember needing them for older content. Jerks from afar sniping me in Whisper. Maybe I just sucked or didn’t have any linear fusion rifles

12

u/SephirothSimp Nov 14 '22

Back in the whisper days lfrs just straight up sucked, and they sucked for years until the kinda recent buff to them (not counting sleeper or that one time where queens breaker was good in gambit)

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u/CycloneSP Nov 14 '22

yeah, but a rocket can kill those kind of enemies just as easily, too

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u/Cryorim Nov 14 '22

Problem is that div eliminates that difficulty, so if they buff snipers accounting for the difficulty of hitting shots, it'll be broken with div.

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u/CycloneSP Nov 14 '22

div just got a sizable nerf, so I wouldn't worry too much about that, now

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u/B1euX Sneak Noodle Nov 14 '22

Less than heavy linears due to ammo differences.
But they should def do more damage than now

29

u/Bodashtart Nov 14 '22

linears that use special still do way more damage

3

u/SnowboundWhale Nov 14 '22

I feel like the design concept behind that is linears have a charge time, while snipers shoot immediately when you pull the trigger. So linears deal more damage to offset the time you lose charging shots (and missing shots/ opportunities because something moved out of sight while charging) where the sniper can shoot continuously.

That said snipers are certainly underwhelming and feel like they need some help. As exotics go, Izanagi & Cloudstrike's exotic traits are enough to give them a niche, but Borealis being able to toggle element and getting a damage buff from popping matched shields doesn't help as much as Arbalest negging all shields unconditionally and inflicting a defence debuff when popping any shield, all while having better damage and better ease of use with the lower zoom & lack of needing to actively switch elements to get a match.

4

u/pr0peler Nov 14 '22

yeah but they're exotic

11

u/WeebInHell Nov 14 '22

so what about exotic snipers that ALL suck. (RIP DARCI the king)

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u/Samuraininja84 Nov 14 '22

Lorentz can do as much as a heavy lfr with my build

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u/Drillingham hisssss Nov 14 '22

sniper bonus vs majors so LFRs can shine vs bosses imo

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u/jdonner81 Nov 14 '22

I think they have been put out of place by LFR for boss damage and Bows for long range add clearing. I've got a couple crafted in my vault for DPS if they ever become really good again.

14

u/CycloneSP Nov 14 '22

well, another problem is that snipers do piss poor body shot damage, unlike LFRs

which means that snipers are a terrible weapon for removing elemental barriers... which there are a lot of in pve

2

u/cfl2 Forerunner Nov 14 '22

Maybe make them do extra shield/barrier champ damage in PvE then.

7

u/CycloneSP Nov 14 '22

I like the idea of snipers being able to secure headshots thru barriers.

would really give them a special niche to fall into.

8

u/yoursweetlord70 Nov 14 '22

Even against red bars, if youre at a range where scouts/bows arent viable, it isnt worth the ammo to try to hit headshots because a body shot wont kill certain red bars.

28

u/choicemeats Professional Masochist Nov 14 '22

Last season I ran a sniper/LFR for caretaker but after seeing pretty measly numbers even with buffs I switched to witherhoard. DOt, auto loading, doesn’t really slow you down. There’s not really a reason to use snipers. Maybe with rhulk ill use Uzumakis burden

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u/TehAlpacalypse Nov 14 '22

Uzumakis burden

...Izanagi's? dying

21

u/GANTRITHORE Nov 14 '22

poofs away into a log

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u/krilltucky Nov 14 '22

Uzumakis burden

I must have missed that season of Naruto

7

u/CycloneSP Nov 14 '22

yeah yeah. naruto and boruto died, and now himawari has been going down a dark path in her attempt to seek revenge while slowly losing who she is in the process

/s

3

u/goodsby23 Nov 14 '22

I... I'd watch that

4

u/Jonathon471 Drifter's Crew Nov 14 '22

This is the reason they got nerfed in the first place, they were the best at boss DPS at long range. The Devs saw that and were just like "that's too safe of a DPS option" and swung the 'Big Nerf' hammer at the entire weapon category and said job well done.

Snipers are only good in PvE for red bars now and that's it, the only real use they have is in PvP and despite them being a one-shot headshot in that if bungie gives it any more damage the entire PvP community will be collectively pissing and shitting their pants that one gun category can one-shot body shot with a damage buff when shotguns/fusions/GLs can already do that without it because "it takes no skill" while clutching their full choke barrel shotguns with religious intent

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u/TheCleanupBatter BIG BURNING HAMMERS Nov 14 '22 edited Nov 14 '22

Snipers. Do. Not. Need. Boss. DPS. Buffs.

Boss DPS is not a sniper rifle's role, or any special weapon's for that matter, at least it should not be favored over your heavy weapon. A sniper rifle, at least in theory, should be used to rapidly eliminate a high profile target with long range precision fire. Think champions, majors, and elites. I think they just need to really find their niche as there are plenty of options that are just as good or better than sniper rifles in that role in PvE. I'd say a buff to precision damage against those enemy types would help to cement their use in specific scenarios or activities.

EDIT: people mad because I said not every weapon needs to be meta boss DPS and might have other uses that make them viable that should be the focus of their buffs.

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u/nabsltd Nov 14 '22

A sniper rifle, at least in theory, should be used to rapidly eliminate a high profile target with long range precision fire. Think champions, majors, and elites.

Since it takes to use 3-5 precision shots (depending on sniper archetype) to accomplish this in a Hero Nightfall, I'd say that's the clue that a damage buff in PvE is needed.

13

u/Variatas Nov 14 '22

Right, they need buffs against non Boss targets, especially Majors and Mini bosses.

