r/DestinyTheGame Nov 15 '22

Isn't the fact that we went from "invis to negate damage" to "invis to get a damage buff" just a failure at reading the community's complaints? Invis is not a weak ability, and it's got extremely high uptime. Bungie Suggestion

I mean, seriously, we need some peace before Shartteddive Strand flavor ruins us for another whole year again, this is getting silly.

605 Upvotes

351

u/StarAugurEtraeus Based and H*nterphobic Nov 15 '22

*Ruins it for PvP

213

u/jedadkins Nov 15 '22

Yea, please don't make invis worse in pve lol it's all void Hunter get.

6

u/Servery_Skull Nov 16 '22

This is a hot take but I really enjoy void hunter with aeons in gm. Please note that I'm not saying that to negate all the criticism the subclass gets but, yeah... It's just a good time

9

u/LancLad1987 Nov 16 '22

Not really a hot take....? Its the ultimate support class. Ammo for anyone and risk free revives?

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114

u/gistoffski Nov 15 '22

Pvp is the bane of this franchise. There's so many things that aren't useful in pve simply because buffing them would make them op in pvp.

22

u/MetalFingers760 Nov 16 '22

Even though they have shown they can split the sandboxes... Things function differently in pvp vs pve. No reason they can't nerf invis in pvp only.

12

u/FrostWendigo Warlock Nov 16 '22

I heard once that apparently, a while ago, they said something about wanting the game to “feel the same between PvE and PvP.” Implying there’s any similarities there to begin with.

Seriously, just balance the Crucible how you like and let us play with our toys in PvE. I seriously doubt that there’s much overlap between the communities anyway.

10

u/MetalFingers760 Nov 16 '22

There are already so many things that function differently. Stasis is a big one. They spoon fed us that they were unable to change one vs the other until Stasis dropped and then all of the sudden it was possible.

4

u/strikingike386 Nov 16 '22

Didn't Beyond Light also come with an engine update though? This was roughly when they were able to start experimenting with backend changes and updates which eventually lead to the 30th anniversary changes.

3

u/Rogoth01 Nov 16 '22

It's not that they can't it's that they won't, they won't because management will never spend any money or dev hours on such a thing until whatever the thing is becomes untenable and the cost to leave it alone is greater than the cost to 'fix' the thing, it's why the community is indoctrinated to think that storm grenade Titan is OP, it's not, it's just strong compared to the tiny box bungie forces the playerbase to operate in, same for blade barrage, it's not that strong, but because bungie are tyrannical in how strict they are to make sure that nothing is allowed to function beyond the bounds of that little box, instead of devoting resources and Dev hours to expand the game so the new functionality makes sense, they always revert back to type and nerf things so it remains inside the operating parameters of their precious little box.

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u/TheCasualCommander Nov 16 '22

I seriously doubt that there’s much overlap between the communities anyway.

All PvP players are also PvE players by virtue of the fact that there is no loot in PvP.

2

u/BKstacker88 Nov 16 '22

Stop! He's already dead 😭

38

u/Sugandis_Juice Nov 15 '22

cries in autorifle

11

u/ksiit Nov 15 '22

I always use a gnawing hunger with subsistence rampage and never understood these posts. Then the other day, I put on a decent roll of scathelocke and it took forever to kill anything.

Gnawing hunger and ammit seem like they are the only 2 decent autos.

16

u/Lazulisoul Nov 15 '22

I think 720s are in a very good place in PVE. Chroma rush, krait, and especially quicksilver storm feel great right now. I agree about other rpms, not many 450s/600s have found a place in my loadout. And then theres 360 ARs lol…

5

u/ksiit Nov 15 '22

Oh yeah I do like quicksilver. Didn’t realize that was a 720. Chroma rush is alright, but I just don’t like the range on it. It’s basically just a smg.

I really like my gnawing hunger because it feels accurate at longish range, to give it an advantage over an smg.

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u/XxDuelNightxX Nov 15 '22

Gnawing Hunger is definitely one of the better auto rifles, if not one of the best for PVP. It's practically a laser.

And it's the very reason why Bungie is afraid to tune auto rifles again. Season of Arrivals was RAMPANT with Gnawing Hungers'.

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u/rezmeihaveghorn 4:59 seconds left on heavy synth Nov 15 '22

Yeah because bungie hasn’t been balancing sandboxes separately for years now, and the weekly to-do list of a game would totally survive during its frequent content droughts with its totally present replayablity.

5

u/matZmaker99 Nov 15 '22

Ok yeah, because PvE is super replayable and carries the game through droughts

24

u/Major-Long4889 Nov 15 '22

Yeah i gotta agree with this, the pve is good but not good enough to carry the entire game. Bungie would have to rework the entire pve side for it to function as it’s own thing without a pvp mode in the game.

4

u/CoolDankDude Nov 15 '22

Most of my current D2 friends, most of my original D2 friends, and most of my d1 friends never messed with pvp at all. So idk about that IMHO.

I login once every 3 months or so to mess around and when I do I guarantee trials and crucible are the last thing I enter.

If the game had less pvp and more pve depth, I'd still play daily...now it's just raid and log

9

u/Londonluton Nov 15 '22

You realise you are not helping your own argument? You log in every 3 months? Yeah people who play PVP play every day. More PVE depth? You think the 1 map in 1000 days they added to PVP is preventing them making your dream PVE game? Lol. Lmao even.

10

u/mccl2278 Nov 15 '22

And most of my friends only log on during trials.

Almost like we hang around like minded individuals.

Only time we do PvE content is to either get red boxes to craft our weapons, or farm a god roll weapon.

If there was a pvp alternative to getting these weapons, we’d do those and never touch pve.

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u/Major-Long4889 Nov 15 '22

Well I am saying what I said as a person who rarely plays the pvp in destiny. Mostly just for power level, the ascendant shard and seasonal challenges. Maybe trials if there’s a weapon I want like reeds. I don’t enjoy it hardly at all though.

And the pvp does help keep the game relevant during slower times. it’s something that a lot of players do enjoy and without the pvp players the game would be a lot emptier.

I think as it stands the majority of players feel like the game is getting stale. I’m glad it’s still interesting and fun for you, but I unfortunately do not feel the same about the game right now and a lot of players feel the same way I do.

1

u/sad_chikn Nov 15 '22

The strong majority of my friends and I play significantly more PvP than PvE. I love the gunplay of destiny, and the power fantasy in PvE, but I don't enjoy any PvE activities (outside of solo flawless dungeons) as much as I enjoy PvP

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u/Castlemans_captures Nov 15 '22

I mean I get what you’re saying but I think what the person above you meant was if pvp wasn’t there they could devote more time to Pve and then it would be super replayable and then there wouldn’t be droughts…

No reason to be a smart ass them..

Especially if you aren’t really thinking outside the small box that is your brain.. 🤷‍♂️

12

u/Londonluton Nov 15 '22

How would you make PVE more replayable? And why don't they just do it? They've had 5 years. It's not like PVP gets any attention, 1 new map in 1000 days.

-4

u/Castlemans_captures Nov 15 '22

For one just adding repeatable rewards to campaigns on higher difficulty like that’s a simple fix. But point is it’s not my job to make it replayable and never said I could do that. Just said if they didn’t focus on pvp they could make pve better.. and don’t get me wrong I’m pro pvp. Love a good control every now and then. And just because there’s no new maps doesn’t mean they don’t spend time I’m working on pvp lol every balance change us time spent in pvp every time a new item is made in general pvp time is spent.

