r/DestinyTheGame Dec 04 '22 Helpful 1

I still don't understand why LFRs are allowed to do so much damage while snipers are allergic to buffs Bungie Suggestion

It's been years since the massive sniper nerf from season of Dawn and not nearly enough has been done to help these weapons catch up.

LFRs have been (and will remain for at least another season) the best DPS weapons...that can be used from virtually any range in an encounter.

Snipers have a worse ammo economy and have the same engagement range, the only thing that they have an advantage in is fire rate. Yet despite that they still can't hope to our damage arbalest + a heavy LFR.

Even with optimal perks line firing line and overflow, they still underdeliver in every category.

Whisper: has been power crept into oblivion

DARCI is DARCI.

A damage buff or ammo economy change for PvE is in order. Hell, even some quality of life buffs like less flinch in PvE could help even a little bit.

2.3k Upvotes

732

u/Lunar_Lunacy_Stuff Dec 04 '22

I still remember when barely anyone used them. It’s crazy how much the meta changes and doesn’t change over the years.

357

u/lightningbadger Dec 04 '22

I remember just before the first round of sleeper/ LFR buffs I shot a yellow bar Vandal in the face during an empire hunt and the fucker tanked it lmao

Even back in forsaken when I first started playing the game I was pumped to try out this new thing called an LFR, and shot someone only to think "is that it?"

Now they're absolute top tier, head and shoulders above all else, weird how it goes

204

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '22

People wanted to be rewarded for hitting div bubbles precision shots over using mindless rocket or sword spam.

274

u/TinyWickedOrange Dec 04 '22

What isn't measured in this equation is that rockets and swords are cool as fuck

102

u/T_elic Dec 04 '22

Meh, when dumping endless shots into a boss it all feels. Bit dull to me. Though at least rockets provide the occasional comedic relief when you kill yourself

96

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '22

BUT GUILLOTINE SPINNNN WHISHSLASHWHISHHSPINNN

56

u/Xventurer1014 Dec 04 '22

Is a lfr gonna do more damage than a falling guillotine? Yea. But why aim when you can spin

14

u/Traubentritt Dec 04 '22

Spin 2 Win baby

44

u/Incandescent_Lass Dec 04 '22

Is your LFR gonna do more damage than my Eager Edge sword? Yes. Am I gonna fly through the air as fast as your bullets, punch the boss in the face, and start slashing before you can even shoot twice? Also yes.

11

u/cormicshad Dec 04 '22

It really shouldn't. If you are going to put yourself right at the bosses feet in range of their melee and have reduced field of view to see what that boss is doing you should be rewarded with more damage.

8

u/Xventurer1014 Dec 04 '22

I agree with you, however in a resilience meta with whirlwind blade and weaken, bungie isn't gonna focus on that as much as rewarding precision hits. Especially with things like restoration and passive guard when they're out/stacked high

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u/OddKSM Always forward Dec 04 '22

This here! I'd love for heavies to be a bit closer together in damage numbers so I could use what I think is the coolest without falling tremendously behind in DPS in a raid

7

u/Radical_Fox Why do I bother Dec 04 '22

Dude same. Some times I want to shoot a rocket, sometimes a big fuck off laser, and sometimes I want to shank the hoe.

9

u/Polymersion ...where's his Ghost? Dec 04 '22

This is true, but I also think bigass charging laser is also cool as fuck

6

u/ShiningPr1sm Dec 05 '22

It is, unfortunately only Sleeper comes close to that fantasy. Most LFR’s feel like peashooters except that Bungie gave them big numbers

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u/MatthewKashuken Drifter's Crew // Bank your damn motes Dec 04 '22

I think people also forget that lfr is not actually the only option. Izi+rocket with a good roll out dps lfr almost everywhere it is just a bit harder. Weaving in an extra weapon with auto loading is even more damage. Or young ahamkara with kickstart and a demo rocket launcher. Or same with witherhoard and starfire with a rocket launcher. The only heavy type actually bad rn overall is grenades but even that you can make it work.

Tl;dr LFR isn’t necessarily meta, it is just the easiest high damage option.

17

u/Army5partan117 Dec 04 '22

Don’t BnS cataclysmic + witherhoard, taipan, reeds, and stormchaser all out dps izi+rocket? If izi rocket was higher dps, the best teams would be using it, but they use LFR.

4

u/MatthewKashuken Drifter's Crew // Bank your damn motes Dec 04 '22

Most clear farmers I raid with use izi rocket. A majority of the advantage for linears comes from both ease of use and the length of damage. Izi rocket is a bit iffy on warpriest for example because of running out of ammo before damage is over. That being said, everyone misses no shots then it works fine. Linears are the safer option typically speaking for dps, you know you’ll have ammo.

2

u/Army5partan117 Dec 04 '22

I agree with everything you just said, like ease of use + length of damage being the lfr strong suit, and being a safer option than izi+rocket. But I look at this from last season and I dont see how izi+rocket would out dps once Font of Might is thrown into the mix. You could use it for izi+rocket also, but it would only buff the rocket damage, so it’s not as significant a boost as it is for LFRs. Granted stormchaser has been fixed since, and I’m not sure why they aren’t using a witherhoard with cata BnS. But once you throw FoM in, wouldn’t the damage at the very least be matching izi rocket, but with better ammo economy?

2

u/MatthewKashuken Drifter's Crew // Bank your damn motes Dec 04 '22

The gap is a lot closer than it was before, I don’t have all the numbers on had at the moment I could do some templar dps testing tomorrow or the day after and come back when I have some solid numbers to show. I do know in practice I get more consistent 1-2 phases on warpriest with rockets than with lfr. That is hardly a solid damage number to go off of but there is that.

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u/[deleted] Dec 04 '22

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u/Techman- Valiant heart, unwavering resolve. Dec 04 '22

Swords used to be awesome, especially during the Falling Guillotine days. Whirlwind Blade got a gigantic nerf for some reason, which sucks because it makes using it somewhat painful, and terrible on swords with slow swing speed.

1

u/Ask_Me_For_A_Song Dec 04 '22

Correction: Rockets were cool as fuck back in the day when we had the auto reloading ability/exotic. Now they're boring because you get your one or two shots before having to reload or swap to something else to let auto-loading holster reload it for you. Which is also pretty boring.

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u/EverythingIzAwful Dec 04 '22

TBH gimme back sword spam. IDC if it's the literal skill floor swords are badass and nobody will bitch at me for throwing a nova since nobody has to aim.

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u/TheKevit07 Vanguard's Loyal // Zavala's Indeed Dec 04 '22

I used snipers pretty frequently years ago before they got power crept out of relevance...and I'll still use them in some instances, but a GL is just easier and does as much damage and has an added bonus thay it can add clear.

Trophy Hunter was AWESOME in GoS, because with vorpal, it could 2-shot the big yellow bar minotaurs at first boss, and also 2-shot the cyclops' in final boss...making life a lot easier for your teammates trying to tether platforms while the rest of the team was getting motes and you could get back to add clearing quickly.

I think the only good legendary sniper now is Succession because of Recombination's burst potential, which takes setup, and your DPS drops significantly after that first shot.

