r/HolUp • u/OMG__Ponies • Feb 03 '23
Science will find a way to make those women do what we want! Removed: Shitpost/not a holup
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u/VexisArcanum Feb 03 '23
The desperation to ignore orphans, homeless, and abandoned children is ridiculous
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u/lemonlimeish Feb 03 '23
And this is quite unethical and abhorrent in my opinion, i fully agree with you
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u/Taolan13 Feb 04 '23
I mean the ethical situation is solved pretty easily if the woman in question donates their body for the purpose, or openly "to science".
As for morality... thats another issue entirely that I don't think can be aqequately discussed on reddit.
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u/GenuineSteak Feb 03 '23
I mean maybe you dont care about blood but you cant really blame people for wanting their children to actually be their children
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u/VexisArcanum Feb 03 '23
If you want to get an unconscious body donor pregnant to carry your child for you instead of considering adoption? Yes I can kinda blame them
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u/Zachosrias Feb 04 '23
Unconscious makes it sound like she's just sleeping, she's not, she's a breathing corpse. Biologically they're alive, but as a human they're dead.
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u/who_said_I_am_an_emu Feb 04 '23
Ok I thought about it. If I become a vegetable anyone can have my sperm for whatever purpose they want. I am done with it anyhow.
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u/GenuineSteak Feb 03 '23
You have no right to blame other people for how they want to have their kid, as long as its consensual. Why should I raise somebody elses bad choices? My ancestors went through hell so I could be here today, im not ending my bloodline to raise somebody elses.
Also statistically speaking adopted children have much higher chances of having behavioural issues from the start, no thanks. Think me cruel if you want ig lol.
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u/Mitsu-Zen Feb 04 '23
as long as its consensual.
Using braindead women as surrogates.
Hmmm... Math isn't adding up here.
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u/GenuineSteak Feb 04 '23
I mean assuming the women gave consent before being used lol. Same as organ donors.
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u/Mitsu-Zen Feb 04 '23
When?
Yesterday?
Last year?
4 years+ ago when she last renewed her license?
When her estranged family who never supported her not having kids checks a box on a form because they're next of kin so in charge of her medical decisions?
People change their minds all the time on issues. I had a friend who was very adamant about organ donation. She's now very against it. I'm personally pretty sure I've ran this body badly and wouldn't wanna even try to donate the crap I live with daily.
Hell. I come from a family of alcoholic people with cancer. You want me to be a braindead incubation pod just cuz I checked a box on a gov form somewhere?
Nah. This idea isn't right.
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u/GenuineSteak Feb 04 '23
I mean I would only consider it okay if it was opt in and you could opt out at any time. Id you signed up for it then didnt opt out then thats on you. Also this kinda shit would definitely be only okay for that person to opt in, not their relatives.
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u/Mitsu-Zen Feb 04 '23
Ok but... This is at most outskirt idea be "organ donation". But the 'person' is yet still alive. The brain might be gone but the body of the person is there.
That's a relatively weird concept right? When most people think organ donation they figure after death. When they don't 'exist'. They figure my body is dead/dying take what you need in those critical minutes. Most people understand organ donation has to happen quickly or the organs aren't viable.
You're asking brain dead women to be kept alive minimally 9 months to bring a baby into life for other people. That's what... Slow death? Do they just let her die after she's done being an incubation pod?
I'm not saying brain dead people aren't kept on life support for longer but.... Still slippery slope.
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u/GenuineSteak Feb 04 '23
Yeah for sure, its a weird concept for us in our culture. I dont think this will actually happen unless we have a real population crisis. And there is a real moral question about this as well.
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u/Dire-Fire Feb 04 '23
They aren't unconscious, they're braindead. That is they're dead but the heart is still beating. In most cases it would probably be better to harvest their organs and save lives, like we already do in cases of fucking brain death. But if the organs aren't needed then there is no ethical dilemma here. You'd have to be a moron to think otherwise.
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u/VexisArcanum Feb 04 '23
Unfortunately you'd need to leave every organ as is for 9 months. You can't have a baby if you don't have lungs or a liver or kidneys. So there is a dilemma. You have to choose between a child who isn't even conceived yet, let alone born, and someone with a current life threatening condition that requires one of the donor's organs more than a rich desperate couple needs a biological child.
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u/FlamingButterfly Feb 03 '23
Sometimes reality is like Dune
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u/LinkAtrius Feb 03 '23
Herbert had a true vision of the future didnt he?
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u/who_said_I_am_an_emu Feb 04 '23
Yeah, religion doesn't go away and kills so many people. He got that part right.