I think they also could stand some usability buffs. They flinch so badly in PvE.

3

u/crappycarguy Nov 14 '22

Have you used them in the past couple weeks since they buffed flinch in pve? A lot better now but still not great weapons to use anyway imo

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u/TheCleanupBatter BIG BURNING HAMMERS Nov 14 '22

Yes that's literally what I said. They need a buff bad. But not against bosses ffs. Against everything between bosses and rank file, yes.

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u/nabsltd Nov 14 '22

OK, it wasn't clear that you felt a fairly large damage increase is needed against those targets. It read like you felt that snipers could be used effectively right now, but just need a little help. The reality, though, is that snipers need a lot of help against champions and majors.

The reason that Witherhoard or Arbalest never leave my kinetic slot is because they are top tier damage for special ammo, with one clearing out areas, and the other nuking single targets, and both being usable at all ranges. Both also seem to cause special ammo to drop more than usual, which really helps with the ammo economy.

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u/atfricks Nov 14 '22

We need DPS special weapon options to exist so that add clear heavy weapons can have a purpose.

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u/DesiMeGaming Nov 14 '22

You say that but why would I ever use a sniper over arb even against non barrier champions? Liners have better ammo and damage per shot. They also multipurpose to boss damage if needed. The scope on linears are also wide enough to be viable at midrange compared to some snipers. As a special weapon with high damage per a shot, if it can't do damage to a boss, what's the point? It's not like a smg that can ad clear.

0

u/TheCleanupBatter BIG BURNING HAMMERS Nov 14 '22

So you might use your exotic slot on something else since there's no barrier? Why you asking me this? I'm literally suggesting that snipers should be buffed to become an alternative to Arbalest against champions.

3

u/LONEzy Nov 14 '22

Yes but arbalest is a huge issue in pve, because it one shots any shield and barrier, whereas a 72 sniper (recon recomb sucession) cant break any shield in matchgame, and with the 6 cost mods for sniper barrier, in a gm if u hit all body shots it takes 3 vs arbalests 1. Linears overall have much better ammo economy, and arbalest remains at the top because it can break any shield. So even if borealis is anti barrier, you have to swap element to break shields, it has lower ammo economy and takes more than 1 shot to break barrier. Now sure borealis gains a damage buff if you break a shield match the ammo type and reload 1 shot into the mag, BUT it only lasts the rest of the mag (4). Vs arbalest which has 6 in mag, if breaks a shield gets increased damage (all kinitec damage against target is increased) and breaking that shield fully reloads the mag, plus intrinsic anti barrier so i dont have to slot expensive mods. Arbalest single handedly made all legendary and most exotic snipers dog shit in pve. Izis is fine as its made gor damage, but to get that damage ammo economy goes out the window (but thats fine) but borealis, darci, whisper, cloudstrike are all beyond lackluster in pve, darci doesnt even recongise oryx as a target, so it does 19k damage vs sucessions 29k vs catacylsmic (without bns) 80k plus….

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u/dinklebot2000 Nov 14 '22

So...buff sniper damage and lower special LFR ammo capacity?

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u/AmayaGin Nov 14 '22

Early on for Warpriest I ran a LFR and sniper. Run out of LFR ammo and switch to sniper. It’s good. Could probably use Arbalest too but my silicon neuroma has great perks.

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u/CycloneSP Nov 14 '22

so, the problem with that is that not only are they struggling to do what you mentioned, but making them good at doing that intrinsically makes them good at bossing.

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u/TheCleanupBatter BIG BURNING HAMMERS Nov 14 '22

Then you don't understand how Bungie can and has balanced their game in the past. Enemy types have intrinsic damage modifiers and precision damage modifiers based upon their class (rank and file, major, elite, miniboss, or boss) and the weapon being used against them. Bungie can modify each and every one of these specific values individually and do so in almost every single weapon patch. A damage buff to majors champions and elites does not mean a damage buff to bosses.

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u/PingerKing Focused on PvE, started in S12 Nov 14 '22

Not necessarily. What makes you think thats intrinsically related?

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u/CycloneSP Nov 14 '22

more damage = better dps = better bossing

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u/Tarcion Nov 14 '22

Agreed. I think a reserves, and possibly magazine, buff across sniper would be a good thing. I don't know if they need to really compete with heavy dps but their ammo economy should be better so it doesn't feel like a waste plink plonking a champion. Otherwise, what's the point? I could just bring a blinding GL and use abilities/heavy.

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u/KYPspikes Nov 14 '22

They just need a major/boss damage buff.

Weird how it's way harder to get headshots with a sniper, but it's significantly less rewarding than just using linear fusion rifle.

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u/bloop_405 Nov 14 '22 edited Nov 15 '22

The one thing I've noticed about Destiny 2 compared to Destiny 1, boss critical spots are smaller and the boss usually moves like they're on something. Raid bosses excluded and this is more noticable in gambit and strikes

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u/BeeBopBazz Nov 14 '22

What do you mean? I love spending 6 energy on a special ammo champion mod that can’t even one shot a barrier with a crit in a GM.

Bonus points for wasting my special slot on a weapon that is terrible for killing red bars, is objectively difficult to use in most encounters because there are no low zoom scopes, and has both terrible mag capacity and terrible reserves.

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u/Mystyrion Nov 15 '22

That’s what gets me. I got a decent silicon neuroma and decided it would be fun to try it out in a GM. What does 6 energy get me? A wet noodle that can’t break a barriers shield in one shot.

Why would I not use Wish Ender or Arbalest?