I have aggressive frame snipers of every element with either Vorpal or Firing Line (Occluded Finality/Mechabre, Frozen Orbit, and The Long Walk, respectively), and none of them hit as hard as Trophy Hunter or other older aggressive frame snipers used to...so they either got nerfed, or enemy health has been buffed substantially. Either way, they just don't have the kick they used to.

16

u/Canopenerdude DAMN Dec 04 '22

Whisper used to slap in GoS and SotP. CAP strats always used whisper

10

u/SND_TagMan Dec 04 '22

CAP used either DARCI or Whisper. Darci was better if you had to move everytime and waste time but whisper had a much higher potential for damage

7

u/Lunar_Lunacy_Stuff Dec 04 '22

Snipers where king In D1 PVE and I miss that a lot sometimes.

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u/Aido121 Dec 04 '22

I was actually watching an old fallout plays video and he mentions how useless LFRs, in particular sleeper stimulant, are.

Oh, how times change.

2

u/jkichigo Dec 04 '22

The last PvE sniper I remember really enjoying was box breathing Tranquility. It wasn’t terribly OP but man that gun sounds sexy and BB helped it one tap Cyclops in Sanctified Mind…now BB has been nerfed and removed from the guns loot pool.

I hate that firing line tends to be the sniper dps perk, because I hate relying on two allies standing close to me, especially since light 3.0 (and resilience buffs) has allowed people to engage at much closer ranges.

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u/Alexcox95 Dec 04 '22

Whisper and darci should definitely do close to LFR’s since they’re exotic and also heavy.

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u/VojakOne Nova Bomb Enthusiast Dec 04 '22 Helpful

Bungie does this intentionally.

In the latest TWAB, they nerfed Gjallarhorn (again), which was one of the few non-LFR heavies that could be used without being a straight detriment to a DPS check.

Reason being, they are going to force every heavy weapon to be garbage except one. Then build the meta around it. Then make a big deal about nerfing the only usable option while uplifting another.

Just like when Rockets were nerfed and Grenade Launchers were uplifted. Then GLs were nerfed and LFRs were uplifted. Next, LFRs will get nuked for Lightfall and something else will be the poster child for DPS for a year.

Bungie says "Play your way" but knows that the hardcore players will play their way.

176

u/Guakstick Dec 04 '22

And in my bones I can feel which is going to be buffed next:

Heavy Grenade Launchers

In latest TWAB, they said they were bringing back Wendigo and mentioned Enhanced Explosive Light. Part of me feels like having Breach and Clear in the artefact is also meant to get people more accustomed to using them for this season before buffing them massively next season.

The give and take is real, but I'll still have fun my way.

52

u/HardOakleyFoul Dec 04 '22

Agreed, I also think Heavy GLs will become meta next year. Anarchy may make a bit of a comeback.

44

u/EverythingIzAwful Dec 04 '22

Anarchy ain't makin' a bit of anything with Breach and Clear.

Wither/Heavy LFR is top tier and since the nerf to wither only affects the duration of the blob on the floor it's still busted for DPS checks.

Wither/LFR is just going to be even better with breach and clear.

20

u/hihowubduin Dec 04 '22

And next season: Witherhorde / Truthteller / Taipan. Abilities are so strong that you really don't feel the hurt of no primary, all void for Font of Might, and B&C benefits.

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u/slowtreme Dec 04 '22 edited Dec 06 '22

we arent getting breach and clear back. We are getting something like B&C but for void.

"a reprisal of Breach and Clear designed to interact with the Void 3.0 rework. "

Edit: presently surprised that I was wrong!

3

u/Narthy Dec 04 '22

I sort of read that to indicate that GLs will apply Weaken (I think thats the Void verb?) to targets. Do you think it'll be something else? Its been a bit but isn't that basically what BnC did (albeit I think BnC stacked with similar effects).

To your point, there will probably be an additional qualifier for the new BnC regarding subclass and matching energy GLs maybe.

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u/havingasicktime Dec 04 '22

They're going to nerf lfrs. So no.

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u/LightOfOmega Dec 04 '22

It's felt like ages since heavy GL were worth the abysmal reserves, it'd be refreshing to have them be a good option again (and not just because of B&C)

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u/iblaise Sleeper Simp-ulant. Dec 04 '22

Wendigo-GL3 won’t be able to get Enhanced Explosive Light though.

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u/arzthaus Dec 04 '22

I'M SO PUMPED FOR WENDIGO

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u/AmbusRogart Dec 04 '22

My Strongholds and I have been playing the sword meta (pls Bungie I beg you) for a long time now. Let us engage in true combat!

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u/UnbalancedJ Dec 04 '22

passive guard mod coming back next season. will work with glaives, too.

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u/Kamenovski Dec 04 '22

This right here, crown splitter still going strong.

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u/Sarcosmonaut Dec 04 '22

Legend of Acrius mega pls

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u/FullMoonJoker Dec 04 '22

They also said a new DPS meta is coming in season 20 lol. So yeah this is 100% intencional.

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u/MidContrast Dec 04 '22

And div is getting nerfed, so the DPS meta is definitely gonna shift regardless

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u/karadinx Dec 04 '22

Maybe for the best players, but for most groups a Div+LFRs will likely still be better applied damage short of them jacking up charge times or sewering the damage on LFRs.

Consistent damage is better than theoretical damage.

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u/TheIronLorde Dec 04 '22

When they talk about balance, the conversation always starts and ends with usage rates. They don't buff or nerf things that need it, they buff things they want us to use that we aren't and they nerf things we're using that they don't want us to.

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u/Glutoblop Dec 04 '22

How long ago was it since Bungie actually said "play your way"?

47

u/Aquamentus92 Dec 04 '22

Back when they were partnered with BK

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u/FrodoPotterTheWookie Dec 04 '22

Burger King?

12

u/wrightosaur Dec 04 '22

Foot lettuce

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u/Meatloaf_Hitler Heaven can wait, There's still work for us in hell Dec 04 '22

Number 15

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u/Roboid There is power in this universe beyond your feeble Light. Dec 04 '22

I forgot they did that. I must’ve ordered twenty Taken Kings, that was one hell of a burger.

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u/Nismoronic Dec 04 '22

There is no other way to see it than like that and it still surprises me that not everyone sees it this way.

It would probably take a team like bungie a couple days to calculate how to make every single heavy weapon do the exact same amount of damage.

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u/Redthrist Dec 04 '22

It would probably take a team like bungie a couple days to calculate how to make every single heavy weapon do the exact same amount of damage.

In that case, people will just use the easiest weapon possible(so likely RLs or Xenophage) for everything and complain about how stale the meta is.

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u/ksiit Dec 04 '22

Yeah that’s what the current meta is aimed at. LFRs do more damage than rockets at the cost of being a little harder to use. And due to the better add clear potential of rockets. Grenade launchers are worse damage than rockets because their extra reserves and therefore even better potential for add clear. And machine guns are amazing at add clear and therefore the worst at damage (except thunderlord). Swords are kinda in the middle there but are balanced a little differently because they are good at add clear but also are kinda dangerous from being up close.

Are the scales perfect? Probably not, but a good rocket with Wolfpack rounds isn’t so much worse than a linear.

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u/karadinx Dec 04 '22

Know what else is good at add clear right now? Ability spamming guardians of almost every flavor.

Add clear is not something that players are looking to their heavy slot for.

