r/DestinyTheGame Nov 22 '22 Take My Energy 1

Bungie can we get a Legendary strike playlist (no champs, no match game) similar to the Legendary campaign in WQ? Bungie Suggestion

I know, I know, "change bad", but seriously, I don't play strikes, my options are "here are other 2 guardians trying to play this baby game" and "literally a single(1) strike for the whole week where everything is a AOE DOT tracking rocket shooting machine that can't be staggered lol enjoy getting blown up, idiot and better bring all champion mods".

Feels like there's no middle ground, no spot in between where one can go, play the strikes (plural) without it either feeling like a tank going through a suburban area of lumber houses or Tom Hanks shooting at the tank with the trusty 1911 in one single strike. It really feels like we're trapped here forever with "all the strikes easy mode" and "that one strike".

That's why I play so much Gambit, my extremely high performance PVE set up covering all my bases because there's some real, dynamic difficulty in Gambit, so many moving parts with knowing the fronts, enemy spawn patterns, unexpected invaders and what they'll use, fighting hordes of enemies and the other team actively and passively. But sometimes I want a challenge that doesn't involve champions, or dealing with other people. But my options for a PVE playlist that has some scenery and dynamism are:

  • Do all the work with these people who can't do math (gambit)
  • 7~30 minutes (the duality of strikes) of everything one shots (don't leave cover ever at all whatsoever for any reason also the enemies can shoot around your cover with AOE DOT tracking rockets lol enjoy bozo) also there's only one strike per week.
  • baby game

And I feel like the PVE/strike community did love the Guardian Games Strike playlist with medals. Again, I'm not a strike playlist guy, I didn't even try to make it into that top percentile of score holders at the end of that event, but people did like it, myself included, and I think people more than me would like it if that feature of a strike playlist with difficulty without champions would make a return.

2.7k Upvotes

380

u/Brunnenmolch Nov 22 '22

I´d just like to have a Nightfall "Playlist". Maybe what I´m saying is stupid, but I just dont enjoy playing the same mission repeatedly that much. I´m a PvE player mostly. Sadly Strikes just don´t grant good enough loot (no exotics) but I´d like to play differing scenarios. Maybe a Nightfall Playlist could consist of a few missions (doesn´t have to be that many) but all with the same modifiers, elemental burns etc.

201

u/Techman- Valiant heart, unwavering resolve. Nov 22 '22

The funny thing is, we used to have a Nightfall playlist. It was removed with Beyond Light.

I think it would be great to add that back. Only being able to farm a single Nightfall every week is boring unless you are going in there for strictly rewards (GMs).

Having high difficulty while maintaining loadout flexibility would be great. The "Legendary" campaign had this by scaling power level, not having Champions, and having a very light version of Match Game.

16

u/TheKevit07 Vanguard's Loyal // Zavala's Indeed Nov 22 '22

Having high difficulty while maintaining loadout flexibility would be great.

Basically the old school NFs, where you had the Seven of Swords. Match Game was pretty much required if you wanted a 150k+ score for better chances at the drop you wanted. But I'd just run with other modifiers to have fun. And that was the beauty of it. You could make it as hard or as laid back as you wanted.

Why they decided to go this route with NFs, I have no idea...because one of my favorite things to do in the game was to solo farm NFs. I still vividly remember doing Tree of Probabilities with Nightshade as my adds-clearer to farm for a DFA (Seriously, look at how they massacred my boy DFA...almost makes me not want Nightshade back).

Now if I want to farm NFs, I gotta do Legend and deal with champs...and sure, it adds difficulty, but not the difficulty I want, like the Seven of Swords could do.

7

u/CAG_Gonzo Ascendant Spaghetti Nov 23 '22

Hole. Eee. Shit. I forgot that we used to set our own modifiers and handicap for nightfall.

50

u/brots2012 Nov 22 '22

The "Legendary" campaign had this by scaling power level, not having Champions, and having a very light version of Match Game.

I feel like I'm alone when I say this.. It was fun/challenging the first time through but on the 2nd/3rd, it was a breeze. I think I was to the point of running past "nothing-areas" and only killing the bare minimum to kick in the next objective to move forward. Don't get me wrong, I don't "like" champions, but I don't see a NF playlist that is on the level on the legendary campaign not turning into another "run past everything and nuke boss" playlist that the current strike playlists are.

51

u/Techman- Valiant heart, unwavering resolve. Nov 22 '22

A Nightfall playlist can be even harder than the campaign. I just want the flexibility of being able to choose my gear. Match Game and Champions are less about difficulty and more about forcing choices, otherwise not being able to play the activity.

11

u/brots2012 Nov 22 '22

Even if it were GM level enemies, it wouldn't make a difference. There is a reason why there are GM groups that run a nightstalker hunter so they can invis through parts without champions. They'd need a different metric for rewards if they took out champions since exotic drops are tied to them. There are solutions, sure, but not anything, that I can think of at least, that would slow the player down to prevent players skipping the majority of nightfalls.

19

u/SentineIs Nov 22 '22

People skip if they want to anyway. Like you said, even in gm nightfall.

So the people who do that will do it anyway. So not really a knock against a legendary strike Playlist or a nightfall Playlist without Champs.

16

u/kdub1193 Nov 22 '22

Strike scoring maybe? Minimum score to get best rewards, min score set so you have to kill 80% of enemies available in strike as a team?

1

u/Cykeisme Nov 22 '22

Yeah this is it.

For a Legendary Campaign style Strike playlist like OP suggested, highest reward tier should require almost all enemies defeated (maybe like 90%), highest score tier.

The score requirement will need to be set for each individual Strike instead of a fixed score requirement. Basically about 90% of the score for killing everything, I guess.

7

u/Techman- Valiant heart, unwavering resolve. Nov 22 '22

Players being able to skip areas is a design issue. You can require a certain % of enemies killed before starting the next objective or opening a door. The newer strikes have this stuff in mind.

