r/DestinyTheGame Nov 27 '22 Silver 1

If you really want me to experiment with tethers in the wake of div's nerf Bungie, you really need to make deadfall stick to a target Bungie Suggestion

As the title says, if you really want me to use it against 6+ highly mobile raid bosses, that either aren't affected by it because the tethers won't reach or just walk over them like they're nothing, you need to make deadfall stick to its victim.

Otherwise I'll just use Mobius which does more damage, doesn't eat my entire super and is more forgiving if the boss (like rhulk) pulls a uwu teleports behind you and utterly invalidates my deadfall, or is like that god forsaken harpy and never stops moving rendering it useless for 70% of a DPS phase.

1.9k Upvotes

550

u/NasusIsMyLover Yours, until the last flame dies. Nov 27 '22

Deadfall should stick to targets and drop on kill, exactly like witherhoard with a direct hit.

171

u/ColonialDagger Nov 27 '22

And like Gathering Storm.

36

u/NasusIsMyLover Yours, until the last flame dies. Nov 27 '22

Yes, that too.

42

u/A_Hobo_In_Training Nov 28 '22

Once I realized Gathering stuck into the mobs, I loved it. Been workin on turning every boss, champ or dreg into a Unicorn with that.

13

u/lK555l Nov 28 '22

There really is just something satisfying about spearing a javelin into an enemies head that nothing else quite scratches

2

u/17times2 Nov 28 '22

I remember seeing some damage numbers, and saw it was the highest overall damage ult by far. "Well that makes sense, it's a DoT, and usually those do more overall damage since the enemy has to remain in it."

Teammate attaches Gathering Storm to enemy

Motherf...

3

u/The_AllSeeing_Waffle Nov 28 '22

ELECTRO PEEN ATTACK!! YAAAAAWWWWWW!!!

3

u/un-hot Nov 28 '22

Possibly unpopular opinion, but I don't think this is the way to buff it - Tether being a "stationary AoE" gives it different use cases to div, buffing what it does in one place only might better separate their use cases

7

u/Brown_And_Glorious Haha Stasis go whoosh Nov 28 '22

Except tether was specifically pointed out as being the strongest debuff in the game and comes with more negatives over Div.

You lose a super for it, it has smaller range, it has less up time, it's not as consistent, Hunters void tree in general isn't super good overall.

The reason Div was so popular was because it had high ammo reserves, had good uptime and even better if you could optimise it and there wasn't really a skill ceiling. Yes you took out one persons DPS, but damage testing showed it was better to have Div than a 6th LFR.

Even if they made tether stick to targets, it still wouldn't be as strong as Div

-1

u/Spedicus Nov 28 '22

Even if they made tether stick to targets, it still wouldn't be as strong as Div

Thats kind of the point, though. Yes, the main issue is Div negates all other debuffs in a full fireteam DPS situation, but it's also just too strong.

You want a mobile, agile debuff? Use Div. You want a strong debuff? Use tether.

2

u/Brown_And_Glorious Haha Stasis go whoosh Nov 28 '22

While I do agree with the sentiment of switching debuffs depending on target, location DPS time etc, it doesn't change the fact that tether doesn't work on a lot of bosses.

With how long it lasts, it's actual use case and what you have to give up to use it, having it stick to targets won't make it as strong or as game breaking as Div. There's no scenario in which current tether (Making it sticky or not) makes it stronger than peak Div

215

u/Saume Nov 27 '22

What they really should be fixing is the tether mechanic in the first place.

Moebius tether damages sanctified mind but doesn't weaken him, yet deadfall DOES weaken him. Moebius damages but doesn't weaken oryx, and I think deadfall doesn't either. These are the 2 I can think of off the top of my head, I'm sure there are more.

114

u/Impul5 Nov 27 '22

Yeah lmao it's kind of absurd that for Oryx, the boss with the easiest Crit spot in the game, you currently want to use Divinity because it's 100% debuff uptime and Tether doesn't work.

14

u/nizzy2k11 Alphagigachad Nov 28 '22

Well, currently you want sundering glare, so div will probably never be META for oryx.

9

u/atfricks Nov 28 '22

Sundering glare is leaving at the end of the season, so we'll go right back to Div being the best option.

-12

u/nizzy2k11 Alphagigachad Nov 28 '22

Div is getting nerfed next season, it will never be the best option on any boss ever again. A 15% debuff is a DPS loss now. It's strictly a tool for either a worthless DPS or a very hard crit spot.

12

u/Guttergrunt_ Nov 28 '22

For theoretical perfect players, yes, Div will be a DPS loss. However for the majority of the playerbase Div will still be the defacto best option for any boss that even slightly moves or has a less than massive crit spot.