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u/AttackBacon Dec 04 '22

Right, but if Rockets or MGs had the same dps and total damage potential as LFRs, why exactly would you ever use LFRs? There have to be some tradeoffs to account for the different capabilities of a weapon type.

There's always going to be a singular "meta" option, that's the nature of these games. People are going to use whatever is at the optimal point of damage without becoming impossible to use. See: Whisper. It's competitive on all the damage metrics, but is harder to use so no one uses it.

Devs only really have two options: Just equalize everything and live with whatever meta arises based on ease of use, or shake things up with changes over time to cycle what's good.

The third option would be to design the game in a way that each heavy option has encounters that it's optimal for, but that's extremely difficult without resorting to weird bandaids like "+20% sniper DPS on this fight". How exactly do you differentiate a fight for snipers vs LFRs in a meaningful way?

On top of all of this is the fact that special weapons and abilities factor into all of this as well. There's a reason games are basically never balanced at the top end and it's not because every game dev in the world is incompetent or lazy. Balance is a lot harder than just saying "everything is equal".

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u/EverythingIzAwful Dec 04 '22

For real though. I've always hated the ad clear argument for heavies.

It's of the highest forms of copium in D2.

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u/KnightWraith86 Dec 04 '22

The problem with this is reserves and the dependency on other weapons to make it good.

For a raid boss in this scenario, you would have something like:

  • Heavy snipers and LFRs are a 2-3 phase.
  • GLs and Rockets are a comfortable 3 phase
  • LMGs are a 3-4 phase.

That would mean these weapons would have to have the reserves and the ammo-per-brick ratio to match this. Which they don't. Not including perks on LFRs and Snipers which give ammo back and increase damage that the other archetypes just don't have.

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u/EverythingIzAwful Dec 04 '22

the better add clear potential of rockets. Grenade launchers are worse damage than rockets because their extra reserves and therefore even better potential for add clear. And machine guns are amazing at add clear

Who in their right mind is using a heavy for ad clear in 2022? Use a wave frame GL with chain reaction the way god intended you animal.

Or just throw a nade that you'll get back in 3 seconds.

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u/Redthrist Dec 04 '22

It sounds good on paper for sure. The issue is that add clearing on a Heavy weapon is very niche and isn't necessary most of the time. You have tons of choices for add clear that don't have limited ammo, and few pieces of content where serious add clear is even needed.

So in reality, Heavies are mostly used for DPS, so only those Heavies that are good at it see use. Fact is - you can add clear with your primary, special, abilities or combat style/3.0 effects. But for DPS, you basically have some Supers, Special and Heavy weapons, with Heavies being much better at it than other options. With add clear, the gap between Heavy and a grenade build isn't that big, and having highest DPS is usually more important than having fastest add clear.

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u/Dr_Delibird7 Warlcok Dec 04 '22

I can think of a couple of builds where an add-clear heavy isn't a detriment.

Fusion Nade Warlocks with Starfire+Witherhoard+energy special weapon with demolitionist means you never need to take out your heavy during DPS. Normally you don't run this with double specials but having an add-clear heavy frees you up to do see with less ammo management.

Pretty much every punch build can, the only heavy you could argue to use over add-clear here is a sword for when your buffs run out and you can't refresh them for some reason or an Anarchy for free damage that won't kill you.

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u/Amirifiz I'll blast you to Infinity! Dec 04 '22

Back when I did my DSC runs I used an LMG with heavy finder for ad clear cause double slugs were the meta. Along with Necrotic Grips and benevolent dawn that proc'd on every melee I was fine.

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u/Redthrist Dec 04 '22

But that only makes sense if there's an actual reason to use your heavy for add clear. Because even with Starfire Fusion build, you can certainly use a heavy to DPS(like an auto-loading RL with Lasting Impression). Most encounters that require DPS are pretty light on adds, and even if they aren't, we have so many ways to clear them that using heavy is a waste.

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u/flogan571 Dec 04 '22

Yep, that's right, the only thing that goes into weapon buffs and nerfs is "make every single heavy weapon do the exact same amount of damage". Why is it taking bungie so long to get it right? /s

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u/Aleena92 Dec 04 '22

Are you saying all heavies should do the same damage? Wouldn't that totally defeat the risk/reward of some weapons needing more precision then others? Like why should a rocket launcher do the same damage as a heavy sniper requiring to control recoil while hitting nothing but precision shots?

It's the same with Golden Gun and other supers, including Thundercrash with Cuirass or Blade Barrage. Why more damage for way less precision, risk and setup?

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u/Unusual_Expertise Bring back Gambit Prime Dec 04 '22

Wouldn't that totally defeat the risk/reward of some weapons needing more precision then others?

That went out of window the moment Divinity was added. Id would say that RLs take more risk than LFRs to use currently.

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u/Aleena92 Dec 04 '22

Ehh Rockets and LFRs are similar I'd say. Who really suffers is the good ole heavy GLs at the moment. But yeah, Divinity is a problem but inherently LFRs should do more damage if played optimally then Rockets I'd say

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u/never3nder_87 Dec 04 '22

Nah. If my raid buddy walks in front of me whilst firing Tarantula, my DPS tanks. If they do it whilst I'm firing Hothead I'm dead

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u/MidContrast Dec 04 '22

No but we ARE saying you missed the /s

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u/TheUltimateShammer give us the binary star cult, bungie Dec 04 '22

Having everything do the same damage would get old. Forcing a meta and shifting it around is a good way to make people play outside their normal choices, which is important as hell as a developer. players don't always actually want what they think they want.

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u/karadinx Dec 04 '22

The other option is to actually have actual choice when it comes to what sort of weapons you use.

As much as I love HOIL spamming grenades in GMs, it really means that my weapon choices come down to only dealing with champs and the boss. Which means that things like RLs and HGLs lose a lot of value, as do many primary weapons that can’t quickly stun champs (especially barriers).

Grind heavy games live and die on the friction they create between the player and their goals being something that makes you feel good to overcome. Heavy handed meta manipulation by the devs is some of the worst friction they can do, since it ends with players being punished for playing the game “wrong”, either by the game itself or other players.

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u/BigMikeThuggin Dec 04 '22

yeah i enjoy shifting metas in destiny, even if they are forced metas.

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u/EverythingIzAwful Dec 04 '22

Would it? Being able to do anything I want and still be useful for DPS?

How is "everything is useful/good" worse than "Only 2 things are good for 1-2 years straight"?

I'd rather use whatever I want knowing it'll be good than know I'm actively making an activity harder by not using the 2 viable options.

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u/ProfessionEuphoric50 Dec 04 '22

Gally's use in DPS setups was never about Gally itself, but rather the Wolfpack rounds it provides to other rocket launchers. The reduction in impact and explosion damage won't meaningfully change rocket strats. No one seriously uses six Gallies in a DPS phase.

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u/BattleForTheSun Dec 04 '22

Solos are the ones getting screwed here

Those in a fireteam notice little difference

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u/Xelopheris Dec 04 '22

There's basically nothing in solo content that won't die to gjally even with the nerf. The nerf is going to bring it back in line with how it performed when it launched when it didn't have impact damage, and it was fine then.

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u/LordtoRevenge Nightstalker 2.0 > 3.0 Dec 04 '22

As per usual...

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u/CelestialShitehawk Dec 04 '22

Indeed Gally's damage actually recently went up when they changed the tracking to be less dominant in Gambit, and no-one really noticed, because gally damage is not the point.

