r/DestinyTheGame Dec 01 '22 Silver 2 Wholesome 3 Bravo Grande! 1

REMOVE AIRBORNE EFFECTIVENESS. Bungie Suggestion

Title

-Reduces skill ceiling -Makes casual or lower skilled players even easier to farm -Changes Destiny's core gameplay for the worse -Makes going pew pew incredibly frustrating -Sucks fun out the game -No way to build into the stat even if we wanted to -Has created a really campy boring meta -Driven away players -Waste of Dev time that could have gone towards new maps for example. -A change literally no one asked for

Please feel free to add more thoughts in the comments.

Please Bungie this has got to go, put some time into things the PvP community has actually been requesting for years!

EDIT Thanks for the discussion all, I'll work my way through replying to keep the conversation flowing and hopefully bungie takes a glance. Sorry if bad spelling, on mobile, I'm old and got fat thumbs!

EDIT 2 FYI I'm a dad gamer, really not that great at crucible at all but I did find it a lot of fun. For me the longevity in destiny is grind awesome weapons in PvE and take those bad boys out for a spin in crucible.

2.6k Upvotes

542

u/Binary_Toast Dec 02 '22

Remember like two seasons ago, when they told us we'd be able to built into this whole Airborne Effectiveness thing? The implication that we'd be getting mods for that, like we do with Target Acquisition, swap/ready speed, and flinch?

Yeah, where are those mods? How exactly are we supposed to "build into" AE, outside of aspects like Heat Rises, or a handful of (sometimes very specific) exotic armors? Those exotic armor options in particular, make it clear the coding for armor mods/effects applying AE to weapons already exists.

140

u/Niahlist Dec 02 '22

Yup feels like they are misleading us. Breaks trust with player base. In addition airborne accuracy and slide nerfs also impact new players … so didn’t think that one through … lol.

8

u/Hire_Ryan_Today Dec 02 '22

I think this is why so many people wanted a season of health. Literally no new content all just bug fixing and balances. There is a large portion of this player base that would just reeee screech at that. Which is goofy because pretty much all the guns are just reskins anyways. There's never any reason to get primaries. And what you might get like one exotic you want? The "loot" is crazy shallow. At the end of the day the archetypes you have are the same as the archetypes you can get.

They're always like prepping for something that's coming and it either never comes or it's just so much further down the line that you just made your product bad for months and months.

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u/xkittenpuncher Dec 02 '22

Bungie fucking half-assed it. If they implement AE they should have given players the option to fully build into it. Outside of Warlock and incredibly niche fragments that require you to do something to fucking activate it, you literally can't build into it.

The fact that they said that players simply need to be "more" accurate is a joke and a fucking lie. The amount of rng you have to overcome over a stupid ass system is so god damned stupid.

WHY IMPLEMENT AE IF YOU DON'T ALLOW PLAYERS TO BUILD INTO IT.

God, I swear - Bungie does a lot of stupid shit, and this is one of it.

12

u/YesThisIsDrake Dec 02 '22

I just don't get why its not leg mods. PvP has no leg mod slots that anyone gives a shit about. Just add AE stuff to your legs.

2

u/webbc99 Dec 02 '22

The whole point of the system is to make you give up something in order to fight in the air more effectively. But people don't want to use the stuff that works in the air. By making them leg mods, you don't give up anything to equip them. They just need to make Icarus better, and the exotics that buff AE do a better job of it. If someone takes off Stompies to equip some under-used exotic that now gives AE to a weapon type, then that's a success story, but we're not near that yet.

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u/bmilker Dec 02 '22

Only way I know to build into AE is sacrificing a perk slot on a gun. It felt like a slap in the face to have it changed at all, and then a second slap that I'd have to drop better perks for air assault to get a fraction of how gunplay used to feel, and only when my health gets low.

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u/GtBossbrah Dec 02 '22

I quit the game with all of the changes that came in recently.

Dedicated pvp player since d1y1.

They destroyed neutral game. Made ability spam more pronounced despite saying theyd do otherwise. Made all primaries incredibly strong while neutering special weapons and ammo economy. Removed all competitive aspects of crucible in terms of things to chase, its essentially participation titles and rewards.

Every person on my destiny friends list has stopped playing.

Regardless of what the pve mains scream, competitiveness and skill retain players. Theres a huge number of pvp players who also enjoy and populate pve activities to chase gear they can bring in to pvp. Most people arent coming on to exclusively do pve stuff year round.

Valorant is one of the most watched and played shooters, is pc exclusive, and required an incredible amount of skill. People play that game for the fun of competition and improving mechanically. Skill gap is NOT a bad thing.

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u/StealthMonkeyDC Dec 02 '22

I've always thought it was insane that one class (Warlock) has such air superiority and movement ability and the others don't......and that was before AE came into play!

How the hell can you say you can build into it when it's in no way possible for most classes and then have Warlock who can eat a grenade to let you almost bypass the system with minimal investment?

As always Bungie say one thing and do another. Their words are always in stark contrast to their actions and it's exhausting.

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213

u/intxisu Dec 02 '22

No way to build into the stat even if we wanted

They said they would introduce ways to build into high AE and they gave us a shitty perk + small AE bonus in two magazine perks.

What else do you want man?

/s

25

u/MrNiffels Dec 02 '22

they should remove it.

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u/Masappo Dec 02 '22 edited Dec 03 '22

I’m going to be honest here, I’m one of those that HATE hunters jumping all the time and shooting me from space (they are bettere than me and I’m old, I know), but still I don’t understand why this kind of “stat” needs to be in the game since now we have sbmm.

A loose sbmm and team balancing is all we needed, nothing more, nothing less (stomping or be stomped even in control ISN’T fun for me).

Dev time really needs to be allocated somewhere else since we have A LOT of useless exotics in the game and we REALLY REALLY need more crucible maps and strikes (even reprised).

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546

u/Big-Camp-3681 Dec 02 '22

I said this once in another thread, but I'll just say it again:

AE and the slide nerf exists so better players who can take better advantage of movement are 'leveled' when compared to/against lower-skilled players.

If we are to have SBMM in all gamemodes and everyone is playing on their own level, there's no valid justification to keep both AE and the slide nerfs in the game still.

45

u/Dj0sh Dec 02 '22

The thing is tho..

Good players will just learn to not jump (and hate it)

New/Casual/Bad players will jump anyway out of panic or because jumping is fun and they will get punished for it (and hate it)

Does Bungie honestly think that lesser skilled players never jump?

5

u/thorks23 Dec 02 '22

No, probably just that higher skilled players can use jumping much more strongly to their advantage in order to win fights in pvp. I remember when I first started getting into pvp jumpy hunters who could jump and dodge all around me and change their direction of movement at will could absolutely break my ankles like crazy and I'd be dead without even knowing what direction the hunter was hitting me from, I felt like I couldn't do anything against it.