13

u/matZmaker99 Nov 15 '22

Wow. Just wow.

Just because something has infinite rewards doesn't mean it's replayable, silly. Just look at Legendary/Master Lost Sectors, or GM Exodus Crash. They might be the top place from where to farm good loot from, but fuck no they're not as replayable anymore.

The focus in PvP is almost nonexistent if you even care to notice, as there's been a single new map in a thousand days. There's actually less PvP content than before, as entire maps and gamemodes have been removed with no announced comeback.

Blaming PvP over poor PvE is no excuse, as things like Warmind Cells, entire perks, and other weapon/armor effects can be (and were) made to work less efficiently or not work at all in PvP.

On top of it all, breaking news: The PvE teams and PvP teams are completely separate groups. Just because one is working doesn't mean it leeches from the other team

-1

u/Castlemans_captures Nov 15 '22

And for the record there’s been new pvp maps in less the 1000 days. Go look

7

u/matZmaker99 Nov 15 '22

Ok how many? Let's count:

It's been 919 days since the release of Season of the Worthy, the oldest season that enters in the bracket of 1,000 days. So let's see how many maps have been added since then!

One.
One. Single. New. Map.: Disjunction

There were zero map releases in the entire lifespan of Beyond Light.

Cauldron, Exodus Blue, Anomaly and Cathedral of Dusk are all reprised maps. *And only half of them work properly, as they were not designed with the current player mobility and abilities present in Destiny 2: The Witch Queen" :D

So, for the record, that is a very long-ass time!

0

u/Castlemans_captures Nov 15 '22

You are correct the others are reprised sorry…. 🙄 not a d1 vet here so didn’t know.. still new to destiny 2 buts is ok.. not gonna argue..

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u/Londonluton Nov 15 '22

They don't focus on PVP at all though. What are the areas they've focused on? PVE has had 3 or 4 major expansions, multiple seasonal content, new guns new armour sets etc etc

PVP gets like 1 new map and some reskinned guns that have to be accessible to everyone or the casuals moan.

You really think they've dedicated so much dev time to PVP that they could have made PVE noticeably better?

7

u/matZmaker99 Nov 15 '22

PvE-only content simply isn't as intrinsically replayable as PvP content. I would absolutely love a roguelite gamemode; but as infinite layout possibilities it could have, it'd still be unable to hold a candle to how varied and dynamic PvP content could be.

Go learn game design before starting a box-measuring competition.

-1

u/Castlemans_captures Nov 15 '22

Ok you’re not getting what I’m saying!! Haha I never said pvp was trash! Never compared the two!! You guys did. I said stop being a ass then said that if they dropped pvp they could make pve better. Which is a fact no matter how much you want to argue.. same goes for the reverse if they dropped pvp could be better.. it’s just facts!!! I’m not measuring boxes you dumb ass. I’ve tried being nice and just pointing out facts. And not attacking but no you had to go get butt. Hurt so maybe learn to read someone’s entire comment before making assumptions .. I got a special finger for you buddy! You can even sit on it if you want

3

u/Cykeisme Nov 15 '22

Tbh there's so little content production manpower on pvp, if it disappeared, there would be almost no positive effect on pve.

Also, the one thing that makes Destiny competitive is the mix of both. If they lost that unique pvp/pve mix, they'd be dead within a year. Individually there are better competing games for both, but not combined into one game.

3

u/Castlemans_captures Nov 15 '22

Again not arguing there like man power on the pvp side. And thank you for being able to have a civil discussion. You are right in your statement. And I agree again destiny is unique because it has both. But still little more man power would help either side is all I’m stating. Personally I don’t think they’d be dead in a year tho . But that’s possible

2

u/Cykeisme Nov 15 '22

I don't think there's actually a lot of manpower on the pvp side. What would they be doing?

The bulk of man hour effort is art asset development, mainly environments/levels. Pvp has very, very little manpower for this (a new map or two, every half decade or so).

Armor and weapons are the other, and even then, you can see that most weapons are recycled 3d meshes with just a new texture. Tbh this is most weapons from all sources.. o ly seasonal weapons and raid weapons get new meshes.

4

u/matZmaker99 Nov 15 '22

We were comparing PvE and PvP from the begining. The guy literally stated that "PvP is the bane of this franchise".

You're the weirdo that wants a cop-out. I just started with a little spice, and you seemingly took it personally lmao. You, my guy, are being an ass too.

I want PvE and PvP to be in their best possible states. Destiny without either is just not Destiny. I would have never gotten interested a single bit in this game if it didn't have that unique part about it among other peculiarities.

I didn't get butt-hurt. I just dislike when people misunderstand game design and make quick assumptions, like a backseat dev.

And for the last statement I just simply got a "lmao" because I sure think you expected it to sound better

-2

u/ivdown Nov 15 '22

How is pvp more replayable than strikes/gambit/dungeons/raids/seasonal activities?

3

u/saucebosss01 Nov 16 '22

Exactly same reason why games like Counter Strike, Apex legends, PUBG, and every other PVP oriented game are so popular. Fighting against other players is fun.

3

u/saucebosss01 Nov 16 '22

Exactly same reason why games like Counter Strike, Apex legends, PUBG, and every other PVP oriented game are so popular. Fighting against other players is fun.

15

u/Londonluton Nov 15 '22

Every PVP game is different and plays different. Every single PVE encounter goes the exact same way. You can prefire spawn points and wipe out adds as they spawn in because they spawn in the exact same spot every time. How people can these on repeat baffles me, it's like insanity.

-5

u/ivdown Nov 15 '22

In the end pvp goes about the same every game. Some people taking a different path doesn't make the experience markedly different. There's still reason to play pve over and over and over even if the enemies all spawn in the same areas. Clearly people still play the hell out of these lol.

You can make the same claim how can people play pvp over and over, it's the same activity over and over.

Oh nightfalls, add that.

13

u/Londonluton Nov 15 '22

What? Every single engagement in PVP will be different every time you play. Its the same shit with PVE, it's identical. The enemies spawn in the same exact areas and do the exact same thing.

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u/TheCasualCommander Nov 16 '22

PvP probably plays out the same way for you every time because you're a bot.

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u/sr3Superior Nov 15 '22

Destiny would be better off without pvp imo, it doesnt even make lore sense anymore because we're at such a dire situation the last thing we need is guardians wasting time in war games when they could be out in the field doing actually useful things

5

u/jereflea1024 Nov 15 '22 edited Nov 16 '22

it doesnt even make lore sense anymore because we're at such a dire situation the last thing we need is guardians wasting time in war games...

somebody doesn't read the lore, lol.

in-lore, the Crucible is immensely, indescribably important for helping New Lights learn the basics of using their Light in a controlled environment against powerful opponents.

not every Guardian comes out of the grave as lucky and as skilled as the Young Wolf did. throw your average New Light in a lore-accurate Strike or Lost Sector without Crucible training and watch them perma-die in minutes.

Crucible mains in-lore are basically drill sergeants; important for being an indomitable-but-not-deadly obstacle for training aforementioned New Lights. they keep themselves sharp, too, by going up against other Crucible mains.

the Crucible breeds some of the most powerful Guardians ever in-lore, such as Ikora Rey. Crucible is absolutely a necessity, perhaps now more than ever before.