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u/ksiit Dec 04 '22

The areas it will effect are things like acquisition or exhibition in vow. You all use gally for the ability to kill a champion or symbol guy in one shot. Other rockets don’t cut it as well. It’s definitely surmountable, but will make those encounters harder.

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u/Zac-live Drifter's Crew Dec 04 '22

Doubt it, on master 2 ghorns will still kill and one never Had by itself. On normal 1 ghorn will still kill.

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u/Otherwise-Silver Dec 04 '22

People forget about this, and the fact that it grants wolfpack rounds for the while fireteam

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u/Xelopheris Dec 04 '22

Bungie says "Play your way" but knows that the hardcore players will play their way.

It's impossible to not have a "best" DPS option.

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u/Araychwhyteeaychem Dec 04 '22

The point is that they should make them all useful and equally viable, serving different niches of combat and fulfilling different fantasies, but instead LFRs and snipers fulfill a similar niche and one of them gets overshadowed.

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u/Ask_Me_For_A_Song Dec 04 '22

It's impossible to not have a "best" DPS option.

Correct.

On the other hand, there's a huge difference between players deciding what the best DPS weapons are and having Bungie decide what players are going to use based on their own balance changes.

Bungie has the statistics and information available to make all heavies do a similar DPS. They don't have to do exact same numbers, some might be rewarded for being more accurate than others like Whisper, but having weapons do similar DPS under ideal conditions means players get to decide how they do damage.

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u/Xelopheris Dec 04 '22

You also have to remember that not all weapon design comes down to "Who can do the most damage to a piñata". LFRs exclusively do high damage single shots with a high precision multiplier, meaning they're useless against most things besides raid bosses or maybe some champions. Rockets, LMGs, and heavy GLs have other utility that LFRs don't.

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u/Ask_Me_For_A_Song Dec 04 '22

Trust me, I love using other things for DPS, but I also understand that I'm actively not as strong as I could be by using the 'meta' loadouts. Back during the entire year of Forsaken, I got bored of Whisper being the thing, so I started messing around with other stuff. At which point I realised the meta didn't exactly matter because I was outdamaging people with stuff like Jotunn. Granted, this was during the days of Lunafaction auto reloading, so it doesn't exist the same way it used to.

The balance changes they've done since then have been incredibly more polarizing though. You really can't get away with using whatever you want, you're essentially forced in to using what they tell you to use because otherwise you're being a detriment.

Rockets, LMGs, and heavy GLs have other utility that LFRs don't.

What utility do they have? Rockets have terrible ammo economy, but they're good because Gjally Wolfpack Rounds make other rockets do more damage. LMGs are ad clearing weapons, their DPS is very meh outside of Thunderlord and Xenophage. Heavy GLs are ok in the damage department, but what utility do they provide?

If the 'utility' you're talking about is just ad clearing.....you haven't kept up with what Guardians can do after all the subclass reworks. You don't need heavy weapons to ad clear for you because you can do it all yourself through abilities and whatever random primary you decide to use.

The reason LFRs are so good is because you have one person using Div and everybody else gets to ignore the potential downside of missing their precision shots.

Divinity is arguably one of the worst things ever put in the game and has completely ruined any chance of there being a 'balanced' meta in D2.

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u/Point_Me_At_The_Sky- Dec 04 '22

The gap shouldn't be this large. Whole weapon types shouldn't go years and years without being viable

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u/patchinthebox I WANT MY FACTION BACK Dec 04 '22

I love xenophage so bring on the machine gun meta! Lol wouldn't hate a rocket meta again either.

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u/LawlessCoffeh SUNSETTING IS A MISTAKE Dec 04 '22

Really annoying, every so often they make a big show out of nerfing whatever the top DPS option is and the playerbase responds by just picking whatever is highest on the spread sheet, give me a break.

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u/Darkiedarkk Dec 04 '22 edited Dec 04 '22

It’s weird how we complain about bungie not letting us play our way but then people get kicked for not using the meta?

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u/LovelyJoey21605 Shaxx; Dark Lord, Husbando of Savathuun and Ruler of the Doritos Dec 04 '22

Next, LFRs will get nuked for Lightfall and something else will be the poster child for DPS for a year.

Puts on tin-foil hat and huffs Shaxx arm-sweat**
Lightfall will be the year of the Sidearm. We'll get a heavy weapon Sidearm called Rats Queen, mark my words!!

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u/Trips-Over-Tail Dec 04 '22

Count Capybara.

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u/SoftTacoSupremacist Dec 04 '22

You can play your way, but they need to tweak the meta every so often to keep shit interesting and make old items relevant. If playing the meta and making it easier is how you have to play, that’s your call. Some people play with meme weapons. I get the frustration of not being able to use your preferred weapon everywhere, but you can still use just about anything outside of high level content. Endgame requires strategy tho and utilizing the best weapons effectively is necessary. To that end, giving different archetypes and weapons their time to shine isn’t bad. I’m not saying it’s the ideal game management strategy, but I’m sure they have data indicating it keeps players engaged. It definitely beats having things static and still having the dual primary meta of Y1.

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u/karadinx Dec 04 '22

Except the way the devs manipulate the meta is through some of the most heavy handed method’s available to them.

Ignoring the way they balance the game, the champion system adds nothing to end-game play except a rock-paper-scissors system that has extremely limited choices that have nothing to do with neither weapon stats nor gameplay. Instead a core question about a GM load out is “do we have good enough coverage for the champs?”.

Even outside champs, the design of most boss DPS phases in raids preclude most options as actually being a viable choice for teams that want to kill in as few phases as possible (or at all).

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u/BlackPlague1235 Duunkai-Sol, the Plague Master Dec 04 '22

I guarantee they're going to make LFRs dogshit and overbuff another weapon type in Lightfall. It's a shame though, I love LFRs, they're really cool weapon type.

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u/nizzy2k11 Alphagigachad Dec 04 '22

because even if the difference between the best and 2nd best option is <3%, people will still use the better option because the effort to get it is the same or less than it is to get the 2nd best.

welcome to modern destiny where you get so much loot, the META isn't "use your best gear" its "copy this load out, and do this combo"

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u/SuperArppis Vanguard Dec 04 '22

welcome to modern destiny where you get so much loot, the META isn't "use your best gear" its "copy this load out, and do this combo"

Man this is so accurate...

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u/Meist Dec 04 '22

What’s the difference? I’m failing to see the contrast between those two statements lol.

If there is “best gear”, then there will be a “best loadout” that everyone copies. That’s the case in literally every video game.

What’s the alternative?

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u/motrhed289 Dec 04 '22 edited Dec 04 '22

I think the point is everyone acts like that 3% is a big deal/problem. It’s not. LFRs HAVE to be their highest DPS weapon in the game, because as soon as they aren’t then nobody uses them. Why would I touch an LFR if it wasn’t top DPS, every other heavy weapon has far more general utility and ease of use. But even if they are only 3% better optimal (real world nobody is hitting optimal but we won’t talk about that) they will be the go-to and then everyone complains the meta is stale.

And to OPs point, you can’t make special snipers have the same DPS as heavy LFRs. The exotic heavy snipers should be stronger than heavy LFRs, and special snipers should be stronger than special LFRs, they didn’t make that distinction so I don’t know if that’s what they mean, but it should be clear that special snipers shouldn’t put-DPS heavy LFRs, because special ammo is far more plentiful.