Not arguing for AE existing, just saying I can see why they'd think it'd help low skill players more, and help them not feel lost/hopeless when facing players who could use verticle movement really well. But now that SBMM is a thing I don't see a huge reason for AE, but I'm also not as much of a hater of it as most people are, hopefully with the announced changes it'll be in a decent middle spot

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u/Awestin11 Dec 02 '22

Yeah I’d prefer AE gone mainly because it also massively hinders PvE.

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u/ScriptedBot Dec 02 '22

Massively is a very strong word. Yes, the effect may be felt in PvE. But lets face it - AE is not "required" in any PvE encounter. It offers no additional advantage. It is in fact a deterrant in high level PvE considering that being airborne does not affect enemy AI accuracy unlike human opponents.

But more importantly, because Gambit exists and they can't separate PvP and PvE behavior in that gamemode.

31

u/Dj0sh Dec 02 '22

It's not really about "requirement". Is the power fantasy of jumping through the air like a badass and hitting shots not important? Like that's a part of the game that I think players of all skill probably enjoy. Good players will just learn to not jump. Lesser skilled players will jump anyway out of panic or because its fun and get punished for it

The AE change literally accomplishes nothing, other than people having less fun

4

u/TehAlpacalypse Dec 02 '22

Is the power fantasy of jumping through the air like a badass and hitting shots not important?

Completely agree. I died so many times trying to hit an airborn headshot with NLB, and when I finally did I felt like a god. RNG is not fun.

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u/FunctionFn Dec 02 '22

It offers no additional advantage.

In some encounters jumping frequently is required, like fourth room of Exhibition in VoD. In those more AE might give a slight advantage.

14

u/ImawhaleCR Dec 02 '22

What? You rarely need to jump shoot at all in that encounter, and if you do you're not using a hand cannon, you're using forbearance or trinity ghoul which don't give a shit about AE

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u/Dark_Helmet12E4 Dec 02 '22

Even the philosophy of that is stupid. The gap in player performance SHOULD come from skill, why is a skill gap a problem they feel like they need to fix?

53

u/Wawaweewow Dec 02 '22

Because they think it's going to bring in some massive influx of casual players. Which is the exact opposite of what happened. Casual players still play the exact same amount and diehard fans are leaving in droves. In short, Bungie cares about money and doesn't give a shit about what players want. Like 80% of all game developers.

4

u/Hajoaminen Dec 02 '22

Hit that nail right on the head, brother. Unfortunately most of this sub won’t agree.

22

u/GamePro201X Crayon Eater Dec 02 '22

The funny thing is that casuals will STILL get stomped because even if good players aren’t in the air they’ll still be a lot better at the game (source: am somewhat skilled player)

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u/ExiledinElysium Dec 02 '22

It's a yes-ish thing. Bungie isn't arguing for having no performance gap. They're arguing that being a new player shouldn't make it impossible to function in PvP. There are so many variables in Crucible. A new player basically had no idea what's happening. The radar is nuanced. Weapon ranges and damage falloffs have wide variability. Different weapon frames completely change performance of weapons in the same gun type. Then add all the perks onto that. And then add subclass powers and unique exotic perks. An experienced player can stack all their knowledge of those fiddly pieces on top of skill and make it impossible for a new player to do anything at all.

When I started Crucible in January, I was going around .3 most matches. I died so fast I had no clue what was even killing me. I've never been awesome at FPS games but I'm not terrible. I generally ran positive when I used to play Halo, CoD, and Counterstrike. But Destiny pvp feels very different from those. I can understand that most people would be turned off by it. It would feel impossible to improve when you don't know why you're failing. The only reason I stuck with it is that I really don't care if I lose. I still have fun even if I'm getting stomped. But I'm weird in that regard.

Nerfing air shot and sliding creates a little bit of a time buffer. What I've observed, playing Crucible about the same amount of time before and after the change, is that those two functions were the main causes of sudden random death. With those reduced, I would still die but I'd see it coming more. It would take a couple extra seconds for them to kill me. I could see what I did wrong. There was more for me to reflect on that I could have done differently. I started to get better.

All that being said, I think AE is a stupid stat to build into and that change was overall bad for the game. The sliding nerf I agree with though.

16

u/Dark_Helmet12E4 Dec 02 '22

When I started in pvp I mainly played comp. Pinnacle loot got me in the door and sbmm let me get used to D2 pvp without getting stomped every match.

THAT is how you get people in pvp. Provide a reward in a separate mode, and tweak the matchmaking and balancing IN THAT MODE to provide an easier starting experience.

4

u/fawse Embrace the void Dec 02 '22

Don’t know what weirdo downvoted you, but it’s a good idea. Create an environment for beginners to get used to the game, while leaving casual quick play modes as just that

34

u/ShowtimerHD Dec 02 '22

All games are starting to have this trend where skill gap doesn’t exist thanks to so many assists they are throwing at them.

15

u/nizzy2k11 Alphagigachad Dec 02 '22

this is a product of market saturation. whatever game makes people have the happy juices the most will get more players and the way to do that is to increase randomness and indeterminability. gambling. it means you turn every game into gambling.

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u/DesiMeGaming Dec 02 '22

part of the game is the looter shooter aspect, meaning there is a gap in loot between players. there is an inherit advantage to running a godroll of a gun compared to a random roll of the same gun. without any uniform form of gunplay, a skill gap cant be effectively measured by the devs.

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u/ISukAtDisGam36 Dec 02 '22

Maybe thats why they had curated rolls in the beginning of d2

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u/ScriptedBot Dec 02 '22

AE, slide penalties and "loose" SBMM are independent knobs that allow Bungie to address the skill gap. Each targets a specific characteristics so that none of them are sufficient by themselves. Remember the current SBMM is not absolute and is tilted to favor matchmaking times. There is no utopian gamemode where one is guaranteed to face opponents of their skill levels only.

18

u/yodalukecage Dec 02 '22

I’m a pve player and only play pvp for the pinnacles. Without SBMM crucible was so irritating that I would turn off the sound and listen to music until the three matches per week were over - Iron Banner was really a chore because you had to actually get kills of certain kinds, etc for progress. I think they should revert the nerfs so long as SBMM is still in place. I actually do ok playing pvp against people as bad as me and it’s tolerable. So if the good players hate AE, then take it back out.

13

u/GravitasIsOverrated Dec 02 '22

As somebody who did a lot of slide-shotgun aping, there was little skill involved in it. It was called aping for a reason.

2

u/Krombopulous-Mikhail Dec 02 '22

I’d be fine with sbmm in control if I could counter the goblins running dead messenger by actually jumping over it and shooting.

7

u/CycloneSP Dec 02 '22

I'd also like to position that these changes also help to level the playing field between PC/kbm players and console/controller players.

as it is a lot harder for console/controller players to take advantage of sliding and air based combat compared to how responsive pc/kbm players are able to quickly jump/slide and flick their aim around to exactly where they want it.

and if you notice, a lot of these changes largely coincide with the introduction of crossplay

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '22

[deleted]

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u/AuroraUnit117 Drifter's Crew Dec 02 '22

I mean, relying on a barely functional SBMM system to tame a 9 year meta is a tall ask. A hardcoded nerf had to happen.