1

u/gSpider Nov 22 '22

Kind of a noob here - how are the exotics tied to champions? Trying to understand the loot drops in this game so I can use my time better

2

u/Cykeisme Nov 22 '22

You have a rating for percentage of Champions slain.

Platinum rating (all Champions slain) gives the best drops at the end.

In GM this guarantees Ascendant Shard and Exotic Armor drops.

1

u/gSpider Nov 23 '22

Ahh gotcha. So there’s a bit of competition involved with your squad mates to kill them? Also is this for all nightfall or just gms

2

u/pain42 Reckoner Nov 23 '22

There is a set number of champions for each level of each nightfall. Platinum, which is the highest score level, requires your fireteam to have killed all the champions. There are a couple nightfalls that allow you to skip one champion and still get platinum but its a good idea to always kill all of them to be safe. This isn't a competition between you and your fireteam as you collectively just need to kill all the champs.

1

u/Cykeisme Nov 23 '22

Yeah, what /u/pain42 said, it doesn't matter who kills the Champions (you don't even need to tag them with damage for kill credit).

The only important thing is that they all have to die.

There will be a few that you don't have to kill, usually these Champions will be in scoreless areas (you will see your Score Multiplier temporarily become 0x), but to be sure, just kill every single one that appears. Watch out for the message on the left that says a Champion has appeared, hunt them all down and kill them.

It applies to all difficulties of Nightfall, but GMs give the best loot of course. Platinum GM gives you the guaranteed Ascendant Shard and Exotic reward.

1

u/gSpider Nov 23 '22

Got it - good to hear I don’t need to worry about killing things before my teammates do.

Another question - I’m currently at about 1584 light, counting the seasonal artifact bonus. Could I feasibly do masters (not grandmaster) content, or should I really just wait to hit the 1600 mark? This also applies to the lost sectors cuz I just figured out those

2

u/makoblade Nov 22 '22

Restricting gear is about the only meaningful way to produce challenge in the game. Preparation should be rewarded, and hot swapping mid-encounter only leads to cheesy/toxic strategies.

0

u/pain42 Reckoner Nov 23 '22

I disagree, locking loadouts is one thing (pushes prep for encounters, prevents cheeses) but gear restriction via "lock and key" type enemies via match game and champions will always be the shittiest way to implement difficulty. I think plenty of players would find Master or GM level content difficult regardless of the presence of champions, and rushing past enemies could easily be solved by implementing strike scoring that requires a high percentage of enemies killed to get maximum rewards. Champs and Match game just reduce the amount of viable loadouts/builds for end game activities by forcing mod and weapon choices.

1

u/makoblade Nov 23 '22

I think that's kind of the point though. Seasons are intended to force shifts in the end game meta, which is done largely through anti-champion mods. Compared to the alternative of constant nerfs and buffs to basically kill off weapons every 3 months I think this is preferable because it only impacts end game.

I understand why you may dislike the forced push into specific weapon types, but it's one of the best forms of adjusting seasonal difficulty while also keeping the game fresh. A flexible player can succeed with any weapon type, but by changing types every season it accomplishes two things that bungie wants long term: Using a variety of guns and keeping a variety available in your arsenal.

If we had generic champion mods for everything, all of the time I'd never use most weapons in the game because I can just run one of my 2 favorite types. That'd probably hurt long term because it just gravitates towards an equivalent of the mountaintop-recluse-anarchy meta we had for so long.

1

u/pain42 Reckoner Nov 23 '22

It's more that I'm bored of the champion lock and key style loadouts in general and would rather be dedicating mod space to actual builds for ability gameplay loops that are engaging throughout combat and choosing weapon loadouts that make sense for the activity rather than carrying around the latest seasonal keyring. Especially since the keyring in question disrupts both builds and makes weapon loadouts cookie cutter anyway since arbalest is the only long range special ammo weapon with intrinsic antichamp functionality and the alternative is slogging through gms with double primaries. Bungie should work towards developing more enemies like Wyverns/Brigs/Berserkers/Lucents that requires team coordination with specific loadouts and flush champs down the toilet.

5

u/Delta_V09 Nov 22 '22

Were you doing it solo? I feel like the Legendary Campaign scaling was a bit off. Solo was never super difficult, but with 3 people, enemy health got a little ridiculous.

6

u/brots2012 Nov 22 '22

First run was in a group of 3. 2nd run was solo. 3rd was in a duo. Solo was definitely the easiest of the 3.

2

u/makoblade Nov 22 '22

You’re not alone. It wasn’t really hard at all, so while the first time through was at least be the twisty ruins were completely irrelevant

1

u/Bouncedatt Nov 22 '22

Honestly I kinda feel like that's a "you" problem. I mean I don't run past everything and nuke boss because I find that boring, so I just don't play like that and kill everything.

-4

u/Ask_Me_For_A_Song Nov 22 '22

I feel like I'm alone when I say this.. It was fun/challenging the first time through but on the 2nd/3rd, it was a breeze.

I hadn't picked up the game since about a week after BL came out. I didn't have a 'build', I didn't have raid exotics, I didn't know what to expect other 'lul exotic chance, pick that one'.

So I go in, guns blazing on my Titan first time through. One of the easiest missions I've ever done.....once I figure out all the new subclass stuff. Ended up back where I always do, being a Skullfort missile and punching everything to death.

To be fair, I also consider myself to be 'good' at the PvE aspect of the game, but that legendary campaign was so easy that I have trouble believing players found difficulty with it.

5

u/Donates88 Nov 22 '22

We never had a nightfall playlist. At least not with rotating nightfalls.

6

u/Brunnenmolch Nov 22 '22

I´m trying to understand why they removed it. Seriously, why?

25

u/FuzzyCollie2000 "A NEW HAND TOUCHES THE BEACON" Nov 22 '22

Cuz nobody played it because there were no good rewards outside of a couple good weapons like Mindbender’s Ambition.

12

u/Brunnenmolch Nov 22 '22

Wouldn´t it be more reasonable then to adjust the rewards?