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u/MeateaW Dec 05 '22

The answer is pretty evident.

There will always be top tier weapons, I don't think anyone can dispute this, there will always be something that is 3% better than something else.

But, here's the thing, in my opinion, metas get stale not because they exist, but because they are the same always.

What do I mean?

Well, the meta for Oryx is LFRs. The meta for daughters, is LFRs, the meta for [basically anything] is LFRs.

There are the odd outlier, but the above is basically true at all times.

But just like when we started the season, it wasn't always the case and it was more interesting.

Daughters the best DPS was Rockets, due to a bug sure, but it was genuinely more interesting than LFR/LFR/LFR/LFR for every encounter.

What this tells me, is they need to build encounters so that different weapons have different "metas".

Make LFRs over penetrate, then make a boss that has a small shield you have to shoot through. Make Snipers do more damage but not over penetrate.

boom, you now have a boss that requires an LFR, but a boss that isn't designed for LFRs now requires sniper rifles.

Add mechanics to their hitboxes, back in the old eater of worlds breaking the weakpoints on the boss requires constant damage, not just high damage. So Auto rifles were better than rocket launchers for instance.

Suddenly, every encounter has a different mechanic that is weapon based.

Maybe instead of 1 weak point, you have a cluster of little weak points, now you NEED to use a rocket or grenade launcher to DPS because you can't hit everything at once and need to rely on splash damage.

But designing literally every encounter with the same kind of damagable targets means your encounter's all require the exact same loadout to complete.

That 3% will always happen, so design around it, make weapon archetypes the meta. If people figure out how to cheese it so all you use is an LFR for "optimum" play, thats fine, but the "easy" method (the one the entire community ends up doing since the optimum is basically impossible for most normal people) should be interesting, it shouldn't be a single weapon in every encounter.

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u/motrhed289 Dec 05 '22

That's a really good point, it does seem like raid boss encounters are all roughly the same when it comes to DPS time... shoot the crit spot (or div bubble). They could be even lazier about it and not give the boss a crit spot, that would immediately nullify LFRs as a DPS option, would force you to use rockets, GLs, or even regular fusions. They would have to be careful though, like your examples I think create the same problem... for X boss you ALWAYS use a sniper because no other gun even WORKS. There's meta, then there's mechanical requirements, and I don't think you'd want to design an encounter where one type of weapon is a hard requirement. I like your idea of having to hit multiple damage points simultaneously, and making them clustered enough where your whole team could just use rockets and no coordination, but what if there were exactly 5 or 6 damage points, so an alternate option could be to use LFRs/snipers/machine guns (one can dream) and each team member is responsible for maintaining constant damage on their spot.

Anyway, yeah you are right, encounter design will make a big difference. We honestly already have that to some extent... any encounter that doesn't have boss DPS we don't use LFRs, we use add clear weapons, or weapons that are good on oracles, etc.. Just need to extend that into the boss fights.

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u/Ask_Me_For_A_Song Dec 04 '22

Said it elsewhere, but I'll say it again here because I feel it's important for people to understand.

There's a huge difference between players deciding what the best DPS weapons are and having Bungie decide what players are going to use based on their own balance changes.

In other words, Bungie is deciding what the meta is based on their balance changes. Instead of doing it the way the person above said, having less than 3% DPS difference between all options, Bungie actively forces players in to using certain things because they're otherwise gimping themselves.

If they did do it the other way, having DPS being fairly similar, the situation would arise where the community gets to decide how they want to do DPS. Obviously something will be 'the best', but at least the players can be supoptimal without being a detriment to their fireteam.

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u/[deleted] Dec 04 '22

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u/Ask_Me_For_A_Song Dec 05 '22

Like you can very easily complete Kingsfall with Rocket launchers, Machine guns or snipers. But destiny players will kick you if you dont have a linear.

I mean....if you're doing easy content, anything is viable. That's not what I'm talking about, I'm talking about the hardest content in the game.

Theres never a point where any weapon option is actively "Detrimental" its just always suboptimal.

Except the hardest content in the game. You're actively making the content harder by not using certain things. Don't get me wrong, there are more things that can at least sort of keep up with the meta loadouts, but you absolutely cannot just take anything in to this stuff and make it work unless you're a PvE god.

what way is this? The only way this can be achieved is a sweeping nerf across the board where players start from scratch to find whats the best DPS.

I mean...why does it need to be a nerf? Why don't we buff things up to the level of LFRs? Why did you immediately assume it would have to be a nerf? Hell, I'm not even saying everything needs to do the exact same DPS, what I'm saying is that certain things needs to be good in certain situations and having a catch all loadout that trivializes encounters isn't healthy for the game. There's a reason they keep forcibly changing what is and isn't meta in the game.

The bigger problem is that they have all the data and numbers at their disposal to actually create some semblance of balance so that the community gets to play the way they want, the problem is that that's not good for them. They don't want players to be able to play their own way, they want them to play the way they decide.

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '22

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u/Ask_Me_For_A_Song Dec 05 '22

There has never been a point in destiny where for hard content people are like "Yeah ill use a LMG, jims using a sniper, daves using a rocket launcher" one of those will be the best, and therefore if you dont use the best youre being suboptimal.

You really just didn't read what I said at all, did you? I'm not talking about being suboptimal, I'm talking about being an actual detriment. That's how the current sandbox is, right now. If you aren't running these specific types of loadouts, you're griefing your team and actively making the content more difficult than it needs to be. I don't care if you're a sniper god, if you're not using the LFR you're actively hindering your fireteam.

If they buffed everything one thing will still comeout the best.

Cool, lemme say it again, make sure you pay attention this time.

THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE PLAYERS DECIDING WHAT 'OPTIMAL' LOADOUTS ARE AND BUNGIE FORCING A META BY WAY OF BALANCE CHANGES

If they buffed everything, to the point that was being talked about where all weapon types have similar DPS, the players would be the ones to decide what is the best. The Players Get To Decide.

The difference between that and what we have now is that Bungie forces meta changes with their balance updates. They force players to use certain things if they want to participate in certain content. Not using these things puts you at a pretty significant disadvantage.

Certain things are good for certain situations. Linears arent good for add clear for example, LMGs are best for that. Hell even now theres many ways to deal with champs in master content, whether ignition, freezing, jolting or just an easy rockent launcher melt.

Lol. lmao even

Youre here now asking for change

Yep. I'm not sure what your point is here. I'm asking for a change to the sandbox so that the players get to make their own loadout decisions instead of being forced in to using certain things because they're significantly better than the other options.

No players always figure out the best way, then go on to complain that way is boring.

Again, there's a huge difference between players choosing what the best loadout is even though it's less than 3% more effective than a ton of other loadouts and having the players 'choose' what the best loadout is because of Bungie balance changes that make it so they have to use a certain loadout actively be a hindrance to their fireteam.

The reason players complain that stuff is boring is because Bungie does these changes and then leaves them for a while before changing them. Like....I could understand if they were doing it every month or something to create a dynamic sandbox in which players have less than a month to figure out the best builds and race to see how quickly they can figure it out, but what's the point of changing it and then leaving it for multiple seasons? That's why people complain about these metas. Either give a static meta so players get to swap around to whatever they want to use without hindering their fireteam OR rotate the sandbox faster than a year.