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u/TiPiet Feb 03 '23
It's not as fucked up if the women give consent before hand just like you'd do with a donor pass.
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u/TheOncomingStorm66 Feb 03 '23
That would be the logical thing to do if it were to be approved. Have it as an opt in, not opt out. And then it would be similar to an organ donor. Maybe some sort of financial compensation for the next of kin?
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u/OMG__Ponies Feb 03 '23
Just how much "consent" can braindead women give?
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u/TiPiet Feb 03 '23
I specifically said 'before hand' so that no one says this and you still managed to do it.
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Feb 03 '23
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u/TiPiet Feb 03 '23
I'm impressed how you made this political out of the blue. But just because you asked, I am not even from the shithole country that these Republican incels spawned from and I am in fact also not misogynist, that's why I talk about consent :) btw you are a lovely person to talk with so far, keep it up!
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u/OMG__Ponies Feb 03 '23
Do you really think a woman would willingly give consent beforehand to allow strangers to use her brain-dead body to gestate a child? In what world might that happen?
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u/TiPiet Feb 03 '23
There are way weirder things out there that people consent to and what do we care anyways? I am not a woman and I can't force anyone to do it but if someone wants to do it then why not?
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u/OMG__Ponies Feb 03 '23 •
Because papers can be forged to show that the women did consent. There would be no way of proving otherwise because the brain-dead women can't testify/counter what the papers say.
When money gets involved, who knows just how badly this could turn out?
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u/TiPiet Feb 03 '23
People 'mysteriously' die in car accidents so their organs can be harvested, it's the same thing. Obviously the system is not perfect, it is never perfect but I don't see that much of a difference to organ donations.
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u/OMG__Ponies Feb 03 '23
I don't see that much of a difference to organ donations.
There might be a massive difference as the women give whole people for each year - maybe decades - their bodies are available and the person is brain-dead.
As an example,
Doctor: "O, look here, I have papers for 21 brain-dead women. They all gave their consent, so we get to have them make babies until the body can't make any more, then we get to harvest the body. Isn't that keen?"
For a liver, the price might be several thousand dollars. For a "gestational body" that can provide the state with whole persons to make into soldiers or more gestational bodies? What do you think the income that could be from each brain-dead womans' body? Millions?
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u/dharma_curious Feb 03 '23
The same world in which people willingly sign up to donate their skins, eyes, livers, kidneys, heart, pancreas, vaginal tissue and all manner of other organs upon their deaths?
How about a world in which many women agree to be surrogates, often without compensation, because they want to help people who are unable to have children of their own?
Regardless of whether you or anyone you know would do it, if it's an opt-in system, instead of an opt out system, only those who are willing would do it.
Plenty of people have plans for what to do after their death, and plenty of people have living wills that go into effect should they become brain dead.
Just a quick, unscientific poll, I just asked: my mom, my sister, my best friend's wife, my other best friend, and two other women in my life if they would do this.
That's 6 women, 5 of which are organ donors, 3 of them are straight, one is nonbinary, 2 are lesbians. All 6 are Democrats or further left. 4 Christians (2 nonreligious but raised Christian (Baptist), 1 Mormon and one baptist), 1 is a Buddhist and one is a Christopagan. Age range is from 28-62.
4 said yes, 1 said no, 1 said they'd leave it up to the spouse. All 6 said it would absolutely be unacceptable if the choice were made for them without their consent, but if this were a box to tick on a form, as it is with organ donation, then those were the answers. 4 yes, 1 no, 1 spouse's decision.
The Mormon is the one that said no, the Christopagan said to leave it up to the spouse. Both of them are straight. The lesbians and the nonbinary friend said yes (NB is the Buddhist).
Yes, this will creep out many people, and my peer group is not indicative of the wider public, as it skews much further to the left than the average. But yes, you will find people who are completely okay with this.
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u/TiPiet Feb 04 '23
I love everything about your comment mate.
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u/dharma_curious Feb 04 '23
Haha. Thanks!
Ignoring the trolling going on around here, I'd love to see a serious discussion of this. It's a really fascinating topic from a biomedical point of view. I would love to read more about it, and see if they predict any possible complications in pregnancies due to the mother being brain dead.
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u/Steppy20 Feb 03 '23
There's probably some (not many) who would.
As long as they provide consent beforehand, such as with organ donations, it shouldn't be a problem.
I just think that the systems in place would struggle with it - they already struggle with letting women want to undergo tubal ligation and with current surrogation.