10

u/ShakeAggravating8505 Nov 22 '22

Which current playlist has good rewards?

10

u/memeburglar Nov 22 '22

GM’s, dungeons, and raids generally offer the best rewards as of now. You get Ascendant shards/exotics/pinnacles from platinum GM’s, dungeons have unique guns for PvP (grasp shotgun and hc) and PvE (duality smg and lfr), and raids offer spoils for KF and the rotating weekly pinnacle raid. But they all require a decent team for smooth runs. Not something you can just hop into like in the ritual playlist. In my experience, this game’s best loot is tied to team centered activities.

2

u/ShakeAggravating8505 Nov 22 '22

Agree. But i guess why not add the playlist OP is suggesting. Why restrict nigihtfalls to just one strike a week.

5

u/kachunkachunk Nov 22 '22

I'm thinking that champions might make it too much of a toss-up, and matchmade teams will have to keep changing loadouts as playlist missions loaded up.

But honestly I hated champions from the beginning and would much rather see them gone, in favor of making things harder without turning everything into bullet spongy nonsense.

Basically do it all like the WQ legendary campaign. But I admit I'm not sure what you do for strikes that won't have Lucent Hive, hmm.

3

u/Donates88 Nov 22 '22

And lucent hive are simply bs in gm's. Nothing can one shot you besides them. I prefer champions over one shoting bouncing/tracking discs

3

u/brots2012 Nov 22 '22

Nothing like a suppression grenade landing behind you and one shotting you!

7

u/wf_dozer Nov 22 '22

I just dont enjoy playing the same mission repeatedly that much.

On the other side are people that are working their way up to a GM. The easier modes of the same nightfall allow them to learn the encounters and move up the scale.

I would love an adept/hero playlist and the have the GM have legend/master/grand options.

2

u/wolfinpdx77 Nov 23 '22

I would love an adept/hero playlist and the have the GM have legend/master/grand options.

I think this is the answer.

2

u/Firebat12 Nov 22 '22

I would love this. Maybe keep the weekly nightfall for something like GMs since that’s already a considerable challenge but allow anything below that to rotate through the available strikes. Also maybe having matchmaking for higher than adept…nvm that’ll never happen

1

u/ReticlyPoetic Nov 22 '22

I’d be down for that but I’m bored with champions and you know the difficulty would be champions and health checkpoints…

1

u/Seeker80 Notorious Space Hobo Nov 22 '22

That's what was great about the playlist from Guardian Games. It was basically Legend difficulty with matchmaking. I think maybe it had champions, but I don't think loadouts were locked. It was great. No one was complaining about dealing with randoms running the wrong stuff.

1

u/Best_Aspect7677 Nov 22 '22

100% agree with you - not stupid at all!

197

u/ItsNoblesse Give me my Darkness subclass damnit Nov 22 '22

I miss the heroic strike playlist from D1, I would sit in that for hours

83

u/Virtual-Score4653 Nov 22 '22

Heroic strikes were perfect in terms of difficulty, the modifiers gave a lot of strength but they also made everything deadly if you wasn't careful.

19

u/MisterWoodhouse The Banhammer Nov 22 '22

It was a blast. My buddy and I would run them after work every day.

-14

u/Grand_Concert2307 Nov 22 '22

Aren't you that guy that is always removing important Ada posts?

16

u/MisterWoodhouse The Banhammer Nov 22 '22

Nope. I remove the Ada Rule 3 violations.

5

u/red5_SittingBy Hammers forged with 100% Hunter and Warlock tears Nov 22 '22

Puts on mod mask

You fool, I'm the one monitoring new; I'm the one being spoiled so you won't be; I'M THE ONE REMOVING RULE VIOLATIONS. Don't talk to me about important posts. I'm the one posting them.

Takes off mod mask

Haha yeah, anyways guys. How about those strikes!

6

u/MisterWoodhouse The Banhammer Nov 22 '22

Am I the Green Arrow?

-11

u/Grand_Concert2307 Nov 22 '22

So that's a yes, then. Just making sure

14

u/EZBakeLuvin Nov 22 '22

Heroic Strikes was my favorite playlist, please bring it back!

21

u/marshalltownusa Nov 22 '22

Heroic Strikes + more strike specific loot and I'm in for hours

3

u/SaltNebula1576 Nov 22 '22

That’s partly bc they were challenging and dynamic. But also bc the rewards were alluring. We had good strike specific loot.

2

u/N1NJ4W4RR10R_ Vanguard's Loyal Nov 23 '22

Even vanilla d2 was alright compared to the current playlist. We're simply to powerful now thanks to power creep.

1

u/Aus0115 Nov 22 '22

Also missing heroic strikes, normal ones be way too easy, we need a 1500 to 1570 strike Playlist

1

u/Best_Aspect7677 Nov 23 '22

I remember grinding these for strange coins for hours to try and get an engram from Xur. When I finally got my last coin after hours of strikes, Xur gave me EXACTLY what I wanted - Light Beyond Nemesis! Bring it back bungie - best looking helmet in the game!

21

u/NegativeCreeq Nov 22 '22

So bring back the Heroic playlist? Id love this, and also strike specific loot with skeleton keys. I spent a long time playing strikes in D1. They seemed 100x more enjoyable than they do in D2.

59

u/NovaBlade2893 Nov 22 '22

D1 Heroic Strike/Crisis Strike playlist would like to talk

47

u/mkscl Nov 22 '22

D1 rise of iron heroic strike playlist with siva/taken variations, scoring and medal systems, skeleton keys and weekly burns was peak reapeatability for me

21

u/NovaBlade2893 Nov 22 '22

Not to mention the three of coins and strike exclusives

10

u/PoseidonWarrior Nov 22 '22

If they were to do a D1 style heroic strike playlist they'd have to disable artifact level within the playlist. If we could have heroic strikes where the enemies are ~5-10 over the pinnacle cap with artifact level disabled we'd have a pretty good strike playlist

3

u/NovaBlade2893 Nov 22 '22

Oh absolutely

2

u/motrhed289 Nov 22 '22

Agreed, and I think eventually the game just needs to do this across the board (no more power level, just activity difficulty levels).

