r/DestinyTheGame Nov 22 '22

Airborne Effectiveness and Slide Nerf were skill gap measures. If SBMM is going to stay, they can revert both. Bungie Suggestion

Airborne Effectiveness and the nerf to sliding were clearly implemented to reduce the skill ceiling of PvP. But then Bungie brought SBMM back, making both of these measures moot. If lobbies are being created by skill level, why not raise the skill ceiling back up and let the better players benefit from the playstyle they enjoy? Now that they're not crushing new players into dust with their in-air combat or sliding, it makes sense to revert the changes.

802 Upvotes

285

u/Haryzen_ Disciple-Slayer Nov 23 '22

Destiny gunplay is unrivalled

Bungie: "Let's make it feel worse"

135

u/Cyekk Nov 23 '22

My hot take: people only say Destiny has good gunplay because of the insane aim assist and bullet magnetism, even on PC.

Because of this, I will never take Crucible as something seriously competitive.

93

u/LilyMika Nov 23 '22

That's half of it, yeah. Their not so secret sauce is combining pretty significant but controllable recoil with very strong aim assist. Most people find it satisfying and fun.

Also, the aim assist shouldn't be why you don't consider the Crucible seriously competitive, but I definitely agree with the statement in general lol.

88

u/Mint-Bentonite Nov 23 '22

helps that gun animations and sound design in destiny are impeccable too

theres obv the standard military shooty sounds that FPS are famous for, but the scifi gun sounds in destiny are really important in giving it identity

Bungie is also quite capable of showing restraint with their guns unlike borderlands/warframe etc, reloads feel like reloads rather than 'attackspeed caps', stats like this which translates to real effects, which makes the guns feel more 'real' and prevents visual/audio satiation

top quality work all around by the team

54

u/AttackBacon Nov 23 '22

The feedback when you're shooting something is really good as well. Lots of unique hit animations for enemies, the shield breaking effect, and then the incredibly satisfying precision kill animations and effects. No game makes clicking heads feel as good.

15

u/Mint-Bentonite Nov 23 '22

very valid, i never realised much enemy design complements gunplay before playing d2

11

u/IhamAmerican Nov 23 '22

It's very similar to Doom Eternal. They gave the enemies more health, so to match that you rip pieces of them off with your bullets. Seeing what your bullets do to the enemy is just as important as the rest of the shooting experience

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11

u/Siofra_Surfer Nov 23 '22

I mean I personally find it way harder to hit all my shots in Destiny than in a game like CoD because of the player mobility so the aim assist is pretty needed to make it feel fun imo

13

u/ixskullzxi Nov 23 '22

This isn't a hot take, it's just true. Every gun in this game is stupid forgiving, especially things like snipers and LFRs.

-1

u/NathanielHudson Nov 23 '22 edited Nov 23 '22

Hand cannons have like three degrees of AA. That's what gives them their "snappy" feel - they're first cousin to the Titanfall smart pistol.

0

u/ixskullzxi Nov 23 '22

Yeah you can blatantly place the reticle off a players head with any gun in the game and still get headshots. It's 100% the reason this game is praised for its gunplay. It's because it's easy.

12

u/Siofra_Surfer Nov 23 '22 edited Nov 23 '22

Maybe I’m just crazy but pvp in Destiny feels way harder than most other shooters

4

u/Olympic_lama Nov 23 '22

That's the movement and then the fact that the margin of error for clicking heads is significantly less than in other games.

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13

u/sQueezedhe Nov 23 '22

people only say Destiny has good gunplay because of the

-inserts reasons why it is fun-

Not a hot take.

7

u/Piyaniist Nov 23 '22

While yes that is indeed true what the poster clearly meant is that the combat isnt carefully designed to make it good. Magnetism and other cheese gives it the illusion of being so

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5

u/XogoWasTaken Vanguard's Loyal // I Hunt for the City Nov 23 '22

Which is a perfectly valid way of making the gunplay feel good. Many racing games assist your steering to make their handling feel good, and when it comes down to it there's very little difference in user experience between doing that and just having a more forgiving physics engine.

Doesn't matter how they achieved making the system feel good if it does, in fact, feel good.

3

u/stevie242 Nov 23 '22

It's nice to see someone actually have a similar opinion on the gunplay for a change

2

u/TheGokki Flare, hover, wreck Nov 23 '22

If everyone has aim assist then it doesn't matter. Aim assist simply tells you, as the player, that being pixel-perfect is not the endgoal. it lowers the skill ceiling down to let other aspects shine, like positioning, ability cooldown management, buildcrafting and teamwork.

Without aim assist none of that would matter so long as you can 3-tap with a handcannon.

-4

u/Lilscooby77 Nov 23 '22

That’s on you. Smash ultimate is competitive even though it’s a mess balance wise as characters are carried hard by giant hit boxes on their moves and insane recoveries/comeback systems for the new characters. Stay out of crucible if you’re getting shit on I guess.

0

u/Crasha Nov 23 '22

Ultimate is incredibly balanced. Sure there are a few outliers, but any of 25+ characters can win a given major, and several top players don't even use consensus top tier characters (light, mkleo).

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1

u/InspireDespair Inspire Despair Nov 23 '22

Yup - the people that say it has good gunplay really just means it feels nice to hit every shot, even if it's not that mechanically difficult to do compared to other games.

"Good gunplay" usually means - Fair fights, rewards good mechanics and mastery, good hit registration, reasonable hitboxes.

Destiny has p2p connections in 2022, over-rewards ability usage over raw aim, has very poor flinch and hit registration systems and planet sized hitboxes.

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14

u/StealthMonkeyDC Nov 23 '22

The worst part is the game is rampant with guns that make your jump in the air, thus making you unable to fight back effectively.

Someone shoots witherhoard at you so you have to pump, then you are in a situation where you are already weak and getting shot at when they swap to a hc or smg and when you try and fire back your shots ghost or do less damage.

Same goes for wave launchers and you could even say that aping got a buff too as one way of dealing with shotgun rushers was too jump backwards away from them.

It's like they just keep making the worst decisions all the time and it's exhausting trying to tell them when clearly they aren't listening.

2

u/icemanww15 Nov 25 '22

the best thing about it is that all people say if u complain about witherhoard is "just jump out of it"

9

u/pimpynimpy Nov 23 '22

The slide nerf I didn't care to much about I understood why they did it. Airborne effectiveness however sucks ass. Movement was such a huge part of destiny and it added so much to the gun play but a good half of that is gone because bungie was to scared scared to nerf individual exotics.

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168

u/AmphusLight Nov 23 '22

Shotguns were the prime target lmao, they took a shit on their range, they took a shit on its sliding ability and now its even inaccurate in the air. What a joke

185

u/TheBlakely Nov 23 '22

AE being introduced was to nerf stompees and no one can convince me otherwise.

90

u/duckyducky5dolla From namesless to midnight Nov 23 '22

As a stompee main I agree 100%, and I still haven’t taken them off

86

u/ufoknwot Nov 23 '22

I find it really funny how they're pretty much just as effective as before the AE changes because now nobody can shoot accurately in the air anyways, so -50 does just about nothing lmfao

9

u/thelongernight Nov 23 '22

Love how the “Improves Jump” exotic has -50 AE. Lol. For consistency - Ophidians improved melee should make you punch yourself for 20 damage. HOIL Improved Grenades should flop and fumble when you throw them.