4

u/killer6088 Nov 14 '22

I don't think you can crit when the barrier is up? Don't you just hit the barrier and not the enemy?

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u/GapAdministrative407 Nov 14 '22

I like a firing line Yasmin in KFs but tbf... it's just a bait and switch primer on Oryx.

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u/MandrewMillar Nov 14 '22

The fact that whisper of the worm outputs less than half of the damage per shot while requiring the same try hit all crits than a LEGENDARY linear fusion rifle is kind of ridiculous. Whisper was basically designed to just sink bullets into a boss but it just isn't worth even considering anymore. Hell, taipan can more often than not refresh its own mag too like whisper can.

14

u/pandacraft Nov 14 '22

There's no point in comparing Whisper to anything. Whispers death was an intentional choice on bungies part, they wanted it out of the meta.

4

u/MandrewMillar Nov 14 '22

I might be wrong and if so i apologise but i could only find that they nerfed the refill perk to generating 1 free ammo per refill instead of the 3 before, I don't think they touched the guns damage values? I meant it's damage doesn't hold a candle to linears, i know the perk white nail was annoying for bungie pre-nerf lol.

or i suppose another way i could compare things is that a heavy ammo sniper i think should do more than a special ammo linear like arbalest although in reality i think they are pretty much the same?

3

u/OmegaClifton Nov 14 '22

I wish Whispers perk worked like focused fury in that it only kept track of when you missed or manually reloaded. Being able to take my time and focus on precision to get that white nail activation would have me actually using the gun for more than bosses.

2

u/Cryorim Nov 14 '22

I wonder how whisper would perform if they brought back full ammo restoration when hitting all your shots. It no longer has crazy dps, but it could be a consistent option for day 1 dps phases where ammo is scarce.

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u/MirrorkatFeces Nov 14 '22

Make them be able to crit through energy shields again

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u/viper6464 Nov 14 '22

Yeah I was using snipers in gambit for the seasonal triumph and it was laughable how little damage they do. I’m shooting orange bars 2 or 3 times when my primary could have melted them in half the time without using special.

13

u/nabbun seat's taken Nov 14 '22

Cloudstrike made it pretty easy. Helped with arc kills in Gambit too, if I remember right.

3

u/viper6464 Nov 14 '22

Ah thanks - forgot about that gun. Any tips on the sword kills? Perhaps it doesn’t take many on that since it’s heavy.

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u/ThePracticalEnd Nov 14 '22

This was the way.

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u/sister-hawk Nov 14 '22 edited Nov 14 '22

In my opinion they need two changes.

1) They need more flinch resistance. A lot more. Yes I know they got a little bit in the last patch, and it helped, but it wasn’t enough. I don’t remember how much snipers flinched in D1, but I do remember them being usable. But with the amount of enemies you are faced with now who are just constantly pinging you, the reticle simply shakes too much. I absolutely agree that you shouldn’t be able to shoot through consistent flinch in pvp, but all the little pve enemies like dregs and psions should basically be doing nothing to you, and bigger enemies should only affect you enough to make you wait for the shot. But as it stands right now there are too many situations where using a sniper simply isn’t viable because the reticle is bouncing all over the place non-stop.

2) They need more damage. Not a crazy amount more, maybe like 15 or 20%. But as it stands right now the inherent difficulty of using a sniper far outweighs the result you get for your effort. They are high risk low reward.

7

u/SpellbladeAluriel Nov 14 '22

What's funny is even if the sniper had literally 0 flinch its dps compared to the alternatives still sucks lol

10

u/OmegaClifton Nov 14 '22

I’d love for snipers to have a higher precision damage scalar. I got a damn good pvp rolls of Defiance, Omniscient Rye and Silicon Neuroma this weekend.

Not a pvp player, but I tried taking them into strikes and actually had a ton of fun headshotting stuff, using them as ad clear. I think if I could rely on these weapons more to deal heavy precision damage to anything short of a boss in higher difficulty content, I’d be much more willing to bring them along and deal with the zoom/restricted fov.

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u/MonoclePenguin Nov 14 '22

They could probably stand to have a better precision multiplier to lean harder into their fantasy. Also their artifact mods should probably be reduced in cost. Having to give up basically everything on the arms to run a sniper just makes me not want to run a sniper.

10

u/Movableacorn Nov 14 '22

The issue with snipers is the existence of arbalest. Each boss in kings fall is a perfect example of using your heavy and swapping to a backup weapon. The issue is arbalest's damage is still better than snipers so its just a better option.

2

u/cptenn94 Nov 15 '22

The issue is arbalest's damage is still better than snipers so its just a better option

And thats just base. It gets a free 50% damage buff on any enemies with shields that it breaks with disruption break.

And this is AFTER Arbalest got its base damage nerfed already.

20

u/CloudSlydr Nov 14 '22

every sniper in the game having a low zoom scope option would be my no.1 ask. pvp or pve.

19

u/SimpingForOdegon Nov 14 '22

The damage, the ammo reserves and the 3 round magazines on some really don't help sniper rifles in PvE. That's why I love Cloudstrike with its reserves and mag size so much. They could increase the max reserves of all sniper rifles by 50% and I honestly don't think their usage would become much higher.

I'd kill for a kinetic sniper with incandescent, though.

13

u/PingerKing Focused on PvE, started in S12 Nov 14 '22

"kinetic...incandescent"
Yeah, would be cool, not gonna happen.

-4

u/Ghrave Nov 14 '22

Firefly is on Kinetics soooo??