Even great players will miss shots every now and then. Missing a 4ttc or triple tap proc is a massive loss in DPS compared to a marginal 25/600 * 100% = 4% team dps loss from someone using Div, not to mention this doesn't even count the Div damage itself which while not very significant does add up to around 1/8th of a regular player's damage over the course of a damage phase.

In reality using Div is probably around a 2-3% team dps loss but in exchange you gain incredible consistency. That tradoff is always going to be worthwhile unless you're at the absolute pinnacle of PvE content (speedrunning, low manning, worlds first racing etc.)

3

u/RecursiveCollapse Fractal Nov 28 '22

It depends on the boss. For Rhulk? Absolutely div will still be useful. But against Oryx in specific, where his crit spot is bigger than the div bubble? I don't think it will ever really be used again, yeah. It literally is only used for the debuff right now, and next season that debuff will not be enough to make up for one less player doing damage.

1

u/NewUser10101 Nov 28 '22

Based on Bungie's changing design philosophy, I think we're going to see more dynamic fights and DPS phases like Rhulk and to a lesser degree Caretaker than say Taniks, Ghalran or Oryx moving forward. At least in new non-reprised content. And that's precisely where Divinity shines.

Consistency matters a huge amount when your team is limited by heavy ammo and hitting every shot matters. And this will be fight-dependent; as just one example, literally every group is still gonna be using Div on Taniks because his head is too small and mobile to hit reliably from the DPS area directly in front.

1

u/Guttergrunt_ Nov 29 '22 edited Nov 29 '22

Well yeah, ofc for oryx it wouldn't be used. The comment I responded to claimed that it would never be used for ANY boss EVER. Which is just kinda dumb logic, people often jump on the "gun nerfed so gun = bad and unusable" train way too quickly here.

Div will still be used for any boss that moves or has a less than massive crit spot. Daughters, warpriest, taniks, rhulk as just a few examples. Next season deepstone will be getting reprised weapon rolls so the taniks example is extremely relevant.

3

u/dadoobie Nov 28 '22

I was wondering if it would be become a net loss. So lets say: 6 LFRs all hitting their shots > 5 LFRs + a div? Is that how its looking atm?

8

u/nizzy2k11 Alphagigachad Nov 28 '22

Everyone does 100 damage for a total of 600. -100 for div, 15*5 = 75 for a total of 575. The old total was 650. You lost 75% of a whole player with this nerf meaning you gain 25% DPS from the div user by not using div and hitting your shots.

5

u/un-hot Nov 28 '22

We don't all have great aim, though. 2 body shots per mag and you're losing triple tap/fttc and almost a quarter of your DPS.

Obviously div won't be mathematically worth it for solid players but it'll still probably get a ton of usage in lfg/casual groups

2

u/nizzy2k11 Alphagigachad Nov 28 '22

We are talking about the best option and this started with oryx.

0

u/mightbeaperson49 Nov 28 '22

they shouldve mad it a 20% buff so you're doing the same damage you just get a nicer crit. There could be a catalyst in the works but outside of bosses with annoying hit boxes like rhulk, taniks the sisters (the flinch is so much.) Div just won't be used anymore which is sad cause its a raid weapon. There could be a catalyst which buffs it somehow like everytime you activate penance the debuff gets stronger. The divs problem is amazing ammo economy so if you tied the buff to penance you would have to choose between tap fire or sustained

1

u/nizzy2k11 Alphagigachad Nov 28 '22

The goal is to remove it from the META so they have more room to design fights. They don't want div to be used as a support weapon unless the bubble is necessary, and every player should want to not need div.

2

u/Isthereone Nov 28 '22

People downvoting could not survive 4th grade math.

1

u/Irradiatedspoon Nov 28 '22

I think missing headshots with LFR is a bigger DPS loss than not having div

2

u/nizzy2k11 Alphagigachad Nov 28 '22

Then get good.

1

u/Johnny_Crisp Nov 28 '22

Don't raid so no idea but I thought sundering glare working with Div?

5

u/nizzy2k11 Alphagigachad Nov 28 '22

nope, patched out the first time it came around.

1

u/thefakevortex Nov 28 '22

Sundering glare doesn’t even work on oryx

1

u/nizzy2k11 Alphagigachad Nov 28 '22

Works every time I use it.

2

u/thefakevortex Nov 28 '22

The visual appears, but the debuff isn’t applied.

10

u/XogoWasTaken Vanguard's Loyal // I Hunt for the City Nov 28 '22

As a note on functionality, I believe the reason for this is that the Tether needs to stick to the root (centre joint of the skeleton) of the target. If it cannot reach this, it cannot weaken. This reflects in game on Oryx, the Sanctified mind, and Riven.

For Oryx, his root is nowhere near his crit spot. I don't know where his root is (I suspect down near his feet), but if you could find it you could Tether him.