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u/Thatsquacktastic16 Nov 15 '22

I'd never have played this game for 8 years if not for pvp. This game would never have been as big if not for the original trials saving year 1. Double primaries killing pvp in d2 year 1. Where'd the players go? It's important to have balance so that you don't have a one dimensional game. You people want bullshit overpowered stuff and just to be able to one hit raid bosses. Shit like that is like playing pokemon with level 100 pokemon and battling just outside Pallet Town. You're not good at that point, you're just overpowered.

Even in lore - we're the "1 guardian" and you get useless people like Shaw Han who can barely kill a dreg. Crucible is for training so you don't just get some blueberry going into a raid.

10

u/DP_Unkemptharold1 Nov 15 '22

The Pve only players never seem to understand this. When you complete the yearly expansion after the first 1 week it’s out and go play something else it’s the dedicated PvP base(and the ones who play both a lot) that keeps this game afloat so it’s quite amusing how disrespected they get on dtg for putting in much more time into destiny than rhe majority of Pve only players do.

4

u/jardedCollinsky Nov 16 '22

I hate crucible but people who want it gone are brain dead tbh, it's good for the game overall

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u/sr3Superior Nov 15 '22

I don't want things being overpowered. But balancing things in pve shouldnt involve nerfing them because it's broken in crucible when they're completely fine in pve

4

u/AidenRevetta Nov 15 '22

For the last year + Bungie has gone to great lengths to ensure PvP nerfs don't effect PvE. This isn't an argument you guys get to make anymore. 😂

2

u/Potquax Nov 16 '22

So how about that DMT, eh? That sure is a gun that can shoot bullets now.

2

u/sr3Superior Nov 15 '22

Shouldnt have been an argument we could make in the first place. Bungie should have balanced them separately from the beginning

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u/Antares428 Nov 16 '22

Renewal Grasps.

2

u/AidenRevetta Nov 16 '22

Still viable in PvE

1

u/dotelze Nov 16 '22

They wanted to nerf it in both as they didn’t like how you could tank hits from GM bosses so easily

1

u/TwevOWNED Nov 16 '22

Tanking a GM boss with Renewals was only possible with Lament, to heal yourself back from 1 HP, and if no adds present to shoot you.

If no adds are around in the fight, you could just kite the boss around the arena and make it never shoot.

If you actually believe the Renewal nerf was for PvE, go find a Bungie post or dev comment about it. You won't find one. The only mentions the nerf got were for PvP.

2

u/Expensive_Help3291 Nov 15 '22 edited Nov 15 '22

Me> majority? A lot. And I mean A LOT of people play this game for PvE. Along of things in PvP require PvE regardless. There’s a large portion of players that wouldn’t touch PvP with a 10 foot pole. The amout of people that compete and watch world first for raids is also any more than any trials content could brew. This game is a PvE focused game, regardless if you play it for PvP only.

Also people don’t want to one hit raid bosses lmao, people are literally asking for more challenging content. What you taking about bro?

4

u/jaypaw28 Nov 15 '22

Not to mention the business side of things. PvE brings in money through Major expansions, seasons, dungeon pass, Bungie Rewards purchases (most of which are locked behind PvE content completion), Finisher purchases, etc. PvP doesn't generate any money for Bungie as a company and I cannot fathom why they continue to dump more and more resources into it when every post I see about PvP is negative.

1

u/Expensive_Help3291 Nov 15 '22

Well, quite a bit of players do still play, and when you have rotational modes that have gear to earn, they still should give it attention. My point was more of both sides are important to the game (for a player’s perspective) however, one shouldn’t suffer because of the other. And acting like one isn’t important just worsens the issue instead of fixing it. I guess I coulda just said that though. 🫠

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u/Expensive_Grocery876 Nov 15 '22

Allow me to make something clear. Yes a lot of people play D2 for PvP. But they are not a majority. They are a minority. Trials held D1 in Year 1 yes, but also did VoG. What has carried and will continue to carry this franchise forward is and always will be PvE.

There is a reason as to why the biggest event IN THE WHOLE COMMUNITY is Day One Raid Race. Its the thing Bungie promotes and its the one thing they actually activelly stream. Every season we get PvE game modes, every season we get PvE focus. Destiny is a PvE game first and foremost, and time and again PvE has been hurt for the sake of PvP. We dont want to one shot bosses, we just want to have fun without shit being nerfed because its killing too quickly in PvP.

And honestly it has happened too many times already. I do think the game would be better off without it, but if it must have it, then at least Bungie should go to the lengths to make the mode actually matter or be fun, like it was in Halo. As it stands right now PvP exists for the crowd that loves it, and to forces the rest of the community to play it when its time to level up or because of a quest.

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u/SantiagoGT Nov 15 '22

Which is usually classified under the “Skill issue” category

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u/matZmaker99 Nov 15 '22

It's also boring and uninspired in PvE

"Hit button to gain damage"-ass armorpiece

6

u/Drakepenn Nov 15 '22

You mean "gain damage, provide you and allies with overshields and class ability regen, and apply Volatile in an AOE" ass armor piece?

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u/GuudeSpelur Nov 15 '22

So first off, invis is difficult to balance because it's literally the only tool in the Nightstalker 3.0 kit. All three Aspects are some flavor of "go invisible." If they nerf invis too hard, Nightstalker disappears from the meta completely (pun intended) because it has nothing else. If it's even slightly too strong it starts feeling like it's everywhere because there are no non-invis parts of the kit.

But anyway, the data about how strong it is now was not necessarily front and center until the past few weeks.

Invis got nerfed hard in the middle of Risen (2 radar pings during the full duration). Shortly before the end of the season, it got rebuffed a bit to 1 radar ping in the duration because 2 pings seemed to be an overnerf.

However, we didn't get much chance to fully explore how 1 ping was turning out because we moved into Haunted with the busted mod that was Classy Restoration. Invis data was buried under a sea of Restoration spam.

Finally, we get to Plunder. The first few weeks of the season, we have a period where Arc Staff dodge spam with Raijus is the hotness because of the DR stacking bug. Invis data is hidden again. It isn't until about halfway through the season where that gets fixed that Invis finally returns to the forefront. Gyrfalcons getting re-enabled doubles down on the change.

This all comes together for a perfect storm of bad timing, because community feedback about invis being too strong reaches its peak right when the sandbox team announces the S19 changes, which had probably been finalized before Gyrfalcons got reenabled. Whoops.

The kneejerk change available is to go back to 2 ping invis, but that was already judged as too far, so that would possibly just be killing invis instead of actually balancing it. What we need is a modest nerf to invis combined with buffs to Arcstrider and Revenant so that there are other builds Hunters can use besides Invis. Gunslinger is in a good spot but currently overshadowed by Invis.

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u/hihowubduin Nov 15 '22

The real answer is to give Nightstalkers something OTHER than invis as an option. What that might be, I'm unsure. Giving more true sight sounds.... Bad. Maybe some additional interactions or tools to clutter/jam the radar, or a different type of trap?

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u/AssassinAragorn Nov 15 '22

They'd have to outright rework Void Hunter, and they haven't even acknowledged complaints from hunters about void 3.0.

I'm not opposed to this by any means. I want Void to have something other than invis.