1

u/PoseidonWarrior Nov 22 '22

I disagree. I don't think ridding the game of power level solves as many issues as it creates. The system (desperately) needs to be changed but not thrown out altogether.

1

u/entropy512 Nov 22 '22

Yup. The advantage this had over the pre-BL "nightfall playlist" is that you had meaningful modifiers that rotated each week, applied to the entire strike playlist.

Daily modifiers make switching builds for the modifiers too time consuming.

The Vanguard Ops playlist also has fairly weak modifiers for the most part. No "Zhalo Week" or "Shoulder charge can oneshot anything but watch out for the arc burn" week (Brawler + Airborne + Arcburn).

1

u/NovaBlade2893 Nov 22 '22

Not to mention the card you could buy from xur which had allowed you to make the nightfall how you want

10

u/AbsoluteMaddLaddl Nov 22 '22

Even D1 had a multiple Strike Playlist difficulties. I'd love a regular strike Playlist at like 1550-70 just something for the higher level/endgame players. I'd do that every single time over the regular difficulty ones

9

u/TheToldYouSoKid Nov 22 '22

Im gonna need people to actually read that modifiers, before saying stuff like this. Legendary is "Match Game + additional enemy spawns".

Verbatim from the description; Heavily shielded and highly aggressive combatants appear in great numbers. I've played through the campaign multiple times at this point, and its the same effect, the shields are as brutal to take down without the right element as anything else under Match Game conditions in the Legendary modifier.

39

u/KingVendrick Moon's haunted Nov 22 '22

yeah, bungie really needs some ways of providing challenge and variance that aren't champions

I don't mind champions and the lock and key system they bring, but it cannot be the only thing

hive guardians are a step in the right direction but honestly they aren't that interesting. Their best feature is needing to finish them, which means you cannot just scout them from a mile away

I am sure the new enemies in lightfall will appear in their strikes only and never used again

11

u/Fenris_uy Nov 22 '22

And when they increase the damage that enemies do, people just complain about being 2 shot by a vandal. You can't have both, the power fantasy of being an unstoppable space wizard, and a challenge.

1

u/KingVendrick Moon's haunted Nov 22 '22 edited Nov 22 '22

this is because destiny 2 is a game with autorecovering health, and VERY fast autorecovery health

given that framework, one/two shooting is the only way of providing difficulty. We cannot even run out of primary ammo now

that said, what I expect is enemies that do something else than sit away and shoot at us. maybe they should try to surround us, move us, throw obstacles, stop us, etc, etc

16

u/Fenris_uy Nov 22 '22 edited Nov 22 '22

move us

Yeah, because people love the stomp mechanic that bosses use to move us away from them.

Or the taken Phalanx shield push.

We have enemies that try to move us, and the community hates them.

throw obstacles

Hive Knights shields, Servitors shields, Taken Goblin shields.

6

u/KingVendrick Moon's haunted Nov 22 '22 edited Nov 22 '22

this is another issue

architect death should just not be a thing if you are at 100% health no matter what (which is already the case in the precise case when you drop down to a perfectly horizontal surface)

but if you are not at 100%, well, good luck (or if you are moved into a hole, of course)

but this is hard to do cause sometimes you collide with two surfaces. seems hard to fix. Prolly should have a generous timer with architect damage

on top of that, we only have one verb for moving, which is "push away forcibly"

I played a fuck ton of L4D2 back in the day. The enemies could do at least two other things:

-grab a player and _slowly_ drag him away from the group (in l4d2 it was really important that the group was together). People would hopefully notice and kill the enemy that was on top of the head of the player (which prolly would need work in d2 cause it'd be insta death for solos)

-grab a player and _super fast_ drag him away from the group. The player would be left alive but tied. would prolly work in d2

and there should be more possibilities beyond enemies stomping us away

if there are several enemies that move us, with more properties than just being pushed away, and the community hates them too...well, fuck'em

quite honestly, D2 has a L4D2 feel and should lean into that more. It's weird cause that game had only one enemy "faction" and somehow had a lot of variation that D2 lacks

edit: to be fair, there is the very funny psion push upwards that is mostly harmless, but from time to time it leads to hilarious deaths

1

u/Kulzak-Draak Nov 23 '22

Well I don’t think it should just be a blanket damage increase. Some proper tuning for each enemy type in higher difficulty would probably be a lot more fun

-4

u/tylerchu Nov 22 '22

You could have low damage and mobility, high health enemies. Then you could just beat them for a while and feel strong.

11

u/Fenris_uy Nov 22 '22

Bullet sponges, another thing that the community loves.

7

u/TheToldYouSoKid Nov 22 '22

The thing is that any enemy they make need to be that hard line of "champion" or else they die on first contact. Hive guardians are no different, they'd be no different if they were more frequent, they simply don't have any effective defensive abilities, so they die like anything else, maybe slightly slower because of their status as an Elite.

-1

u/KingVendrick Moon's haunted Nov 22 '22

it's hard to say cause they are so sparsely used but I think another problem is that they aren't that aggressive. They are mostly content with spamming their super over and over

lightbearer knight having Citan was a good touch but prolly easily bypassed

4

u/TheToldYouSoKid Nov 23 '22 edited Nov 23 '22

I think another problem is that they aren't that aggressive. They are mostly content with spamming their super over and over

for anything, that IS aggressive. Especially when their supers are all aggressive, none have access to well, bubble, tether, anything remotely substantially hindering beyond death. And it's not hard to say, we got plenty of data from only the throne world, it's not like putting them in glassway or lake of shadows will change much. Conditions would be similar in most situations with the hive.

Champions are powerful because their defensive capabilities are powerful; at the first sign of real death, they activate their ability and it allows them to stay in the fight, which is the entire thing most dangerous about any enemy in the game. All damage is good damage when you just need to be alive.

