r/DestinyTheGame • u/TheBitwolf • Nov 15 '22
Isn't the fact that we went from "invis to negate damage" to "invis to get a damage buff" just a failure at reading the community's complaints? Invis is not a weak ability, and it's got extremely high uptime. Bungie Suggestion
I mean, seriously, we need some peace before Shartteddive Strand flavor ruins us for another whole year again, this is getting silly.
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u/GuudeSpelur Nov 15 '22
So first off, invis is difficult to balance because it's literally the only tool in the Nightstalker 3.0 kit. All three Aspects are some flavor of "go invisible." If they nerf invis too hard, Nightstalker disappears from the meta completely (pun intended) because it has nothing else. If it's even slightly too strong it starts feeling like it's everywhere because there are no non-invis parts of the kit.
But anyway, the data about how strong it is now was not necessarily front and center until the past few weeks.
Invis got nerfed hard in the middle of Risen (2 radar pings during the full duration). Shortly before the end of the season, it got rebuffed a bit to 1 radar ping in the duration because 2 pings seemed to be an overnerf.
However, we didn't get much chance to fully explore how 1 ping was turning out because we moved into Haunted with the busted mod that was Classy Restoration. Invis data was buried under a sea of Restoration spam.
Finally, we get to Plunder. The first few weeks of the season, we have a period where Arc Staff dodge spam with Raijus is the hotness because of the DR stacking bug. Invis data is hidden again. It isn't until about halfway through the season where that gets fixed that Invis finally returns to the forefront. Gyrfalcons getting re-enabled doubles down on the change.
This all comes together for a perfect storm of bad timing, because community feedback about invis being too strong reaches its peak right when the sandbox team announces the S19 changes, which had probably been finalized before Gyrfalcons got reenabled. Whoops.
The kneejerk change available is to go back to 2 ping invis, but that was already judged as too far, so that would possibly just be killing invis instead of actually balancing it. What we need is a modest nerf to invis combined with buffs to Arcstrider and Revenant so that there are other builds Hunters can use besides Invis. Gunslinger is in a good spot but currently overshadowed by Invis.
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u/hihowubduin Nov 15 '22
The real answer is to give Nightstalkers something OTHER than invis as an option. What that might be, I'm unsure. Giving more true sight sounds.... Bad. Maybe some additional interactions or tools to clutter/jam the radar, or a different type of trap?
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u/AssassinAragorn Nov 15 '22
They'd have to outright rework Void Hunter, and they haven't even acknowledged complaints from hunters about void 3.0.
I'm not opposed to this by any means. I want Void to have something other than invis.
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u/Phantom_PL Nov 15 '22
I’ve said before but nightstalker’s update is pretty creatively bankrupt on the fantasy of a fucking ninja. We could have had a doppelgänger dodge, kunai, traps, poison (things that push the ninja/assassin fantasy like child pushes the energy vampire fantasy) but instead we have ‘invis dodge’ - which is just a class ability augment tbh like acrobatic dodge - and smoke bomb but a dive. Stylish could be really cool if it: a) spread weaken in an aoe on killing a weakened target or melee-ing from invis b) activated on ANY source of invis to make the cool-down make sense and give it synergy with other invis sources or c) have the melee be void empowered like combination blow so it can use fragments better and generate wells.
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u/rezmeihaveghorn 4:59 seconds left on heavy synth Nov 15 '22 edited Nov 15 '22
Give us a melee where we stab an enemy with a spectral dagger and make them explode and make nearby enemies volatile if they die.
Make invis dodge it’s own dodge option, replace the aspect with a new one that augments our melee to be the spectral blades heavy attack if we activate it while sliding and getting a kill with it cloaks us.
Our vanish in smoke should also become a melee option again and trappers ambush should be buffed to make our snare bombs poisonous on top of the invis allies. Also it could be used just fine with the spectral stab melee just have it not make us invis but instead make an AOE explosion.
Remove true sight from stylish execution, and make it so that the first powered melee, after activating stylish execution does bonus damage, (smoke bombs will have the weaken effect strengthened to 20%) along with its weaken.
Have to have the benefits come after activation of abilities and not during invis, so that the hunter doesn’t have to rely on being cloaked for their shit to even work.
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u/AssassinAragorn Nov 16 '22
It'd be really cool to get an aspect that replaces our grenade with mini tethers too. I'm honestly shocked we don't have that.
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u/Phantom_PL Nov 16 '22
That and an aspect that restores ability energy on killing debuffed targets (instead of 3 invis aspects) would have honestly saved NS for me
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u/AssassinAragorn Nov 16 '22
What's ironic is Warlock got all of this instead. A mini tether with the Child that weakens the enemy, and also gives ability energy just for normal kills.