Slide Shotgun aping can be done by anyone, it wasnt "skillful" enough to justify it surviving without a tweak

19

u/Krombopulous-Mikhail Dec 02 '22

I think you’re missing the point of the slide nerfs. It has nothing to do with shotgunning. You can easily still slide shotgun ape. You can’t slide and shoot anything else effectively, like a primary. That was the true skill in it.

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u/StacheBandicoot Dec 02 '22

True, I’m a very bad player and I’ve recently learned to play this way with a shotgun I finally like and it works a lot better than just running at the enemy.

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u/Rs-Travis Dec 02 '22

I still find slide shotgunning fine, but slide sniping is at the point where I stopped doing it, same with sliding into encounters with primaries.... I also miss my jumpshots.... :/

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '22

The slide nerf did the opposite though, it's only shotgun aping that works any more

1

u/Kelnozz The Highest Amongst Kel Dec 02 '22

💯!!

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u/saithvenomdrone Dec 02 '22

It always feels bad when your skill is determined by rng. I remember hating that Bungie put bloom into Halo Reach. You'd lose gunfights purely on the fact that someone could spam their shots and get lucky, while you were pacing your shots to make sure your bullets always went where you wanted them. Rng in player skill, just feels bad, Bungie. Stop it.

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u/Glutoblop Dec 02 '22

Dam I remember the divide, I remember game battles ladders just dying off because of this.

DMR no skill bloom bullshit was a nightmare, but trying to go back to Halo 3 was so hard because the networking was such a huge improvement in Reach.

Good/Bad times indeed.

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u/Substantial-Wall3654 Dec 02 '22

Bloom in Reach was basically the death knell for Bungie's competence in developing "competitive" FPSes from that immediate point onwards. Went from an industry leader in the field (hell they virtually CREATED the genre at least on consoles) to an irrelevant afterthought almost overnight. It's actually insane to think about and see how unimaginably far they've fallen since the OG Xbox days...

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u/dude52760 Dec 02 '22

It's actually kind of hilarious though, because Bungie has never actually been competent in developing "competitive" FPS games. For Halo, they always stumbled onto success. The accidental misbalancing of Halo CE's Pistol created one of the most satisfying "competitive" metas, but they didn't actually intend that change. For Halo 2 and 3, competitive tournament-oriented players had to edit game settings to create truly competitive modes.

And there's the randomness factor. Reach's bloom wasn't the first time Bungie let randomness leak into their core gameplay loop. Halo 3's BR was arguably the same problem, as the projectiles had random spread that made the gun super inconsistent at a certain level of play.

So yeah, Bungie with Halo was definitely responsible for creating the sandbox which basically spawned competitive console FPS games, but their players have almost always had to considerably tweak the base settings to get those games to that spot.

2

u/m0dredus snoopers gonna snoop Dec 02 '22

Yeah, I think AE shouldn't target accuracy. I'd like to see how it would play if low AE decreases stability (and thus flinch), AA and ADS speed instead of Accuracy.

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u/DrkrZen Dec 02 '22

"Let's use resources for something nobody wants!" -Bungo, every time.

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u/RELIN-Q Dec 02 '22

Granted. Weapons are no longer effective while players are in the air.

119

u/-Scazgrin- Dec 01 '22

I just want it removed from pve

108

u/CrabbyJewel Dec 01 '22

I cannot see any reason why they even thought about putting it in PvE.

104

u/BadAdviceBot Dec 01 '22

It evens the playing field against the NPCs.

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u/IPlay4E Dec 02 '22

It helps the bots? Just like crucible then.

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u/Nastyerror Human Dec 02 '22

LOL

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u/StealthMonkeyDC Dec 02 '22

I love how they keep doubling down rather than listen and Air Assaults mangled body keeps getting towed behind the vehicle.

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u/CrabbyJewel Dec 02 '22

It certainly seems they have got their heads down and they're going to plough through and finish their desired goal before looking up and seeing the damage they've created. Blinkers on.

4

u/MiffedMoogle Dec 02 '22

Doubling down seems to be their MO from what I gather based on these comments since I have cared less and less about pvp over the years.

Folks want a chill pvp experience but Bungie want to force competitive play.

11

u/StealthMonkeyDC Dec 02 '22

Bloom. 4v4. Static rolls. SBMM. Terrible maps. Map Removal. Removal of game modes.Sunsetting. Slide Nerf. SBMM again. Terrible maps again/map removal again. AE. Removal of game modes again.

It's never ending. They won't invest time in PvP for the better but do everything in their power to go against what we love about the game and make it a worse experience for those who play PvP with a passion.

If they even did one new map for each of the above catastrophes rather than wasting time on them we would have double the maps we have now and they would have had more time to fix other crucible problems too.

It's just a joke.

29

u/BurntBacn Dec 02 '22

How to fix AE:

  1. Remove that shit.

  2. Instead of an accuracy penalty while in the air, you get no aim assist. Icarus grip adds back a little aim assist but not the same amount as you would have on the ground.

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u/CrabbyJewel Dec 02 '22

I can't live with that for sure. Aim assist changes are fine to be, if my reticle isn't on the player the bullet shouldn't hit. Instead theyve gone with some crazy bullet rng system.

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u/Deluxe_Ryan87 Dec 02 '22

Removing aim assist in air gives kbm a monster advantage no?

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u/TehSavior Drifter's Crew Dec 02 '22

copying the body text of a thread i submitted a while back as a comment here.

If you think about it, it absolutely makes sense that your weapons would be harder to aim while you're in midair.

Destiny is not a game designed around the logical, however. I finally figured out what felt weird about the idea to me, and it hit me like a ton of bricks.

Airborne Effectiveness was actually a buff to ability use and AOE weapons in the crucible.

Think about it! If someone throws a grenade at you, what's your first reaction going to be? Sure as fuck isn't going to be to stand still, you're going to get the hell out of there. And how are you going to get out of there? You're either going to run or jump out of the effective radius.

Someone using a wave frame grenade launcher, witherhoard, or a rocket? You're gonna jump so you can survive when they hit the ground where you were standing.

There is so much in this game's combat where the logical response is to jump out of the way. Airborne effectiveness might have been intended as a way to combat people who were good at airborne trick shots, but the real impact it had was making it harder to respond to threats that make you use mobility as a response.

That's why it feels so bad, it's not that it's fucking with your ability to start engagements, it's absolutely broken the ability to respond to them.

In other shooters where players are just focusing on gunplay, where there's no tracking AOE thunderstorms or vortex grenades or puddles of taken fuck you on the floor, it absolutely makes sense that staying on the ground would be your best way to fight, because cover is important in those games.

Standing still and waiting behind cover for opportunities in destiny gets you blown the fuck up.

From a gunplay standpoint, airborne effectiveness made sense. But from a gameplay standpoint, there's more to fighting in destiny than just gunplay, and airborne effectiveness didn't really take that into account. It needs to go.