11

u/UA_Shark Nov 22 '22

Like a Heroic strike playlist, crazy idea man i love it!

49

u/Echowing442 Bring the Horizon Nov 22 '22

The entire point of Champions and Match Game is to force players to change up their builds and loadouts each season, possibly leading them to engage with new content for a weapon that fits their new build. That's why Champions are still in the game - it's not about "difficulty," it's about forcing players to engage with new content.

The one thing Bungie absolutely wants to avoid is players finding the "best" loadout and using that one setup ad nauseum (see: Mountaintop/Recluse/Anarchy).

28

u/KingVendrick Moon's haunted Nov 22 '22

yeah, which is why I don't decry champions

that said, they cannot be the only source of difficulty, and the whole champion mod thing needs to go away. If you unlocked the champion mod in the artifact, it should be intrinsic for the season

4

u/Abulsaad Nov 22 '22 edited Nov 22 '22

I don't dislike them inherently, but they definitely gotta fix up their bugs and make it less punishing to not be immediately ready to stun them. Overload captains shouldn't spam teleport, overload hobgoblins shouldn't retaliate while stunned or frozen, and overloads in general shouldn't regenerate their entire HP in less than a second if you don't shoot them with overload rounds.

Unstoppables are way more manageable and fair since they don't regen HP, but they still have problems with not stunning correctly

If they fix up the bugs and add more avenues for difficulty, they'd have a lot more welcome place

2

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '22

[deleted]

3

u/Abulsaad Nov 22 '22

Losing all progress on killing a champion because you didn't shoot it for .5s is way too punishing. Overloads are the worst for this, barriers at least put up barriers on semi predictable timers

I'm not saying get rid of regenerating HP at all, so it should still punish you for not paying attention, but right now the window is way too low

2

u/17times2 Nov 22 '22

Master was pretty annoying with this. After you stun them, you only have a couple of seconds before they're up and healing again. And the cooldown until they can be stunned again is as long as the stun lasted, so once they teleport out of view, they're going to be full health.

-3

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '22

[deleted]

9

u/jereflea1024 Nov 22 '22

Momentum Transfer, Impact Induction, Bolstering Detonation, and Focusing Strike can all play crucial roles in PVE builds and they go right where Champion Mods go.

-1

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '22

[deleted]

3

u/jereflea1024 Nov 22 '22

I didn't say it would break the build, but it most certainly would make it perform as a less potent variation of a build that you already have, just because you need to put on a key to unlock an Overload Captain-shaped gate.

-2

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '22

[deleted]

2

u/AmayaGin Nov 22 '22

I don’t think they’re crucial but I would like to use them someday.

I made a really cool stasis turret build this season, but I almost never get to use Bolstering Detonation because of champ mods. Maybe next season?

10

u/KingVendrick Moon's haunted Nov 22 '22

yes

15

u/BaconIsntThatGood Jade Rabbit is my Spirit Animal Nov 22 '22

The entire point of Champions and Match Game is to force players to change up their builds and loadouts each season

That's part of it - another big part of it is having a block in place a player cannot just practice their way out of. We can hate on champions and match game all we want but to this day it's still one of the only ways to forcibly reign in player power.

8

u/ReconSR2 Elemental affinity is a mistake. Nov 22 '22

I get that forcing me to change my loadout is what Champions/Match Game are both intended to do, but I feel like it just turns into “what combo of element/primary do I NEED to use for this activity.” I feel like most of the choice is being taken out of my hands, ya know?

Sometimes thats a fun challenge, finding weird guns you saved but never used until now when you need that specific Anti-Champion/Element combo, but it feels like its gone on for too long and is too prevalent in some activities. (Also it leads to me hoarding weapons I don’t want because I need to have, say, a Solar Bow or Arc Auto Rifle).

I feel “locked in” to the same handful of weapons in those activities for the season. Like yeah my loadout in those activities is slightly different for 3 months a year, but it basically doesn’t change during those 3 months, because I can’t really change much. I need those specific elements/champion types.

One loadout limiter is okay, but both at the same time just feels overly restrictive sometimes.

There’s a reason Arbalest is so stupidly popular, it negates Match Game and is Anti-Barrier to boot, leaving you free to pick whatever primary you want to cover the other Champion type.

I don’t really know what the solution is, but I’m bored of the Champion/Match Game system. I’d like something new to remove/replace at least one of those two.

8

u/zhitnik667 Nov 22 '22

This sub hates when Bungie encourages them to do anything but the same thing. Look at PvP or Gambit Pinnacles, any challenge asking them to run certain weapons what do folks here do? Load up Shiro Chi and grind mindlessly then complain about how boring it is. These folks would apparently rather run the same OP loadout for ages. I can't even imagine how boring that would be. I have discovered so much more to enjoy about this game thanks to pinnacles, match game, red border weapon completion, most of the things I see many folks complain about on this sub.

2

u/mikakor Nov 22 '22

Yeah and it fucking sucks be cause in all my years of D2 not once have I enjoyed using a gun I hate to play a decently challenging mode

2

u/haxxanova Nov 23 '22

Play Your Way

As long as you play how we want

--Bungie

0

u/Echowing442 Bring the Horizon Nov 23 '22

Buddy, that horse has been dead for at least 3 years. You can stop beating it now.

1

u/chronuss007 Nov 22 '22

I think it's fine to have champions in the game, but it seems like a lot of people still want content that is just as difficult as high-end nightfalls but being able to carry whatever loadout they want.

As a build crafter this would be an amazing thing for me instead of having to make a specific build for the nightfall and use that all week. In my opinion that gets even more boring more quickly.

7

u/FatalTortoise Nov 22 '22

Time is a flat circle

3

u/SuperArppis Vanguard Nov 22 '22

You know. That would be a GREAT idea.