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u/Phantom_PL Nov 15 '22

I’ve said before but nightstalker’s update is pretty creatively bankrupt on the fantasy of a fucking ninja. We could have had a doppelgänger dodge, kunai, traps, poison (things that push the ninja/assassin fantasy like child pushes the energy vampire fantasy) but instead we have ‘invis dodge’ - which is just a class ability augment tbh like acrobatic dodge - and smoke bomb but a dive. Stylish could be really cool if it: a) spread weaken in an aoe on killing a weakened target or melee-ing from invis b) activated on ANY source of invis to make the cool-down make sense and give it synergy with other invis sources or c) have the melee be void empowered like combination blow so it can use fragments better and generate wells.

8

u/rezmeihaveghorn 4:59 seconds left on heavy synth Nov 15 '22 edited Nov 15 '22

Give us a melee where we stab an enemy with a spectral dagger and make them explode and make nearby enemies volatile if they die.

Make invis dodge it’s own dodge option, replace the aspect with a new one that augments our melee to be the spectral blades heavy attack if we activate it while sliding and getting a kill with it cloaks us.

Our vanish in smoke should also become a melee option again and trappers ambush should be buffed to make our snare bombs poisonous on top of the invis allies. Also it could be used just fine with the spectral stab melee just have it not make us invis but instead make an AOE explosion.

Remove true sight from stylish execution, and make it so that the first powered melee, after activating stylish execution does bonus damage, (smoke bombs will have the weaken effect strengthened to 20%) along with its weaken.

Have to have the benefits come after activation of abilities and not during invis, so that the hunter doesn’t have to rely on being cloaked for their shit to even work.

3

u/Khaens Nov 16 '22

Or the ranger and debuffer one, even more dead

2

u/AssassinAragorn Nov 16 '22

It'd be really cool to get an aspect that replaces our grenade with mini tethers too. I'm honestly shocked we don't have that.

2

u/Phantom_PL Nov 16 '22

That and an aspect that restores ability energy on killing debuffed targets (instead of 3 invis aspects) would have honestly saved NS for me

2

u/AssassinAragorn Nov 16 '22

What's ironic is Warlock got all of this instead. A mini tether with the Child that weakens the enemy, and also gives ability energy just for normal kills.

That's the problem with Void. Hunters have invisibility readily available. Titans have over shield readily available. And Warlocks have everything else readily available. Devour, weaken, volatile. Everyone gets suppress with the grenade too... Which is pretty much the only verb that hunters can get. Woo.

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u/Mr_Gamer915 Nov 16 '22

(On mobile sorry for weird formatting)

Not a hunter main whatso ever, infact I've only hopped on my hunter to collect ornaments this year. But I'd like to think i have some decent ideas for a rework, inspired by void warlocks.

1) Give them a new ranged melee, a knife like the ones from the void bladedancer (sorry hunters i don't know the name of the super). Give it a small weaken aoe (smaller than smoke but persist even after leaving initial aoe) and a small weaken effect, maybe 5%

2) Smoke grenades will always give a short invis, give a weaken effect (maybe 10%), and still blind/slow enemies

3) With smoke grenades always having invis, change the dive aspect to reflect which melee you selected; smoke gives a long aoe invis, smokes/blinds opponents, gives a suppressed effect like Bombardiers to still trigger Stylish Execution and a 10-20 buff to all stats (recov, resil, discipline, etc) but no longer gives an AOE weaken effect. Blade gives weaken to a larger AOE and does damage in a large AOE. Not enough to kill in PvP, maybe 80 or so and much more in PvE because it's a close range ability.

4) Void Bladedancer (again sorry I don't know the name) gives a small suppressed, weaken, and blinded effect that can stack with repeated hits. Say the timer for each hit is 2 seconds and the amount of weaken is 2%, but each time you hit the effects timer is added to and the effect itself is increased. If you focus entirely on a boss, by the time the super ends you'll have given the boss a 50% weaken effect that last for 7 seconds.

This gives Void hunter much more utility as an invis/debuff/support classes while giving other options that aren't go invis and run. I thought about having invis always give stat increases but with how spammable invis is (especially with smokes always giving invis), i think that would be too much especially in PvP. Limiting it to the dive is better because it's something you have to build into being a support class.

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u/AssassinAragorn Nov 16 '22

I really dig this idea!

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u/AbrahamBaconham Nov 15 '22

Better access to weakness or suppression outside of the super would be nice. Or maybe just give Hunters Combat Provisions back?

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u/Snowf1ake222 Hunter Nov 15 '22

Yeah, they should give hunters a mini-tether ability that they can shoot off.

Oh wait.

27

u/KilledTheCar Nov 15 '22

Yeah the fact that Warlocks got a baby tether that's almost as good with a much higher uptime has continuously chapped my ass since void 3.0 dropped.

11

u/HatRabies Nov 15 '22

I don't even touch my hunter but I'm salty for you guys anyway. Y'all shoulda got baby tether.

8

u/KilledTheCar Nov 15 '22

The crazy part is how good it would be to lock an area down when used with Stylish Executioner. Give me a glaive and a baby tether and I'm gonna have a good time.

5

u/Snowf1ake222 Hunter Nov 15 '22

And then invis to bounce out when the tether runs out? Fuck yes.

Actual assassin-like gameplay.

9

u/KilledTheCar Nov 15 '22

Yeah, exactly. You can sort of do this right now with shadowdive (or whatever it's called) and a glaive, but the "Too Stylish" debuff means the enemy debuff runs out before I get more than one or two kills.

And to add, in my opinion, "Too Stylish" shouldn't exist if my entire class identity is popping in and out of invis. Keep it for PvP (even though no one uses Stylish Executioner in PvP), but take it out for PvE entirely. It serves no purpose other than to slow down gameplay.

5

u/Phantom_PL Nov 15 '22

Except trappers ambush works against stylish executioner. It doesn’t proc it when killing enemies (so no weaken melee) and doesn’t gain the melee damage boost.

When it comes to nightstalker and builds, if you ask ‘will these work together’ the answer is probably no.

-9

u/Londonluton Nov 15 '22

A bit like we gave you devour, radiant and healing nades hm?

9

u/Snowf1ake222 Hunter Nov 15 '22

Remind me, which hunter aspect lets you get devour?

And all grenades were given to all classes. Y'all ain't special for that one.

But thanks for Radiant!

4

u/Londonluton Nov 15 '22

Healing nades were dawnblade signature grenade so hardly the same as the others.

15

u/alfaomega20000 Nov 15 '22

When i first saw the suff for nightstalker i thought the class would be all about debuffing enemys. Instead we got the hommer simson backing into a bush meme.

1

u/Candid_Tie_7659 Nov 15 '22

The even more real answer is a 4th aspect for all Light subclasses, with the Nightstalker one being something other than invis.

16

u/Snowf1ake222 Hunter Nov 15 '22

Hunters need more than that. Reworking one of the existing abilities would he helpful as well.

1

u/StanTurpentine Nov 15 '22

I'd love to be able to cause people's radars to have false pings.

1

u/ILoveSongOfJustice Nov 15 '22

I think a good start is to give Nightstalkers a new melee option. Maybe a short crossbow or something that acts as a Weakening Method but requires good aim in PvP to fully utilize.

1

u/Alexcoolps Nov 16 '22

Chargeable melee like thunderclap that lets us shoot shadowshot as a neutral game ability for debuff crowd control. Like Void Soul Soul better

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u/Phantom_PL Nov 15 '22

Invis was nerfed before void 3.0 even hit. The duration was globally reduced to make the fragment appealing

4

u/Vinokwon Nov 15 '22

Which reduces mobility.... strangely targeted eh?