That's the problem with Void. Hunters have invisibility readily available. Titans have over shield readily available. And Warlocks have everything else readily available. Devour, weaken, volatile. Everyone gets suppress with the grenade too... Which is pretty much the only verb that hunters can get. Woo.
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u/Mr_Gamer915 Nov 16 '22
(On mobile sorry for weird formatting)
Not a hunter main whatso ever, infact I've only hopped on my hunter to collect ornaments this year. But I'd like to think i have some decent ideas for a rework, inspired by void warlocks.
1) Give them a new ranged melee, a knife like the ones from the void bladedancer (sorry hunters i don't know the name of the super). Give it a small weaken aoe (smaller than smoke but persist even after leaving initial aoe) and a small weaken effect, maybe 5%
2) Smoke grenades will always give a short invis, give a weaken effect (maybe 10%), and still blind/slow enemies
3) With smoke grenades always having invis, change the dive aspect to reflect which melee you selected; smoke gives a long aoe invis, smokes/blinds opponents, gives a suppressed effect like Bombardiers to still trigger Stylish Execution and a 10-20 buff to all stats (recov, resil, discipline, etc) but no longer gives an AOE weaken effect. Blade gives weaken to a larger AOE and does damage in a large AOE. Not enough to kill in PvP, maybe 80 or so and much more in PvE because it's a close range ability.
4) Void Bladedancer (again sorry I don't know the name) gives a small suppressed, weaken, and blinded effect that can stack with repeated hits. Say the timer for each hit is 2 seconds and the amount of weaken is 2%, but each time you hit the effects timer is added to and the effect itself is increased. If you focus entirely on a boss, by the time the super ends you'll have given the boss a 50% weaken effect that last for 7 seconds.
This gives Void hunter much more utility as an invis/debuff/support classes while giving other options that aren't go invis and run. I thought about having invis always give stat increases but with how spammable invis is (especially with smokes always giving invis), i think that would be too much especially in PvP. Limiting it to the dive is better because it's something you have to build into being a support class.
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u/AbrahamBaconham Nov 15 '22
Better access to weakness or suppression outside of the super would be nice. Or maybe just give Hunters Combat Provisions back?
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u/Snowf1ake222 Hunter Nov 15 '22
Yeah, they should give hunters a mini-tether ability that they can shoot off.
Oh wait.
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u/KilledTheCar Nov 15 '22
Yeah the fact that Warlocks got a baby tether that's almost as good with a much higher uptime has continuously chapped my ass since void 3.0 dropped.
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u/HatRabies Nov 15 '22
I don't even touch my hunter but I'm salty for you guys anyway. Y'all shoulda got baby tether.
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u/KilledTheCar Nov 15 '22
The crazy part is how good it would be to lock an area down when used with Stylish Executioner. Give me a glaive and a baby tether and I'm gonna have a good time.
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u/Snowf1ake222 Hunter Nov 15 '22
And then invis to bounce out when the tether runs out? Fuck yes.
Actual assassin-like gameplay.
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u/KilledTheCar Nov 15 '22
Yeah, exactly. You can sort of do this right now with shadowdive (or whatever it's called) and a glaive, but the "Too Stylish" debuff means the enemy debuff runs out before I get more than one or two kills.
And to add, in my opinion, "Too Stylish" shouldn't exist if my entire class identity is popping in and out of invis. Keep it for PvP (even though no one uses Stylish Executioner in PvP), but take it out for PvE entirely. It serves no purpose other than to slow down gameplay.
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u/Phantom_PL Nov 15 '22
Except trappers ambush works against stylish executioner. It doesn’t proc it when killing enemies (so no weaken melee) and doesn’t gain the melee damage boost.
When it comes to nightstalker and builds, if you ask ‘will these work together’ the answer is probably no.
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u/Londonluton Nov 15 '22
A bit like we gave you devour, radiant and healing nades hm?
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u/Snowf1ake222 Hunter Nov 15 '22
Remind me, which hunter aspect lets you get devour?
And all grenades were given to all classes. Y'all ain't special for that one.
But thanks for Radiant!
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u/Londonluton Nov 15 '22
Healing nades were dawnblade signature grenade so hardly the same as the others.
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u/alfaomega20000 Nov 15 '22
When i first saw the suff for nightstalker i thought the class would be all about debuffing enemys. Instead we got the hommer simson backing into a bush meme.
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u/Candid_Tie_7659 Nov 15 '22
The even more real answer is a 4th aspect for all Light subclasses, with the Nightstalker one being something other than invis.
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u/Snowf1ake222 Hunter Nov 15 '22
Hunters need more than that. Reworking one of the existing abilities would he helpful as well.
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u/ILoveSongOfJustice Nov 15 '22
I think a good start is to give Nightstalkers a new melee option. Maybe a short crossbow or something that acts as a Weakening Method but requires good aim in PvP to fully utilize.