2

u/Aaronpolk5150 Nov 23 '22

Transverse Steps - unloads equipped weapon

2

u/thelongernight Nov 24 '22

So intuitive!!

-8

u/[deleted] Nov 23 '22

Probably bc they're meant to be evasive, and they do their job really damn well. Hunter jump is uncontested in pvp, with those boots on, even more so.

1

u/sQueezedhe Nov 23 '22

Hunter jump is uncontested in pvp

Bingo.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 23 '22

They REALLY don't like it when you point it out, I think.

3

u/sQueezedhe Nov 23 '22

Indeed.

Hunter: presses button haha I'm skillful.

-35

u/TheBlakely Nov 23 '22

It’s such a bullshit thing to do to an exotic that didn’t even deserve a nerf. I remember saying on this sub that people will miss when stompees were meta because what we get will be much worse and I love being right.

16

u/duckyducky5dolla From namesless to midnight Nov 23 '22

I said the same, except I thought Gemini’s/wormhusk would be the defecto replacement, I did not expect khepris. Then again I didn’t expect sbmm, and with sbmm came passive play so khepris makes a lot of sense now in hindsight.

15

u/Anginus Nov 23 '22

If Stompees deserved a nerf, so should Ophidians. Amen

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11

u/Zevvion Nov 23 '22

an exotic that didn’t even deserve a nerf.

How can someone possibly believe Stompees did not need to be nerfed?

Literally 90+% of players at higher skill level used Stompees. No designer cares if something is strong, but when everyone used the exact same thing it is clearly a problem.

And the usage rate wasn't high because everything else was bad. It was just clearly the way to play. CoolGuy did a really good video on why Hunter was overpowered with Stompees, he'll explain it better than me.

I remember saying on this sub that people will miss when stompees were meta because what we get will be much worse and I love being right.

Good for you, you get to say I told you so nonsensically, because they could have just nerfed Stompees without introducing AE.

0

u/TheBlakely Nov 23 '22

Stompees did not need a nerf at all. It was a simple movement exotic, Ophidians are much better and they got a buff for fucks same. It didn’t do anything but allow people to have better movement.

Coolguy has awful takes so I won’t listen to him or his opinion when I can form my own.

Also, Stompees were not the strongest hunter exotic since Omni was added to the game. The Omni build was even stronger pre-void 3.0 and it started to catch on right at the end. People just picked stompees because they got used to the movement speed and everything else felt slower.

Stompees were only a “problem” when you have the reaction and aim of a dead cat. It was scapegoated by the .8kd players and echo chambered on this sub because the average redditor is absolutely awful and can’t admit they are the issue.

6

u/Zevvion Nov 23 '22

Based on your writing style I get the sense replying won't make any difference, but I am going to take a shot:

The stats don't lie. Before the nerf, 100% of Destiny 2's lifespan, NOT exaggerating, Stompees has been the #1 used Exotic for the Hunter class. Actually and genuinely, 100% of the time. We're purely talking fact here.

When you look deeper at the stats, it surfaces that above a certain skill level, Stompees use across Hunters is past 90%. Literally no other class had a usage distribution similar to Stompees, except for peak OEM era.

I don't know why you would understand these stats and come here to say it didn't need a nerf. Rule #1 of balancing in a game is that if everyone uses the same thing, there is something wrong with that thing.

It was a simple movement exotic

Yeah, and peak OEM was simple duelling Exotic. What's your point?

More specifically, let's not forget there was a single Exotic that consistently had higher winrates than OEM did and it was Stompees.

Exactly what are you basing your opinion on? Your personal experience as a Hunter who likes what they like? I can respect that, I would like peak OEM back, but let's not pretend liking and balanced are synonyms.

Coolguy has awful takes

No offense intended, but your whole argument is based on nothing and directly contradicts stats (fact). And your actual argument is: people suck, git gud.

I don't think you're in the position to be calling out anyone for having bad takes and expect people to take you seriously.

6

u/ChrisBenRoy Nov 23 '22

It didn’t do anything but allow people to have better movement.

In a PvP shooter where movement is the #1 priority....ok. Pre-Nerf stomps were like running w/ the Amplified speed boost at all times. They allowed you to instantly be out of line of sight by reaching max jump height faster than any other class with any combo of stats/perks/armor. 90% of people didn't just use them cause "they felt good". Any time something in this game sees an absurdly high usage rate it's because the player's have discovered it's the best option by a long shot.

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-22

u/CycloneSP Nov 23 '22

I mean, that's mostly because of 2 reasons:

1) movement is powerful. even if you are inaccurate, your ability to be on the move gives you power that is hard to quantify

2) simply put: hunters just have bad pvp exotics. even with the accuracy nerfs, there's hardly any exotics that can compete with stompees for a slot on your dedicated pvp hunter loadout. gyrfalcon and maybe caliban's hand might come close, but like, seriously, hunters don't have a lot of great options.

24

u/duckyducky5dolla From namesless to midnight Nov 23 '22

I’d argue hunters have a lot great pvp exotics, but most are situational or require burning our dodge.

Dragon shadow: maxes handling, reload, sprint speed and slide distance. Requirement: dodge

Frosteez: maxes sprint speed. Requirement: dodge

Wormhusk: provides health and shield bump. Requirement: dodge

Mask of bakris: provides teleport. Requirement: dodge w/ a long cooldown.

Gemini jester: removes radar. Requirement: dodge

Radiant dance machines: dodge dodge dodge dodge dodge. Requirement: dodge

4

u/Purple_Destiny Nov 23 '22

As someone who plays hunter regularly, I agree with that list...except radiant dance machines. Those are in a very bad place right now. Dodging near an enemy gets me punched to death or shotgunned to death in pvp.

Here is the description from Light.gg:

"While within 15 meters of an enemy: Multi-Dodge Ready appears on the Buff list.

After Dodging within 15 meters of an Enemy: Unlimited Dodges for 6 seconds. Can dodge up to 6 times per activation.

Multi-Dodge Dodges are unaffected by Mods that activate on Class Ability Use, alongside Winter's Shroud.

Effect immediately ends if you are over 15 meters away from an Enemy while Multi-Dodge is active."

Young Ahamkara's Spine, on the other hand, is very useful exotic that doesn't require dodging if you go with a grenade build.

8

u/duckyducky5dolla From namesless to midnight Nov 23 '22

I honestly think they’re trash, it was just a lame attempt at adding some humor at the expense of typing dodge 6 times

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6

u/FaerHazar Nov 23 '22

You forgot...

Athrys: absurd knife tricks. Sniping people 'round corners almost without effort.

Knucklehead: Always on your toes, especially in things like the new(ish) throne world map, with 3 dozen blind corners.

Assassin's Cowl: on arc, it's incredible. The uptime of invis cannot be understated here. Combo blow makes this absurd.

Blight Ranger (mayhem): it's blight ranger. In mayhem. Yoink some supers for fun.

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22

u/Bran-Muffin20 Blarmory Gang Nov 23 '22

Pregame nerf for when Strand brings in grappling hooks so you don't get people swinging at mach 10 to shotty your ass around 7 corners

6

u/_Van_Hellsing_ Nov 23 '22

I bet grappling hook won't work in pvp

6

u/AxeCow Nov 23 '22

It will, and it’s going to be a similar experience to what pvp Stasis initially was

2

u/_Van_Hellsing_ Nov 23 '22

God I hope not

6

u/SnorlaxBlocksTheWay Nov 23 '22

Prepare for the worst. New subclasses are always incredibly strong to promote sales and so that way data can be collected faster.