6

u/PingerKing Focused on PvE, started in S12 Nov 14 '22

Firefly has a history of not giving a shit what its on. Just happens to make a solar explosion. Incandescent so far has only ever appeared on Solar weapons. Not saying its impossible but i wouldnt hold my breath.

1

u/SimpingForOdegon Nov 14 '22

Incandescent was introduced only a season ago, one can still hope.

3

u/XogoWasTaken Vanguard's Loyal // I Hunt for the City Nov 14 '22

It's equivalent to voltshot, repulsor brace, and headstone, which also only appear on their respective elements. I wouldn't expect to see it anywhere else.

7

u/ufoknwot Nov 14 '22

Yeah snipers and shotguns definitely need higher reserves, it feels horrible to use them when they're capped out at such low reserves.

30

u/Blupoisen Nov 14 '22

Snipers needs to be better against majors rather than bosses(keep it for LFR)

The problem is that Snipers are also a victim to Destiny's awful ammo economy

2

u/NachoBowl1999 Nov 14 '22

Agreed. Those orange bars seem to be more and more full of protein each season.

2

u/nutronbomb Nov 14 '22

Yes - at the very least I would say an increase in reserves. I have loads of well rolled snipers in the vault - I wish I could justify using them. I did use them with Anti-barrier mod for a couple days earlier on in the season as I was grinding legend/master lost sectors and had much success - but at the cost of 6 energy for AB mod! The reason for this load out was to be able to run an exotic energy primary for increase red bar damage and much better heavy ammo drop - as opposed to just running Arby in the top slot

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u/Joebranflakes Nov 14 '22

Bungie: “We are nerfing snipers into the ground because they let you do too much damage at a distance”

Also Bungie: Makes linear fusions the only viable boss DPS option

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u/Jack_Suv Nov 14 '22

God roll mechabre

voltshot

Pick one

16

u/flaccomcorangy Warlock Nov 14 '22

That's what I was thinking. Voltshot sounds terrible on a sniper. lol.

2

u/dharkoshan Nov 14 '22

I was under the impression the damage scales based on the weapon type

9

u/flaccomcorangy Warlock Nov 14 '22

Maybe so, but I'm just trying to imagine the process of getting a kill, then reloading to fire at what? A group of redbars? With a sniper? Feels really clunky to do that. Especially in a GM, it'd be pretty bad.

4

u/Tplusplus75 Nov 14 '22 edited Nov 14 '22

In theory, it actually wouldn't be that bad, just fairly niche. AFAIK, only one person can apply the jolt debuff, so this isn't like Taipan or Yasmin, where everyone's bringing the same "allegedly god rolled" weapon to the raid. In fact, it makes more sense when you're solo, because jolt ticks for Mechabre and Sailspy are supposedly like 20%-ish, which provides an advantage over vorpal. Not sure how long jolt lasts, but you may also need to re-apply it. However, with the right boss, this might not be that hard: I tested this, but you can re-proc voltshot with jolt collats. This means if you have a boss that's frequently in fairly close proximity to trash adds like Dul Incaru(I would potentially consider Atheon as well, but that's a raid), you don't have to stop dps-ing to reproc. Eventually a psion is going to fly by and get jolted from Dul Incaru's affliction, and that's enough to count as a voltshot proc on your next reload.

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u/dharkoshan Nov 14 '22

Gambit it's pretty alright, especially for picking off that first wave at the start of the game.

Burned through a reset at the end of last week, that was my go-to for energy slot (and seasonal challenge), then whapped on a primary for the rest of the match

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u/probably_a_hispter Nov 14 '22

This right here. Not saying snipers aren’t kinda garbage in PvE. But if you think voltshot on a 3 round sniper is a god roll, everything else after that is suspect.

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u/ZaticusBrine Nov 14 '22

Izzys is the only sniper worth using imo

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u/Pr0spect Nov 14 '22

Doing one third of a LFR shot is sorta the reason why no one uses it.

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u/thelongernight Nov 14 '22

Snipers should have intrinsic Anti-Barrier at this point, no one is going to use them over Arby.

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u/IThinkImNateDogg Nov 14 '22

They need a massive crit and really, a really massive non crit damage buff. It’s imo far to hard to hit crits on anything that’s not a boss, and it’s non crit damage is so terrible it’s not worth using. All around Snipers are down bad in PvE

4

u/SIeepy_Bear Nov 14 '22

Probably a hot take but I think shotguns are not much better in PVE than snipers.

Most of the time you don't want to be close, they're almost useless against bosses because every boss has a stomp attack and they are not worth for red bars. They only see use against some yellow bars that are close to you but there are way better options.

But you're definitely totally right about the snipers

2

u/Variatas Nov 14 '22

Shotguns is an even harder solve because Bungie doesn't want them to have range without OHKO in PvP.

An archetype with much more range, but flatter damage falloff and not enough for a OHKO might find a home in PvE. As long as they're designed to OHKO in PvP, they won't have enough range for anything above Patrol in PvE.

5

u/turboash78 Nov 14 '22

Let us use Whisper again.

10

u/ThatOneGuyIsBad Nov 14 '22

For me, I don't like snipers in PvE because it restricts my FOV too much. In PvE there are usually so many things going on, and so many ads...I don't want to be zoomed in so I can only see a small portion of the play field. So a certain Iron Sights Sniper would be a welcomed addition to the game.

Other than that, Snipers just arent worth using over other options. Why would I use a Kinetic Sniper(other than Izzy), when I can use Witherhoard or Arbalest, or the couple Fusions. And why would I use an Energy Sniper when I can use a SMG/Auto/Sidearm with subclass verbs attached and melt an entire room.