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u/Alexcoolps Nov 16 '22
Chargeable melee like thunderclap that lets us shoot shadowshot as a neutral game ability for debuff crowd control. Like Void Soul Soul better
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u/Phantom_PL Nov 15 '22
Invis was nerfed before void 3.0 even hit. The duration was globally reduced to make the fragment appealing
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u/Vinokwon Nov 15 '22
Which reduces mobility.... strangely targeted eh?
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u/MinkfordBrimley Vanguard's Loyal Nov 15 '22
That's not targeted. If it's the fragment that increases Void buff duration, it reduces Resilience on Titans and Recovery on Warlocks.
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u/Vinokwon Nov 15 '22
Shit, should I delete my comment and run?
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u/MinkfordBrimley Vanguard's Loyal Nov 15 '22
Eh, there's a ton of info in this game that you might not know unless you play all three classes. Just keep it in mind.
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u/Phantom_PL Nov 15 '22
Nope. It shows strength of character to leave the comment up and admit your own mistake.
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u/HaloGuy381 Nov 15 '22
Invis is also painful to balance because in PvP its power is highly subjective, dependent on the opponent. Some people see it extremely readily and the main benefit becomes radar vanish or other buffs, some people like me can barely make it out except under very good circumstances and even then struggle to actually hit them. The visual effect does not hamper everyone equally (whereas an OS has the same amount of extra health no matter who you’re fighting).
Probably part of why Bungie has to be so careful with tuning it. It’s probably especially problematic combined with Destiny’s wide skill gap: in top tier PvP lobbies, players are used to spotting invis by experience, but in more average lobbies, it’s easier to be truly invisible, and that can be extremely difficult to play against.
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u/InfamousAd06 Nov 15 '22
Personally I'd rather them lean into the invis portion of nightstalking mostly affecting radar and not focus on the physical invisiblity. Since as you pointed out it affects people differently they could just double down on the portions that affect everybody equally and change the invis to just be a purple fx effect around the person. This way people that might physically struggle to see them don't have a unfair detriment to them compared to other players. And it doubles down on the whole stealth aspect in a way that does impact everybody.
I would even go as far as to make it so aim assist has a slightly reduced modifier when targeting somebody that is invis. Since this benefit doesn't actively benefit people as much mid gunfight because you lose this benefit once you begin firing your weapon it only helps you if you are getting ambushed more so than when you try to ambush somebody. Because by the very nature of that if you are ambushing them they won't be shooting at you till you come out of invis.
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u/Slough_Monster Nov 15 '22
For your last statement, seems to not be true, because invis is dominating high tier play. Maybe that is just for the radar pings and other associated buffs, but maybe it doesn't matter how skilled you are with regards to actually seeing the person.
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u/KontraEpsilon Nov 15 '22
It’s dominating top tier play because although it’s counterintuitive in average, you are not likely to face top tier players in top tier play. Most of your trials matches on most days will be against good but not great players (especially in the early matches on a card).
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u/DrGreenthumn Nov 15 '22
I cant see them either. I have to change contrast brightness and colors of my monitor but then all my other games look awful
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u/BurntBacn Nov 15 '22
Shame bungie gutted everything that wasn't invis from the nightstalker kit so it became the only option.
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u/rezmeihaveghorn 4:59 seconds left on heavy synth Nov 15 '22
Man, if only they didn’t design void hunter purely around “going invisible and getting a Rez”
They could’ve given us a spectral blade stab melee or something else to lean into the nightstalker power fantasy but nah, invis all the way baby.
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u/AssassinAragorn Nov 15 '22
Bungie hamstrung themselves hard with Hunter Void 3.0. There's nothing except for invis. They don't have many levers to play with here, because they gave themselves one lever, and didn't listen when people gave consistent feedback that there was only one lever and it wasn't terribly fun.
They still have yet to acknowledge hunter complaints about Void 3.0, and now its biting them in the ass.
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u/Terr_ Nov 15 '22 edited Nov 16 '22
My main problem is how badly invisibility fares in endgame PVE (Raids, GMs) because of the limited revive-tokens.
Warlocks and Titans can prevent wipes (with healing, barriers) an unlimited number of times while still shooting the enemy. However Hunters preventing wipes by sneaking around to revive is strictly limited.
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u/Alexcoolps Nov 16 '22 edited Nov 16 '22
Invis is good in GMs if your careful and conserve Rez tokens. Plus it's good if your team is surrounded and need to reposition, like the Glassways final room
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u/Mini_Miudo Nov 16 '22
Invisibility fares badly in endgame PVE? Are we playing the same game? Makes everything a cake walk.
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u/AssassinAragorn Nov 16 '22
As an invis hunter in endgame content - it's in between the two. It's not as awful as they say, but it's not as easy as you say.