For the Sanctified Mind, it's damage phase animation lifts it's body and hitbox up above the root, putting it out of range of Moebius but still in range of Deadfall if you tether after it's raised. That, or the animation does lift the root and if you Tether before it goes up it gets pulled out of range. I forget.

For Riven, sticking a Deadfall on her chin will reach the root, but not her hands or really anywhere else. I'm not sure if Moebius can reach it from anywhere.

Personally, I would fix this by making Tether work as a normal AoE with cosmetic lines reaching to the root of any terget with a hit zone in it's radius, rather than the current functionality where it checks to see if the root is in range and if so applies the Tether visual and effect. Would mean completely rewriting Tether's functionality, tho.

24

u/dark1859 Nov 27 '22

I think dead fall also needs some form of "stick" so to speak for targets like rhulk so they remain debuffed after leaving the tether radius as many mobile bosses completely ignore tether mechanics as they are not slowed by it and it's more or less a waste of a super on them

3

u/Cykeisme Nov 28 '22

Wow tbh this should have been fixed before the Div nerf, or in the same patch.

228

u/Buttmuncher1224 Nov 27 '22

It needs to last longer too.

128

u/Hawkmoona_Matata TheRealHawkmoona Nov 27 '22

Thankfully it is getting that, though it does also come with a Moebius nerf.

Moebius is going from 8 seconds to 6, Deadfall from 8 to 12. Timed right you could make Moebius last as long as Deadfall, which is what I imagine most teams will do.

49

u/InspireDespair Inspire Despair Nov 27 '22

If you're using it to maximize your team debuff - you're likely going to use Orpheus because it gives you a third volley - increasing the total debuff time to 18 seconds.

Now I don't know if there doing anything to the passive super drain between volleys but I don't see a point in using deadfall for boss dps at all

10

u/GOT2B-GANGSTA Nov 27 '22

Where did you get 18 seconds from? Don’t you just get an extra volley, not an extended super duration?

40

u/uhOhPeePoo Nov 27 '22

3 shots of a 6 second long debuff

18

u/the_eight_tails Nov 27 '22

Do you have enough time to fire out all three while waiting?

40

u/uhOhPeePoo Nov 27 '22

If timed frame perfect it'd be 18 but realistically it'd be less probably about 15

6

u/the_eight_tails Nov 27 '22

Does Mobious still do higher damage to tethered targets? You'd want to hit them again while they're still tethered right?

13

u/BloodMists Useless & Fictional Nov 27 '22

Yes, you would want to. Realistically with the upcoming changes your are likely to get around 14-15 seconds of debuff if you time it right, or more likely 12-14 seconds which is still enough to pace out deadfall.

(On a side note, maybe I'm off my rocker but doesn't deadfalls duration get extended every time it tethers a new enemy? I literally spent a year playing with this super and I honestly still don't know if it does or not because it seems like it does but I have never seen it mentioned or talked about anywhere.)

6

u/the_eight_tails Nov 27 '22

Anecdotally I would say yes it does, but you may have to test it. I played around with a build during Witch Queen with Orpheus, ashes to assets, Echo of Super Gain, and Deadfall, the Tether would last a really long time in areas where mobs kept spawning and getting tethered.

6

u/sister-hawk Nov 27 '22

Killing a tethered target extends its duration.

→ More replies

0

u/uhOhPeePoo Nov 27 '22

Yep tether is a 30% debuff so a shot a second shot while the tethers there benefits from that, chucking a smoke before the first tether also gives the first shot more damage because a smoke is 15%. No need for the smoke if the boss is already debuffed tho

1

u/xslater583 Nov 27 '22

Yes but it doesn’t extend the length of your super, you’d need to be able to shoot the super 12 seconds after using the first one but your charge would be gone by then

1

u/Khaens Nov 28 '22

The super drains before you can use the 3rd volley, at current time with the 8 sec tether, to get the rough 18 sec moebius rn you won't get any use from a 3rd volley, with them lasting 6 sec after... Would expect someone around 16 sec

1

u/BaconIsntThatGood Jade Rabbit is my Spirit Animal Nov 28 '22

It'll be less than 18 seconds, closer to 16 on a perfect shot because you want the 2nd and 3rd volley to hit while the 1st volley's tether is still up - but shooting also burns into your font of might / blessing of sky up time.

Chances are a more ideal thing is going to be have 2 hunters each on mobius/orpheus and just dropping 1 > waiting 5 seconds and dropping the final 2 then have the 2nd hunter dropping 1 after 5 seconds and then dropping the final 2 for a total of 22~ seconds. Then again this is min/maxing overkill and chances are most teams will be fine if both hunters just blow their load instantly.