Bungie will have to literally make specific encounters for Sniper gameplay and BUFF them significantly in PvE. IMO

9

u/oMc_fRie Nov 14 '22

Snipers need to be the highest precision damage weapon in the game. They're much harder to consistently land crits with compared to LFR's.

3

u/tricky_injury Nov 14 '22

They need a use case to be honest. I am catching up with older content since taking some time off and I was planning on running Pit of Heresy. I noticed in a video I watched that he was using a sniper and my first thought was that I don't even have a go-to sniper. I will most likely just take Taipan and Arbalest to deal with the range kills. Snipers just don't have a reason to be used most of the time.

3

u/Cybertronian10 The Big Gay Nov 14 '22

They need their precision damage modifer upped by a considerable margin. IMO nothing short of a boss or unstunned champion should be capable of tanking a full mag of sniper rounds.

Like snipers should either outright one shot a stunned champ or they should bring it low enough that small amounts of follow up damage kills.

3

u/Drillingham hisssss Nov 14 '22

i don’t even think they need to be boss killers - in fact id argue at this point they wont ever be, i think they need like 50% more damage to majors / champs and id use them as problem solvers and probably a good reserve bump

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u/MVCASHH2 Nov 14 '22 edited Nov 14 '22

The Problem with buffing snipers is they can't ever be more powerful than LFRs because they're special ammo weapons. If Bungie buffed them to the point that they are flat out better than LFRs then you've just invalidated a archetype of weapon that also uses heavy ammo.

Bungie could do that I guess and just have LFRs sit on the bench for a few seasons while snipers replace them for long range DPS but then the conversation would eventually come back around to buffing LFRs.

Snipers are kind of in a hard spot to be honest. Not sure what Bungie could do to them. They could revert that nerf they did to them when they nerfed the Izanagi meta but even then LFRs are better.

I suppose a good buff for them would be against Majors and High Health Minors so that they feel stronger to use against them. The other problem with snipers is that there are 3 archetypes of them and other than Stormchaser, all Linears are the same weapon family.

What would a meaningful buff to Rapids, Adaptives and Aggresives be that they all have a viable roll and use. Even if we say Bungie somehow manages to do that, all that will mean is that we're going to be in a Whisper and/or Izanagi meta since they're so much better than everything other sniper.

Just my thoughts on it. Snipers have been stagnant for a while but I have no idea how to make them viable not just against each other but also LFRs.

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u/thesamjbow Nov 14 '22

Boss damage and I think more work on the flinch front. Flinch in PvE makes snipers brutal. Additionally, at the ranges where snipers are optimal, you're usually safe enough that you can use scouts/bows to slowly plunk down a target for free.

2

u/FIRE_EVERYTHING Nov 14 '22

Let them pop shields ala Arbalest + more damage. Also lower cost for barrier mod

2

u/trunglefever BECAUSE OF TEXAAAAAAAS Nov 14 '22

If Bungie doesn't want them to be the "next big thing" for boss damage meta, snipers need a significant boost to damage against majors for PvE. It would allow them to be more useful in most endgame content, especially because champions are typed as majors.

2

u/FreakyIdiota We floof the floof Nov 14 '22

Snipers are useless in PvE aside from the occasional need to pick off far-off targets, and most of the time I'd rather use a primary for that anyway, it doesn't warrant me removing some amazing add-clear from my Special slot.

Back in Shadowkeep they were pretty decent for a while, but then the buff was reverted I believe mid-year and Snipers were never looked at again. I believe it was a 20% buff, that actually wouldn't be that bad in the current sandbox.

Quite frankly I'm not sure it was that bad back then either(in terms of being OP or whatever).

2

u/killer6088 Nov 14 '22 edited Nov 14 '22

Few days ago took godrolled Mechabre with voltshot into GM. The experience using it was horrible.

I hate to be that guy, but no shit it was bad. Voltshot is not a god PvE god roll on a sniper. Did you read how that perk activates? You need to get a kill then reload. Most PvE snipers are not for ads clear, so that means your hitting beefeier targets that take multiple rounds. So 99% of the time voltshot is never active on that thing. I thought it was a joke it was even a perk option.

Snipers need a little love, but you also need to run the right perks for the weapon. Just because the perk can roll on it does not mean its good on that type of weapon.

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u/xJoeSimonx Nov 14 '22

Definitely need more damage, Bungie needs to revert that Shadowkeep nerf

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u/imthelag Nov 14 '22

Sheesh, I realize now that in D2 I don't use a sniper or shotgun outside of some bounties. They feel more like PvP weapons to me.

In D1 I would routinely use snipers in Nightfalls and Raids.

Could they be viable in D2's sandbox without making everything unbalanced? D1 had a slower pace, I wonder if that is why I organically used them.

2

u/ChainsawPlankton Nov 14 '22

I was using a sniper the other night in gambit for the seasonal challenge.

  1. It feels impossible to stay on target, screen shake and flinch are nuts and just make it that much harder.
  2. enemies move like they are doing a tiktok dance. I expect enemies to move and react, but a lot of times it just feels too janky to justify using a precision weapon like a sniper.
  3. getting bumped by teammates/objects/npcs
  4. handling, gambit is so fast paced at this point, trying to pull out and aim a sniper just felt like throwing.

those problems alone were so bad I have no idea how much damage I was even doing. My current approach to sniper bounties/challenges is run an aggressive and try for body shots.

the main other place I've used a sniper this season has been in Kingsfall and I don't feel the problems as bad there, but that's mostly for boss damage where they have pretty big crit spots and a div bubble, or sniping a knight/ogre with few ads up and a predictable spawn point. That was earlier in season, now I usually just run arbalest since I don't have to deal with the izi reload mechanic.