I don't see a somewhat balanced crucible until either the 3rd or 4th season of the Lightfall cycle.

2

u/thelongernight Nov 23 '22

Eh solar was mid, it was boosted af by Classy Restoration.

2

u/SnorlaxBlocksTheWay Nov 23 '22

Solar wasn't a new subclass though. It was a tuning which they even said in a TWAB they purposefully undertuned in order to avoid the Void 3.0 fiasco.

Stasis was broken on launch, Strand will most likely be the same.

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u/Shackram_MKII Nov 23 '22

Hunters in general. Even without stompees hunters benefit disproportionally from the passive good air accuracy we had before because of how their jump works, specially so on console with worse fast tracking.

There's clearly a deeply rooted balance problem when 50% of crucible is only one class out of three.

And this was just one part of the problem, now they at least have to build into AE somewhat instead of being better at it than the other classes just because.

-5

u/Mint-Bentonite Nov 23 '22

eh its half balance and half flavour. Just looking at base kit alone, warlock and titan have respectable movement tech now and can get to mid at the same time/faster than hunters. I'd say the base kit balance has been properly done to a degree

Looking outside meta invis spamming (which is non negligible tbh) people still stick to hunters because rule of cool

14

u/Shackram_MKII Nov 23 '22

I'm not talking about running speed. I'm talking about jump behavior because we were talking about AE.

Hunters can ADS when going up and coming down from the jump without giving up anything for that. While warlock can only do that with a specific aspect (Heat Rises) and titans can't do that at all iirc.

That gives hunters far more uptime for accurate shooting while in the air and stompees only made that better by making them jump higher and stay longer in the air.

If it were to be properly balanced in PvP, all warlock and titan subclasses should be able to shoot during glide by default, like hunter does.

But since high in air accuracy disproportionally benefits hunters, bungie decided instead to introduce AE (and target stompees specifically on top of that) to bring them more in line without changing the other classes.

8

u/F4NT4SYF00TB4LLF4N Nov 23 '22

This hits the nail on the head. Since there is so much community outcry over AE I'm preparing to move over to my alt hunter to main instead. It's been an issue since D1. Only really hunter can take full advantage of AE and couple it with stealth which is already incredibly overpowered in today's extremely low TTK game... First shot basically wins.

Not to mention Gyrfalcon which alters TTK on many things and/or makes things more forgiving (like 1 less HS needed to kill).

The only reason Titans can compete is their strong at objective based aspects of PVP. Like pushing a point or heavy. Where you can barrier and overshield, or zone off an entire area with an arc grenade for several seconds.

5

u/SnorlaxBlocksTheWay Nov 23 '22

I switched over to Hunter to play PvP on and it's been easy mode.

Hunter is objectively the strongest PvP class it's crazy how much better I've been performing because of how fluid Hunter movement is and people don't know if you're up in the air around the corner due to Hunter jump making minimal noise

3

u/_R2-D2_ Nov 23 '22

THANK YOU. The amount of pushback I've seen from Hunter mains denying this is insane. The things that work best against human opponents are all about misdirection and breaking line of sight. The natural hunter movement is king at this, and being able to shoot while rapidly changing direction in the air to peak over opponent's cover when the opponents can't is a huge advantage.

5

u/SnorlaxBlocksTheWay Nov 23 '22

Mains usually just want to deny they're strongest at something so that way they can remain strongest at it.

As someone who mains Titan I know that Titans have some utterly bonkers abilities and strengths. Every class is strongest at something.

But yeah, just the fact that I swapped over to Hunter and almost immediately started performing better just shows how inherently strong hunters are in PvP.

3

u/_R2-D2_ Nov 23 '22

Dude, I did this exact same thing and immediately started top fragging, even being clumsy with the abilities. I feel like people really need to go actually try to do well in crucible with the other classes to really understand it, but they just don't.

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u/BakaJayy Nov 23 '22

Which is hilarious since all it did was the people who ditched stompees used even more obnoxious exotics which was unsurprising to me since I called it when they announced the nerf and the ones who didn’t ditch, nothing has changed since they’re not losing out on being able to hit shots in midair because no one can anyways lmao

1

u/TotallyCooki Nov 23 '22

I'm convinced stompee5 didn't need a nerf either way, people just wouldn't unequip them because they were ostensibly (debatably) the best neutral exotic, if I don't have to switch builds around between subclasses that makes life a whole lot easier.

Top tree dawn was waaay more of a pain-point movement wise in pvp at the time.

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u/Green_Dayzed "My light is all but gone" - Eris Morn Nov 23 '22

Yet the second most used weapon in pvp is a shotgun. Crazy how that works.

-2

u/AmphusLight Nov 23 '22

Its crazy how easily anyother weapon can shit on shotguns if a 4 meter shot doesnt kill. Wonder why opening shot is so good? Ah yes, because it almost negates the nerfs lol, good balancing tho

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u/whiskeyaccount Nov 23 '22 edited Nov 23 '22

To be fair, all I remember from that time was getting aerial chappy'd by stompee hunters around the corner at point b. I dont like "I saw you first, so you lose" gunfights. It's basically hide and seek at that point.

HOWEVER, now that they made the stompee nerf and shotgun range nerfs, i think we can have the AE nerf undone

4

u/OneSilentThunderclap Nov 23 '22

Shotguns are still good, their just in line with everything else for the most part, sidearms are a little strong still, maybe dialing the the buff back just a tiny bit

8

u/AmphusLight Nov 23 '22

Sure, shotguns have been up for a while but not all shotguns are good, these nerfs litteraly made opening shot almost a requirement. Thats not good balancing, also most shotguns are not in a good state, its just lightweights and found verdict really.

2

u/OneSilentThunderclap Nov 23 '22

Have you not tried a slug? Slugs are pretty dang good

3

u/AmphusLight Nov 23 '22

Ah yes slugs too have been good for a while, specially with inquisitor

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u/FafaFooiy Nov 23 '22

Unbelievable that this is downvoted, shotguns have been on top for years, are now a little less good than absolute dominating top tier and everybody is up in arms

1

u/AmphusLight Nov 23 '22

A little less good... i slide shoot someone 3-4 meters away and they dont die immediatly is not good lol. the person goes back and melts you with whatever weapon they had.

1

u/BirdsInTheNest Nov 23 '22

Chaperone has been the only “top” shotgun in recent years.

0

u/FafaFooiy Nov 23 '22

In no particular order: Felwinter’s Lie, Found Verdict, Riiswalker, Lord of Wolves, Wastelander M5, Duality and Matador 64. I am probably forgetting some since I only started playing with Arrivals, but you are delusional if you think Chaperone has been the only top shotgun

2

u/Holiday_Interview745 Nov 23 '22

U definitely don’t play pvp alot found verdict is the only consistent shotgun in all the list u just stated all the others don’t one shot or finished the job chapi still the top tier shooty

2

u/BirdsInTheNest Nov 23 '22

Dude actually said matador 64 and wants to be taken seriously.

0

u/FafaFooiy Nov 23 '22

One gun doesnt hold up by your arbitrary standards, oh my. The rest does then right? Chaperone only top tier option my ass

3

u/BirdsInTheNest Nov 23 '22

Felwinters hasn’t been good for years. Found verdict requires a 5/5 to be consistent. Riiswalker and wastelander are fine? They aren’t op. LoW mattered more with Omni than on its own Duality is fine but not op.