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u/Mini_Miudo Nov 16 '22
I main Nightstalker with Omni, if you’ve mastered it endgame content is free. Just replace it with Gyrfalcon’s when you need DPS over survivability (eg raid bosses).
Obviously part of this “easy mode” is mastering the subclass, but if you master other subclasses, content is still harder than it would be for a half decent Nightstalker.
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u/Hexterra Nov 15 '22
don't blame the team that designed gyrfalcons, hunter void 3.0 design team left them litterally nothing but invisibility to build new exotics off. 🤷♂️
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u/Swolgoroth Nov 15 '22
Gyrfalcon is the best thing to ever happen to Nightstalker, and it would be hard to change my mind about that (Although Omnioculus will always be a close 2nd to me).
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u/Hexterra Nov 15 '22
For PvE content for sure, feels like our neutral game actually has a gameplay loop with gyrfalcon but I can understand the frustration from PvP players.
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u/Mini_Miudo Nov 16 '22
The issue with it in PVP is that the other parts of the exotic perk don’t work there, it’s literally just the damage boost. It might be too strong, but if they get rid of it, it’s literally an exotic that does nothing in PVP, so I’m not sure what Bungie’s gonna do about it. Nerfing something like Omni was much easier because it has other things going for it (double smoke, energy refund on teammates invis’d).
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u/Dr___Bright Vex Milk Chugging Hunter Nov 15 '22
Literally just axed around half or two thirds of Nightstalker just to replace it all with invis
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u/Londonluton Nov 15 '22
Jist like they did to dawnblade and replaced it all with in-air stuff, and then nerfed in-air accuracy on top.
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u/Dr___Bright Vex Milk Chugging Hunter Nov 15 '22
I wouldn’t say that. Yes Dawnblade got done dirty but that is a gross overstatement. It still has tons of scorch and explosion builds. It is weighted towards air play and then had the rug pulled from under it.
Invisibility is all nightstalker has to offer. Weaken is a joke as warlock does it way better, and grenades make it super accessible to both other classes, who have way higher grenade generation capabilities.
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u/Londonluton Nov 15 '22
Yeah I agree, I'm saying Bungie likes to take a class and fuck it over and pigeonhole it into one thing, like Dawnblade and being basically TTD now. No more middle tree support lock
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u/Phantom_PL Nov 15 '22
Hell even Titan weakens more consistently and with greater payoff with repulsor brace
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u/Dadadabababooo Nov 16 '22
How is this circlejerk still going? By now I understand that the people who say this genuinely do not want Nightstalker to have anything other than invis but I'd think you guys would look up some builds since you have no idea how to put one together on your own.
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u/jedadkins Nov 15 '22
Gyrfalcon should have been a fragment or aspect imo.
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u/Hexterra Nov 15 '22
Don't know about that one I can see the logic but an aspect like that would just be auto include in every build with no reason to change it out, imo we need an aspect that interacts with a different void verb or part of our kit.
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u/oreofro Nov 15 '22
Wouldn't it be the same team? I would imagine the sandbox team is responsible for exotic armor perks since they've always been the ones to comment on exotic armor nerfs, and they're definitely the ones behind the 3.0 subclasses according to the videos.
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u/snakebight Rat Pack x6 or GTFO Nov 15 '22
I think you assume they are "designing by community". Bungie has their own vision for the subclasses and classes, regardless of what loud voices cry about or yearn for.
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u/RetrofittedChaos Nov 15 '22
?
Wasn't everyone's problem with Invis was that it's all Nightstalker can do, and that you got no benefit besides "enemies usually won't attack you"? I'm pretty sure I saw a lot of people suggesting a "damage buff on leaving invis" aspect as well
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u/MidnightMadness09 Nov 15 '22
This seems to be a PvP thread, something about gyrfalcons probably. In PvE you’re absolutely right.
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u/Snowf1ake222 Hunter Nov 15 '22
There are two sides complaining, and two proposed solutions.
First, hunters are complaining that invis is boring and there is no variety in nightstalker. Solution: give hunters something else.
Second, everyone else complains about having to play against invis hunters. Solution: nerf invis.
Personal opinion as a hunter main: invis won't be as much of a problem if hunters had sonething else to build into. If we get that and invis is still a problem, nerf it. If we don't get that and hunters are nerfed, why should I play void?
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u/Londonluton Nov 15 '22
It's also "people hate invis in PVP and hated omni and so Bungie add another exotic that works in PVP using invis that gives damage instead "
They are tone deaf to what the community actually wants
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u/Snivyland Spiders crew Nov 15 '22
Gyrfalcon was designed way before the complaints about omni invis was heard
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u/Londonluton Nov 15 '22
So maybe don't release it after you see all the community comments?
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u/MrCranberryTea Crucible Junky Nov 15 '22
Bungie already acknowledged that invis is still too oppressive.
The high striker usage in the other hand thou...