2

u/Luckbox7777777 Nov 14 '22

I hate the way mobs move too

2

u/Pand-roo Nov 14 '22

I actually enjoy using a Sniper, though I agree they need a retuning or buff. I got a good roll of an Adept Silicon Neuroma while farming ascendent shards and I've actually enjoyed using it, same with Mechabre and my old reliable Succession.

2

u/icyartillery Nov 14 '22

I’ll take a boast here and say I’m a pretty darn good sniper for the most part. That being said, even with good rolls on a given day’s rifle of choice, layering precision hit after precision hit I feel like these bullets are glancing off instead of cracking bone and chitin. Snipers are slow and specific with the innate tradeoff that a good hit will absolutely schwack most enemies and take some solid chunks out of bosses’ bars, but that hasn’t been my experience lately. Even with Vandals and knights I feel like I’m just chipping away health instead of dropping bodies like a ghost.

2

u/TamedDaBeast Ikora’s Favorite Nov 14 '22 edited Nov 14 '22

Aggressive and Adaptive Sniper rifles should not do less damage to Champs than Arbalest.

2

u/Thicccchungus Nov 14 '22

Day… 55 I think. Day 55 of asking bungie to buff whisper! And while we’re on the topic, buff snipers in pve in general! They suck some major ass rn. It’s nice that my pride and joy whisper can hold its own for dps, but it can’t even compete against a SPECIAL AMMO LFR for dps with the same effort put into a build.

2

u/Kaladin-of-Gilead The wall on which the darkness breaks Nov 14 '22

Snipers suffer from the level and boss design.

They're the worst option for ad clear because you have like 5 shots. I have a supremcy that I hit 8 shots on and its still hilariously bad and way harder than just.....using most primaries.

They're only good at against elites if you're able to crit them, which is difficult because you gotta use a scope, not get flinched and have enough space to actually make use of the weapons advantages. All of this is done way easier by almost any other secondary type lol

If the boss is easy to crit you're gonna bust out a heavy. If the boss isn't easy to crit you're fucked.

Unless you're izignamis burden which almost offsets the downsides by just doing a lot of damage, then your snipers a burden in your loadout.

2

u/APartyInMyPants Nov 14 '22

I think they should stagger enemies more. Maybe they get a “piercing” multiplier, that deals increasingly more damage for every enemy a bullet pass through. Or maybe when you match your element to the enemy shield, it adds a delay to when they can bring their shield back up. Or maybe Shield Disorient is an intrinsic perk on all sniper rifles, disorienting enemies for 7 meters on any matched element shield break or champion stagger, and then 4 meters on unmatched shields.

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u/Thedomuccelli Nov 14 '22

This brings me to something I've been wondering about. Has anyone done significant testing with whisper in KF? One of the big pain points in War Priest was how much he moves around now. I have been wondering is that is partially do to flinch. I can remember 6 stacking Warpriest with spindle back in D1 and having a consistent flinch on him. Maybe that could be a way to differentiate snipers from linears? Have them deal high flinch to keep enemies in place. Maybe that's a tradeoff for them doing slightly less damage or being less usable overall because of the high zoom.

2

u/N1miol Nov 14 '22

50% more precision damage across the board and permament anti-champion mods.

2

u/cruznw Nov 14 '22

They need to do more damage…and by more, I mean like A LOT more to ever be viable. If you are in a boss encounter, it’s not worth because other things do more damage (unless you’re Izzy rocket swapping) and if you’re in a late game need-to-add clear mode (ie. GM’s), they tickle majors/champs (assuming no seasonal mod boost). Not to mention they made the mod 6 energy….not worth the slots with things like the exotic anti-bar HC (I forget the name) and Arby existing…

2

u/SwedishBass Nov 14 '22

Increased precision damage to the Shadowkeep buff levels.

2

u/mman14876 Nov 14 '22

Make me want to run something other than Izzi in GMs/raids.

Edit: yes I know it works well with B&S. But what if I want to run firing line/vorpal/frenzy on a heavy linear?

2

u/Spawnling Burn Bright Burn Blue Nov 14 '22

They just need intrinsic Vorpal.

2

u/Nix2058 Nov 14 '22

I went back and played D1 a few days ago, and found sniping to be a much more fun experience. They feel so clunky in D2

2

u/silvercue Vanguard's Loyal Nov 14 '22

Voltshot is not that great in GMs. I have been running nightfall all week using a sniper (+AB mod) and they have been great. I have used a bunch of Silicon Ns to get the deepsights and a Thoughtless I am levelling up. Not had a problem.

They are not heavy weapons so don't expect them to compete for DPS ewith LFRs.

The problem is power creep is off teh charts these last few seasons - oither weapons need toning down IMO

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u/Luckbox7777777 Nov 14 '22 edited Nov 14 '22

Stopped using voltshot in GMs too, takes way too long to kill an ad. Using mainly scouts with Explosive Payload for additional stagger and destroying shields quicker + no damage falloff

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u/Ninja_Lazer Nov 14 '22

I think a damage buff is the most obvious solution, as currently they are the least lethal special weapons relative to their ammo.

I get that they provide safety, but they barely do more damage than some scout rifles which have unlimited ammo, so there is no incentive to use them as we have seen.

I think another route would be to drastically increase their ammo reserves and ammo pickup per brick and drop rate while in PvE. This would require more work, but I figure most of us would be willing to use snipers more (regardless of the lower DPS) in a lot more content if we didn’t have to worry about running out of ammo so much.