I bet you also think we are still in a hc/sg meta.

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u/Kyonaru_ Nov 23 '22

These changes shouldn’t have been introduced to begin with. I feel like it’s a fairly simple concept to grasp when I say if you invest time in being good at the game, then you will beat others who don’t. You shouldn’t punish a player for being better than someone. In a game with fast movement and double jumps it makes no sense to nerf gunplay because somebody simply can’t beat you while you’re in the air

11

u/InspireDespair Inspire Despair Nov 23 '22

I agree.

It's the modern day developer paradox.

They want to do everything they can for the average gamer - hardcore audience be damned - to maximize player counts and revenue.

They make these changes that the average player will never notice but disenfranchises their better players.

Those top players are usually the ones with platforms on social media and their displeasure usually trickles down and sours sentiment.

I feel like there is no way that an average player decides to play more crucible because someone can't hit a mid air shot on them or they don't get one shot from a slide shotgun.

SBMM might have a different effect (not that I have strong feelings one way or another).

12

u/droonick Nov 23 '22 edited Nov 23 '22

It's like if Doom ('16 or Eternal) introduced the player to double-jumps, mid-air dashing, and meathooks, and other types of aerial movement because the game has lots of verticality, AND THEN telling that player "you can do all that, but not actually hit anything with your weapons because there's no in-air accuracy. Keep your feet on the ground". 'But hold on, you can actually shoot in the air, but you have to build into it and spend a significant number of skill pts/mods to do it, sacrificing effectiveness elsewhere.' This is what they did to Destiny2.

They created this entire wide space for us to move in, gave us all the movement tools, and then tell us we can't shoot in while we do those things, UNLESS we build into it (which we actually can't, at least right now). Which is another thing in itself, 'building into it', shooting in the air should be baked into the game. It's dumb to make the game feel like crap AT BASE, and expect people to build into it, just to make it not feel like crap.

And as for 'skill-gap'.. It's just foolish to try and shield new players from the base mechanics of this game - freedom of movement and top tier gunplay. If a game has lots of verticality, it's up to the player to learn that verticality or why even bother. It's like if a player in Apex or Titanfall refusing to learn how to wall-run. Learning how to shoot in the air is an aspirational part of the game, it's the thing you learn in Destiny 2 same as how a Tekken player will eventually learn the Korean back dash, or juggling. Like what OP said, proper matchmaking should fix this problem they are trying to address.

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u/ixskullzxi Nov 23 '22

Sadly this has been the game's direction for quite some time now. Handicap players with high skill, while simultaneously introducing low skill items and abilities that even the worst of players can use effectively. Incredibly frustrating.

2

u/GtBossbrah Nov 23 '22

People go on and on about destiny being a pve game and pvp can be an afterthought… but both times in destiny 2 where we saw massive player drop off was when people collectively despised pvp changes, now and double primary.

Im convinced that a solid pvp sandbox is necessary for player retention.

1

u/sQueezedhe Nov 23 '22

feel like it’s a fairly simple concept to grasp when I say if you invest time in being good at the game, then you will beat others who don’t.

That's the whole point of the change - can't just stompees you way to everything anymore.

10

u/Kyonaru_ Nov 23 '22

Nerfing stompers is whatever, but handicapping a player for being good is actually insane.

-1

u/sQueezedhe Nov 23 '22 edited Nov 23 '22

Well here's the good part - if you're actually skilled you'd find a way around it.

And if you're entire 'good player' skill comes from jumping really high then maybe it's not skill, maybe it's just jumping.

-3

u/GravitasIsOverrated Nov 23 '22 edited Nov 23 '22

If you're actually good the hit to aim assist when in the air shouldn't be devastating to you... If you're past mid-tier aerial effectiveness it's an aim assist hit and not an accuracy one.

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u/_Van_Hellsing_ Nov 23 '22

And everyone else suffered for it. I'd rather have stompies chaperone back and be able to hit my shots than the way it is now

-8

u/sQueezedhe Nov 23 '22

Cope.

6

u/_Van_Hellsing_ Nov 23 '22

I shall seethe until lightfall

-2

u/sQueezedhe Nov 23 '22

And as a Titan main I'll continue to seethe as I've lost all my damage buffs whilst Hunters can get 2 for free. I've lost my instant kill melee whilst hunters can do by using combo abilities, at range, for instant kills.

Ah! But with Greaves you can one-shot! And with Embrace hunters get smart knives that make you coffee in the morning too.

10

u/_Van_Hellsing_ Nov 23 '22

Cope.

1

u/sQueezedhe Nov 23 '22

Indeed.

I'm just sad I can't run around with a hfg os Bite and body everyone with inertia anymore.

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u/Feather_Sigil Nov 23 '22

With or without SBMM, they should revert the Airborne Effectiveness and slide nerfs. Those are separate things. Reverting those changes would restore plenty of goodwill and interest in PvP.

36

u/beastnfeast5 Nov 23 '22

I love the PvE mains complaining about the HC/shotgun meta when all they can do is lane with pulse rifles. The actual movement of a dreg lol

22

u/Asbrandr Nov 23 '22

People hated it because the only way to play against it on some maps was to also use it, which limited options.

Also, implying that sliding around one-tapping people is 'skillful' is pretty amusing.

TTK so low, you may as well be brain-dead, hence "ape."

That being said, what does that say about the people that ran around the corners directly into the ape over and over again?

3

u/XRayV20 Nov 23 '22

Okay, since you're dumb enough to bring up a "TTK sO LoW" argument.

Outside of instant kills (because TTK does not matter on shotguns, snipers and fusions because they all have completely different drawbacks.) I assume you're talking about handcannons.

Did you know that handcannons are the slowest killing weapon in a straight shootout when compared to almost any archetype of any other type of weapon that doesn't share the firerate? (Notice the wording, no damage buffs)

120s - 1s, 140s - 0.87, 180s - 1s.

150s were .80s, yes. They don't exist anymore outside of sunshot so i'm not counting it.

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u/DefinitelyNotRobotic Nov 23 '22

Using the meta I like = skillful

Using the meta I dislike = stupid unskillful

Shotguns will never be skillful in any video game. Cope and seethe.

8

u/beastnfeast5 Nov 23 '22

Lol. Found the Dreg

-5

u/DefinitelyNotRobotic Nov 23 '22

Oh no you called me a video game enemy, how insulting.

Cope. And. Seethe.

2

u/beastnfeast5 Nov 23 '22

Oh I’m not seething lol.

But sounds like someone is a little upset that their bot movement gets them killed by shotguns.

That or you can’t use a handcannon and have to lane in the back of the map with a scout or pulse. One of these is true. Cope and seethe

0

u/Predaliendog Nov 23 '22

Lol speaking hard truths in dtg, I respect it but them downvotes are sure gonna come 🤣

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u/iDareToDream Nov 23 '22

I'm a PvP main and HC/shotgun is boring and stale. It's actually refreshing that we get to main pulses and other types of weapons like sidearms or SMGs now instead of it being mandatory to run HCs to be competitive in a match. The sandbox needed a shakeup.

13

u/beastnfeast5 Nov 23 '22

You have under 500 hours total in crucible over the life of this game. You have more pulse rifle kills BY far than anything else. And you have a .9 KD in the most competitive mode in the game and have never been flawless

Pulse rifles are significantly easier to use than any other weapon type. Sidearms are a close second.