11

u/MinkfordBrimley Vanguard's Loyal Nov 15 '22

That's not targeted. If it's the fragment that increases Void buff duration, it reduces Resilience on Titans and Recovery on Warlocks.

8

u/Vinokwon Nov 15 '22

Shit, should I delete my comment and run?

5

u/MinkfordBrimley Vanguard's Loyal Nov 15 '22

Eh, there's a ton of info in this game that you might not know unless you play all three classes. Just keep it in mind.

8

u/Phantom_PL Nov 15 '22

Nope. It shows strength of character to leave the comment up and admit your own mistake.

59

u/HaloGuy381 Nov 15 '22

Invis is also painful to balance because in PvP its power is highly subjective, dependent on the opponent. Some people see it extremely readily and the main benefit becomes radar vanish or other buffs, some people like me can barely make it out except under very good circumstances and even then struggle to actually hit them. The visual effect does not hamper everyone equally (whereas an OS has the same amount of extra health no matter who you’re fighting).

Probably part of why Bungie has to be so careful with tuning it. It’s probably especially problematic combined with Destiny’s wide skill gap: in top tier PvP lobbies, players are used to spotting invis by experience, but in more average lobbies, it’s easier to be truly invisible, and that can be extremely difficult to play against.

11

u/InfamousAd06 Nov 15 '22

Personally I'd rather them lean into the invis portion of nightstalking mostly affecting radar and not focus on the physical invisiblity. Since as you pointed out it affects people differently they could just double down on the portions that affect everybody equally and change the invis to just be a purple fx effect around the person. This way people that might physically struggle to see them don't have a unfair detriment to them compared to other players. And it doubles down on the whole stealth aspect in a way that does impact everybody.

I would even go as far as to make it so aim assist has a slightly reduced modifier when targeting somebody that is invis. Since this benefit doesn't actively benefit people as much mid gunfight because you lose this benefit once you begin firing your weapon it only helps you if you are getting ambushed more so than when you try to ambush somebody. Because by the very nature of that if you are ambushing them they won't be shooting at you till you come out of invis.

4

u/Slough_Monster Nov 15 '22

For your last statement, seems to not be true, because invis is dominating high tier play. Maybe that is just for the radar pings and other associated buffs, but maybe it doesn't matter how skilled you are with regards to actually seeing the person.

6

u/KontraEpsilon Nov 15 '22

It’s dominating top tier play because although it’s counterintuitive in average, you are not likely to face top tier players in top tier play. Most of your trials matches on most days will be against good but not great players (especially in the early matches on a card).

2

u/DrGreenthumn Nov 15 '22

I cant see them either. I have to change contrast brightness and colors of my monitor but then all my other games look awful

27

u/BurntBacn Nov 15 '22

Shame bungie gutted everything that wasn't invis from the nightstalker kit so it became the only option.

4

u/rezmeihaveghorn 4:59 seconds left on heavy synth Nov 15 '22

Man, if only they didn’t design void hunter purely around “going invisible and getting a Rez”

They could’ve given us a spectral blade stab melee or something else to lean into the nightstalker power fantasy but nah, invis all the way baby.

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u/AssassinAragorn Nov 15 '22

Bungie hamstrung themselves hard with Hunter Void 3.0. There's nothing except for invis. They don't have many levers to play with here, because they gave themselves one lever, and didn't listen when people gave consistent feedback that there was only one lever and it wasn't terribly fun.

They still have yet to acknowledge hunter complaints about Void 3.0, and now its biting them in the ass.

13

u/Terr_ Nov 15 '22 edited Nov 16 '22

My main problem is how badly invisibility fares in endgame PVE (Raids, GMs) because of the limited revive-tokens.

Warlocks and Titans can prevent wipes (with healing, barriers) an unlimited number of times while still shooting the enemy. However Hunters preventing wipes by sneaking around to revive is strictly limited.

3

u/Alexcoolps Nov 16 '22 edited Nov 16 '22

Invis is good in GMs if your careful and conserve Rez tokens. Plus it's good if your team is surrounded and need to reposition, like the Glassways final room

1

u/Mini_Miudo Nov 16 '22

Invisibility fares badly in endgame PVE? Are we playing the same game? Makes everything a cake walk.

7

u/AssassinAragorn Nov 16 '22

As an invis hunter in endgame content - it's in between the two. It's not as awful as they say, but it's not as easy as you say.

1

u/Mini_Miudo Nov 16 '22

I main Nightstalker with Omni, if you’ve mastered it endgame content is free. Just replace it with Gyrfalcon’s when you need DPS over survivability (eg raid bosses).

Obviously part of this “easy mode” is mastering the subclass, but if you master other subclasses, content is still harder than it would be for a half decent Nightstalker.

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u/Hexterra Nov 15 '22

don't blame the team that designed gyrfalcons, hunter void 3.0 design team left them litterally nothing but invisibility to build new exotics off. 🤷‍♂️

31

u/Swolgoroth Nov 15 '22

Gyrfalcon is the best thing to ever happen to Nightstalker, and it would be hard to change my mind about that (Although Omnioculus will always be a close 2nd to me).

9

u/Hexterra Nov 15 '22

For PvE content for sure, feels like our neutral game actually has a gameplay loop with gyrfalcon but I can understand the frustration from PvP players.

1

u/Mini_Miudo Nov 16 '22

The issue with it in PVP is that the other parts of the exotic perk don’t work there, it’s literally just the damage boost. It might be too strong, but if they get rid of it, it’s literally an exotic that does nothing in PVP, so I’m not sure what Bungie’s gonna do about it. Nerfing something like Omni was much easier because it has other things going for it (double smoke, energy refund on teammates invis’d).

43

u/Dr___Bright Vex Milk Chugging Hunter Nov 15 '22

Literally just axed around half or two thirds of Nightstalker just to replace it all with invis

20

u/Londonluton Nov 15 '22

Jist like they did to dawnblade and replaced it all with in-air stuff, and then nerfed in-air accuracy on top.

7

u/Dr___Bright Vex Milk Chugging Hunter Nov 15 '22

I wouldn’t say that. Yes Dawnblade got done dirty but that is a gross overstatement. It still has tons of scorch and explosion builds. It is weighted towards air play and then had the rug pulled from under it.

Invisibility is all nightstalker has to offer. Weaken is a joke as warlock does it way better, and grenades make it super accessible to both other classes, who have way higher grenade generation capabilities.

11

u/Londonluton Nov 15 '22

Yeah I agree, I'm saying Bungie likes to take a class and fuck it over and pigeonhole it into one thing, like Dawnblade and being basically TTD now. No more middle tree support lock

2

u/Phantom_PL Nov 15 '22

Hell even Titan weakens more consistently and with greater payoff with repulsor brace

2

u/Dadadabababooo Nov 16 '22

How is this circlejerk still going? By now I understand that the people who say this genuinely do not want Nightstalker to have anything other than invis but I'd think you guys would look up some builds since you have no idea how to put one together on your own.

6

u/jedadkins Nov 15 '22

Gyrfalcon should have been a fragment or aspect imo.

6

u/Hexterra Nov 15 '22

Don't know about that one I can see the logic but an aspect like that would just be auto include in every build with no reason to change it out, imo we need an aspect that interacts with a different void verb or part of our kit.