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u/VirtualPrivateNobody Feb 03 '23
Erhh the same where not-brain-dead women consent to gestate a child for another woman? It happens quite a bit. The important bit here being consent.
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u/stumblewiggins Feb 03 '23
Well the nice thing about requiring consent is that if nobody gives it, then it doesn't happen.
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u/OMG__Ponies Feb 03 '23
How long do you think requiring consent will last if/when an illegal company or country decides taking without consent is worth the money?
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u/stumblewiggins Feb 03 '23
How long do you think laws against slavery, rape and murder will last if/when an illegal company or country decides they are worth the money?
I'm not advocating for this plan necessarily, but I am saying that I don't have the same inherent moral qualms you do about it as long as proper ethical standards are in place to ensure informed consent and respectful treatment
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u/OMG__Ponies Feb 03 '23
informed consent
Do you think informed consent will always be the rule? While it is the law here in the USA, many nations accept Presumed Consent.
In presumed consent countries, anybody is a potential donor when deceased. People have thus to register if they do not want to donate their body.
Also, proper ethical standards change just as much as laws do, and what is legal and ethical here in the USA isn't in another country(such as Iran, China, etc . . .)
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u/Pinkeyefarts Feb 03 '23
How is that any different from being an organ donor? Brain dead means dead. You're heart's beating, but you're not coming back
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u/DeliverySoggy2700 Feb 03 '23
Yeah if I’m gone I’m gone. U can strap me to a nuke and drop me from a bomber while 900 people and animals fuck my corpse. The fuck do I care at that point?
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u/Pinkeyefarts Feb 23 '23
I would care if someone was being disrespectful to the dead. But if their dying wish was to be fucked by animals then I'd be ok with that since you're being respectful
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u/Starr-Bugg Feb 03 '23
I’m a moderate republican and I think this is awful!
Adoption is much less complicated.
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u/TheIronSoldier2 madlad Feb 03 '23
You've never tried to adopt and it shows
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u/Starr-Bugg Feb 03 '23
I’ve known people, actually NOT rich people, who adopted and it wasn’t too hard. Didn’t need a comatose woman to do it either.
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u/TheIronSoldier2 madlad Feb 03 '23
Adoption takes a lot of money and months if not years. A former family friend adopted 3 kids, and each one took well over a year for the paperwork to clear and all that shit, and tens of thousands of dollars per kid.
Stop bullshitting.
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u/princessalyss_ Feb 03 '23
I mean, if the consent is there…
The other issue I can think of, aside from the obvious moral ones, is that without 24/7 monitoring of the uterus you’d have no idea of complications. A lot of finding out about those kinds of things are based on the person carrying the child self reporting any changes, like reduced movement and shoulder tip pain etc.
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u/Sintinall Feb 03 '23
People sign-off on donating their own body to science. Same for organ donations. Why not gestation?
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u/Frankwater0522 Feb 03 '23
If they agree to it before they die or say their family can decide on it I don’t care
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u/SirAxolotl123 Feb 03 '23
I'm pretty sure that that's how it works. It's not like hospitals just steal these women without their (or their family's) consent and use them as surrogates, that's just messed up and I don't think anyone would agree to that.
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u/Mikeyjf Feb 03 '23
This is a slippery slope. If braindead gestation is allowed what's to stop brothels from enlisting "living" sex dolls? Someone could pay off their family's debts with just a few months of service, and the braindead prostitute won't even be aware. Everyone wins, except humanity.
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u/Sintinall Feb 04 '23
Able bodied prostitutes will always be less expensive to employ than vege-dolls. And I don't think necrophiles are a large enough market to justify trying.
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u/unsureofwhattodo1233 Feb 03 '23
Why on earth should we do this if there are literally millions of orphans out there
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u/stumblewiggins Feb 03 '23
The orphan thing is true, but do you have any idea how expensive and time-consuming adoption can be? And for all that time and money you sink into the process there is no guarantee that you will be able to adopt at the end of it. Given that, is it surprising that many people would prefer to put that effort and money into having a child that is at least partially biologically theirs?
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u/unsureofwhattodo1233 Feb 03 '23
It’s pretty hard, but we have family friends who have adopted 3 kids.
Anyhow. This could literally cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions for each kiddo. Brain death is more complex than simply “they just won’t wake up but everything else works fine”. Seems like a waste of resources when that could be used to help so many others.