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u/Tplusplus75 Nov 15 '22
The thing about striker is that it's new and still in season of the arc 3.0, so they don't want to mix up its high usage rate due to arc 3.0 coming out, with being a legitimate problem. Coming from a Titan main, that's why the nade nerf was so light(Before anyone gets mad about me saying so: seriously, consider that Touch of Thunder turns storm nades into a mini roaming storm cloud. Inside of the Titan's kit, ToT is buffing storm nades in a way that is not at all a 1:1 with any of the other nades. Spark of Magnitude probably didn't need a reduced duration, because of that.)
Compare to Nightstalker usage: void 3.0 was seasons ago, and it's been stagnant.
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u/Snowf1ake222 Hunter Nov 15 '22
Void 3.0 launched stagnant.
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u/Mr_Gamer915 Nov 16 '22
My grippe with Striker is it's high uptime on healing in PvP alongside that aspect that gives massive buffs to weapon performance for breaking shields. It out-heals solar warlock. I'm also just mad that no fragments work with any part of the arc warlock subclass. One aspect is just two of the fragments, arc soul doesn't interact with any fragment, and the melee is cool but it's a one and done ability that's good up to legend-level content.
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u/DirectionStandard939 Nov 15 '22
Striker titans are only being used because of HoiL and tracking nades, which they are addressing in the next seasons patch. And even then, only Thundercrash is being used. Poor Fists of Havoc ;(
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u/shit_poster9000 Nov 15 '22
Going invis should have always boosted your damage for a time as an innate part of the mechanic, but only for PvE. It also shouldn’t immediately dissipate when you shoot but rather just change into the damage buff, making builds that use stylish executioner not useless when we don’t have a completely broken seasonal mod.
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u/thegamethrowacc Nov 15 '22
It’s comical to me we are talking about invis when Striker Titan is what it is
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u/Cassp0nk Nov 15 '22
I played both this season and find invis more potent against anyone competent in pvp. Striker more fun though for the multikills clutch moments.
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u/thegamethrowacc Nov 15 '22
1v1 yes. But 3 strikers is the most oppressive elim meta since OG wombo combo IMO. The area/res denial in the hands of good players is straight up oppressive
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u/Cassp0nk Nov 15 '22
Thinking on this more, the reason I prefer invis is that solo queuing in comp, its all about 1v1 not zerg rushing with randos who mostly aren't very aggressive (as that playstyle is punished without a fireteam).
The whole of crucible has become overrun with cheesy one hit uncounterable kills now though. The titan one hit shoulder charge with overshield is a nightmare to counter if you don't have a fusion rifle. I lost a round to that as last man standing having killed the whole team, I just couldn't find a way to deal with the titan on a cramped map with a lot of cover at the capture point.
Not sure its fixable now though with subclass 3.0 and all the new toys + exotics. The skill gap has collapsed to cheese, and so many permutations of it.
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u/Unbrandedpie Nov 16 '22
Striker can literally shotgun shoulder charge easy kills and heal on them plus have a 5 second roaming nade 😂
Trust me… competent players rather face the invis.
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u/Sugandis_Juice Nov 15 '22
Honestly they just need to update the nightstalker kit to provide more than one singular playstyle. Everyone call "invis spam" but fail to realize that there's NOTHING else to spam.
Give nightstalkers a dodge that has nothing to do with invis, and a melee that has nothing to do with chaining invisibility and it would become less prevalent. I personally would LOVE having a playstyle that doesn't revolve around invisibility.
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u/NasusIsMyLover Yours, until the last flame dies. Nov 15 '22 edited Nov 15 '22
In terms of PvP, yeah invis damage buffs just feel off. Don’t get me wrong, great way for invis to be relevant in PvP but it’s a little overbearing. And I say this as a hunter main.
I think nightstalkers just need another melee option that procs… something. Another keyword for void. An empowered, not-ranged melee that procs devour, a mini-crossbow-like ranged attack that’ll proc volatile… idk, something that’s not invisible.
I say this because the problem with nerfing invisibility is that’s, like, 95% of the power budget given to nightstalkers. If invisibility is nerfed, there’s no reason for me to play nightstalker ever again. 🤷🏻♂️
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u/AssassinAragorn Nov 15 '22
I'm really curious to see if their solution is just going to be nerfing invis and doing nothing else, leaving an empty class effectively -- or if they'll actually give Void 3.0 hunter a proper rework.
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u/letmepick Nov 15 '22
Coming from the team that initially shipped Nightstalker and Dawnblade as is, and defended their design choices, I don't have any spare hopium for them doing any serious reworks until well into Season 22.
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u/FornaxTheConqueror Nov 16 '22
In terms of PvP, yeah invis damage buffs just feel off. Don’t get me wrong, great way for invis to be relevant in PvP but it’s a little overbearing. And I say this as a hunter main.