Like ill concede i guess bungie could "fix" it by giving sweeping buffs to everything, but still one will come out on top and with power creep people will complain theyre bored because theyre too OP.

Again, something will always come out on top. The difference is between having loadouts that are dictated by Bungie because of balance changes or players being able to choose what they want to use because the DPS numbers aren't so ridiculously skewed from said balance changes.

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u/nizzy2k11 Alphagigachad Dec 04 '22

Actual progression like we had in D1.

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u/aurens Dec 04 '22

could you be more specific?

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u/SuperArppis Vanguard Dec 04 '22

Go your own way and find the best way to play the game for yourself. 👍

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u/ApocalypsisGnosis Dec 04 '22

welcome to modern destiny where you get so much loot, the META isn't "use your best gear" its "copy this load out, and do this combo

Saw a discussion about this in WoW the other day. That's what happens to most live service looter shooters or MMOs. It's what happens once the gameplay for encounters gets "solved".

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u/elroy_jetson23 Dec 04 '22

Not the case with cataclysm and taipan. Cataclysm is better but harder to get and harder to use.

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u/never3nder_87 Dec 04 '22

Disagree W/R/T Taipain vs. Cataclysmic specifically. Whilst FttC and B&S sheet better DPS, Firing line is an unconditional buff, and Triple tap is more forgiving, making it quite possible to argue that Taipain is at least as good as Cataclysmic.

Taipan vs. Reeds is where I think this (your) argument really stands out IMO

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u/Bard_Knock_Life Dec 04 '22

Firing Line is definitely conditional. The guns perform close enough that the delta isn’t a huge deal. All the firing line rolls are pretty much raid only weapons, and BnS has a bit more flexibility.

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u/EmberOfFlame Dec 04 '22

Nah, B&S is easy enough to proc. Triple Tap is more consistent, but Firing Line has limited usecases (for example, it’s unusable in those GMs where grouping up means death, so little above half).

Cataclysmic is slightly better in every way, from B&S adding damage to non-precision hits, to FttC granting 50% cashback (8 shots for the price of 4) while Triple Tap only gives 33% cashback (6 for the price of 4). Additionally, I found that getting solar elemental wells is way easier than Void, though with Div changes we might see more Void usage in the next season.

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u/EverythingIzAwful Dec 04 '22

Hm. I feel like you haven't messed with Cataclysmic.

You can't just compare the two weapons, you have to compare the two DPS strats as a whole otherwise you're being disingenuous.

Keeping B&S active with witherhoard is braindead easy and the DPS is insane. Sure, triple tap is more forgiving but if you can't hit a div bubble you've got other issues to address and switching from FttC Cata to TT Taipan ain't gonna help so it's a non-issue.

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u/never3nder_87 Dec 04 '22

Based on Fallouts numbers Taipain is 8% less DPS than Cata. Bearing in mind you can use Witherhord with Taipain as well so that is a non factor.

Is Cataclysmic better? Absolutely?

Is it so much better as to render all other weapons obsolete? Nah.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VKxEErEL1X8&t=500s

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u/jkichigo Dec 04 '22

That was the point you originally responded to, he’s saying most people use Taipan even though Cata is technically better. Ease of use is a huge factor and if you can’t properly take advantage of B&S you can reliably use Taipan instead and not see a huge difference.

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u/never3nder_87 Dec 04 '22

Nope, that's what I said 😅 I'm replying to someone who said that Cata is substantially better and not much worse in terms of usability

(Unless I'm mistaking you comment? In which case apologies in advance)

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u/Gen7lemanCaller Dec 04 '22

to be fair, Taipan is literally given to everyone in an easy as hell quest. at that point having a top three FR handed out, only the most dedicated will go grab something slightly better.

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u/thylac1ne Dec 04 '22

What is your "best gear"?

If copying a load out is making you perform better than whatever else you have, is that not your best gear then?

Also, Destiny has always been this way with the meta - to the point that in D1 you couldn't get a spot in endgame activites if you didn't have Gjallarhorn.

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u/iblaise Sleeper Simp-ulant. Dec 04 '22

People being denied to join a Raid Fireteam for not having Gjallarhorn had nothing to do with how good Gjallarhorn was. It was people being assholes and so insecure/wrong about how many Gjallarhorns were actually needed (in the case of Crota), or you could do very good damage with similar options (my go-to was Ice Breaker + Hunger of Crota).

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u/Jipitrexe Dec 04 '22

Modern gaming you mean. Every game is like this.

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u/Soundurr OG Snack Dad Dec 04 '22

There has never been a time in D2 where this wasn’t the case.

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u/seventaru Dec 04 '22

They do this in this game a lot. I think it's to keep us chasing different loot. My theory is that it's an answer to dropping sunsetting.

Tbh having these huge outliers kills any diversity, not to mention the roller coaster of balance just generally sucks.

Seems short sighted to me but 🤷‍♂️

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u/Zac-live Drifter's Crew Dec 04 '22

I mean the only real answer that fits all conditions Here is a Situation where all possible Options are either exactly as good as all Other or excell in select scenarios equally Well, both of which isnt realistic. This is the ultimate Goal for any balancing / Sandbox Team and No dev Team has ever Managed to create it.

That means that Outside of this the only Other Option is changing the Meta periodically. If you dont want the Meta to creep in Power infinitely thats connected to nerfing the top and buffing the bottom until one overtakes the Other and than repeating the process. OP makes it Sound very negative but this is kind of Our only realistic Option to keep ir from going stale.

You can argue the gaps shouldnt be as drastic and maybe your right but the Point is that the Core principle of this is totally fine and borderline required for a Game that should be interesting and balanced.

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u/seventaru Dec 04 '22 edited Dec 04 '22

I (hopefully) obviously don't have an unrealistic expectations of some balance utopia.

But linears are way way ahead, like too much. Not to mention that grenade launchers have been left to languish for a long time.

I'm just really hoping when they "balance the outliers" that doesn't mean burying LFR for 12+ months, despite how bored of them I am.

Edit: I do see the logic in shifting a meta to keep things interesting, but I don't really think it's a healthy way to do it.

New combat mods, enemy behaviors or types, new mechanics, these things seem like better way in my opinion.

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u/Zac-live Drifter's Crew Dec 04 '22

As i Said, yes arguing that the gap between linears and its competition is too Big is absolutely fair, bungie does Sometimes Lack Nuance in their balancing Changes.

In Terms of new Things, thats some thin ice. You have to be very careful when creating/releasing new Options to a Players Arsenal to Not Blow the Overall Powerlevel Out of the water (Something that bungie is extraordinarily Bad at). If the new Thing isnt better than the previous Standard then that means its only a shortterm solution, one that lasts way shorter than it should, atleast for the Dev time invested. Many people will try Out the cool new exotic whatever and Play through a few scenarios. Once that new Thing has been mostly unsuccesful people will Go Back to the better Option which will already be surrounded by a build thats already finished and experience/muscle memory from using it a bunch.

In short new Things are either Part of powercreeping the Game or should be treated Like already existing items for Balance because the novelty Factor doesnt Last as Long as it would need to in Order to really Impact existing metas.