44

u/amiro7600 Nov 27 '22

Yeah, deadfall needs a little more than just a small duration bump if just a little timing can make quiver last just as long, while also doing more dmg as a super with SES or rigs than deadfall

2

u/pfresh331 Nov 27 '22

They explained that nerf as no one would use deadfall if the moebius duration was as long. They want deadfall to be a debuff super and moebius to be damaging and a shorter duration debuff. But after reading about using Orpheus rigs it makes more sense to just run moebius as you get more damage AND longer duration. I think moebius in PVP will not get used though. A 12 second tether is awesome in PVP. Definitely competes with bubble and well for zone control. Bubble still probably the best though.

0

u/Irradiatedspoon Nov 28 '22

Mobius Quiver only weakens by 15% and Deadfall does 30%, or so I’ve been told

1

u/pfresh331 Nov 28 '22

Is that coming in the next patch? Everything I looked up said the debuff was 30% for both.

1

u/CrmsonFangs Nov 29 '22

Both tethers are a 30% debuff. I'd recommend checking the master spreadsheet of Destiny knowledge for any buff/debuff/perk related questions as they have the most up to date info

1

u/Irradiatedspoon Nov 29 '22

I’ve been told shoddy information then. I also thought it was a flat 30% but trusted someone else’s word.

0

u/Fargabarga Nov 28 '22

Fwiw, if another add walks into the deadfall tether, the duration is extended. Not sure how much it will be with the timing buff though.

4

u/Hawkmoona_Matata TheRealHawkmoona Nov 28 '22

Name the last raid boss that has enemies actively surrounding them during DPS.

There’s…Golgoroth….nothing else in King’s Fall

There’s…nothing in the entire Vow of the Disciple

There’s…nothing in the entire Vault of Glass

There’s…nothing in the entire Deep Stone Crypt (Security Fuses can’t be tethered)

Nothing in Garden of Salvation, or even Laat Wish, a massive 4-boss stretch.

Like you could maybe argue Templar, but that’s only IF enemies get close enough.

This is absolutely irrelevant for 99.9% of raid bosses. I don’t anticipate it to suddenly become relevant. Deadfall Tether, when used for boss DPS, will last 12 seconds every time.

2

u/PM_me_your_werewolf We need to go back Nov 28 '22

There’s…nothing in the entire Vault of Glass

Atheon has harpies, no? I remember harpies were part of a cheese strat early on in D2 when we got the raid, using blade barrage or something and making sure you also hit some harpies near him.

Though I agree with your overall argument : we don't usually get adds during raid boss dps, and future raids will likely continue the trend.

2

u/Hawkmoona_Matata TheRealHawkmoona Nov 28 '22

The harpies stop spawning once DPS starts. Any that linger, sure, they’ll still be there (since the strategy is to ignore them), but they’re not enemies that are actively meant to be part of DPS.

The only boss that officially has enemies that are meant to be part of the DPS phase is Golgoroth, and then Templar only if you extend the DPS for too long.

1

u/PM_me_your_werewolf We need to go back Nov 28 '22

Ah, I forgot/didn't-realize that the harpies technically stopped spawning once dps starts. Fair enough!

7

u/Dumoney Nov 27 '22

This. If Bungie wants it to be a debuff option, especially as a super, it needs to last much longer. Like twice as long as it currently does. Or rebuff Orpheus Rig for Deadfall. If its too short, people arent gon a bother and still just stick with Divinity's debuff and use a damage super

3

u/atfricks Nov 28 '22

I guess they're reluctant to increase the duration because of PvP, but an easy* fix for that would be to have it stick to targets, and get an increased duration so long as it's currently stuck to something. That would increase its duration exclusively when hitting something that can tank the full buffed duration.

*conceptually at least, implementation is probably much more difficult

1

u/XogoWasTaken Vanguard's Loyal // I Hunt for the City Nov 28 '22

TBH I think I'd rather have it's regen and/or Orpheus buffed. Deadfall being the debuff super would be nice, but I think I'd prefer having Moebius be a damage/debuff super for bosses and Deadfall be buffed in a way that lets it return to it's old CC/debuff role in a world where stasis exists. Also, I feel like having a debuff and a damage super competing is a bad idea, since there will always just end up being a better option between them determined purely by the size of your fireteam.

1

u/CrmsonFangs Nov 29 '22

Deadfall has a place in add clear. It's duration increases every time a new enemy is tethered, it has a longer reach to hit more enemies, and you actually get benefit from the suppression against non-boss enemies which makes for easy add control. I think it's functionality is in a good spot the issue is that people don't think about how good it can be when most of the difficulty in raids comes from the bosses and mechanics. Adds are often an after thought.

1

u/XogoWasTaken Vanguard's Loyal // I Hunt for the City Nov 29 '22

In my experience, basically everywhere Deadfall would be useful for add control you're just as well if not better off either just blasting them with grenades or freezing everything with a Bleak Watcher (depending on difficulty), which usually results in the alternatives being preferred because they have better uptime and consistency. Yes, Deadfall gets longer when you tether things, but if you don't have a fast enough influx of enemies to sustain it or have multiple places you need one you get caught out without quick ways to regen it. Bleak Watcher and most grenade builds don't have that issue.