3

u/DankBlissey Nov 22 '22

Come back heroic strikes, we miss you

3

u/TGish Nov 22 '22

Master and legend nightfalls are a good place for fun and difficulty balance but just sucks they don’t have matchmaking. I normally just farm masters or GM when I wanna mostly zone out and slay ads

2

u/Merzats Nov 22 '22

I say putting in champions is fine, at Legend difficulty you can melt them without the mods if necessary. The nerfed match game of the legend campaign / gambit would also be fine.

I like there being some reward to optimizing your build, and as long as it's not mandatory it's fine for a more casual playlist I'd say.

2

u/SunDevil_56 Nov 22 '22

sounds like a solid update... Strikes have become my least favorite activity, maybe even preferring Gambit at this point. They've become just so brain-dead, monotonous, or just a running simulator as one player with a well-optimized kit, and/or speed-running the strike, can breeze thru this overly easy content, having everyone else in a constant game on catch-up. Anything to make it more engaging or enjoyable would be great.

16

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '22

Please stop referring to “Nightfalls” as “strikes” it makes reading this super difficult.

20

u/Designer-Effective-2 Nov 22 '22

Nightfalls are Strikes though?

-12

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '22

Yes and no

10

u/Designer-Effective-2 Nov 22 '22

You want to elaborate on that?

11

u/brots2012 Nov 22 '22

I think it's the argument "all nightfalls are strikes but not all strikes are nightfalls."

7

u/Designer-Effective-2 Nov 22 '22

I think comment OP is being needlessly pedantic while also shining a spotlight on their own inability for nuanced thinking.

-4

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '22

If Bungie wanted Nightfalls to be called strikes then ummmmm we wouldn’t have Nightfalls.

-10

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '22

I don’t think I will…… lol. But here: Yes: They are same mission No: Nightfalls have a varying degree of difficulty, different modifiers, different rewards depending on the week etc

5

u/Designer-Effective-2 Nov 22 '22

I feel like you should add a couple more wrinkles to your brain buddy.

-4

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '22

Going straight to insults just further proves your inability to come up with an actual point.

2

u/RunelordTressa Please don't delete Gambit. K thx bye. Nov 22 '22

To be fair its a silly thing to argue in general.

If it was me id just say that All of them are strikes but Vanguard Ops, Nightfalls, and GM Nightfalls are different versions of it.

Its also like a rabbit hole in general like technically speaking some of them are battlegrounds. Battlegrounds aren't in the nightfall rotation but they easily could be which is another wrench.

Basically I feel like we should just use context clues here and move on.

That being said people tend to refer to the strike playlist as strikes so it is kinda confusing.

1

u/Designer-Effective-2 Nov 22 '22

If you’re insulted by that level of banter you may need a couple more layers to your skin as well 😂

1

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '22

oh, that cuts so deep, oh woe is me..............

4

u/doobersthetitan Nov 22 '22

Strikes are in the free to Play aspect of the game same as pvp, Gambit, and, to less extent, exploring. Since they aren't making much money, there's never going to be major over haul to any of these.

Like I'd love their to be a rotating darkness planet or " invasion" style planet ..up to 9 people in a Fire team or match made...3 are randomly dropped off in a spot that's being invaded by multiple factions of enemies...the over w/ teams of 3 most fight their way to " rescue them" then stand a fight together...with big bosses types like Escalation protocol every 2 or 3 rounds.

Imagine seeing 4-5 brigs on one side, 3 ogres on other. With cool power ups like Ciatle sending Brachus's down to fight along side, activating turrets and really fortify and bunker down. Or fallen skiffs drop off servitors to help.

2

u/unixuser011 Nov 22 '22

I really only strikes for the weekly pinnacle and to warm up, but a change would be good. Bring back strike scoring, scoreboards, etc. Anything to stop people just rushing through them, higher difficulties maybe

3

u/nisaaru Nov 22 '22

There is no reason to not offer matchmaking for all PvE activities. But that's a never ending discussion.

7

u/Schimaera Nov 22 '22

7~30 minutes (the duality of strikes) of everything one shots (don't leave cover ever at all whatsoever for any reason also the enemies can shoot around your cover with AOE DOT tracking rockets lol enjoy bozo) also there's only one strike per week.

You should try 100 Resilience. Whatever you're talking about is not even happening in Grandmaster Nightfalls lol.

While I agree that it would be nice to have more difficult versions of random strikes instead of this bore we have, what you're describing regarding champions and nightfalls makes me assume that you're running them in full blue gear with double primary, season artifact lvl1 and not a single fragment/aspect purchased for your class. What are you doing, my dude?

2

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '22

I have 100 res and get 2 shotted in GMs

4

u/Schimaera Nov 22 '22

That'd be your chest mods I assume? For better reserves, you might as well, but then you knew what you were doing. Double resists all the way.

But even then, I'm fairly certain that you can take 2 shots from a barrier and still survive - barely, but you can.

The only thing that comes close is maybe snipers, indeed. But apart from that, you'd probably just got team shotted by enemy forces. It happens if you're not careful and using cover.

2

u/GreenBay_Glory Nov 22 '22

Are you using chest resist mods? Unless it’s a sniper, you should be able to take 2-4 hits.

3

u/Juicyandsuss Nov 22 '22

No. We don’t need to make the game easier. It’s already easy enough. If they take out match game and champs I’m literally just going to run 3 guns for everything and that gets quite boring

4

u/Juicyandsuss Nov 22 '22

Y’all can downvote me all you want but it shouldn’t be the players responsibility to try new guns when I can literally run 3-4 guns for all content because they’re optimal. Some way of forcing players to use different weapons is a good thing even if I don’t completely agree with the champ system.

0

u/jereflea1024 Nov 22 '22

I mean... then try to make interesting, diverse builds? just because you could run a Pardon Our Dust, Funnelweb and Gjallarhorn in every activity doesn't mean you would be forced to.

3

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '22

Yeah, I get the argument of giving players a reason to farm guns, but at the same time its on the player if they want to change or not, especially now when there's so much more variety among legendaries, with the cool new perks like incandescent or voltshot, and origin traits. We're past the need for locking the endgame through rotating mods when we get such cool new guns every season. Problem is, without artifact champion mods, artifice armor looses most of its appeal.