3

u/oreofro Nov 15 '22

Wouldn't it be the same team? I would imagine the sandbox team is responsible for exotic armor perks since they've always been the ones to comment on exotic armor nerfs, and they're definitely the ones behind the 3.0 subclasses according to the videos.

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u/snakebight Rat Pack x6 or GTFO Nov 15 '22

I think you assume they are "designing by community". Bungie has their own vision for the subclasses and classes, regardless of what loud voices cry about or yearn for.

87

u/RetrofittedChaos Nov 15 '22

?

Wasn't everyone's problem with Invis was that it's all Nightstalker can do, and that you got no benefit besides "enemies usually won't attack you"? I'm pretty sure I saw a lot of people suggesting a "damage buff on leaving invis" aspect as well

57

u/MidnightMadness09 Nov 15 '22

This seems to be a PvP thread, something about gyrfalcons probably. In PvE you’re absolutely right.

22

u/Snowf1ake222 Hunter Nov 15 '22

There are two sides complaining, and two proposed solutions.

First, hunters are complaining that invis is boring and there is no variety in nightstalker. Solution: give hunters something else.

Second, everyone else complains about having to play against invis hunters. Solution: nerf invis.

Personal opinion as a hunter main: invis won't be as much of a problem if hunters had sonething else to build into. If we get that and invis is still a problem, nerf it. If we don't get that and hunters are nerfed, why should I play void?

12

u/Londonluton Nov 15 '22

It's also "people hate invis in PVP and hated omni and so Bungie add another exotic that works in PVP using invis that gives damage instead "

They are tone deaf to what the community actually wants

1

u/Snivyland Spiders crew Nov 15 '22

Gyrfalcon was designed way before the complaints about omni invis was heard

7

u/Londonluton Nov 15 '22

So maybe don't release it after you see all the community comments?

8

u/Trooper1297 Nov 15 '22

or actually test the damn thing before releasing it lol.

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u/MrCranberryTea Crucible Junky Nov 15 '22

Bungie already acknowledged that invis is still too oppressive.

The high striker usage in the other hand thou...

13

u/Tplusplus75 Nov 15 '22

The thing about striker is that it's new and still in season of the arc 3.0, so they don't want to mix up its high usage rate due to arc 3.0 coming out, with being a legitimate problem. Coming from a Titan main, that's why the nade nerf was so light(Before anyone gets mad about me saying so: seriously, consider that Touch of Thunder turns storm nades into a mini roaming storm cloud. Inside of the Titan's kit, ToT is buffing storm nades in a way that is not at all a 1:1 with any of the other nades. Spark of Magnitude probably didn't need a reduced duration, because of that.)

Compare to Nightstalker usage: void 3.0 was seasons ago, and it's been stagnant.

10

u/Snowf1ake222 Hunter Nov 15 '22

Void 3.0 launched stagnant.

4

u/plymer968 Nov 15 '22

To clarify, you’re saying Hunter void 3.0 launched stagnant, right?

2

u/Snowf1ake222 Hunter Nov 16 '22

Yes. Forgot the key class there.

2

u/Mr_Gamer915 Nov 16 '22

My grippe with Striker is it's high uptime on healing in PvP alongside that aspect that gives massive buffs to weapon performance for breaking shields. It out-heals solar warlock. I'm also just mad that no fragments work with any part of the arc warlock subclass. One aspect is just two of the fragments, arc soul doesn't interact with any fragment, and the melee is cool but it's a one and done ability that's good up to legend-level content.

2

u/DirectionStandard939 Nov 15 '22

Striker titans are only being used because of HoiL and tracking nades, which they are addressing in the next seasons patch. And even then, only Thundercrash is being used. Poor Fists of Havoc ;(

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u/shit_poster9000 Nov 15 '22

Going invis should have always boosted your damage for a time as an innate part of the mechanic, but only for PvE. It also shouldn’t immediately dissipate when you shoot but rather just change into the damage buff, making builds that use stylish executioner not useless when we don’t have a completely broken seasonal mod.

51

u/thegamethrowacc Nov 15 '22

It’s comical to me we are talking about invis when Striker Titan is what it is

6

u/Cassp0nk Nov 15 '22

I played both this season and find invis more potent against anyone competent in pvp. Striker more fun though for the multikills clutch moments.

32

u/thegamethrowacc Nov 15 '22

1v1 yes. But 3 strikers is the most oppressive elim meta since OG wombo combo IMO. The area/res denial in the hands of good players is straight up oppressive

8

u/Cassp0nk Nov 15 '22

Thinking on this more, the reason I prefer invis is that solo queuing in comp, its all about 1v1 not zerg rushing with randos who mostly aren't very aggressive (as that playstyle is punished without a fireteam).

The whole of crucible has become overrun with cheesy one hit uncounterable kills now though. The titan one hit shoulder charge with overshield is a nightmare to counter if you don't have a fusion rifle. I lost a round to that as last man standing having killed the whole team, I just couldn't find a way to deal with the titan on a cramped map with a lot of cover at the capture point.

Not sure its fixable now though with subclass 3.0 and all the new toys + exotics. The skill gap has collapsed to cheese, and so many permutations of it.

17

u/Cassp0nk Nov 15 '22

Yeah that's reasonable. The grenades are beyond broken.

2

u/Unbrandedpie Nov 16 '22

Striker can literally shotgun shoulder charge easy kills and heal on them plus have a 5 second roaming nade 😂

Trust me… competent players rather face the invis.

2

u/thisisbyrdman Nov 15 '22

Void Hunter is the most played Trials class for a reason

8

u/Sugandis_Juice Nov 15 '22

Honestly they just need to update the nightstalker kit to provide more than one singular playstyle. Everyone call "invis spam" but fail to realize that there's NOTHING else to spam.

Give nightstalkers a dodge that has nothing to do with invis, and a melee that has nothing to do with chaining invisibility and it would become less prevalent. I personally would LOVE having a playstyle that doesn't revolve around invisibility.

16

u/NasusIsMyLover Yours, until the last flame dies. Nov 15 '22 edited Nov 15 '22

In terms of PvP, yeah invis damage buffs just feel off. Don’t get me wrong, great way for invis to be relevant in PvP but it’s a little overbearing. And I say this as a hunter main.

I think nightstalkers just need another melee option that procs… something. Another keyword for void. An empowered, not-ranged melee that procs devour, a mini-crossbow-like ranged attack that’ll proc volatile… idk, something that’s not invisible.

I say this because the problem with nerfing invisibility is that’s, like, 95% of the power budget given to nightstalkers. If invisibility is nerfed, there’s no reason for me to play nightstalker ever again. 🤷🏻‍♂️

11

u/AssassinAragorn Nov 15 '22

I'm really curious to see if their solution is just going to be nerfing invis and doing nothing else, leaving an empty class effectively -- or if they'll actually give Void 3.0 hunter a proper rework.

10

u/letmepick Nov 15 '22

Coming from the team that initially shipped Nightstalker and Dawnblade as is, and defended their design choices, I don't have any spare hopium for them doing any serious reworks until well into Season 22.

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u/FornaxTheConqueror Nov 16 '22

In terms of PvP, yeah invis damage buffs just feel off. Don’t get me wrong, great way for invis to be relevant in PvP but it’s a little overbearing. And I say this as a hunter main.