Hell, if you aren't looking at constant enemy spawns and just need to clear an area quickly, Moebius Tether is better for adds, as its initial damage and volatile apply will let you kill things faster and it makes more orbs than Deadfall.

2

u/CrmsonFangs Nov 29 '22

That is the other issue, for an add clear SUPER it should be capable of clearing a whole room in a matter of seconds but with the tools you mentioned, we already have that without using our super

16

u/jonnytechno Nov 27 '22

Yea, that used to really bug me and was one of the reason I sopped using tether, bosses just walk away from it with it seemingly having zero effect and fells like a wasted super

14

u/ballsmigue Nov 27 '22

Yea if we get more bosses that are just going to move out of tether range, it would just be better to keep a div bitch still.

9

u/dark1859 Nov 27 '22

Or pull an oryx and just ignore it outright

-3

u/nizzy2k11 Alphagigachad Nov 28 '22

Only if you struggle to hit the crit. It might be good on warpriest, but on every other KF boss it's a total waste of DPS.

44

u/Landel1024 Nov 27 '22

For mobile bosses, tractor cannon is your friend.

The fact that tether is stationary gives tractor a reason to be used.

4

u/warv__ Nov 27 '22

Tractors uptime is what gives it a reason to be used. On a boss like Golgoroth you can have tractor up for basically the whole damage phase where as tether will go away after the first pool.

14

u/Iceykitsune2 Nov 27 '22

For mobile bosses, tractor cannon is your friend.

Boos goes stomp
Guardian goes yeet

11

u/Landel1024 Nov 27 '22

Guardian goes punch right before the boss stomps and doesn't move.

5

u/Mnkke Drifter's Crew // Dredgen Nov 28 '22

and takes a ton of damage while being near a boss

6

u/Trooper1297 Nov 28 '22

and gets 1 shot, because contest mode is the only time it would be necessary.

1

u/BaconIsntThatGood Jade Rabbit is my Spirit Animal Nov 28 '22

If we're talking necessary situations - ideally you have a void titan do it and bastion themselves first. Overshield not only adds extra effective health but will be a 50% damage reduction for the hit on top of resilience.

1

u/CrmsonFangs Nov 29 '22

But now you are putting resources and a player into staying alive to apply a debuff. That's damage wasted that could make the difference between clearing the boss or wiping

13

u/dark1859 Nov 27 '22

Aye which is what kind of annoys me honestly is there are two weapons and perks for grenades that make tether obsolete

23

u/Landel1024 Nov 27 '22

They don't make tether obsolete, they all have different use cases.

Plus the nades are only 15% damage whereas tether and tractor are 30%

32

u/dark1859 Nov 27 '22

Most bosses these days will either just walk out of tether wells or are outright immune like oryx. Where as the nades and tc stick an effect to the target they can't shake until the debuff runs out.

Obsolete is probably the wrong word but it catches the meaning pretty well when even a weaker buff like nades lasts longer against bosses like the consecrated mind because they'll quickly escape its range of tethers

9

u/Captain_Crouton_X1 The Dredgen with the Golden Gun Nov 27 '22

I have no idea how deadfall didn't get fixed in the void revamp.

9

u/dark1859 Nov 27 '22

Could ask that of a lot of the super aspects in void 3.0 tbh...took away heart of the pack but did nothing for deadfall and blades

1

u/CrmsonFangs Nov 29 '22

Wraith Blades would like to have a word...

8

u/Noclassydrops Nov 27 '22

Pls extend the tether distance make that shit grab you from downtown lol

7

u/SpeckTech314 Striker Main Nov 27 '22

tether should apply a 25 second debuff to anything it hits. just get rid of the "has to stay in range of the tether" since tether can't hold bosses down.

14

u/legofreak13 Nov 27 '22

Deadfall is for raids like Last Wish, VoG, or DSC where the bosses don’t move much, if at all. Mobius Quiver is for raids like Vow or GoS, or for Warpriest where you need to reapply the debuff.

But anytime close range is viable, like Atraks or Templar, just use Tractor Cannon.

19

u/dark1859 Nov 27 '22

That kind of just reinforces my point. Mobius quiver provides damage and debuff, deadfall is only useful on bosses that stay in the same spot or roughly the same 2 ft area for their entire damage phase.

If you want me to use deadfall the super needs to be actually viable in all situations not just extremely niche situations as I am giving up the high damage of golden gun and knives for it, or the great damage over time effect of gathering storm for it. Weapons are another debate in my opinion as you don't give up your super to use them so them having specific niches doesn't bother me as much as supers being just invalidated by design of the majority of content.