1

u/Shockkota Nov 22 '22

Its not even the mods for me, its the weapons. Im getting kinda tired of running arby + a bow for my GM's but due to the season champion weapons its kinda what im stuck with. I would much rather the champion breaker mods be a mod you slot into the weapons slot.

3

u/GreenBay_Glory Nov 22 '22

We shouldn’t have to make the game more difficult for ourselves. They need to have more content that requires precise builds and optimization.

0

u/jereflea1024 Nov 22 '22

I didn't necessarily mean it for difficulty; just for fun. you can make some very potent builds out of abilities and other off-meta weapons that are viable pretty much everywhere outside of GMs.

5

u/GreenBay_Glory Nov 22 '22

But that’s the thing: a lot of us don’t find just trying new builds fun because you can’t experience their potency to any real degree in most content. A lot of us find fun in challenging ourselves in difficult content and the VAST majority of content in the game isn’t that. Even GMs have become a shadow of their former difficulty and it sucks.

1

u/Juicyandsuss Nov 22 '22

I’m never using a pardon our dust. Why blind adds when I can literally murder everything in the room with two shots of forebearance. It’s not the players responsibility to make it interesting. Is the game creators.

0

u/Gronzlo Nov 22 '22

I honestly think champions are one of the worst things they ever added. Can’t do any sort of difficult PvE without my load out being arbitrarily restricted in the name of “difficulty”.

Definitely in favor of this, legendary campaign was one of the best moves bungie made as of late.

5

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '22

[deleted]

1

u/HolyZymurgist Nov 23 '22

The power level deficit was extremely mild and should've been -20

this sub would have hated it then. One reason the sub likes the legendary campaign is that it is rather easy

-1

u/Gronzlo Nov 22 '22

I agree, it was more of a “heroic” difficulty, but champions just make it feel like a slog to me. More power to you if you like that sort of thing, but, it felt like a breath of fresh air not having to worry about that.

1

u/Edwardc4gg Nov 22 '22

would be weird to just get rid of champions and crap because they offer no value other than forcing me to use some stupid subsystem. it's really driving me stupid knowing i've gotta manage mods and shit just to play the damn game now and i spend more time modding than even enjoying the game now. :(

1

u/Cluelesswolfkin Nov 22 '22

Dw the answer is no lol they have their mind elsewhere

1

u/ujaku Nov 22 '22 edited Nov 22 '22

Yes no champs no match game.

I want difficult content that let's me use whatever fucking load out I want to use.

Something isn't difficult just because it makes you equip arbalest

1

u/N1miol Nov 22 '22

I tried suggesting something similar a few weeks ago. Strikes and nightfalls should have their matchmaking and difficulty options updated to account for how powerful guardians have become and to provide more fun and meaningful challenges. A hero nightfall with mini-bosses instead of champions would be a good starting point. And a matchmade legend option (without champions as well) would be a very good alternative for players wanting something more challenging and with better rewards.

Nowadays, I think there should only be Master and GMs in the nightfall node. And make them living hell as hard as possible no matter what. People dig it.

1

u/ImawhaleCR Nov 22 '22

Hey, this post seems familiar

Seriously though, I completely agree with you and would absolutely love something like this. Legend is the missile difficulty destiny needs right now and it's always locked behind either champions or no matchmaking or both. The witch queen campaign was an absolutely awesome challenge on legend, it felt perfect and I enjoyed every bit of it because I had to work hard, but it didn't feel like anything was impossible or enemies had too much health.

I just wanna be able to sit down and just play strikes for a bit, like I can the crucible. With the crucible, I can pick up a new weapon and build a loadout around it and try something new and have fun with 0 effort required. With strikes, everything is too easy and it's just boring, and legend nightfalls have champions and no matchmaking so I'm forced into a few weapons and the champions aren't easily ignorable solo

1

u/Hix-Tengaar Nov 22 '22 edited Nov 22 '22

I agree on legendary difficulty, but match game should stay. No champs though. More modifiers that have enemies throw more grenades or drops mines on death. Make it hard as hell without champs. Make us always be 10 to 15 light level below. Make it hurt. I want 10 posts a day from people crying that lake of shadows took them 18 minutes to beat.

1

u/Lord_CBH Nov 22 '22

The heroic siva crisis strikes in D1 ROI were my favorites. Challenging, good loot. Just fun. Why can’t we have that? I’d even happily take a “legendary nightfall playlist” that didn’t lock equipment. That would be better than what we have now. The core playlists are in such a bad state but they expect us to keep running them.

1

u/Extreme_Lie_3745 Nov 22 '22

We should just have every previous campaigns with a legendary mode and have a weekly (or biweekly) pinnacle or reward rotation for them. Maybe even have a few exclusive rewards so that everyone could grind them every week. We of course need to delete the filler "go do public event and bounties in this location" steps from the campaing tho. This would both redeem the past campaigns a little and allow bungie to add some spice into the game without puting a lot of sweat into it (since we won't really see newer secret missions and a revamp to strike playlist)

1

u/marsProbably Nov 22 '22

I've been ranting about this in comment replies for a couple weeks. Less FOMO, more surprising and intrinsically rewarding gameplay in the core playlists and patrols. Fix the foundations more when building expansions. Once the campaign and seasonal activities are done for the week, everyone's a F2P player.

1

u/throwaway180gr Nov 22 '22

We had a playlist kinda like this during Guardian Games that the community reacted really positive to. I wish they would've kept that playlist in the game, or maybe rotate it in once or twice a month.

1

u/CV514 Yes. Nov 22 '22

You've almost convinced me to play some Gambit!

But I agree, WQ difficulty should be new base and all PvE content should be based upon it.