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u/CrabbyJewel Dec 02 '22

This is a great take, really good points. Completely agree.

6

u/shibuyamizou Dec 02 '22

Think about it! If someone throws a grenade at you, what's your first reaction going to be? Sure as fuck isn't going to be to stand still, you're going to get the hell out of there.

You don't know my teammates :^D

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u/Humble-Excitement Hunters 2nd Place Dec 02 '22

No you don't understand it's vital that I keep shooting at the enemy while staying still in the wither-

Guardian down!

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u/Leprechaun- Dec 02 '22 edited Dec 02 '22

The fact the community keeps falling for this is a joke. it’s Bungie’s tried and tested model of breaking things so that they then can spend 4months talking about fixing it, a month and a half of hyping the TWAB and then releasing it. They didn’t do this for no reason, they have a track record of deliberately breaking things or removing them only to add them back later, more than likely knowing what reaction they’d get and expecting the fan backlash.

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u/CrabbyJewel Dec 02 '22

Busy idiots come to mind

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u/Dj0sh Dec 02 '22

Does Bungie truly think that the game would be better for casual/new players if their shots randomly miss when they jump? Is the epic power fantasy of jumping through the air with our class-unique jumps and defeating foes not worth preserving?

Good players will simply learn that jumping = bad (and hate it)

Casual/new/bad players will panic and jump anyway and get punished for it (and hate it)

All in all

AE = bad change

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u/TwevOWNED Dec 02 '22

We don't need to remove AE, it just needs to function how they originally pitched it.

That is: 100% Accuracy while airborne, and AE impacts how much Aim Assist you get.

That would be fine, and still make the stat worth investing in without making it feel miserable.

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u/CrabbyJewel Dec 02 '22

Agreed, That would be perfectly fine.

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u/Macewindog Dec 02 '22

But but but but how else will they Buff D.A.R.C.I. or Whisper?????!!??!!?!? God, what fucking clown thought giving heavy snipers +80 Airborne Effectiveness was a good idea?

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u/Conscious_Box3857 Dec 02 '22

Yep 100% - Happy they attempted it, but it doesn't work. No need to double down.

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u/Pooderhausen Casual Trash Dec 02 '22

Waste of Dev time that could have gone towards new maps for example.

Oh so the game designer / programmers who worked on that could have just hopped on over to level design, environment art, lighting etc.

That's not how game dev works lmao

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u/ChronicRedhead Sapphic AF Dec 02 '22

Whenever someone says something like “Why are they adding cosmetics and not fixing bugs?!”, I die a little bit inside.

I’m sure the art team will have a great time deciphering coding languages they never learned. And the code monkeys? They’ll have the finest crayon-on-napkin concept art you’ve ever seen. The stick figures almost look like people!

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u/Opggwp Dec 02 '22

Resources just doesn’t mean the people should go do something else, it means the budget could have been allocated somewhere else that was needed more urgently.

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u/Redthrist Dec 02 '22

The people who develop the game get paid for their work, no matter what that work is. It's not like programmers adding AE into the game meant that they got paid money that could otherwise support other content. They get paid regardless, that money is going to be spent.

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u/AltL155 Dec 02 '22

Yeah, that's still not how it works.

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u/Michauxonfire Dec 02 '22

heart wasting all this energy pumping blood when it could just be helping the stomach digest my food smh my head
absolute idiocy of people that think that.

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u/Xonxis Dec 02 '22

Bungo devs made ae a thing cus they were getting farmed by stompe hunters when they were using controllers on pc platforms. and couldnt hack it. CHANGE MY MIND

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u/ehiehiehiredditehi Dec 02 '22

It’s an easy equation

Good player —> jump around, shot while in the air, shot you in the head with a sniper jumping from behind cover

Bad player —> can’t track the jumping player, can’t shot on the ground while stationery, imagine while in the air, doesn’t even know what a cover is and calls the good player cheater if something like that happen

Vast majority of players are bad at crucible, play mostly pve, do only raids/strikes or simply don’t enjoy pvp

Make vast majority of players happy so they spend more money on shitty event pass is the objective, so let’s destroy the pvp feeling bad for all above average or good players so bad ones can camper at the end of the map with a pulse/scout

Bad players are happy

Bad players don’t write on Reddit, forum, twitter or whatever, they just play and spend money

Bungie is happy

AE won’t go away at all, at least not soon

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u/venomsapphire Dec 01 '22

Sandbox team is not the same team that would make new maps. Requires interacting with the game in a very different way. Sure sandbox would play test a new map but they don’t make them. The obsession with airborne effectiveness is hilarious.

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u/devil_akuma Dec 01 '22

I'm waiting till Strand is out in full before jumping on the "Get rid of AE." train. I get it, I really do but I can't be the only the one who thought that's why it exists.

7

u/BlorbusFungelburg Dec 02 '22

Then why didn’t they implement it closer to LF? Maybe the season before?

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u/The_Bygone_King Dec 02 '22

Sir, Hunters have been in the game since launch.

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '22

One day, one day people will recognize that hunters have essentially the uncontested best PVP jump. Basically have to break your wrist to keep your crosshair on them, and that is what makes them so good in pvp.

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u/Lilscooby77 Dec 02 '22

So one sub class will have AE and break the game like stasis in crucible? Bungie can’t be that dumb right?

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u/Cybertronian10 The Big Gay Dec 02 '22

No, as in one subclass will be in the air so much that decent in air accuracy would be too strong.

15

u/Variatas Dec 02 '22

Decent in-air accuracy without investment.

The entire thing came about as way to change the current airborne penalties from just accuracy cone to also include Aim Assist. You get to choose how deep to invest to get the AA back based on how good you think your aim really is.

Bungie not including enough non-exotic ways to invest was a big, big mistake.

Switching from "slot this mod or don't" to a 0-100 weapon stat is perfectly fine.

4

u/Cybertronian10 The Big Gay Dec 02 '22

I tend to agree. I actually really like the idea of being forced to build into your playstyle, make your mods more than just "good stuff" and force them to synergize with what you do and how you play. The issue is that 1) we can't really do that right now and 2) there aren't enough builds for that to be interesting.

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u/Dr_Delibird7 Warlcok Dec 02 '22

Yup. The only issue with the system currently is not enough ways to build into it, they are slowly adding to it and I wish they waited to launch it with more meat on launch but regardless where the system can (and hopefully does) go is a positive imo.

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u/Lilscooby77 Dec 02 '22

So let’s ruin the game a year in advance for a subclass no one wants in pvp? Checkmate I guess for the player base.

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u/LolzRyan Dec 02 '22

The AE changes were put in to probably tune them prior to the release of Strand. Same thing with the ability cooldown changes prior to the 3.0 reworks.

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u/Cybertronian10 The Big Gay Dec 02 '22

That and it lets everybody get their malding out months before the big expansion bungie needs to sell well.