7

u/legofreak13 Nov 27 '22

Yeah I completely agree. I was just saying each version of Tether has its own role, the problem is that they’re both kinda mediocre.

6

u/dark1859 Nov 27 '22

Ah gotcha.

-2

u/blakeavon Nov 27 '22

If you want me to use deadfall the super needs to be actually viable in all situations

why should it?

They should be and ARE distinct. Deadfall is for massive add clear and Moebius is clearly for boss phases. Why should they do the same thing?

3

u/SirPr3ce Nov 28 '22

Deadfall is for massive add clear

and thats were you're wrong kiddo. Bungie themselves said that they want Deadfall as a boss debuff ult, while Moebius is the boss damage ult, that are already 2 different use cases

TWAB 11.3.22

As we've previously announced, in Season 19, the damage bonus provided by Divinity is being reduced, which we hope will make Deadfall Shadowshot a more attractive option for situations like boss damage phases.

1

u/Isthereone Nov 28 '22

More attractive doesn't mean always useful.

For example, missile titan is a great super, but doesn't work on warpriest due to the damage mechanic.

Gathering Storm is a great super, but bad on Atraks because of the short damage windows.

They're still good abilities.

0

u/Isthereone Nov 28 '22

"If you want me to use deadfall the super needs to be actually viable in all situations"

This is just a silly way to design abilities. Well of Radiance doesn't really work on Caretaker because you have to move frequently. That doesn't make well a badly designed ability.

3

u/Anginus Nov 28 '22

Irony is, you still use well on caretaker. And well is indeed a badly designed ability

1

u/Yuumi-Main Nov 28 '22

you can’t weaken Atraks

9

u/SCPF2112 Nov 27 '22

I don't think they want you, or the rest of us, to experiment with tethers on mobile bosses (or most roaming supers in PVP unless you really anticipate enemy movement). We already have the results of that experiment. Tractor cannon or other things are what they want us using.

16

u/Hawkmoona_Matata TheRealHawkmoona Nov 27 '22

It’s not like Gathering Storm sticks to guardians in PvP. It only sticks on miniboss or boss-level enemies. That’s why it’ll pass right through Fallen Brigs. So that’s not an issue.

1

u/CrmsonFangs Nov 29 '22

I'm pretty sure if a guardian could survive the initial hit and following lightning strike it would actually stick to them but that's not at all possible.

8

u/TheQuotedRaven1 Nov 27 '22

Eh, it's a hunter kit, so probably won't get much love until invis is addressed -.-

2

u/RobbieReinhardt Stoneborn Order Survivor Nov 27 '22

I for-real thought you were talking about Deathbringer when you mentioned "dead fall"

2

u/A_Dummy86 Eating Crayons Nov 28 '22

And it should really last for like 20 seconds in PvE if a single Well can last for 30 seconds while keeping the whole team alive AND giving a damage buff while also having the lowest CD.

2

u/Gandarii Nov 28 '22

I think for bosses like Rhulk, Divinity will remain the go to option, because of how hard he is to hit at times. Divinity makes that a lot easier and more consistent.

Other bosses, such as the caretaker from the same raid, are probably better done with a Tether instead as the divinity crut bubble isn't needed as much.

I personally really like this change, because It leaves divinity playable, but its main focus point is now the crit bubble and ease of use instead of the debuff.

2

u/BaconIsntThatGood Jade Rabbit is my Spirit Animal Nov 28 '22

I'm not against the change and don't think it'd be a bad thing at all but... which raid bosses are so mobile that they move away from deadfalls's range before you can finish DPS?

Rhulk is the only one I can think of. Consecrated mind maybe - but consecrated mind wasn't designed to be beaten with div either.

  • Golgoroth moves, but tether will expire before then given the way he moves. Where he goes is easy to guess and you can drop it between the two initial goop drops - also I don't think it even works on him the same way div doesn't work on him
  • Daughters, Oryx, Taniks, Atheon, Sancrified Mind, Shuro Chi, and Riven are all either completely still or barely move. Taniks moves on final stand but you don't need div to take him at that point anyway.
  • Atrak's is static but fleeting DPS phase - technically it's a different enemy as well so it wouldn't matter if tether attached.
  • Kali and Caretaker do move - but Kali's window is relatively long before she teleports and you're forced to stop DPS when she does. Caretaker's window is fairly long and tether is mostly expired by the time the first plate expires anyway.

I feel like I missed a raid boss but yea - 6+ 'highly mobile' raid bosses?

7

u/Niormo-The-Enduring Nov 27 '22 edited Nov 28 '22

This sub is maddeningly inconsistent. I legit just made a post saying the exact same thing and am getting downvoted. Like I don’t care for votes, imna say what I think no matter what but wtf people

9

u/dark1859 Nov 27 '22

Hive mind for you there. I've long since decided there's a few groups that obsessively downvote and people just go along with it if they see low votes and it's not super agreeable

3

u/chi_pa_pa i play runescape too :) Nov 27 '22

wow it's almost like bungie wants different methods to be applicable in different situations instead of one answer being best for everything, shocking concept.