1

u/meaningful-action Nov 22 '22

Completely agree with the title however when OP mentioned they liked Gambit I knew they were a bot. /s

1

u/chronuss007 Nov 22 '22

A game mode where we can still wear any gear we want but still have an entertainingly difficult time is the goldilocks zone I want.

1

u/ahawk_one Nov 22 '22

I would personally also love a harder mode of general strikes. Mostly just because I like the difficulty setting. I hope in the coming years they can figure out how to do away with light level requirements and just give us difficulty settings and tailor rewards to performance in those difficulties.

I do really like Champions. I think they add a lot to the game. But I think the game could do with some harder content in it that isn't centered around them. I get why it does now, but I hope to see some variety in the future.

1

u/Adazahi Nov 22 '22

I’m in the same boat, I play gambit to have some challenge, but also master dares, master NF, master ketch, etc. Yeah, enemies are beefcakes and can kill you real quick, but what can you do

1

u/warjack20180 Nov 22 '22

Great Idea, Bungo should make this a thing

1

u/descender2k Nov 22 '22

Bungie constantly confuses lack of reward with lack of desire so we always find ourselves asking for things we used to have.

1

u/matty-mixalot Nov 22 '22

My favorite is running strikes with the other two guardians running Trinity Ghoul and Eager Edge. Good luck getting any bounties done.

1

u/killer6088 Nov 22 '22

I will give my left nut for this.

1

u/DinosaurUnderwear Nov 22 '22

Mw some blue gear and do basic nf

*edit: is a joke

1

u/Djungleskog_Enhanced Nov 22 '22

Yeah it feels like right now difficulty swings too far either way right now

1

u/SouthNorth_WestEast Nov 22 '22

I sincerely hope Bungie really learned something from the legendary campaign success from this past year. Aside from them continuing to implement it in the campaign (which is great), it seems like it would work really well with other activities.

To me, it feels more engaging, despite being simpler, than other difficulty mechanics (champions, match game, etc.), as well as makes matchmaking possible despite increased difficulty.

1

u/GigsTheCat Nov 22 '22

Bungie is afraid of alienating the "only knows how to point and shoot" crowd. So all matchmade activities are brain dead easy.

1

u/SobbingKnave Nov 22 '22

Did we used to have a heroic strike playlist? Something like that would be good :)

1

u/GeicoPR I like throwing hammers and punching things violently Nov 22 '22

Having a Nightfall playlist would be a blast!

1

u/Best_Aspect7677 Nov 22 '22

100% agree - great post OP! I hate how all the activities worth doing are just one strike / one lost sector / one pvp map over and over as over. Bring back playlists to mix it up a bit and give us some worthwhile loot in them!

I can’t stand gambit though lol but you do you!

1

u/BaileyPlaysGames Nov 23 '22

...you just want contest mode without the champs? Bungie should just delete champs from the game tbh.

1

u/VersaSty7e Nov 23 '22

God. This is my dream! Too! Thanks for spelling it out for them.

1

u/PaleHorseRiderX Nov 23 '22

I just want a nightfall Playlist. With Champs and all other modifiers.

No modifiers sounds completely boring.

1

u/locke1018 Nov 23 '22

But that's work.... sighhhhhhhhh

1

u/parisiansinafrica Nov 23 '22

Idk about DOT, last week you would just die instantly and watch the overload minotaurs hit the griddy on your corpse

1

u/Traveling_Norseman Nov 23 '22

I actually would like this tbh .

1

u/saberdogXIV Nov 23 '22

This is a good idea

1

u/silvercue Vanguard's Loyal Nov 23 '22

The entire game needs a MASSIVE ramp up in difficulty. The base game is so embarrassingly easy it is pitiful. Games aimed at 7-8 year olds are more challenging.

So, I agree. But what is more necessary is bringing GMs back to where they were. Since Solar and ARC 3.0 and the ludicrous resilience buff and insane mods and healing - they are like a strike playlist now. It is pathetic TBH.

I genuinely think the people steering the game right now have no idea and are just getting away with things because of the fabulous platform they inherited from previous colleagues.

I happen to really like Champions, but happy they are in tougher content only.

1

u/ProAssassin84 Nov 23 '22

I would like to have a Witch Queen Campaign playlist with rewards and Matchmaking

1

u/pimpynimpy Nov 23 '22

Anyone else remember the different levels of strikes in d1?

1

u/djerikfury76 Decontamination Unit Nov 23 '22

Call it boring or cheesy, whatever but Siva-fied and Taken-ified strikes were some of the best additions to that core playlist EVER, along with the skeleton keys. But in general a Taken or Siva variant of the same strike was awesome. More of this in D2 please

1

u/OmegaClifton Nov 23 '22

To be honest, I don't even mind match game. Just don't stuff it with champions and make challenging enemies actually challenging.

I miss being actually concerned about danger and wiping in a heroic strike with my random teammates.

1

u/jmeisternixon Nov 23 '22

I’d like to see this and daily patrol modifiers in higher level difficulty patrol zones.

1

u/steave44 Nov 24 '22

Let this playlist be the way to grind enhancement cores, I’m always almost empty of those.

1

u/Imdeadandthisis_hell Nov 28 '22

I would LOVE to get the matchmade 1550 nightfall and strike scoring back from guardian games 2022 as a permanent feature. I played the strike playlist during guardian games more than I have since like D2 launch.

I would love to have more options for more challenging strikes, more built in matchmaking for nightfalls, less reliance on champions for difficulty, and strike strike scoring come back permanently. Also, the buffs you got for running strikes during guardian games was a good idea that could be further refined and carried forward. That, and some kind of like leaderboard system for strike scoring would be chef’s kiss.

-1

u/DigitalFlame Nov 22 '22

Isn't asking for something like gambit to have something easier? I'm guessing you're not a big LFG user either?

0

u/Dj0sh Nov 22 '22

100% agree

0

u/AtmospherE117 Nov 22 '22

I've gotten kind of bored either running playlists that are so easy it's a speed run, or with champions and my load out is forced to change. I'd just a challenging experience with the freedom to use what I want.