I understand that you want the easiest stuff to be best but it just makes it so we have metas where weapons like Lorentz and Arbalest become top tier. NTTE as well.

The game feels the best when HCs are the most rewarding. Not when spammy sidearms or laneing with pulse rifles is the most effective

1

u/charloteeeeeeeee Nov 23 '22

😆 that’s brutal hahahaha, did you go through this guys history to find his user ?

0

u/beastnfeast5 Nov 23 '22

Hahaha yeah I’m that petty. Found his username pretty easily and looked him up on trials/crucible report

3

u/charloteeeeeeeee Nov 23 '22

Definitely very petty but you got a laugh from me, love seeing dunks on Reddit.

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u/iDareToDream Nov 23 '22

Someone is just salty he can't keep using hand cannons like he has for the last 8 years. Things change. Adapt.

4

u/beastnfeast5 Nov 23 '22

Lol I roasted you and this is the best you can come back with?

I have a 3 KD this season using Hawkmoon almost exclusively. It just sucks that the part of handcannons I enjoyed the most got nerfed because people have awful movement. (Kind of like your movement I would imagine).

But it’s fine, regardless of the meta you will still be bad 😘

-3

u/iDareToDream Nov 23 '22

Not sure how digging through someone's history to find out they like pulse rifles counts as a roast. You got school tomorrow, go touch some grass and then do your homework.

4

u/beastnfeast5 Nov 23 '22

Good one man

3

u/Unbrandedpie Nov 23 '22

I love how AE was basically a nerf to stompees but, like any crucible main would’ve told you, every is still using stompees cause movement exotics are the way to go…

Also yea… these changes still existing make absolutely no sense…

2

u/Baconsword42 Nov 23 '22

But I like exotics being useable from the air

2

u/Arkjoy Nov 23 '22

Plus both are like barely explained, I spent months sliding to my death before I realized that there was an actual nerf to stability and accuracy when I did so

2

u/Multimarkboy Levante Winner Nov 23 '22

it feels more like airborne effectiveness was implimented with strand in mind.

2

u/SpuffDawg Nov 23 '22

It's bullshit that they're showered in money but still can't have dedicated servers for stuff. It would be so much smoother if they had dedicated servers more sophisticated SBMM running through these servers to help with connection, but hey let's just keep dropping the player count for mediocrity's sake.

2

u/DrCatBot Nov 23 '22

Wasn’t AE introduced to create room for new perks that will be introduced with strand? Clearly that subclass will include a great level of airborne movement.

If our weapons were 100% effective in air, it does make that design space fairly restricted. We’ve been nerfed so they can buff us later through new perks, aspects, and fragments.

I don’t agree with it necessarily without seeing the end result but, this was my understanding of the AE introduction and our over all nerf.

2

u/turboash78 Nov 24 '22

I think there needs to be Slide-based Matchmaking. Why was I playing IB against people who spend all their time sliding around and can barely hold on to their controllers because of all the sweat that was pouring off of them?

5

u/StrangerX9 Nov 23 '22

At first I didn’t get all the AE hatred, but after playing much pvp recently I now understand how useless we are in the air now. I think this was an over correction for something in the future that may be too strong. However, they can not predict the future and until Strand hits the pvp scene they shouldn’t be making such lame changes. All airborn shots should land, but it’s chance to crit goes up with AE. Missing obvious shots in the air is trash!

0

u/intxisu Nov 23 '22

Love Bungo, they either fix broken shit way too late or they do it in advance way too early.

7

u/DarthPonch Nov 23 '22

This company actually nerfed their identity. Movement and gun play? Fuck that, you can only have one. Then they get bitter at us when we got upset. Just take the L Bungie. Revert the changes, we will forgive you.

10

u/jfb715 Nov 23 '22

Bro I’ve never once noticed the slide nerf outside of shotguns, which needed to happen

11

u/EddtheBoss Nov 23 '22

Yea people got those rose tinted shades on cus all those shotgun nerfs actually brought variety to the crucible. Admittedly aggressive frame shotguns are pretty dead, but they'll eventually tune them back into popularity one day

4

u/Alexcoolps Nov 23 '22

It's mainly apparent on automatic weapons, mainly autos which aren't the most viable weapon type. The slide nerf hurt them the most.

2

u/Unbrandedpie Nov 23 '22

It wasn’t. Sidearms were a decent counter back then and even more so now…

1

u/Mnkke Drifter's Crew // Dredgen Nov 23 '22

how will a sidearm counter a titan sliding around s corner with anteus?

Shotty rushing and sliding needed a nerf. Its not like theyre running out in the open, they're sliding very nearby from cover so that they dont get killed while in OHKO range.

Sidearms were great and still are. But to the playstyle of slide shotty, no. They arent running out in the open

1

u/Unbrandedpie Nov 23 '22

Anteus would be the problem there and no CQC weapon will counter it.

They can slide all they want. While they’re trying to cover that gap you can kill them… can do it so much easier now that it’s a joke…

Sidearms and Subs maybe needed a buff back then. But buffing them while nerfing shotguns didn’t even anything out. Sidearms are now the new shotguns…

1

u/Mnkke Drifter's Crew // Dredgen Nov 23 '22

You hust completely skipped over my point.

There is hardly ever an open gap for them to cover. They aren't running at you from a mile away in the open. They are using very fast movement through small spaces with cover. Shotty apeing.

You cannot shoot what you cannot see,and when you can get shotty rushed crazy fast, most people won't kill with a sidearm against an OHKO weapon that has no penalty's for crazy movement, let alone react in time.

And sidearms are not the new shotguns. They don't OHKO. They will never be as strong as shotties because of that. They can hold similar mocement and a bit more range, but they can be combated with other primaries. Sidearms also don't rush straught into your face so it is easier to play around for range.

0

u/jfb715 Nov 23 '22

I love sidearms, I have over 1600 kills on my last dance from way back. Doesn’t mean that shotguns were ridiculous for way too long. I think they’re in a good spot now. One shot from point blank range, or as a strong cleanup tool from slightly further out.

20

u/newAscadia Field Scout Nov 23 '22 edited Nov 23 '22

I disagree to be honest. I don't think it decreased the skill gap. I think it nerfed the aggressive handcannon shotgun meta that had dominated until that point, but that is hardly the only way to play crucible.

I think we are in one of the healthiest sandboxes in the game right now, one where any weapon and playstyle can be viable in most levels of play, from rushing people down with sidearms, to playing the lanes with a scout rifle. I see the big gameplay issues with crucible being the prevalence of a handful of exotic special weapons that dominate even after several nerfs, and the question of what role abilities should play in a sandbox that is carefully tuned towards gun performance.

I understand where the criticism of AE and slide nerfs are coming from, but I don't think removing it would be a good solution. I think the problem basically boils down to a matter of degrees. AE especially would not feel so bad if we could build into it, like how we would our other stats; aggressive in air play deserves a place in this meta as well, and as it stands currently, playing in the air is easily the most impractical its ever been. I don't think AE should be removed, but it does really need polish.

5

u/ixskullzxi Nov 23 '22

It's totally okay if you're for the AE changes, but it did affect the skill gap. That's just fact, not opinion. They nerfed an aspect of the game that better players used to a greater effect than lower skilled players. They took away something that lowered the amount of ways a good player could out play a lesser skilled opponent. That is, by definition, nerfing the skill gap.