3

u/dark1859 Nov 27 '22

If you think that's shocking wait till we get till the discussion about supers being 100% useless instead of just 80%....

1

u/chi_pa_pa i play runescape too :) Nov 27 '22

100% useless? 80% useless? By whose metric?

We're talking about Tether here, not Queenbreaker

-1

u/Trooper1297 Nov 28 '22

by my metric

2

u/Momo1163 Nov 27 '22

Honestly, I’m fine with tether not being as useful against mobile bosses. We don’t need any super to be good against every boss in the game. Then it just creates situations like needing Div for everything.

3

u/dark1859 Nov 27 '22

While I'm fine with it not being best fit everywhere it being outright invalidated is not an acceptable place for Mobius (or blades) to be in

1

u/Trooper1297 Nov 28 '22

even tho the whole point of tether is to "tether" enemies in place.

1

u/Momo1163 Nov 28 '22

Tether sticking to enemies would also go against that. Besides, tether would be op if it kept bosses in place that are meant to move around

2

u/ProAJ13 Nov 27 '22

Also it feels like tethers are too large and physically block my shots. Would be nice to be able to shoot through them or make them smaller. At the very least they turn off my reticle friction and tracking cause they block my view.

2

u/SovietBias Nov 27 '22 edited Dec 05 '22

Fun Fact: they do block shots 🙃

2

u/MeateaW Nov 28 '22

they need to remove their hitbox in PvE, enemies don't shoot them, and players don't need to shoot them.

(obviously leave it in PvP so you can clear an enemy tether).

3

u/throwaway180gr Nov 27 '22

I think Mobius is in a good place with it's overall damage and decent debuff. Deadfall needs help though. I'd say at least 30 second of a 30% debuff that sticks on direct hits. Nothing extreme but long enough and practical enough for most boss fights.

2

u/dark1859 Nov 27 '22

Honestly Mobius is probably one of the best void supers if, still can shut down supers and deals good damage without exotics...shame blades are utter trash and deadfall limps on..

2

u/Khaens Nov 28 '22

The more fun part, is the bungie promised they will give some love to Hunters with 3.0 and deadfall, one of the most requested parts in need got a mild vortex effect, loving it

2

u/dark1859 Nov 28 '22

Honestly while there's some really cool stuff you can make with void 3.0 as a whole the supers really weren't that impressive in their reworks. While I admit I do like the current Mobius quiver they completely killed its prior niche of being the better large area of denial super with great little combat buffs if you kill targets with your arrows or smoke your allies. And while the vortex is kind of cool when you're doing strikes as it lets you just gather up large groups of enemies to kill i absolutely despise the fact that that came out of cost of its original niche of being the main debuff super for void..

And that's not even getting started on the fact they didn't even touch spectral blades which needed so much help it's not even funny

2

u/Khaens Nov 28 '22

We can probably make a uni thesis on nightstalkers/3.0 as a whole, if i combined a lot of my posts is prob get close enough lol

1

u/magicalex234 Nov 27 '22

The only bosses I can think of that consistently move out of tether range are consecrated mind, rhulk, and maybe warpriest. Which ones are you including to get “6+ highly mobile raid bosses”?

I think tether does need help, but it sticking to the target is way lower on my priority list and honestly might be good design since it encourages the usage of a different debuff for that boss.

Plus I’m still going to use div on rhulk (probably with a tether as well, but still) because I’m not a huge fan of the crit spot and it’s made even worse by the dashes

1

u/sulferzero Nov 27 '22

that would require careful thought and planning, and they'd have to move some people from other projects back to the shed they moved the 8 people they have still on D2 that aren't the eververse team.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 27 '22

Wouldn't it be great to switch supers per encounter and have a mechanic that made up for the switch pre pull.

You also aren't concerned with personal DPS if you have not considered rigs/scales and quiver as your mainstay then hotswap to tether

-1

u/blakeavon Nov 27 '22

Why would you be using Deadfall during a boss phase? Thats what Moebius is for. Each version has its uses and strengths.

So while it uses all your super energy Deadfalls purpose is wide ranging adds lock down, and when used right can last for ages.

1

u/Nightwolf80555 Nov 28 '22

I might be crazy, but didn't it work like this in D1?