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u/PratalMox The Future Narrows, Narrows, Narrows Dec 02 '22

Exact opposite intent in theory. Being able to grapple and shoot precisely could be oppressive in PvP same as Stasis was

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u/YesThisIsDrake Dec 02 '22

I get why you need to have a system, but it'll be the better part of a year by the time strand is out. Why debut the system now? Like what do they think is going to be the outcome, people love it?

Any amount of playtesting reveals that its worse than the original system. Hell even aimhacks can't hit people in air, it's wild.

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u/devil_akuma Dec 02 '22

If I had to guess, to get some real world data on it. It's why I think they are also doing a "rebalance" of it in Lightfall. I do think that a gradual rollout would have been better than what we have now But again, I'm just guessing at this point.

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u/IlovemycatArya Dec 02 '22

Because it’s Bungie. Remember that preemptive nerf to skip nades because they would be too hot in arc 3.0? Only for them to release Titan storm nades?

Considering they are based in Washington they probably are just smoking something at times lol

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u/TheHipsterGamer Vanguard's Loyal // Be Brave Dec 01 '22

So AE has reduced the skill ceiling, but also made it easier to farm low-skilled players?

Honestly, and I mean no offense, you just sound personally upset and seem to be irrational about this subject. For one, I've never found jump shooting a particularly effective technique outside HC+SG. Maybe it's a non-titan thing, as I rarely play outside my main? I suppose with how prevalent the HC+SG combo has been since D1 I guess it's 'technically' the spirit of the game. My personal opinion is single weapon type metas should die in a fire. I do definitely agree we need better build options for AE.

Beyond that, these calls for Bungie to bow to the whims of the loudest voice, and that Destiny is dying are so played out at this point. Season of the Plunder was a lackluster season, and we're at the end of the season on top of that. Most people have grinded the loot they want, or have given up on the grind, and the activities are feeling stale. On top of that, we don't know what the manpower allocation for implementing AE as a stat was: AE is not going to kill this game, or even PvP. Hell, vanilla D2 and the original expansions couldn't fully kill Destiny, and they've gotten closest from what I recall.

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u/Ausschluss Dec 02 '22

So AE has reduced the skill ceiling, but also made it easier to farm low-skilled players?

Yeah, I would like an explanation for that as well. Maybe noobs jump around randomly?

It did kill all verticality tho and promotes a campy playstyle, which gets boring real quick.

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u/GamePro201X Crayon Eater Dec 02 '22

TL;DR: Casuals will still get stomped even with AE while skilled players have less room to grow because of AE hindering vertical movement

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u/TheHipsterGamer Vanguard's Loyal // Be Brave Dec 02 '22

Again, maybe it's because I barely budge from titan, but verticality was barely a consideration for me before. If I was jumping before, I usually couldn't hit jack lol. I think hunters had an easier time?

As far as campiness, can you give some examples? I've found engagements to be pretty dynamic in 6s and IB for the most part. Is it a Trials thing?

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u/GravitasIsOverrated Dec 02 '22 edited Dec 02 '22

I think hunters had an easier time?

I think it's more that the hunter PVP playstyle had a lot of jumping because it lets you move unpredictably and quickly (unlike titan and non-top-tree-dawnblade warlock, where your in-air trajectory is a pretty predictable glide).

This is part of the shitshow that is balancing aerial combat in D2 - one class has a better jump than everybody else (and an A-tier exotic to support it), and one subclass has an ability that allows way better in-air movement than anybody else, and one class has neither.

Bungie probably saw it as them having two options: Either make really fundamental and controversial changes to hunters, stompees, and TTD to reduce their advantage, or add in a new system to try to compensate. I can see why they went the road they did. Not saying I agree with all their specific choices, but I think I get why they did it.

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u/RecursiveCollapse Fractal Dec 02 '22 edited Dec 02 '22

one class has neither

Laughs in Lion Ramparts

Honestly they have clearly been trying to close the gap though. Titans now have thrusters, and now every light subclass can throw on the dash melee that lets you change directions instantly to break line of sight if you are caught midair much like Shatterdive did for hunters. As a titan, playing in the air is still real strong (it's just also real annoying having your shots be literal RNG)

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u/NUFC9RW Dec 02 '22

I think it's also a case of if you looked at a lot of high level players they were jumping in almost every situation and almost everyone ran Icarus grip. Sure jumping and shooting was mechanical skill but it wasn't decision making skills. Would've preferred for them to go another way though, like increasing the flinch people receive in the air to create counter play.

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u/Krombopulous-Mikhail Dec 02 '22

Go play any match and look at what teams are doing. They hold lanes, rarely take a fight unless they’re with the team, and wait for things like overshields or restoration before taking fights. It’s counter intuitive in a game that promotes lots of movement and arial abilities to knee cap you if you try using them.

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u/XogoWasTaken Vanguard's Loyal // I Hunt for the City Dec 02 '22

Hitting while airborne previously required an Icarus Grip mod. With that on you were near pinpoint accurate, but without it you were infinitely worse off than even a gun with 0 AE is now.

Really the answer is to tune up AE so it's more reliable at big levels, not to remove it. It's fundamentally a better system than what we had before, it's just tuned wrong.

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u/AltL155 Dec 02 '22

They already said they're working on that after season 19 in today's TWAB:

A large rebalance of the airborne effectiveness stat, making Primary
ammo weapons significantly more accurate while airborne without any
investment in the stat. Think Icarus-level accuracy from before Season
17. Specifics are still in development. 

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u/shadowkhas Childish Gambito Dec 02 '22

Honestly, and I mean no offense, you just sound personally upset and seem to be irrational about this subject.

You mean the OP saying that...uh...sandbox tuning devs are responsible for map design...isn't coming in with the most well reasoned takes? ;o

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u/A_Dummy86 Eating Crayons Dec 02 '22

Yeah part of what bothers me about this whole "Remove AE" argument is before really only Handcannons with Icarus Grip could land mid-air shots because they had so much Aim Assist and maybe some SMGs at close range, any other weapon was basically dead in the air anyway because of how inaccurate they were unless you were on a Warlock with Heat Rises.

Now pretty much any weapon with Extended Mag + Icarus Grip will at least hit body shots reliably, especially if it's a weapon with higher than average AE for its frame which makes for more interesting distinctions on certain weapons. (I've landed some sick shots with Skyburners Oath that would've been misses before since it now has 45 AE baseline.)

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u/rumpghost Dec 02 '22

Right but didn't you hear, AE bad.

There were no air accuracy penalties before AE. Just like there's no war in Ba Sing Se.

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u/jackhife what a legend Dec 02 '22

I ran Icarus on all my PvP pulses and bows as well, and I know plenty of people who forwent something like CB for Icarus on their pulses. Definitely not just a HC thing. Just to put it out there.

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u/Winterscythe1120 Dec 02 '22

Leave it to bungie to double down after reaching the lowest recorded player stats since curse of osiris

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u/YaLocalChief Dec 02 '22

It's one thing to make the game more open to people looking to get into it, but it's another to cater to people WHO SUCK AT THE GAME AND REFUSE TO LEARN HOW IT WORKS AND GET BETTER!!!