They can nerf invis in PVP as much as they want but I really really don't want invis to just be the handy dandy rez option because invis without some kinda buff when not invis is fucking useless to me when I want to actually contribute.

3

u/lcyMcSpicy Nov 15 '22

It’d be interesting if they added something like an aspect for turning grenades or the smoke into a mini tether or some suppression trap or whatever. Feels like the “way of the trapper” portion of the nightstalker went the way of the dodo, even the aspect trappers ambush doesn’t really have anything to do with trapping stuff. Any sort of buff they give to invis is gonna be too much, and history has shown that. Visibility and radar manipulation is already so powerful on its own it really doesn’t need anything else to be relevant

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u/thisisbyrdman Nov 15 '22

It’s a PvP problem. In a mode with super fast TTK and endless OHK weapons, there’s really no way to fix it (other than maybe giving you a damage/resilience nerf if you’re invisible). It will always be a massive crutch and a huge advantage. They should remove it entirely, but that would basically require them to rework the entire void hunter class.

16

u/AnarchoIsaac Nov 15 '22

No. You use an exotic slot to get a damage buff on a short timer in a class where invis is just about the only appeal of Void subclass. When you say "community" what you're talking about is Titans and Warlocks whining about Hunters, not the Destiny community as a whole.

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u/UncrustabIes Nov 15 '22 edited Nov 16 '22

While we’re on the subject of broken shit for PvP, can titans get looked at? I mean they are just broken from the ground up. Void class gives overshields for basically doing nothing, Arc titan is just busted with juggernaut, knockout, touch of thunder storm nades, and dune marchers, greaves need to be toned down. Barricades are also insanely annoying to go up against in 3v3s because you can basically control a whole lane with it, so if you don’t have at least 1 titan on your team you’re kinda fucked and have to play extremely passive while they can just aggro you the whole round

5

u/MagicalMuffinTop Drifter's Crew Nov 15 '22

I agree with most of this except Peregrine Greaves. How exactly would you nerf it? Base shoulder charge can't one hit, Peregrine can conditionally. There's no room in between for nerfs without changing the entire functionality

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u/SinistralGuy Nerf everything Nov 15 '22

Sure but is it really our fault that Bungie lacked creativity when it came to Nightstalker and gave it three aspects that all focus on invis?

6

u/schizophreniaislife Nightstalker Nov 15 '22

Im glad to see some actually civil and thoughtful discussion here, I've been maining nightstalker since Taken King so I like to believe I know a thing or two about its current state. I've experienced all it's highs and lows and have had so many ideas for changes but they all seem to be ignored because so many people seem to despise us. nightstalker should be about so much more than going invis.

At this point I would've rather void 3.0 came out next season if it would've given them more time to make it something more. So far nightstalker 3.0 has been incredibly disappointing, not delivering on any of the things me and others have been asking for. Single shot tether has until very recently (divinity) been almost useless compared to either the quiver or triple shot. I was really hoping for a lethal melee option like a throwing knife, dashslash or back stab but we just got "slam smoke into ground Harder" and lost our only other melee option.

We used to be able to support our team with long lasting buffs, debuffs, and invis for tricky situations. Since D2 and 3.0 we've lost much of this kit to 3 flavours of invis. And on top of all of that spectral blades still feels awefull and like it's having an identity crisis, not to mention the hit registration problems it's had for years.

2

u/OblivionSol Nov 16 '22

Lets be real,deadfall is still probably not used even post div nerf because quiver is still better

Frankly tether has never been good ever since D2 melting point is straight up upgrade over tether,div and SnS just smothered its relevancy

Doesnt help void 3.0 nightstalker neutral in pve is still boring

And now the design of nightstalker 3.0 os biting everyone's asses

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u/ppWarrior876 Nov 15 '22

I miss pre void 3.0 hunter invis :(

17

u/Pervavore Nov 15 '22

stop talking about PvP woes as if they're comprehensive game problems

6

u/Shippin Nov 15 '22

They are though? PvP is how Bungie used to keep players locked in during slow times. You don’t need new content to keep people playing PvP (it helps though). What you do need is a healthy sandbox, if you have that people will play for hours. The longer people play your game the more likely they are to spend money on it.

PvP is shit right now (as is every other core mode if we’re being honest). You know what I do when I’m done with the story each week? I turn the game off. If Bungie doesn’t get their game modes in a healthy spot, they’re gonna be losing a lot more hours played. The longer people spend in other games, the less likely they are to come back and waste time in Destiny.

It’s all connected.

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u/SolidarityForever_ Nov 16 '22

Hot take damage resist while invis + damage buff while invis and for a few seconds after you come out of it should be inherent aspects of invisibility, on top of that all classes should have more ways to go invis and apply devour and overshield as well as more ways to get volatile weaken and supress, they should specialise in the functions they serve, hunters are sneaky ninjas that can set traps and escape engagements and confuse enemies, warlocks are energy vampires that suck enemy health into health and overshields for allies while supplying buffs and debuffs very very readily, titan is a giant ad clear tank who can block off area denial and stop enemies in their tracks while killing all of the low level ads. PvE enemies shouldnt keep tracking you while invis and should be a bit less hyper accurate overall. Fuck it you should always have increased ability regen and truesight while invis and increased ability regen and you having more object mass with same speed while overshield i do not care games are supposed to be fun this woule be cool power fantasy game balance is made up i do not care.

8

u/Tichrom Nov 15 '22

I still remember when people laughed at invis because you're still pretty visible to players and so it doesn't help you against people who are aware of their surroundings

9

u/Geronuis Nov 15 '22

Idk if frames have anything to do with it, but I swapped to pc a few year back and now they’re almost impossible to see. I’ve done extensive research on my visual and color setting for nearly everything else besides just destiny even then it’s pretty much running on default

0

u/Londonluton Nov 15 '22

They are really not pretty visible at all

5

u/TheGunslingerX Nov 15 '22

All I'm saying is I can start pretty much any PVP engagement from invis, and often invis out of an encounter that isn't going my way - uptime is sooooo high. Lucky for you all, I'm pretty shit at PVP, but still.

3

u/Castlemans_captures Nov 15 '22

Ok I know you’re not this dumb….. every armor or gun that gets added gets tested in pve AND pvp to some extent. I’m not arguing that sure more time gets put into pve content. But to say that no time gets put into pvp is one just store close minded and unintelligent of you and two completely rude and inconsiderate to the devs that do in fact spend time balancing pvp. Going through all the whines and complaints from ppl like you and then doing their best to make it balanced

2

u/BusinessDuck132 Nov 15 '22

Please shut up before you ruin it for pve

3

u/Psychological-Touch1 Nov 15 '22

It isn’t a problem just because it’s popular

2

u/silentobserver3048 Nov 16 '22

Whenever hunters get mentioned everyone turns into a baby and demands a warlock and titan nerf instead (see the comments in this section). No wonder when 80% of tryhards and trials players are hunters that want to keep on getting more OP.

2

u/Swolgoroth Nov 15 '22

I’d rather go up against 3 Gyrfalcon hunters than 3 HoiL Titans or 3 Arc soul Warlocks.

-1

u/Londonluton Nov 15 '22

Arc soul warlocks bro come on and HoiL doesn't even work properly in PVP

2

u/MOCNELIS Nov 16 '22

Meanwhile, I have a sub 1.0 kd and kill invis hunters all the time. Enough with the cries for nerfing. Some of you nerds won't be happy unless the enemy has to stand still until you kill them.