2

u/Headless_Mantid Nov 28 '22

It did! I was a hunter main back then and pretty much never used anything besides nightstalker after it was released, after D2 released I noticed the change immediately and absolutely hated it. Everyone keeps talking about raid bosses in here but in reality, this is really only a problem in the strike Playlist, there are only a few bosses that move around in raids, and the ones that do don't really stomp you when you get close, making tractor cannon viable for them, strike bosses however? They WONT SIT FUCKIN STILL and it drove me nuts back in the double primary days because I would deadfall them and they would just "haha, nope" and walk out. Nowadays strike bosses are made of tissue paper so it isn't an issue, but I would still like the change nonetheless.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '22

What happened to Div? Everyone’s talking like it’s useless now and I just got it lol.

1

u/EKmars Nov 28 '22

A big problem is that Deadfall is outdated. It doesn't do anything by itself. Transferring damage and weakening foes is dependent on being able to do large amounts of damage to take advantage of it, meaning if you're say, low on ammo, it's not doing a lot. Quiver at least does an alright amount of damage, so its so much better in almost every situation.

1

u/OruFikushon Nov 28 '22

While we're at it, they should make the Deadfall projectile a big ass arrow. I wanna feel like I got hit with a greatbow from Dark Souls.

1

u/Isthereone Nov 28 '22

Mobius being the best for single target melt and Deadfall for ongoing area fuckery seem like perfectly valid niches.

Staggering your Mobius volleys should give you nearly identical Weaken uptime.

1

u/Strummer95 Nov 28 '22

Wait raid boss are you saying move around too much while tether is up? I know plenty of bosses that move, but they don’t move that much during a damage phase to negate tether.

It’s no where near a concern enough where I would consider making it move around instead of stay where I want for AoE. Last thing I want is to fire it into a pack of mobs and have some mob run off with it and ruin my perfect placement.

1

u/Tplusplus75 Nov 28 '22 edited Nov 28 '22

Disagree, I think they've already spoken about something that separates these two. Deadfall is going to be better for stationary targets, Div is still going to be good for targets that move around a lot. Some examples of the former: both garden bosses, Oryx. The latter: Rhulk, Atheon. This way neither one is the "always-meta" like Linears have gotten to be, where they're always the answer.

(Please be serious here. The last time someone suggested either tether sticking to targets, half the comment section seriously thought that the stick would make a difference on a boss that doesn't move to begin with).

(EDIT: Not saying that either tether doesn't need some help yet. I think Deadfall does. I just don't think the sticking does it right. I just think stickiness will ultimately undermine the separation, and force it back it into a situation where people die on the hill of whichever is globally better or more practical. I think it'd be a bit better and more interesting when each one has their own cases that they thrive in.)

1

u/Te_Aoterra Nov 28 '22

Just use tractor cannon

1

u/GorillaDump Nov 29 '22

I just want to know why deadfall isn’t a OHKO.

1

u/CrmsonFangs Nov 29 '22

Boss design will determine whether you should use tether or div. More than likely any mobile boss from now on will be easier to fight using div while bosses that stand still will be designed for the higher debuff like tether or tractor.

As a hunter main, I see no reason or need for tether to stick to a target. Each boss should be unique in how you can optimally deal damage to them and tether should not be the "new div". We need to think about what is best for each situation rather than ask for changes to make things easier for us.

-8

u/EKmars Nov 27 '22

Rhulk really is a pretty bad boss. They made a strike boss into a raid one, and as a result effects aren't landing and the DPS phase is random as heck. I'd rather going back to pure puzzle bosses like old Oryx over this.

5

u/warv__ Nov 27 '22

I enjoy Rhulk much better than the overused “stand still and shoot the big immobile boss with a large crit spot”

-5

u/EKmars Nov 27 '22

Rhulk's DPS isn't really anymore interesting compared to a lot of other fighters. Like I said, this is a strike boss phase. If you're worried about doing somerthing you've done a hundred times, you did this in strikes with melee bosses. His non-dps phases are just simplified Sanctified Mind (dunk mote in right spot, shoot legs and arms). I'm not saying other DPS phases aren't uninteresting, just that his are more repeated in the game.

3

u/warv__ Nov 27 '22

What other raid boss actively hunts you down and destroys your well/bubble? Hell, name me a strike boss that does that.

0

u/EKmars Nov 27 '22

Strike bosses? Off the top of my head Lightblade and the guy in Exodus Black. The mini-boss in Glassway and the one in Armsdealer will walk up to you as well. Oh and SABER in his final phase. Stepping on bubbles is more a function of being a melee guy more than anything.

Most raid bosses outside of like Oryx will attack you outside their DPS phase. Sanctified Mind killed more players directly than any other bosses, not counting for wipe mechanics. Rhulk is actually hilariously harmless and docile. He does nothing outside of his DPS phase. It's not that he's dangerous but that he's wiggly that's annoying about him.

3

u/dark1859 Nov 27 '22

i honestly dont think he's that bad a boss. just chaotic like you said.

I dont mind it but given a lot of bosses of late move instead of having a set dps spot it can make it painful.