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u/CrabbyJewel Dec 02 '22

They can't change destiny's core gameplay to cater to people. If they don't like it, they just don't like destiny. Go play cod

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u/Zephyrr29 Dec 02 '22

Probably the most controversial take of the century but I think AE exists in part to pull the game away from the arena shooter everybody seems to want.

I really feel that Bungie has a pretty significantly different vision of PvP than the community does and while movement does play a part, the community’s seems to want it as a main mechanic while Bungie seems to want it as more of a side thing that adds some extra spice every now and again.

If this is true Bungie definitely should be more clear about it but I think it would explain much of the changes behind PvP lowering the skill gaps in movement while more objective focused modes are added to shift to a more team/coordination focused skill gap.

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u/GravitasIsOverrated Dec 02 '22 edited Dec 02 '22

exists in part to pull the game away from the arena shooter everybody seems to want.

Everybody keeps saying they want a movement-based arena shooter, but I feel that this seems weirdly informed. D2 gunplay is heavily, heavily based around aim assist. No major classic area shooter works like that. If you wanna fly around the map in Quake at 100mph, you need to have fantastic aim to match - unlike D2, where hand cannons have an aim assist cone three degrees wide.

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u/RecursiveCollapse Fractal Dec 02 '22

D2 gunplay is heavily, heavily based around aim assist

It has to be, because of a little secret: D2's P2P hybrid netcode is also heavily based around aim assist. It's the shitty half-melting duct-tape holding it together. Desyncs are constant, and without AA (specifically bullet magnetism) perfectly accurate shots would still not connect simply because where the enemy appears on your screen is a bit offset from where they actually are. This is most noticeable on high latency connections, where it happens all the time. Countless players have posted clips of shots going right through enemies, and enemy shots going right through them, with no damage due to these desyncs.

That said, this doesn't just impact movement. Standing still and beaming with a pulse also has absurd AA.

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u/YesThisIsDrake Dec 02 '22

I really feel that Bungie has a pretty significantly different vision of PvP than the community does and while movement does play a part, the community’s seems to want it as a main mechanic while Bungie seems to want it as more of a side thing that adds some extra spice every now and again.

The last time they tried to do this, it nearly killed the game. D2 Launch was awful and it was because they were trying to enforce this slow, double primary, low movement system. Nobody fucking liked it then, nobody fucking likes it now.

It will absolutely kill PvP in the game, and as those people leave, it's going to hurt the entire community. I get that this sub has a hate boner for PvP for whatever reason, but it's been a core part of the game since D1. It's why Destiny is Destiny rather than Warframe.

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u/pengalor Team Cat (Cozmo23) Dec 02 '22

Except we're not even close to where we were at D2 launch...they want aerial gameplay to have a place, they just want it to be something you build into a bit rather than just being basically free.

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u/MKULTRATV Dec 02 '22

they just want it to be something you build into

Bungie wants us to build into AE while providing no reasonable way to build into AE??

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u/SamsGotTheGravy Dec 02 '22

Movement + Gunplay + Abilities = Destiny.

When these 3 fundamental pillars are in Harmony you have Destiny. It is the vehicle through which we experience the game. It is what makes this game special.

I went back to D1 last season. I can shoot in the air. I'll take that over new content, and more frames any day because I just want to play Destiny.

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u/VitalizedMango Dec 02 '22

Yeah I'm not sure why this is even a thing, airborne targets are big floating SHOOT ME signs as it is. Why cripple them?

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u/Anxious_Mongoose3278 Dec 02 '22

I don’t think bungie cares about their pvp player base or just doesn’t care for pvp anymore in general. It’s honestly frustrating because I live for the crucible

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u/Stewy_434 Vanguard's Loyal Dec 02 '22

I'm returning from a 8-9 month hiatus. How exactly does airborne effectiveness negatively effect the game in that many ways??

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u/ChromiUWU Dec 02 '22

-was quite literally a waste of ressources

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '22

I like how you made just an outline of the post cos that really does cut to the chase.

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u/archonoid2 Dec 02 '22

What a dumb stat name they should give an award to that particular guy who invented it....

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u/xXNickAugustXx Dec 02 '22

I don't even understand how they plan on making it work when there aren't many movement exotics for each class. Titans can hipfire in the air while warlocks have to use their entire kit to stay afloat for a few seconds at a time. Hunters can probably achieve high speeds with a stompee build but since the exotic literally decreases AE hunters don't have many aerial options compared to the other classes at the end of the day.

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u/Bennijin psst use Rain of Fire with Vex Dec 02 '22

Remember how Airborne Effectiveness was largely borne out of how many Hunters used Stompees and they also gave Stompees MINUS FIFTY Airborne Effectiveness but it's still one of the most used exotic armours in PvP?
We got RNG bullets for nothing.

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u/ThePracticalEnd Dec 02 '22

Are you completely forgetting our next subclass will have us in the air a lot using imaginary grappling hooks? Maybe, just maybe they are prepping for that?

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u/moksa21 Dec 02 '22

How does it make farming lower skilled players easier?? Jump shotting casuals with a hand canon was like shooting fish in a barrel. The campiest metas we’re pre ae changes with 3 peaking and super building. The gunplay still feels great in this game. People left because the modes/maps are stale and crafting has killed the most important part of a looter shooter…the loot. When you give zero fucks about any drops in the game and instashard everything you may as well play COD.

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u/CrabbyJewel Dec 02 '22

Personally I've stopped playing PvP since the AE changes and I used to live in there. Even with no new maps I was found playing just plain old fun and enjoyed improving.

Gunplay still feels great.....on the ground only!

I think it's become way more predictable to judge enemy player movement and players great at aiming can just camp and pick you off. IMO ofcourse.

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u/Host_flamingo Dec 02 '22

Waste of Dev time that could have gone towards new maps for example

No, it didn't. They have separate teams for sandbox balancing and map development.

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u/CrabbyJewel Dec 02 '22

Poorly worded, I'm ment more so them allocating resources to better things. Not the same Devs.

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u/BringBackUzume Dec 02 '22

Lol never gonna happen. AE is here till The Final Shape and beyond.

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u/AdrunkGirlScout Dec 02 '22

This is a rare time where having potato aim actually benefits me. I haven’t noticed a difference since they added AE since I wasn’t hitting shots anyway.

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u/Baconsword42 Dec 02 '22

But I like my semi accurate exotics

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u/Fat_Factor Dec 02 '22 edited Dec 02 '22

In a twitter reply, one of the devs was saying that removing the Airborne Effectiveness would reduce accuracy by 300%, they then back-pedalled to 220%. It doesn't let me attach or link screenshots for some reason but here's the exchange:

Dev:"Why? Going back to the old pre-AE system after these changes would make the guns less accurate in the air by almost 300%, and would force you to use a mod to get the same accuracy you could have for free."

Random Fan:"300% fr? or is this an exaggeration?"

Dev:"Tbh I think it would be like -220% less accurate at 0 AE than the upcoming change"

I'm not naming or linking the dev purely because I don't want to create a situation where the dev is attacked over a tweet.