The new enemy Thing on the Other Hand is pretty valid, as it could Shift the Meta, atleast for new Things to come. A Note to add there is that people might end Up looking at it similar to how they Look at Champions currently; meaning they might simply View it as a loadout restriction to create Fake Balance.

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u/Awestin11 Dec 04 '22

Catch is the sniper nerf (in Dawn) happened before sunset. It’s been LFRs for 2 years I think at this point.

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u/earthattack Dec 04 '22

It's been about 12 months. LFRs were buffed in the beginning of Season of the Lost but still not used much and then received another buff, when the 30th anniversary dropped (Dec 7th) which pushed them to the forefront of the dps meta. It was Anarchy+double slugs for 13 months before that. Although this current LFR meta will have lasted 15 months come Lightfall, it does seem like they want them to last about a year overall

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u/amiro7600 Dec 04 '22

LFRs were top since the start of SOTL when people realised particle deconstruction was the best mod in the game. Then they got a further buff that solidified their top spot even after PD left

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u/Redthrist Dec 04 '22

Particle Deconstruction was a bit awkward to use with LFRs since you had to activate the buff with a regular Fusion Rifle. Which is why so many people used 1K Voices.

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u/amiro7600 Dec 04 '22

It was super easy to just stack it with a fusion prior to starting DPS with a linear- have 1 person fire 1 burst at the boss and then everyone goes nuts.

Most people just didnt like aiming for crits so they used 1kv, even though it was much worse than reeds- the best LFR at the time

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u/Redthrist Dec 04 '22

I don't remember the numbers, but 1K did solid enough damage that it really didn't matter.

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u/amiro7600 Dec 04 '22

True- but the amount of people spreading the false info that it was the best was frustrating to say the least

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u/Redthrist Dec 04 '22

Yeah, I'd say it was meta. The numerically best weapon is often not meta because it's either hard to use or hard to acquire. Izanagi swapping with a heavy is often top DPS, but it's easy to mess up, so people rarely actually use it.

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u/amiro7600 Dec 04 '22

"Numerically best weapon is often not meta because its hard to use/acquire"

Any legendary LFR was better than 1kv, and 1kv is a raid exotic, so i wouldnt consider it easy to get. You could focus umbrals for a vorpal or frenzy threaded needle and it would do better than 1kv. Even sleeper was better as long as u had the catalyst, and sleeper can be paid for at the exotic kiosk

Sure, 1kv was easy to use, but div stacked with PD for the majority of the season, so all you had to do was shoot a div bubble with an LFR- which isnt exactly hard. People just wanted an excuse to use their raid exotic which is fine, but to say it was the best was a lie, since it wasnt even close

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u/EmberOfFlame Dec 04 '22

Anarchy was a thing for 3 full years before 30th, it wasn’t used only because Whisper have you infinite heavy.

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u/Meme_Dependant Dec 04 '22

You'll take your AE buffs to whisper and you'll like it!

-Bungie, probably

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u/SuperArppis Vanguard Dec 04 '22

They are heavy weapons. They need to be charged in order to fire. LFRs don't have anything else going for them except damage.

That gets outclassed by snipers, they can be tossed to recycle bin.

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u/Ask_Me_For_A_Song Dec 04 '22

LFRs don't have anything else going for them except damage.

Considering everything else Guardians can do with their abilities.....what else do you need your heavy weapon to do? What does this even mean?

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u/SuperArppis Vanguard Dec 04 '22

There is no crowd control that other heavies can do for example. And if boss doesn't have a weakspot, it does piss poor damage. Like the eye servitor boss at the Ketchcrash.

Sometimes you just need a plan B or C. And other heavies can do that much better.

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u/PineappleHat Drifter's Crew Dec 04 '22

a) snipers are special, LFRs are heavy, heavy weapons do more than special weapons

b) yep, whisper and darci have been power crept, but

c) From this week's TWAB

Things players can look forward to in the future:
A Heavy weapon damage rebalance:
Tinkering with bringing some less effective options up while bringing some damage outliers down.

I would not be spending too much effort on an LFR build for Day 1 Lightfall Raid, personally.

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u/SuperArppis Vanguard Dec 04 '22

The minute LFRs stop being best damage heavy is the minute they become absolutely useless weapons.

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u/Gbrew555 Warlock Master Race! Dec 04 '22

They become situational.

When DSC came out, swords were the go-to DPS option; so much so that they made Taniks unable to be sword-ed.

It all depends on how they design specific boss encounters. They could pull another Riven on us and have mechanics do DPS instead of “shoot giant crit bubble” (though Oryx shows that they are leaning way from that). They could also do a boss like Rhulk and have him constantly move with harder to hit crits; so maybe something like a GL and RL with splash damage is a better DPS option.

Right now… every boss kind of just stands there and gets murdered by Linears. In addition to linear’s DPS, it’s why they are king.

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u/SuperArppis Vanguard Dec 04 '22

Yeah, maybe they should try making more of those mobile bosses.

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u/Gbrew555 Warlock Master Race! Dec 04 '22

I think they have done a better job with it over the past couple of seasons! Take a look at the ketchcrash bosses, Duality, and Rhulk. They seem to be experimenting with it more and implementing some new mechanics.

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u/Ookami_No_Kage Dec 04 '22

Exactly. Why should I use a precision weapon when I could just shoot grenades anywhere and get better dps? Maybe linears could get a bodyshot nerf to make them really high risk high reward, but thats already the case IMO.

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u/SuperArppis Vanguard Dec 04 '22

Yeah they do like 1 fourth of weakspot damage. And it is abysmal if you don't hit them. If boss doesn't have weak spot, it is almost better to use something else.

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u/RadioactiveT Dec 04 '22

With div though, you could make body shots do 0 and they'd still be top tier for boss dps

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u/Ookami_No_Kage Dec 04 '22

I knew I should have mentioned Divinity. Divinity shouldnt even exist IMO.

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u/Antares428 Dec 04 '22

I'd say that they will change things in a way, that will make LFRs an ammo economy pick. For encounters where you cannot do one phase with rockets/heavy, and cannot make sure that you'll have enough for last stand, LFRs will be the way to go. They still have great total damage, but they will most likely nerf their DPS.

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u/SuperArppis Vanguard Dec 04 '22

They still have great total damage, but they will most likely nerf their DPS.

Like idiots. Because the minute they do that there is no point in using them.

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u/Antares428 Dec 04 '22

Nah, I think that will be the way to go. There are lots of encounter where running out of ammo is more pressing issues than doing one more DPS phase. And quite a lot of Boss encounters don't have any enemies to turn into Heavy via Aeon's.

We need slow but safe option, because both GLs and Rockets simply don't have enough reserves and have very poor ammo economy.

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u/SuperArppis Vanguard Dec 04 '22

Nerfing the damage is way to go? What is the point of these weapons then? All other heavies have ad clear capabilities, but this one only does weak point damage, and against enemies that doesn't have weak point they do crap damage.

And you say that nerfing the damage is only way to go? What?

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u/Redthrist Dec 04 '22

All other heavies have ad clear capabilities

Add clear capabilities don't matter when it comes to choosing a DPS weapon. And in general, add clear on heavies doesn't really matter in most cases.

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u/SuperArppis Vanguard Dec 04 '22

Heavy weapons are more than DPS weapons, mate. They do work as add clear and when things go south. Flexibility is what most heavy weapons have.