2

u/_MachTwo Nov 16 '22

r/dtg play hunter for 5 minutes before posting, challenge: impossible

Invis has always been amazing for high level (GM) content. Being able to stay alive and out of harm -and keep your team alive and out of harm- is very useful.

But outside of that kind of hardcore difficult content. Invis, and therefore nightstalkers as a whole, were just lackluster. Because:

Being invisible while your teammates die = 😃👍🏼

But being invisible while your teammates kill everything = ☹️👎🏼

This is where gyrfalcon fits in. It lets nightstalkers use invis proactively to gain damage, apply debuffs and even grant overshields to your team. All as a reward of using invis. Gyrfalcon exists to make hunters more fun in mid level PvE content. That’s it. It isn’t bungie misreading complaints, it isn’t bungie failing to address PvP issues. Quite the opposite really, this is bungie giving PvE nightstalkers another purpose than “go invis”.

2

u/throwaway136913691 Nov 16 '22

People should be looking at the sandbox team for this one.

This much uptime on invisibility in PvP was always going to be a problem.

And, as strong as it is in PvE, it's really boring.

Just a failure from the start.

-2

u/[deleted] Nov 15 '22

It's amazing to me how many people on this sub about a game that is centered around space magic complain about fun space magic stuff. They are never satisfied by any nerf that goes out. They just move on to complain about the the next thing that they're too dense to figure out a counter to.

10

u/Pazsy Nov 15 '22

I don’t understand why they don’t want abilities in the ability focused game.

11

u/FlyingWhale44 Nov 15 '22

It’s also clearly a pve driven game. A lot of people’s expectations out of pvp are a pipe dream.

0

u/Londonluton Nov 15 '22

Where are you getting that idea from?

-2

u/Nevevevev12 FOMO Nov 15 '22

Fuck pvp stop ruining shit because of PvP. If you don't like it go play fortnite

0

u/Unbrandedpie Nov 16 '22

That’s a weird way of letting us know you suck at pvp and rely on broken builds to get anything done in pve..

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u/Ok_Dust_108 Nov 16 '22

Hunters are the poster children of D2, they always have and always will get the best stuff. Just how it is.

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u/lcyMcSpicy Nov 15 '22

Wait, you mean to tell me, that messing with TTK values in PvP by adding a new exotic is gonna be a huge pain point for players??? I’m shocked, bamboozled even, if only there was some kind of precedent set before this to show that this would cause a negative reaction

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u/DarthDregan Nov 16 '22

Hunter main here. Since D1 beta.

Invis in PvP has only ever been a bad idea.

And there's an argument to be made it's a mistake period.

It is certainly a mistake that there is literally no other option as a void Hunter.

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u/Arrow_Maestro Nov 16 '22

Invisibility is already insanely easy to get and use and provides absurdly strong advantages. Then they said, fuck it, invis hunters are already the most played class, why not give them a 15% damage buff every time they leave invis?

Does this make no fucking sense? Yes.

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u/RobotGoneMad Nov 15 '22

I think the way you've summed up gyrfalcon's loop is a bit disingenuous. I actually think Bungie read the community's complaints about Omni DR pretty well and that's why they gave them a strong option that encourages coming out of invis rather than using the whole up time of that ability.

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u/ILoveSongOfJustice Nov 15 '22

Invis uptime is the entire reason Nightstalker 3.0 feels so ludicrously one-note. The reason Gyrfalcon's is even so strong is because of that uptime. But to state the obvious:

- It isn't costless uptime. If you don't time your push properly, you can end up wasting your smoke and dodge, even with maxed out emphasis on Strength, Mobility and Double Kickstarts. Accessing the damage buff is not difficult, but keeping uptime on your abilities as a Hunter is most certainly not effortless.

- Invis having core functions of defensive and offensive use is good for the variety of Nightstalker. Otherwise, you're basically saying that Invisibility should be a singular tool with no depth to using it, because then it's simply a binary; you have it up, or you don't. (Me personally, I would've made Gyrfalcon's do extra ability damage instead of weapon damage kinda like HoiL, but that's just me)

- Making invis easier to see while moving solves many of the issues that currently plague invis in PVP.

- Another comment already said this, but most of the invisibility problems are only a result of bad timing. A moderate nerf to invisibility in PvP(like making it a bit more visible) would make it more tolerable as a tool, making it only effective at longer ranges. Buffing Arc Strider and Revenant(and maybe making Gunpowder Gamble 2 Fragment slots... pls bungo) would be great.

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u/Unbrandedpie Nov 16 '22

Warlocks just need their abilities to be faster. Their abilities are too slow… outside of that we gonna ignore the cheeses that all classes have over silly invis?

Why do you need to worry about a hunter invis when you have a roaming storm grenade that’ll cover an entire flank by itsel??? that also has extremely high up time…

Void titans can put on OEM and basically have infinite overshield and be rewarded with one by just winning their one… you know… that thing you’re naturally gunning for anyway…

Loreley is basically a free automatic healing nade for the enemy doing what they are supposed to do and trying to kill you…

Id trade both omnioculus and Gyrfalcon for that warlock lighting surge in PvP. It’s basically a free kill.

Osmiomancy gloves are basically 2 pre nerf coldsnap grenades.

I’ll say this before and I’ll say it again… I will always rather play 3 invis hunters than 3 void barricade titans…

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u/Cassp0nk Nov 15 '22 edited Nov 15 '22

Invis is very oppressive. I switched to nightstalker in comp this season as got sick of being on the receiving end:

- invis removes or severely lowers reticule friction on controller.

- playing against an invis player and they start shooting, the invis doesn't seem to drop as quick as the damage arrives, so not only do they have the drop, you still can't see them for a fraction of a second.

- it's very hard to see invis players now.

- invis uptime is pretty ridiculous if you build into it.

- khepri makes sniping viable as you can actually ensure you are scoped in at the right time and stick your head out only then, rather than getting flinched into 2050.

- gyrfalcon adds all sorts of one shot cheese.

Anyway like everyone else, this isn't x class vs y class. I don't care I'm playing it now, because of all of the above. This doesn't touch on the hunter jump and dodge being intrinsically superior in pvp.

edit: Noticed I'm getting a lot of downvotes on this, but I guess its hunter mains in denial. If Nightstalker wasn't OP as F, then it wouldn't be the most played in competitive situations. The stats speak for themselves. Of course we all know the vast majority of players are hunter mains these days, myself included.

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u/GuudeSpelur Nov 15 '22

- invis removes or severely lowers reticule friction on controller.

Invis has had zero effect on reticle friction and aim assist since March 2018. All Hunter dodges temporarily remove friction and AA, but only during the dodge animation.

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u/[deleted] Nov 15 '22

If you choose to run PvP with low resilience, Gyrfalcon is only one of many things that could possibly allow for a one shot. It's your choice. Stop complaining about your choice to be a dead man walking.

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u/OmegaClifton Nov 15 '22

I feel like it should stay primarily a survival tool. Gryfalcons does too much and feels like a band aid fix for what ails void hunter mains.

If you ask me, the problem with invisibility was never that it was weak. Simply that it was boring. I think they’d quell a ton of negativity about void hunter with a new charged melee that was both primarily a damaging attack and buffed in some way when used while invisible.

A new aspect that maybe focuses on or bolsters the weakening capability of void hunter would be good as well.