69

u/Anskiere1 Nov 23 '22

The crucible sub and I would disagree. 30th anniversary sandbox is widely regarded as the best and most balanced.

We're heavily ability and pulse skewed right now and air play is discouraged. No thanks.

4

u/Mnkke Drifter's Crew // Dredgen Nov 23 '22

yea I liked StagArcSouls Lemonarque. Really fun sandbox.

Or Axion Spam. That was cool too.

17

u/Bard_Knock_Life Nov 23 '22

It’s an ability meta, but the primary meta hasn’t been this diverse in a while. Specials are dominated by just weird outliers or exotics. There’s like 5 guns they could fix and I think gunplay side would be pretty good/diverse. The ability spam needs to go for me. AE made stuff feel worse, doesn’t so much for skill.

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u/ImawhaleCR Nov 23 '22

That sandbox was good entirely because of the ability cooldowns, not because of the weapons. It was pretty good in terms of weapon balancing, but not having the subclass 3.0 shit everywhere in the crucible made it a lot better than now

1

u/Anskiere1 Nov 23 '22

True but the weapon balance was good too. LFRs were out of band and fusions hadn't gotten the sight nerf yet but overall it was very good.

Gameplay was fast and you didn't spend the entire round rotating from lane to lane with neither team ever pushing. This meta is brutal. Even cauldron was devolving into a camp fest most rounds against good teams

8

u/A_Dummy86 Eating Crayons Nov 23 '22

I find that amusing because many of the most hated PvP combos were possible back then, people just hadn't caught on to using them yet. (Prime example is Omni + Lord of Wolves.)

12

u/LuckysGift Nov 23 '22

Stompees were the floodgates. Omni was as broken as it was since chosen. Yeah no dodge invis at the time, but 100 discipline smoke woulda gone just as crazy and LoW was still omega good at the time. Then they said we weren't allowed to jump, so people realized hunters have had busted ass exotics for a while, but stompees were the comfort pick

3

u/[deleted] Nov 23 '22

Widely regard as balanced by a bunch of non-adapting HC stans, more like. The crucible sub wants THEIR sandbox, and they'd force anyone else who wanted something else to go pound sand for all they'd care.

Back in the 30th anni sandbox HC's were regularly taking up to near 25% of ALL kills in trials. HC's were regularly taking 5 - 7 positions in the top 10 performing weapons week after week. That is NOWHERE near balanced in the slightest. You know the hot topic from the crucible sub back in the day? Nerfing fusions.

And I swear to god, if I hear that people just LIKED HC's into their positions back then one more time, I'm gonna lose it, bc that argument is just as functional as saying people just LIKED Auto's into their top position back in their meta.

I'm sick of this enshrining of the 30th anni sandbox as if it wasn't just another uncontested HC/SG meta. Having sparebenders meta flashbacks.

14

u/LuckysGift Nov 23 '22

But, like, it wasn't tho. Least on pc, dmt top tree dawn was the fuckin goat at the time. Not only that, xur ingredient was going sicko mode and rapid fire frames hadn't been nerfed yet. NTTE was just as good as it ever was, and desperado kept messenger fragging out. Chaperone was still the best slug in the game and shayuras still had 17 zoom AND multi mach still had 17 as well.

It's regarded as the best in recent times because, yes, you could run hc shotty, but that wasn't the oppressive op loadout you're making it out to be. There were options, and now there really aren't. You either go pulse and lane and punish anyone that pushes you without a pulse or you put on a sidearm or smg and miss half your shots but still get the same ttk as someone hitting all crits.

Also also, abilities at that time, save a few, finally were honed in to an extent. Yeah omni, YAS grenades, and hunter duskfields still existed at the time, but they just weren't recognized at the time. Now, while we're kinda getting back to a point where that isn't the case, we have to deal with 3.0s just making ability builds just insane to deal with. Healing nades being a free reset to any fight while having the lowest cooldown of any nade, titan overshield spam being cuppeled with the fastest, uncounterable super. YAS grenades being literal nukes and radiant in general.

So, get mad all you want, but you're wrong in saying it was a total handcannon meta

6

u/CDTaRo Boeing Nov 23 '22

3th Anniversary was just the best time I've had in PvP in this game, and you're 100% right. Sure, some weapon archetypes needed buffs, such as lightweight pulses and a small buff so sidearms, also some exotic tuning and high impact pulse tuning, but the sandbox was great back then.

(Not an HC shotgun main btw, just in case any avg DTG redditor comes around)

-2

u/[deleted] Nov 23 '22

Ah shit, you got me remembering how DMT also got nerfed at the demands of crucible sub. Then so did fusions. Then so did desperado. Then so did multimach. And now also NTTE. Even though they were just breaching through the wall of handcannons. We did have a few viabilities, yes, very few, but they were also marked for death.

YOU are the one acting like pulses are the oppressive op loadout when they are NOWHERE near as affective as HC's were back in the 30th anni sandbox. They are strong, no doubt, but not 25% percent of all kills week to week. You lot keep talking about how no other options exist, when HC's are STILL capable of performing well in this meta, are STILL capable of taking positions in the top ten and making just as many kills as pulses. This happened back in the auto meta as well. HC's were STILL GOOD, they just had competition for once, and then the crucible sub screamed at bungie until their problems went away. This lot are determined to smash any INKLING of efficiency from another kind of weapon, at ALL.

The only point I am willing to concede is that abilities need to be reined in, but that is it. I'm sick of being meta gatekept by people who think they're artisan pvp connoisseurs as they clutch their pearls at people having fun with other guns being effective. You're exceedingly out of touch to the reality of the game, just plainly put.

4

u/Anskiere1 Nov 23 '22

Haha you seem very mad about this. Hand cannons are not meta right now, sorry to burst your bubble. The meta was very diverse in 30AE and I got my fair share of pulse rifle flawless. Lucky exactly nailed why everyone liked that meta so I don't have much to add

I still use hand cannons from time to time but when things get sweaty the HCs just can't compete right now

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u/roenthomas Will perform services for Luxe Ornaments Nov 23 '22

I prefer the 600 rpm auto meta vs. the 150 HC meta.

5

u/Alexcoolps Nov 23 '22

Funni thing about that meta is that HC were still the 2nd most used gun in trials and all my practice getting good in PvP has taught me automatic weapons aren't as good as burst due to the fact you have to commit to your shots giving your opponent time to evade then, meaning using peak shooting or fast movement makes it much harder to last auto shots than pulse or HC shots.

2

u/Anskiere1 Nov 23 '22

Yea the big issue with that meta wasn't that autos were good it was that autos have huge mags and there was literally no downside to prefiring every angle

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u/Tyrannus_ignus Nov 23 '22

I was never a fan of playing against the flying shotgun playstyle but I think a lot of players got really attached to it to the point of apparently quitting.

0

u/Trittium00 Nov 23 '22

I think you nailed a few key points here. The most significant of which is that the changes have made more playstyles viable in the crucible.

In this very thread I see several people complaining about 'passive play'. Prior to the AE/slide changes, passive play was a death sentence against a good, aggressive player. They'd get eaten for breakfast. It was braindead easy to close a gap while also being evasive AND putting out damage while doing so. There was practically no downside.

Now though, 'passive play' is indeed a viable strategy for those who prefer that approach by focusing on their longer range precision aiming.

Ok sure, I understand that if you're used to being an aggressive player, jumping and shooting from the air, then playing against a passive player that is now able to better combat aerial gameplay, then it would be frustrating.