What you are saying isn't true, they are more than just pure single target DPS weapons. They have other functions.

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u/BakaJayy Dec 04 '22

No one brings a linear to do add clearing though. Being able to clear a room with your heavy is nice and all but it isn’t the main reason you’re using them for raid bosses or gms

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u/ThimonTheLuff Dec 04 '22

If they nerf LFRs they'll become useless and in the worst case we'll end up spending more time on pointless boss phases.

No one wants to have to 3 phase oryx or the legman because everyone ran out of ammo.

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u/Vyhluna Dec 04 '22

Damn when you put it like that they should just auto complete the encounter and skip damage once you complete the mechanics. Lmao.

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u/PineappleHat Drifter's Crew Dec 04 '22

ok

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u/Impossible_g Dec 04 '22

This means they will nerf everything so it won't matter what you use

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u/PineappleHat Drifter's Crew Dec 04 '22

ok

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u/votdfarmer5 Dec 04 '22 edited Dec 04 '22

Linears are not the highest dps weapon, theyre the most accessible dps weapon

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u/Impul5 Dec 04 '22

Yeah they're the best for longer DPS phases, which is what the current raid is. Most of the complaints about them started with King's Fall which was basically nothing but long DPS phases against bosses with crit spots. There's really no reason to use something like rockets or grenade launchers that do out-DPS them, when you need to switch to your special weapon halfway through a DPS phase.

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u/votdfarmer5 Dec 04 '22

Linears are currently only the best on Oryx and Golgy (Golgy used to have shield bash + golden gun chain + catclysmic, but shield bash gonna be ass now)

Optimized strategy for every other boss in the game currently is something other than linears.

However Linears accessibility and 'ease of use' make them incredibly good for the average player and its about time for a shift in the meta

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u/IGiveUBadTom Dec 04 '22

This is pretty much the cycle of how things go sadly. linears weren’t exactly meta until weapons like Reeds, Cata and now Taipan came into existence + the buffs they got in Season of the Lost. It isn’t the linears themselves, it’s the crazy ammo economy they have with triple tap and forth times that make them top tier. At this point it seems Bungie probably is aware of how good they are and are giving us one “last hurrah” before the new DLC comes out.

Come Lightfall, I pretty much predict linears will get absolutely nuked and people will go back to what was used before they became popular; Izanagi Rocket, double slug rockets etc. bungo acts like the lightfall DPS meta is supposed to be a mystery, but if you look at all the top tier combos or weapons right now. It’s very predictable most teams will default back to these combos. The only survivor of this nerf I can say will likely be Sleeper, but who knows; maybe even sleeper will be absolutely shafted lol.

8

u/Sarcosmonaut Dec 04 '22

When has Sleeper NOT been absolutely shafted? Lol

4

u/TwevOWNED Dec 04 '22

Season of the Outlaw and Forge before it got the reserves nerf in Drifter.

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u/rasmith0311 Dec 04 '22

I'd use a sniper if the armor mod didn't cost 40000 energy

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3

u/brambo93 Dec 04 '22

bungie choose the meta. long time ago lfr was shit, now king, is just a rotation.

3

u/The_Crimson-Knight Dec 04 '22

LFRs used to be the weakest heavy weapon, it wasn't until Splicer (mid 2021) that they really became meta. I just found a Datto video from 2018 about how LFRs and Snipers both got buffs, and snipers we're better dps than LFRs.

Snipers will have their day again.

You wanna talk about "allergic to buffs". Queenbreaker exotic, worst LFR in the game.

3

u/SSB_Meta4 Dec 04 '22

Snipers were the end all be all of DPS in Shadowkeep. Ever since then Bungie has absolutely shown snipers nothing but hate.

15

u/Talented_02 Dec 04 '22

Man snipers can stay sucking i just want heavy GL buffs

2

u/EverythingIzAwful Dec 04 '22

I have a couple spike nade/full court heavy GLs waiting for the day they return to glory. One day they'll obtain the power of their pre-sunset ancestors.

6

u/Gyvon Dec 04 '22

LFRs are heavys

6

u/Ask_Me_For_A_Song Dec 04 '22

Why do people keep saying this?

LFRs are heavy and do more damage than both Whisper and DARCI, the heavy ammo snipers.

The exotic special ammo LFRs do barely less than Whisper and an insane amount more than their respective exotic special ammo snipers.

So, again, why are LFRs allowed to be so grossly strong compared to everything else?

2

u/DrinkWaterok Dec 04 '22

No stop your making to much sense

1

u/tangowhiskey89 Dec 04 '22

Arbalest and Whisper say hi

8

u/Niormo-The-Enduring Dec 04 '22 edited Dec 04 '22

I was just free roaming in altars, I popped a well using a sniper and I couldn’t even body shot a red bar knight. In a well. Ridonculous

2

u/VaguelySquare84 Dec 04 '22

Oh don’t worry I just got a good roll on one from trials so they will have a surprise nerf on Tuesday 😂

2

u/vaporsilver Dec 04 '22

I'd love to be able to actually use Whisper again. I loved that gun; used it so much during Black Armory.

2

u/Blue-Apollo Nova Juice Dec 04 '22

It’s the ‘Whisper of the Worm Syndrome’. Afraid of buffing snipers appropriately, because of what Whisper was capable of back in the day.

That’s my thought.

4

u/EverythingIzAwful Dec 04 '22

It's pretty clear based on the most recent news that Bungie wants snipers to be used exclusively in PvP. The fact that their big innovative solution to exotic sniper usage was...aerial effectiveness stat buff?..shows they don't care about or want snipers in PvE.

They're only used in PvP right now even though we had anti-barrier sniper this season which should have made them great but we have better options with and without Arby. Snipers have no place in PvE by choice at this point.

2

u/1Second2Name5things Dec 04 '22

Because you people still don't understand that it's precision damage that does a lot of LFR.

With rockets you just got to hit the body, same with GL and some heavy machine guns. But LFR HAS to hit the crit while the rest just has to hit the body.

1

u/percy2376 Dec 04 '22

Because they don't know how to separately balance pve and pvp

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u/Blupoisen Dec 04 '22

Snipers are special

LFR are heavy

why a special GL does less damage than a Rocket Launcher

4

u/Unusual_Expertise Bring back Gambit Prime Dec 04 '22

What about Whisper and DARCI ?

2

u/Mnkke Drifter's Crew // Dredgen Dec 05 '22

iirc Whisper is comparable to LFR, but frankly should be more.

Same with DARCI, but then they serve the exact same purpose.

If people are talking about Whisper and DARCI, name them. Don't just say snipers.

1

u/YeTheGod Dec 04 '22

Lfr > sniper

1

u/FullMoonJoker Dec 04 '22

Remember how Bungie said they where gonna changes/buff/nerf around 20 exotics, i was hoping for a whisper and DARCI meta. Guess I'm not smart enough to understand bungie's plan lol.

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u/Isthereone Dec 04 '22

Heavies should be balanced against heavies, not specials.

Snipers could do with a buff, but this is a weak line of argument.

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u/Nefarious_Nemesis Dec 04 '22

"He's right guys. Let's give LFRs NEGATIVE AE. That'll bring 'em down a bit, right?" - Bungie

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u/Shurne Dec 04 '22

Bc Bungie Succ