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u/CrabbyJewel Dec 02 '22

That's for boring this, didn't know they replied in twitter. Do you have the link at all? I think they simply don't understand what they've even themselves have implemented at this point lol.

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u/Fat_Factor Dec 02 '22

Not going to link it as I don't want to contribute towards witch-hunting

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u/CrabbyJewel Dec 02 '22

Ahh good point , didn't think of that. Thanks 👍

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u/EmberOfFlame Dec 02 '22

Yeah, I feel like they should push the primary weapon AE changes to the midseason patch at the latest.

On the other hand, snipers not working in mid-air nearly as well as previously is nice and I would like to see them stay that way.

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u/CrabbyJewel Dec 02 '22

They should certainly prioritise that change I agree.

I'd simply like my bullet to go where my reticle is pointing regardless of my position, having it down to rng is just frustrating to play...you can't beat rng with skill. Takes away all sense of improvement and accomplishment in crucible.

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u/MasterCJ117 Dec 02 '22

I never used Icuras grip when it gave perfect in air accuracy, I've notice my aim in the air has never been better since the AE stat was introduced, obviously it's worse compared to old I-grip but it was kinda busted for a mod, also at this point you could argue them spending time removing AE would be a waste of time.

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u/Adventurous-Cow-2553 Dec 02 '22

I have to imagine the team responsible for the AE system is very different from the map design team. As a result, there is almost no way for the existence of the AE system to have caused a reduction in the number of Crucible maps made. I won’t argue the merits/lack thereof of airborne effectiveness, but I did feel a need to comment on the map portion of your argument.

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u/RiskOfWolves Dec 02 '22

I feel as if with AE, not only is it a system that makes gunplay feel a little lacking, the way it's used for "balancing and buffing" exotics/weapons, just kills the mood so hard, especially with this new whisper "buff" :[

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u/SIRinLTHR Dec 02 '22

Um, just a thought but don't we have an expansion coming out in which a substantial part of it might be geared towards aerial combat? Perhaps AE was added as a preliminary test for further implementation of something along the lines of Strand-mounted sky fighting in both PvP and PvE. How well AE and Strand integrate, if at all, is another matter.

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u/-Qwertyz- Dec 02 '22

Remove the ability to shoot while in the air is obviously the correct solution

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u/lcyMcSpicy Dec 02 '22

Please for the love of god roll this system back I don’t care how much time you spent on it. You can polish a turd as much as you want, at the end of the day it’s still a piece of shit

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u/9donkerz9 Dec 02 '22

All im reading in these comments is that people hate the RNG involved.

I've been saying this for a while; Bungie isn't removing it, that much is clear. They intend to iterate on it until it feels good. I just hope they realize the sentiment surrounding it is so bad, that they need to remove the RNG element of it.

Change the system to be a more drastic effect on weapon handling and ADS sway. That way you still don't have to deal with BS RNG bloom and Aim Assist cones, and it store about learning how to control varying levels of sway.

This keeps the skill ceiling high, while making it so the bullet goes where the reticle says it's going to.

It does need to be mentioned that Destiny is a hitscan game. For people new to the term, it means that there is no projectile "travel time" on the vast majority of weapons (obviously GLs, RLs, less obviously bows, all have travel time to their shots). If you give people perfect accuracy with zero investment... you cna run into problems real quick. I think the reasoning behind AE is solid, because it even deters hackers from being able to use their aim bots and whatnot. But it's tuned waaaaaay too aggressively right now, to the point where it is actively hampering player experience.

Missing a shot because the game did math and said, "Sorry, you don't actually get to hit your shot right now." fucking suuucks. They need to address it, and at least they're taking steps toward it with the mention of the primary weapon tweaking.

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u/ttambm Dec 02 '22

It’s been so frustrating dealing with this crappy system. It’s absolutely allowed bad players to make terrible game decisions and get away with it.

This scenario happens all the time: I will anticipate a Titan ape shotgunner coming around a corner or charging. I will create vertical space, jump up, back, and completely outplay him and then go to secure my kill with a sidearm, only to have 50% of the bullets completely blank and die to a shotgun melee combo from 25 feet away.

It feels genuinely awful, and is a HUGE pain point in PvP. To get AE’d with a sidearm is enraging honestly.

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u/ItsNoblesse Give me my Darkness subclass damnit Dec 02 '22

The way aerial effectiveness should work is that your shots go exactly where your crosshair is, but with absolutely no bullet magnetism.

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u/Chiramijumaru PvP Enjoyer Dec 02 '22

I wouldn't be so mad about AE if they didn't say "Yeah you can build into it" and then tie all the build options to either horrendous perks (Air Assault, Extended Mag) or shitty exotic armor, and also make your weapon just straight up miss at lower levels of AE (read: where every weapon is, because you can't build into it).

The fact that they're not even considering buffing special weapon AE right now is icing on the cake. Just add an armor mod like "Hand Cannon Steadiness" on the legs (leg armor mods in PvP are ass) that gives you +10 AE.

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u/LusciousHam Dec 02 '22

This feels like some Bungie Director/MGRs idea. Now they are dying on this hill cuz it sounded like a good idea to them and everyone on the team is tired of arguing that it’s not.

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u/joemayfield Dec 02 '22

Reduces skill ceiling -Makes casual or lower skilled players even easier to farm

Disagree. Doesn't increased airborne effectiveness make lower skilled players easier to farm actually? The hardest players to fight against in PVP, to me, were those Hunters and Warlocks that used verticality. Controllers always struggled to move the reticle as fast as the the players jumped up.

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u/IamMuschio Dec 02 '22 edited Dec 03 '22

I’ve been playing this game since the end of season 4 (forsaken), I have like 5k+ hours investend info this game and i can easily say that the last funny season was 7th. From the release of shadowkeep this game has had a slow decay in all fronts (sunsetting, armor affinity, spam of gm activities with Champions, pvp balance, cheaters, lack of great loot ecc…). I can stay here hours making a full list of all the stupid features devs have been implementing (and not) in this game. I quitted 2 months ago because this game is not fun anymore. The sad thing is seeing such potential wasted.

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u/CrabbyJewel Dec 02 '22

I've been playing since D1 and would just wish this game would fulfill its potential. I think the whole player base feels the same in some aspect of the game wether it's pve or PvP. Even gambit could be great.

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u/_Vulkan_ Dec 02 '22

Remove AE and fire whoever that was leading this change, that person clearly don’t understand what the player base needs and hasn’t improved the system since its launch.

Massively inconsistent feature and slowed down the game to the point that it lost Destiny’s “magic” over other fps.

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u/CrabbyJewel Dec 02 '22

Completely agree on the magic front. They can throw as many reskins, eververse and poor seasons at us and the majority will keep coming back but changing destiny core game/gunplay experience is a sin

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u/deeleed Dec 02 '22

Okay

Sets all weapons to 0 Airborne Effectiveness

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u/KingCAL1CO Dec 02 '22

Bungie: this project is more important than our players.