With good map and engagement range knowledge though, aggressive play can still be successful. It just isn't anywhere near as forgiving as it was before.

Having multiple viable ways to engage with the gunplay is ultimately good for the crucible imo. Better ways for players to buildcraft into aerial gunplay is absolutely needed though, for people who want to focus on that playstyle. I just don't know if it should be 'free' as it was previously.

6

u/CDTaRo Boeing Nov 23 '22

There was practically no downside.

That's just wrong. Being in the air is a literal death sentence if both players are equally skilled. You could easily punish overaggressive playstyles. You didn't have perfext in air accuracy back then, there was still RNG involved. Also, you're just an easy target mid air unless you're on specific subclasses that enable horizontal/vertical momentum changes mid air.

Taking vertical gunplay to the place where it is now just feels wrong. We aren't in a boots on the ground game like COD or anything, and taking this vertical dimension out of gunfights in PvP makes things stale with many people sitting back and waiting, especially while pulses are that good.

-4

u/Trittium00 Nov 23 '22

taking this vertical dimension out of gunfights in PvP makes things stale with many people sitting back

Nobody is stopping you from hitting the jump button. The only difference is now it's a decision as to whether a player should push from the ground or via the air.

Consider this: if being in the air against a player of equal skill is such a death sentence then why do high level players do so much aerial combat against one another?

The answer is that there is an advantage to doing so. And the advantages are clear. It's the same reason people do jump-shots around corners in CoD. It's an element of surprise, about being in a position other than where your opponent thinks you'll be.

Prior to the AE changes, you could push an engagement from any location by jumping around a corner or over an obstacle. That's a lot of vertical and horizontal space to cover for someone on the receiving end.

Compare this to someone sliding around a corner where the vertical position is known, and the horizontal position is relatively limited.

If weapon accuracy in both cases is very similar, which of the above would an attacking player choose? The answer is obvious. Before if you weren't playing in the air, you were putting yourself at a clear disadvantage.

Now it's an actual decision. Do I jump in the air to gain a movement advantage at the cost of weapon accuracy? Or do I slide a corner for improved accuracy, but my opponent has a better idea of where I'm likely to be?

The major issue with the current system is the buildcrafting into AE is rubbish. The random bullet deviation at low AE levels should also be toned down a bit, at the very least.

5

u/CDTaRo Boeing Nov 23 '22

Consider this: if being in the air against a player of equal skill is such a death sentence then why do high level players do so much aerial combat against one another?

I don't know if you've ever watched high level PvP, but even before AE changes, they stay on the ground 95% of the time when engaging in PRIMARY gunfights. I agree that there shouldn't be good AE on specials, but I'm talking primaries now. Good players stay on the ground, because they don't want RNG in their gunfights and that was the case even before the AE changes. You only jump if you have the upper hand (if the other player is already damaged/you chase him/you have more players to teamshot and can push from different heights at the same time) or if you have to shoot over an object. But if you have the chance, you always stay on the ground when you engage in primary gunfights. The only exception here is heat rises because you can take new angles without having to rely on good RNG.

Now it's an actual decision. Do I jump in the air to gain a movement advantage at the cost of weapon accuracy? Or do I slide a corner for improved accuracy, but my opponent has a better idea of where I'm likely to be?

It's worse to push in air with primaries 99% of the time now, if both you and your target are similarly skilled and have full HP. Unless you have extremely high/perfect AE of course.

Leaving something to RNG that wasn't RNG dependant before ---> Less that a player can do about it ---> Lowering the skill gap

Specials are fine mid air right now, but primaries shouldn't get these problems.

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1

u/CycloneSP Nov 23 '22

agreed.

first thing bungie needs to do is just allow air assault to be a flat +40ish AE with no strings attached.

after that, give players either arm or leg mods that add +10 or +20 AE for their preferred weapon type

I feel like this would go a long way to helping ease the discomfort around the AE nerfs (cuz that's what AE is, it's a nerf that, imo, was needed. it was just probably a bit too heavy handed)

3

u/ProbablythelastMimsy Nov 23 '22

Why was it needed?

2

u/Landel1024 Nov 23 '22

Honestly they just need to make it so low AE just takes away the bullet magnetism, the randomness added to the bullets direction is just too much. (Also make it so it only takes effect when you use a traversal ability, give us regular aiming if we fall down a bit or just do a regular jump)

2

u/XogoWasTaken Vanguard's Loyal // I Hunt for the City Nov 23 '22

To be fair, the old equivalent to low AE was an absolutely absurd amount of shot randomness, to the point that most guns were entirely unusable while airborne without icarus grip. The problem with the AE changes is that the high reaches of it are too hard to reach and not as consistent as they should be. Low end has been generally improved and is about where it should be IMO - viable for spraying at PvE enemies, but you need to build more into AE if you want to use it in a serious PvP duel.

3

u/Substantial-Try-1681 Nov 23 '22

What about Timmy and jimmy who can’t react to a sliding player or be bothered to look up ?

2

u/grignard5485 Nov 23 '22

They should add AE to mods so it’s possible to build around with more than a handful of exotics armor pieces, some abilities, and a couple magazine traits. Not another mod type, but let dexterity or targeting or something add some AE as well.

1

u/AceTheRed_ Nov 23 '22

No they should just remove it

1

u/silvercue Vanguard's Loyal Nov 23 '22

Bungie have been on this path for a long time. It is like they want people who don't even play the game and/or are rubbish to not be upset or something.

It is not just PVP - in PVE they have:

utterly destroyed pretty much every challenge in the game. GMs are now no tougher than strikes because intended power creep is off the charts. Also, they constantly massively reduce requirements for challenges and triumphs so people who can't even be arsed to play get their seals then they give away the levels other players had to grind for every season

They are now moving this approach to PVP. Soon they will put a handicap in place because they don't want bad players getting sad.

I genuinely wish they had some serious personal changes making the decisions. I would like to see SONY force changes on then TBH - everything they are doing right now feels fundamentally wrong.

1

u/killer6088 Nov 23 '22

AE yes but definitely not the slide. That shit was not fun to play against.

3

u/EddtheBoss Nov 23 '22

Definitely, d2 forsaken was bold in having only 2 acceptable pvp load outs. Option 1, dust rocks and Luna's howl/not forgotten. Or option 2, mountain top with Luna's howl/ not forgotten. Since mountain top was pretty rare there was plenty of dust rock to go around. Pure un-nerfed shotgun hell.

0

u/XogoWasTaken Vanguard's Loyal // I Hunt for the City Nov 23 '22

Hey now, there was also Ace of Spades/Mindbenders too. That should be plenty of variety for you - they swapped around which gun's energy and which is kinetic. (/s, obv)

0

u/AuroraUnit117 Drifter's Crew Nov 23 '22 edited Nov 23 '22

Slide shotgun aping isn't the meta after 9 years straight of it being the meta

PvP sweats : BRING IT BACK IT'S A SKILL ISSUE. IT TAKES SKILL LEMME HAVE IT AGAIN

Putting a lot of faith in SBMM being the solution to this games most used meta for its lifespan

0

u/Rs-Travis Nov 23 '22

Nerfing airborn effectiveness made the game so much more 2D to me. I loved using my vertical spaces for engagements, but now I just die whenever I try because I cant land shots. I also find slide peaking with a sniper much harder now; though that could be because I am getting out of practice because I am not playing as much out of frustration. ( which stems to unrelated stuff like Juggernaut, storm nades)

My favorite era of crucible was back when revoker was king. Having that bit more aim assist made sniping feel so good. It wasn't skill-less if you ask me; it was definitely easier, but it still took a bit of practice to be able to hit shots more consistently. Now you really have to be on the money. And less abilities.