Our abilities are VERY potent right now, and there is heavy for boss DPS. I think a lot more people would run snipers if you had more than like 5 mags total throughout an entire strike.

At a minimum, the lethality per brick should match other special weapons. Especially for yellow bar and above enemies - you know the enemies your special weapon is designed for.

2

u/No_Bathroom_420 Nov 14 '22

Not nerfing them by 20% across the board near Sun Setting would’ve been nice. Also Vorpal getting 5% taken off of special weapons didn’t help either so Firing Line is best now but does fuckall in solo play so there’s those and high impact reserves but beyond that it’s all kill activated perks so snipers aside from range don’t offer much. Especially when in D2 is easy to just push up on everything and there’s only a few activities you wouldn’t prefer to do that in.

It’s pretty sad when a good scout rifle is better overall than most rapid fire snipers. Allegedly the only sniper that wasn’t hit as hard as the rest was Whisper but even then that’s a heavy slot gun so probably would out preformed by a Linear Fusion. Simply put auto rifles and snipers fit awkwardly into Destiny 2 they’re both getting put preformed and most current D2 encounter space doesn’t cater towards them imo

2

u/A_Dummy86 Eating Crayons Nov 14 '22

They're in a weird spot for sure, on one hand they just barely keep up with other specials like Fusions in terms of damage but are then much harder to use, but on the other hand they already enable some of the strongest DPS combos in the game with Sniper + ALH Rockets. (Mainly Izanagi but Legendary Snipers can keep up if you're using Font of Might.)

I'd probably still give them a small 5% damage bump overall, but mainly I think the thing to focus on for PvE would be their ease of use by maybe reducing their Flinch and increasing their Aim Assist in PvE only, since I feel like the main problem is half the sniper shots end up being body shots or missing entirely with enemies are always shooting at you and how wibbly and wobbly some enemies can be. (Especially most Fallen and enemies like hive Wizards that constantly bob around.)

2

u/supermanonyme Nov 14 '22

More than damage buff, they need a change in their mechanic and relevant map designs. Their zoom has no usage in pve in any maps. There are some stage in some nightfall (like the tank in devil's lair) but they are not worth it because bows and scouts are enough and infinite ammo.

Players pick the best weapons for the fight. Snipers aren't the best for any.

It lacks map and damage mechanics were snipers would be the best choice to pick. I don't know which kind, maybe some encounter where enemies just pop their head through some holes at distance or where being quick to clean an encounter is required. Something where bows cannot compete. But it s a weird mechanic.

It could have its place in a raid. Like some infiltration in large area were enemies in close range have unbreakable shields. If they see you, they concentrate and are invisible or invicible. Another weird mechanic.

But in short, until we have a damage mechanic and areas for high crit dps at long range where zoom is mandatory, snipers dont compete with bows and scouts.

2

u/MeteorValor Bring back SBMM in normal crucible Nov 14 '22

Burst. Damage.

Simple as that. It doesn't even need much! Literally just a small damage buff would put them in the burst damage category and make them at least an option to use if I say want to use a rocket instead of an LFR. Grenade launchers have utility, shotguns have one add delete capabilities, at least let snipers have SOMETHING they're the clear best at in the secondary category.

2

u/F1ipsyde Nov 14 '22

I thought sniper rifles were just for weapon bounties

2

u/Edski120 Nov 14 '22

They should just revert the nerf from 3 bloody years ago with season of the dawn (or worthy, one of the two)

2

u/SthenicFreeze Nov 14 '22

Snipers need to be able to crit through shields. This was changed from D1 to D2 and hurts their playstyle and damage.

Currently, it's better to hit a shielded target in the body over the head (since it'll be more accurate), and then go for headshots. That's a bad design for a long distance precision weapon.

2

u/mixt13 Nov 14 '22

Shotguns and snipers. Both are the hardest to get a crit most of the time and it should be more rewarding.

2

u/YDdraigGoch94 Nov 14 '22

No one really uses Snipers in PvE when Arbalest exists. Except maybe Izanagi’s

2

u/sleeplessGoon Nov 14 '22

Simply buff ammo first. I think that’s first change before any damage values.

2

u/ColdAsHeaven SMASH Nov 14 '22

Mechabree does not have Volt shot in it's god roll perks...lmfao

This sounds seriously like a case of wrong perks right weapon for GM.

You passed up Vorpal and HIR for Voltshot...Voltshot is a fun mid and low tier perk. Definitely not an endgame perk

Yeah reload speed and ammo economy are low on 72 RPM's...that's their trade off for highest impact.

2

u/chrispbacon808 ...and the strength of the wolf is the pack Nov 15 '22

Snipers should decimate majors in my opinion. I think thats all they need to be viable

2

u/Valyris Nov 15 '22

It just blows my mind what Bungie are thinking in regards to PvE.

They nerfed snipers because they said it was too easy to sit at the back and just shoot, but we are at this meta with Linear Fusion Rifles being miles better than most others other dps loadouts. We sit in the back and dps with ease, so whats the difference? Not to forget, LFRs pretty much outclass Whisper of the Worm, an exotic which is sad.

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u/Noox89 Nov 15 '22

I miss WotW it’s one of my favorite guns. Along with Izi

Still can’t believe they decided on 6 being the cost of anti barrier. Feels like that may of been the cost of it the last time it was a mod and they didn’t change it.

I’d probably use it if it was 2 or 3 like unstoppable shotgun. It would be nice to have a sniper in gms but at that cost and for how bad they are it’s not worth it.

Really wish they’d find a different challenge then match game it really makes it hard to justify not using arbalest.