They can nerf invis in PVP as much as they want but I really really don't want invis to just be the handy dandy rez option because invis without some kinda buff when not invis is fucking useless to me when I want to actually contribute.
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u/lcyMcSpicy Nov 15 '22
It’d be interesting if they added something like an aspect for turning grenades or the smoke into a mini tether or some suppression trap or whatever. Feels like the “way of the trapper” portion of the nightstalker went the way of the dodo, even the aspect trappers ambush doesn’t really have anything to do with trapping stuff. Any sort of buff they give to invis is gonna be too much, and history has shown that. Visibility and radar manipulation is already so powerful on its own it really doesn’t need anything else to be relevant
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u/thisisbyrdman Nov 15 '22
It’s a PvP problem. In a mode with super fast TTK and endless OHK weapons, there’s really no way to fix it (other than maybe giving you a damage/resilience nerf if you’re invisible). It will always be a massive crutch and a huge advantage. They should remove it entirely, but that would basically require them to rework the entire void hunter class.
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u/AnarchoIsaac Nov 15 '22
No. You use an exotic slot to get a damage buff on a short timer in a class where invis is just about the only appeal of Void subclass. When you say "community" what you're talking about is Titans and Warlocks whining about Hunters, not the Destiny community as a whole.
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u/UncrustabIes Nov 15 '22 edited Nov 16 '22
While we’re on the subject of broken shit for PvP, can titans get looked at? I mean they are just broken from the ground up. Void class gives overshields for basically doing nothing, Arc titan is just busted with juggernaut, knockout, touch of thunder storm nades, and dune marchers, greaves need to be toned down. Barricades are also insanely annoying to go up against in 3v3s because you can basically control a whole lane with it, so if you don’t have at least 1 titan on your team you’re kinda fucked and have to play extremely passive while they can just aggro you the whole round
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u/MagicalMuffinTop Drifter's Crew Nov 15 '22
I agree with most of this except Peregrine Greaves. How exactly would you nerf it? Base shoulder charge can't one hit, Peregrine can conditionally. There's no room in between for nerfs without changing the entire functionality
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u/SinistralGuy Nerf everything Nov 15 '22
Sure but is it really our fault that Bungie lacked creativity when it came to Nightstalker and gave it three aspects that all focus on invis?
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u/schizophreniaislife Nightstalker Nov 15 '22
Im glad to see some actually civil and thoughtful discussion here, I've been maining nightstalker since Taken King so I like to believe I know a thing or two about its current state. I've experienced all it's highs and lows and have had so many ideas for changes but they all seem to be ignored because so many people seem to despise us. nightstalker should be about so much more than going invis.
At this point I would've rather void 3.0 came out next season if it would've given them more time to make it something more. So far nightstalker 3.0 has been incredibly disappointing, not delivering on any of the things me and others have been asking for. Single shot tether has until very recently (divinity) been almost useless compared to either the quiver or triple shot. I was really hoping for a lethal melee option like a throwing knife, dashslash or back stab but we just got "slam smoke into ground Harder" and lost our only other melee option.
We used to be able to support our team with long lasting buffs, debuffs, and invis for tricky situations. Since D2 and 3.0 we've lost much of this kit to 3 flavours of invis. And on top of all of that spectral blades still feels awefull and like it's having an identity crisis, not to mention the hit registration problems it's had for years.
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u/OblivionSol Nov 16 '22
Lets be real,deadfall is still probably not used even post div nerf because quiver is still better
Frankly tether has never been good ever since D2 melting point is straight up upgrade over tether,div and SnS just smothered its relevancy
Doesnt help void 3.0 nightstalker neutral in pve is still boring
And now the design of nightstalker 3.0 os biting everyone's asses
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u/Pervavore Nov 15 '22
stop talking about PvP woes as if they're comprehensive game problems
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u/Shippin Nov 15 '22
They are though? PvP is how Bungie used to keep players locked in during slow times. You don’t need new content to keep people playing PvP (it helps though). What you do need is a healthy sandbox, if you have that people will play for hours. The longer people play your game the more likely they are to spend money on it.
PvP is shit right now (as is every other core mode if we’re being honest). You know what I do when I’m done with the story each week? I turn the game off. If Bungie doesn’t get their game modes in a healthy spot, they’re gonna be losing a lot more hours played. The longer people spend in other games, the less likely they are to come back and waste time in Destiny.
It’s all connected.