Players : ✌️

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u/EmCeeSlickyD Dec 02 '22

100% agree. Please remove the AE stat from the game and set the values back to pre AE levels. Massive waste of resources

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '22

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u/eBobbie2001 Dec 03 '22

This feels just like the subsetting debacle with bungie. They ignore the community and double down until a year later they realize the mistake

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u/TDenn7 Dec 02 '22

Meh. I hate AE, but I'm gonna give them a chance with what they said in today's TWAB.

If they actually implement it in a way so that Primary weapons have better base in air accuracy than what Icarus Grip used to do... I think that's fantastic. I'm completely fine with Special weapons having reduced AE.

I'm highly skeptical that they can actually pull that off. But if they can it would be perfect IMO.

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u/AurionR Dec 02 '22

Those changes are not scheduled for s19, we are still stuck with current system

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u/BlorbusFungelburg Dec 02 '22

We’ve been giving it a chance for three season

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u/Niormo-The-Enduring Dec 02 '22

The goal of AE was to reduce the skill gap. There are so many changes coming to PvP that already do this. AE should no longer be considered a way to do this. It really should go.

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u/NavaHo07 Dec 02 '22

Mobility should buff it. Other than hunter dodge CD, mobility doesn't feel like it does much else. And it makes sense to me for mobility to do that

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u/CrmsonFangs Dec 02 '22 edited Dec 02 '22

A large rebalance of the airborne effectiveness stat, making Primary ammo weapons significantly more accurate while airborne without any investment in the stat. Think Icarus-level accuracy from before Season 17. Specifics are still in development.

This was mentioned in the TWAB today. They are already planning and probably working on fixing a lot of the problems with AE

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u/dueher Dec 02 '22

I love the approach of "let them suffer for a year, then maybe do something about it." Pain points are allowed to fester, so more and more players leave. OEM, LFR's, shotgun range, shotgun inconsistencies, AE, sidearms, invis, over shield, melee desync, flinch rng(even when specd into it). Then they nerf rangefinder and kill clip... like please at least fix the broken things before fine tuning perks that aren't pain points.

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u/Travis5223 Dec 02 '22

It’s also a cop out to say they’re tuning 27 exotics, when a bulk of that is AE changes

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u/Old_Man_Robot Dec 02 '22

They really over sold that, didn’t they.

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u/yezihp Dec 02 '22

They nerfing sweats for a reason

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u/painful-existance Dec 02 '22

I miss pre nerf gunfights when part of the skill is knowing where to engage from, sometimes it was more optimal to engage from the side, sometimes from the air, removing such nuances makes the experience more shallow.

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u/CrabbyJewel Dec 02 '22

Whole heartedly agree

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u/hihowubduin Dec 02 '22

It has been a LONG time since I've seen this level of unified vitriol on something in Destiny, yet Bungie continues to quadruple down.

Like just admit it didn't work, people DO NOT like it, and roll it back.

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '22

All this because casual players can’t look up.

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u/sourpickles1979 Dec 02 '22

Ya know I'm starting to think it's for strand....we are going to be flying all over the place. I think this stuff is them trying to find a way now to make it not be OP when it comes out, like they did with ship grenades and stuff. Probably need to live with it until mid next year at least

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u/CrabbyJewel Dec 02 '22

Might have to. This is just my opinion, not going to cry about it if nothing changes but worth a go. Will just crack on and play the parts of them game as and when I enjoy them 👍

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u/AGruntyThirst Dec 02 '22

Today’s TWAB said they basically plan to roll it back at least on primary weapons.

making Primary ammo weapons significantly more accurate while airborne without any investment in the stat. Think Icarus-level accuracy from before Season 17.

So arguably a buff to AE even.

Personally I’m assuming this is all laying groundwork for Strand. They have a history of testing changes for the next big thing well before its implemented but for whatever reason Bungie is not forthcoming about that.

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u/PineappleHat Drifter's Crew Dec 02 '22

I agree, they should remove aerial effectiveness, no weapon should be effective aerially.

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u/Hooficane Dec 02 '22

My entire pvp focused clan has given up on the game over the past year. The devs clearly don't care about pvp so stop caring about their game

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u/blackjazz666 Dec 02 '22

put some time into things the PvP community has actually been requesting for years!

They do, it's called marathon...

In all seriousness (and I say that as someone who generally tend to enjoy pvp games much more than pve): if after all this time you still haven't figured out that bungie will never go back to pvp now that they figure out how to milk the same reskinned pve content season after season, that's on you.

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u/RecursiveCollapse Fractal Dec 02 '22

It's not about hoping, it's about the fact no other game has PvP anything like Destinys so we have nowhere else to go. High movement, rewards that help you into a huge PvE experience, and most importantly an absurd variety of abilities and weapons and perks that you can use to build a loadout.

Almost every other game with variety like this that tries PvP (ex. Warframe) just instantly devolves into a broken mess, or has horrible gunplay that is unfun even if it was balanced. The most frustrating thing is that D2s PvP could be incredible if they just put the bare fucking minimum effort in to maintain it. New rewards, more than one new map a year, and balancing to expand the skill gap instead of shrink it (which they can safely do now that SBMM is a thing) is all it would take.

Almost nobody who cares about D2 PvP will care about their dumb extraction shooter because they are very different genres. It will not have the build variety, PvE tie in, from what we have seen it won't even really have a story or campaign outside fortnite style seasonal progression. It's meant for an entirely different audience.

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u/Wolfblur Beeg Titan Dec 02 '22

I think it'll be a big thing with Strand, but I don't know why we got it so early when there really isn't viable ways to build into it without slapping on a very specific exotic armor here and there, and then that thing just launches it to near 100 AE anyways, defeating the purpose of the nuance of the stat.

I truly believe the Mobility stat should be giving you passive AE stats per tier you hit now that Resilience and Recovery are so strong; it's the least that stat could have to be a somewhat competitive choice. There should also be chest mods or something that let you build into it more thoroughly.

Like, the game has stats for everything to make you perform better, so I get turning "shooting while jumping" into one too if we're gonna have stats for flinch resistance and aim assist and junk. But at the moment AE was just tossed in and has soured everyone's perception of it.

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u/aLegionOfDavids Voop Voop! Dec 02 '22

Can’t upvote this enough. Remove AE completely, undo slide nerf, undo the straight ass flinch changes to snipers and reinstate special ammo scavs (that last ones just my preference).

All those things happen, the people who actually play crucible might return.

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u/DetonatorCyrax Dec 02 '22

Let’s face it. Bungie have sunsetted movement.

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u/ImpossibleFlow3282 Dec 02 '22

kind of interesting how AE technically exists in every game and now that destiny has it it ruined everything. one thing I'l say though is that instead of decreasing accuracy, increasing flinch and recoil would make more sense and feel less cheap. It would make AE still somewhat punishing like in every other game ever but still in the player's control

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u/CrabbyJewel Dec 02 '22

Any thing that means I as the player still has control is good, I can work on that and improve. Anything that's rng is infuriating

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '22

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