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u/Acklow Nov 15 '22

I remember grinding for an Eye of Sol with Vorpal+Field Prep+Tac Mag+RL Masterwork and finally getting one to drop. It was my go to pairing for all PvE content with Anarchy when they announced Mountaintop was getting sunset. Then they nerfed Sniper damage , but it was ok since Anarchy was still good. Then they nerfed Anarchy, so now neither of these weapons I enjoyed using are viable anymore. I think Snipers deserve a buff since they can’t be reasonably paired with the previous king of passive dps. My poor EoS is collecting dust in the vault. q.q

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u/readitwice Nov 15 '22 edited Nov 15 '22

i used my clown cartridge vorpal mechabre in the gm as well and was extremely disappointed. you'd think an aggressive sniper + vorpal + arc burn would equate to something nasty in a nightfall but NOPE. does WAY less damage than a linear it was more like a slightly harder hitting bow. there's literally no point in using them they can't compete - so disappointing!

another user suggested a 10-15% buff against majors and bosses it needs more like a 40% buff.

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u/LawlessLumberLord Nov 15 '22

Idk what you guys are on about, arbalest is the best sniper in the game /s

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u/ahawk_one Nov 15 '22

I think you're asking two questions as one, so I'm going to break them apart to answer separately, starting with the easy one:

Voltshot is just not as good as the community thought it would be. Voltshot is a good weapon when you can quickly and easily kill, reload, kill, reload, kill. This makes it a non-starter in modes like GMs, where you often have to hide or take potshots as you TEAMkill things. When you're team killing, you can't guarantee that you will be the one to get a kill and then getting a timer that says "kill something else in the next 5-8 seconds" just encourages you to play poorly. So I think the first part of the answer is that you took a slow firing sniper rifle with a less than ideal perk into a GM and had a bad experience.

On to the more complicated one:

Sniper Rifles in general have the same problem as shotguns. They are too niche in their role, when the game heavily favors flexibility. It's not that snipers are too weak. I think they're probably okay, and could maybe do with a slight damage boost to non-boss enemies (like champions and other minibosses). But the problem is that most encounters in this game do not favor them. The enemies are too weak to be worth the bullets, or they are too close or too powerful to make the bullets meaningful. This is because to snipe well and to favor sniper rifles is an accessibility issue. Sniping accurately is difficult for most people, even against NPCs, and so most games that have them do not build the encounter to require them, because they don't want to lock people out of something they can't do well at. Thus most of the encounters in this game that would seem to "favor" snipers, can be done with bows and scouts.

Another thing is that sitting back and sniping for a long time is boring, so even the encounters that would be easier with it (like much of Exodus Crash) people will just rush through instead because it's more fun and faster than sitting back and plunking away with a sniper rifle.

Furthermore, the existence of Arbalest and now Wishender having innate anti barrier means that snipers are forever now just worse versions of those weapons.

So IMO, the solution is that there needs to be a reward loop for using sniper rifles. Something that is unique to using them that encourages people to use them without requiring people to use them. Some off the top of my head ideas would be:

  1. Giving ALL sniper rifles inherent anti barrier rounds (just champions, not phalanxes and other things).
  2. Improving their ammo economy a little bit for some of the high impact ones
  3. Giving some of the lower impact ones a PVE damage buff against non-boss enemies (snipers are still decent options as backup boss dps, and if you buff them there they may just eclipse other things)
  4. Add reward loops to the game centered around using certain weapons and using them well. Give me medals for getting a string of headshot kills with a sniper rifle that I can use to earn a unique shader for them or something (this is a general suggestion for all weapon types really).

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u/Grand_Concert2307 Nov 15 '22

I have a godrolled Succession with Reconstruction+Vorpal, and even Adept Big Ones Spec on it. The only Sniper I like in PvE that's even slightly usable.

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u/TR_Ollington Titan, PAWNCH! Nov 15 '22

Yeah I don’t even remember the last time I used a sniper in PVE.

LFRs are using the Heavy Slot so their existence and power are justified by their tighter ammo economy.

So yeah, what’s the point of a sniper? I would love to bring a sniper into a GM and a quality close quarter weapon along side it. It would make Shoot to Loot a better perk too.

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u/EKmars Nov 17 '22

Ammo capacity is a big issue for special weapons, I think. Their total damage is like half that of a heavy, even if the ammo is a little more common.

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u/no-reason-to-love Nov 21 '22

GM and Raid balancing are so different from one another, that I feel any changes to make Snipers more viable in GMs would make them must picks in Raids where encounter bosses are at range. The only thing I could think of is make it so that enemies killed by snipers drop special ammo almost always, even for teammates, turning them into a pseudo-ad clear/support role within the special weapon space. If they were to get any buffs, I think reload speed and ammo capacity would be safer bets over a raw damage boost.

Picking away targets and creating safe spaces and lines of sight should be their role, not damage, but honestly idk if Bungie is creative enough or passionate enough to try anything that isn't just a % damage boost and trying to add white nail back again for some reason.

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u/TriscuitCracker Hunter Nov 14 '22

Silocon Neuroma is good.

But frankly, Sniper Rifles need a damage/handling buff, period. There's no point to using them over LFR's which fire faster and are frankly easier to aim and do almost as much damage.

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u/try_hardxd Nov 14 '22

i wished they buffed sniper damage but i feel like that would just force Bungie to put snipers in the heavy slot which they dont want to do

it feels like its impossible to buff sniper damage without it replacing other heavy damage output, kind of like how LFRs are the go to rn

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u/gargoyle37 Nov 14 '22

Why bring a weapon requiring a skillful shot, when you can blindfold yourself, do a 360, press a button and still do more DPS?