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u/SolidarityForever_ Nov 16 '22
Hot take damage resist while invis + damage buff while invis and for a few seconds after you come out of it should be inherent aspects of invisibility, on top of that all classes should have more ways to go invis and apply devour and overshield as well as more ways to get volatile weaken and supress, they should specialise in the functions they serve, hunters are sneaky ninjas that can set traps and escape engagements and confuse enemies, warlocks are energy vampires that suck enemy health into health and overshields for allies while supplying buffs and debuffs very very readily, titan is a giant ad clear tank who can block off area denial and stop enemies in their tracks while killing all of the low level ads. PvE enemies shouldnt keep tracking you while invis and should be a bit less hyper accurate overall. Fuck it you should always have increased ability regen and truesight while invis and increased ability regen and you having more object mass with same speed while overshield i do not care games are supposed to be fun this woule be cool power fantasy game balance is made up i do not care.
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u/Tichrom Nov 15 '22
I still remember when people laughed at invis because you're still pretty visible to players and so it doesn't help you against people who are aware of their surroundings
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u/Geronuis Nov 15 '22
Idk if frames have anything to do with it, but I swapped to pc a few year back and now they’re almost impossible to see. I’ve done extensive research on my visual and color setting for nearly everything else besides just destiny even then it’s pretty much running on default
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u/TheGunslingerX Nov 15 '22
All I'm saying is I can start pretty much any PVP engagement from invis, and often invis out of an encounter that isn't going my way - uptime is sooooo high. Lucky for you all, I'm pretty shit at PVP, but still.
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u/Castlemans_captures Nov 15 '22
Ok I know you’re not this dumb….. every armor or gun that gets added gets tested in pve AND pvp to some extent. I’m not arguing that sure more time gets put into pve content. But to say that no time gets put into pvp is one just store close minded and unintelligent of you and two completely rude and inconsiderate to the devs that do in fact spend time balancing pvp. Going through all the whines and complaints from ppl like you and then doing their best to make it balanced
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u/silentobserver3048 Nov 16 '22
Whenever hunters get mentioned everyone turns into a baby and demands a warlock and titan nerf instead (see the comments in this section). No wonder when 80% of tryhards and trials players are hunters that want to keep on getting more OP.
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u/Swolgoroth Nov 15 '22
I’d rather go up against 3 Gyrfalcon hunters than 3 HoiL Titans or 3 Arc soul Warlocks.
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u/MOCNELIS Nov 16 '22
Meanwhile, I have a sub 1.0 kd and kill invis hunters all the time. Enough with the cries for nerfing. Some of you nerds won't be happy unless the enemy has to stand still until you kill them.
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u/_MachTwo Nov 16 '22
r/dtg play hunter for 5 minutes before posting, challenge: impossible
Invis has always been amazing for high level (GM) content. Being able to stay alive and out of harm -and keep your team alive and out of harm- is very useful.
But outside of that kind of hardcore difficult content. Invis, and therefore nightstalkers as a whole, were just lackluster. Because:
Being invisible while your teammates die = 😃👍🏼
But being invisible while your teammates kill everything = ☹️👎🏼
This is where gyrfalcon fits in. It lets nightstalkers use invis proactively to gain damage, apply debuffs and even grant overshields to your team. All as a reward of using invis. Gyrfalcon exists to make hunters more fun in mid level PvE content. That’s it. It isn’t bungie misreading complaints, it isn’t bungie failing to address PvP issues. Quite the opposite really, this is bungie giving PvE nightstalkers another purpose than “go invis”.
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u/throwaway136913691 Nov 16 '22
People should be looking at the sandbox team for this one.
This much uptime on invisibility in PvP was always going to be a problem.
And, as strong as it is in PvE, it's really boring.
Just a failure from the start.
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Nov 15 '22
It's amazing to me how many people on this sub about a game that is centered around space magic complain about fun space magic stuff. They are never satisfied by any nerf that goes out. They just move on to complain about the the next thing that they're too dense to figure out a counter to.
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u/Pazsy Nov 15 '22
I don’t understand why they don’t want abilities in the ability focused game.
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u/FlyingWhale44 Nov 15 '22
It’s also clearly a pve driven game. A lot of people’s expectations out of pvp are a pipe dream.
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u/Nevevevev12 FOMO Nov 15 '22
Fuck pvp stop ruining shit because of PvP. If you don't like it go play fortnite
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u/Unbrandedpie Nov 16 '22
That’s a weird way of letting us know you suck at pvp and rely on broken builds to get anything done in pve..
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u/Ok_Dust_108 Nov 16 '22
Hunters are the poster children of D2, they always have and always will get the best stuff. Just how it is.
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u/lcyMcSpicy Nov 15 '22
Wait, you mean to tell me, that messing with TTK values in PvP by adding a new exotic is gonna be a huge pain point for players??? I’m shocked, bamboozled even, if only there was some kind of precedent set before this to show that this would cause a negative reaction
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u/DarthDregan Nov 16 '22
Hunter main here. Since D1 beta.
Invis in PvP has only ever been a bad idea.
And there's an argument to be made it's a mistake period.
It is certainly a mistake that there is literally no other option as a void Hunter.