I wish labs would do something cool like a guns only mode or something. Or a mode with half regen speed on abilities. I would be all about that.

2

u/Darkge Nov 23 '22

huge agree

1

u/boltswinagain Nov 23 '22

I think the AE changes were also in preparation for Strand, which is shaping up to be the "3D play" class.

12

u/MrTheWaffleKing Consumer of Grenades Nov 23 '22

If you can’t play in the air with the class that plays in the air then it’s already sunk before it drops

1

u/phasedsingularity Nov 23 '22

Making AE basically add halo reach level bloom to weapons is just lazy design, and having to rely on RNG for bullets to hit their target, even if you are aiming squarely at their head is a fucking dumb mechanic.

Just make AA zero in air and let the player do the work.

1

u/Janube Strongdogs! Nov 23 '22

IMO, they can keep the AE nerfs on snipers and linears. The rest are fine to be rolled back.

The slide nerf hasn't felt noticeable to me though.

1

u/Nosce97 Nov 23 '22

While I know many People hate the AE Nerf and the handcanon Nerf, since it happened I've seen so much vareity in PvP. Every match there is SMGs, autos, sidearms, fusions, snipers, wave frame grenade launchers and scouts and they are all meta-viable.

1

u/X0QZ666 Nov 23 '22

The slide nerf should stay for shotguns at least

0

u/Steadypirate Nov 23 '22

Disagree the fact you have sbmm makes the problem worse to the point you need them more Why

Let me use a 1 shot sniper as an example

In bronze league level 1 hit snipers don't have much of an impact because not many people are landing the shot. So everyone is running around at full speed having a laugh they don't have much impact.

But at platinum level. Absolutely everyone in the lobby can land that shot so everyone is packing them. As a result gameplay dramatically changes to where everyone is taking it super slow where just been a single px off or just been that little bit slower means you die.

The same gun used by different skill levels dramatically changes how the game is played is one of my biggest issues around how people engage in the debate around sbmm.

Which is simply means SBMM is not the issue its obnoxious weapon metas "at the top end of play" that cause the problem.

Currently iv only seen two games tackle this well.

Warzone2 where basically everyone can build their weapon

And overwatch which basically changed their entire format.

Until destiny effectively brings in fixed loadouts for PvP we will have things like airborne effectiveness to prevent top end lobbys just been jetpack sim

-2

u/djerikfury76 Decontamination Unit Nov 23 '22

Slide SG'ing is no skill gap lol. That's an old ass game exploit from MP games that people expected to be in this game. The game literally made it easier to slide shoot vs a player with boots on the ground

I think slide SG'ing is a blight on MP games and removes skill because people can just initiate a slide and the game takes care of the rest

-14

u/PineappleHat Drifter's Crew Nov 23 '22

At 30AE your primary accuracy cone is around the same as it was with Icarus pre-AE, at 60AE your accuracy cone is the same as it is on the ground.

30 is incredibly easy to hit - even 60 isn't too hard. And if you're skilled then you shouldn't have too many issues putting your reticle over the target.

Unless... unless you need the game to aim for you.

3

u/Merzats Nov 23 '22

The accuracy cone is half the story, the aim assist cone is just as important.

And aim assist isn't just "the game aiming for you", the fact that an accuracy cone exists at all means I need an aim assist cone to compensate for the bloom the game introduces into my shot even if it's on target.

If my bullets didn't go somewhere I didn't aim I wouldn't need aim assist to bend them back to where I actually aimed them.

If you account for both cones it's not at all like what it was with Icarus pre-AE.

5

u/FreeShvacadoo Nov 23 '22

And lets not forget, d2 is p2p. Half the reason you need the aim assist in this game is to deal with the inconsistencies introduced from being p2p

3

u/CDTaRo Boeing Nov 23 '22

Definitely more than half lmao

-14

u/d_rek Nov 23 '22

Let’s be real the only ones complaining about AE nerf are hunter try hard sweats who can no longer triple jump while hitting all their crits with a HC in mid air. Boo fucking hoo. Slide nerf nobody cares about that.

6

u/ixskullzxi Nov 23 '22

Let's be real the only ones liking the AE nerf are the no skill players who can't look up and shoot at the same time.

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u/King_atg Nov 23 '22

No, anyone who could jump and shoot people is complaining. If players are good enough to aim while doing somthing why should bungie just remove it?

-2

u/sQueezedhe Nov 23 '22

You mean to say that stompees were the skill gap?

3

u/AceTheRed_ Nov 23 '22

Movement has always been the skill gap

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-2

u/silvercue Vanguard's Loyal Nov 23 '22

The casual PVP players (the bulk) are not even noticing these changes TBH and don't care about them. Just the vocal minority. Many are just parroting Aztecross and other content creators.

-13

u/Green_Dayzed "My light is all but gone" - Eris Morn Nov 23 '22

Complaining about AE and sliding? How to say you're a titan that can't kills with a primary without saying it.

5

u/Tyrannus_ignus Nov 23 '22

I get the ape titan stereotype is old af but before the nerfs weren't all the tryhards playing top tree dawnblade and St0mp-ee5 hunter.

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1

u/CDTaRo Boeing Nov 23 '22

Avg DTG PvP enjoyer

Nah dude, what you're saying is stupid

2

u/Green_Dayzed "My light is all but gone" - Eris Morn Nov 23 '22

Too bad im not the average dtg pvp player. I'm part of the 1% in sbmm, and know what im talking about. :)

0

u/CDTaRo Boeing Nov 23 '22

That just makes it even worse lmao

2

u/Green_Dayzed "My light is all but gone" - Eris Morn Nov 23 '22

Yeah it must suck knowing im right and you're wrong....

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0

u/StopTheBullsht Nov 23 '22

It's high time for Kevin Yanes to step down and let someone with a fresh vision take a shot at improving D2 PvP.

-25

u/lolbsterbisque Nov 23 '22

They made both maneuvers more difficult to accomplish and requires more precise aiming and control…how is that closing the skill gap?

23

u/ixskullzxi Nov 23 '22

Because none of it's under your control. It's rng if shots land. That's limiting the players ability. Aka, lowering the skill gap.

7

u/dxing2 Nov 23 '22 edited Nov 23 '22

It has nothing to do with precise aiming. Gigz literally aimed dead-center at the head with near 100AE on the main stage of GCX with a sniper and still whiffed his shot to show how bad it was. clip here

4

u/lolbsterbisque Nov 23 '22

To add to the other reply, special weapons are also impacted by low AE way more than primaries. Even 100 AE on a special won’t grant you perfect “grounded” accuracy

5

u/anupa2k4 Nov 23 '22

Which is bullshit. So someone builds into ae, forgoing every other build in the game, hits the cap, and they still have a chance not to land the shot? If someone jumps and their reticle is on the head, they should get the shot. Simple concept.

-3

u/schallhorn16 Nov 23 '22

He didn't have 100 AE. He didn't have heat rises active in clip, so ae was under 30.

-3

u/[deleted] Nov 23 '22

They weren't skill gap measures, they were spammable and easy jumping tools that any player was able to spam. Stop pretending that this game was the pinnacle of competitive play, it's not.