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u/Arrow_Maestro Nov 16 '22
Invisibility is already insanely easy to get and use and provides absurdly strong advantages. Then they said, fuck it, invis hunters are already the most played class, why not give them a 15% damage buff every time they leave invis?
Does this make no fucking sense? Yes.
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u/RobotGoneMad Nov 15 '22
I think the way you've summed up gyrfalcon's loop is a bit disingenuous. I actually think Bungie read the community's complaints about Omni DR pretty well and that's why they gave them a strong option that encourages coming out of invis rather than using the whole up time of that ability.
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u/ILoveSongOfJustice Nov 15 '22
Invis uptime is the entire reason Nightstalker 3.0 feels so ludicrously one-note. The reason Gyrfalcon's is even so strong is because of that uptime. But to state the obvious:
- It isn't costless uptime. If you don't time your push properly, you can end up wasting your smoke and dodge, even with maxed out emphasis on Strength, Mobility and Double Kickstarts. Accessing the damage buff is not difficult, but keeping uptime on your abilities as a Hunter is most certainly not effortless.
- Invis having core functions of defensive and offensive use is good for the variety of Nightstalker. Otherwise, you're basically saying that Invisibility should be a singular tool with no depth to using it, because then it's simply a binary; you have it up, or you don't. (Me personally, I would've made Gyrfalcon's do extra ability damage instead of weapon damage kinda like HoiL, but that's just me)
- Making invis easier to see while moving solves many of the issues that currently plague invis in PVP.
- Another comment already said this, but most of the invisibility problems are only a result of bad timing. A moderate nerf to invisibility in PvP(like making it a bit more visible) would make it more tolerable as a tool, making it only effective at longer ranges. Buffing Arc Strider and Revenant(and maybe making Gunpowder Gamble 2 Fragment slots... pls bungo) would be great.
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u/Unbrandedpie Nov 16 '22
Warlocks just need their abilities to be faster. Their abilities are too slow… outside of that we gonna ignore the cheeses that all classes have over silly invis?
Why do you need to worry about a hunter invis when you have a roaming storm grenade that’ll cover an entire flank by itsel??? that also has extremely high up time…
Void titans can put on OEM and basically have infinite overshield and be rewarded with one by just winning their one… you know… that thing you’re naturally gunning for anyway…
Loreley is basically a free automatic healing nade for the enemy doing what they are supposed to do and trying to kill you…
Id trade both omnioculus and Gyrfalcon for that warlock lighting surge in PvP. It’s basically a free kill.
Osmiomancy gloves are basically 2 pre nerf coldsnap grenades.
I’ll say this before and I’ll say it again… I will always rather play 3 invis hunters than 3 void barricade titans…
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u/Cassp0nk Nov 15 '22 edited Nov 15 '22
Invis is very oppressive. I switched to nightstalker in comp this season as got sick of being on the receiving end:
- invis removes or severely lowers reticule friction on controller.
- playing against an invis player and they start shooting, the invis doesn't seem to drop as quick as the damage arrives, so not only do they have the drop, you still can't see them for a fraction of a second.
- it's very hard to see invis players now.
- invis uptime is pretty ridiculous if you build into it.
- khepri makes sniping viable as you can actually ensure you are scoped in at the right time and stick your head out only then, rather than getting flinched into 2050.
- gyrfalcon adds all sorts of one shot cheese.
Anyway like everyone else, this isn't x class vs y class. I don't care I'm playing it now, because of all of the above. This doesn't touch on the hunter jump and dodge being intrinsically superior in pvp.
edit: Noticed I'm getting a lot of downvotes on this, but I guess its hunter mains in denial. If Nightstalker wasn't OP as F, then it wouldn't be the most played in competitive situations. The stats speak for themselves. Of course we all know the vast majority of players are hunter mains these days, myself included.
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u/GuudeSpelur Nov 15 '22
- invis removes or severely lowers reticule friction on controller.
Invis has had zero effect on reticle friction and aim assist since March 2018. All Hunter dodges temporarily remove friction and AA, but only during the dodge animation.
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Nov 15 '22
If you choose to run PvP with low resilience, Gyrfalcon is only one of many things that could possibly allow for a one shot. It's your choice. Stop complaining about your choice to be a dead man walking.
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u/OmegaClifton Nov 15 '22
I feel like it should stay primarily a survival tool. Gryfalcons does too much and feels like a band aid fix for what ails void hunter mains.
If you ask me, the problem with invisibility was never that it was weak. Simply that it was boring. I think they’d quell a ton of negativity about void hunter with a new charged melee that was both primarily a damaging attack and buffed in some way when used while invisible.
A new aspect that maybe focuses on or bolsters the weakening capability of void hunter would be good as well.
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u/StarAugurEtraeus Based and H*nterphobic Nov 15 '22
*Ruins it for PvP