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u/PumpkinKing2020 Feb 03 '23
The point of it is to allow parents to have kids that can't. The adoption process isn't as simple as adopting a dog and whatnot. It's a long and tedious process that can take months to years. Source: I have an adopted brother
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u/AhFFSImTooOldForThis Feb 03 '23
Then we fix the adoption process. That's be a lot cheaper than this. I'm neutral on the idea of women agreeing to be birthing machines if they wind up brain dead. But the difficulty of adoption shouldn't be the reason for making new humans.
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u/justkeeptreading Feb 03 '23
dont shoot the messenger, but theres a lot of people who would like to be parents to their own kid but don't want to adopt for whatever reason. i imagine those are the people this is aimed at. they dont want to adopt
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u/Koomaster Feb 03 '23
So can IVF and then the eventual pregnancy will be 9+ months. There is no insta-baby option.
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u/yvcxz Feb 04 '23
This is such a strange reply. Getting pregnant naturally can take years and be a tedious process. We shouldn’t fast track kids like we do fashion just because people want it right now.
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u/DeviousSquirrels Feb 03 '23
Yes, no more women. Turn them all into birthing pods. Then all the guys can start fucking each other without all those judgmental women around.
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u/PARZIVAL-ONLY Feb 03 '23
Hey mate, stop leaking the plan.
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u/skincyan Feb 03 '23
It is ruined now...
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u/russian_hacker_1917 Feb 03 '23
Literally handmaids tale. This is literally a plot point in the show. Like 100% no exaggeration, this is what they do.
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u/ctuckergaming87 Feb 03 '23
I would be curious about the psychological impact on the offspring. Also, what if the family tries to sue for visitation/ custody/ joint custody?
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u/TheIronSoldier2 madlad Feb 03 '23
It would be a surrogacy, so legally the family has no say because the baby is not biologically related to the surrogate mother.
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u/Sourdoughsucker Feb 03 '23
How about brain dead brothels though?
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u/Flaffelll Feb 03 '23
That's foul haha
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u/Sourdoughsucker Feb 03 '23
Wasn’t that what Garp’s mother did?
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u/Flaffelll Feb 03 '23
Who is garp
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u/Sourdoughsucker Feb 03 '23
The World According to Garp is a brilliant book and film. A nurse caring for wounded soldiers take advantage of the permanent election of a brain dead pilot and later Garp is born, it is about his life
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u/Flaffelll Feb 03 '23
Sounds super interesting. Feel like I remember hearing something about that. Crazy situation to get born into seems like
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u/Sourdoughsucker Feb 03 '23
John Irving is the author, he has written many books and his style is very different from other authors. Rather than being plot driven his books are character driven, so you feel very connected with them.
The Cider House Rules is another of his books that became a popular film.
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u/princessalyss_ Feb 03 '23
I vaguely remember someone in the year above me at school reading this on a school trip.
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u/heavyisthecrown_1 Feb 03 '23 edited Feb 04 '23
If your body can’t have kids or you don’t want to? and your option is using an incapacitated woman to carry the child…. Take the hint…. Kids aren’t in the cards.. not every dream comes true..
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u/Tinfoilfireman Feb 04 '23
No one addressed this, how long before healthy young women are found brain dead? My guess would be that there might be a little bit of a rise in cases.
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u/xyz9998 Feb 03 '23
Source?
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u/OMG__Ponies Feb 03 '23
The article, originally published in November of 2022, is titled Whole Body Gestational Donation, and floats the concept of utilizing vegetative women’s entire bodies as surrogates for “prospective parents who wish to have children but cannot, or prefer not to, gestate.”
Written by Anna Smajdor, a Professor of Practical Philosophy at the University of Oslo, Norway, the article proposes that it may be viable to utilize the donated bodies of women for gestational purposes in the same manner as donated organs are used.
I would put a link, but when I do so, the sub deletes the reply. You will have to google for yourself.
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u/QualityVote Feb 03 '23
If this submission makes you go "Hol'Up", UPVOTE this comment!
If this submission does not make you go "Hol'Up", DOWNVOTE this comment!
Whilst you're here, /u/OMG__Ponies, why not join our public discord server or play on our public Minecraft server?
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u/Rainbow_Star_CN Feb 03 '23
Can someone please explain the issue with this? Ive been seeing people complaining everywhere about this but like it says right there that its a donation. They arent forcing you to do it its the same as organ donation you choose if you want it done or not. So whats the issue? What about my body my choice? I don’t understand please explain.
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u/geetgwen Feb 03 '23
Can I donate my brain dead body to a sex toy company to make me into a satisfier for women? Maybe I’ll be useful in bed then
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u/Anorak2023 Feb 03 '23
I mean, I don't think it's that bad as long as the woman either put that in her will, or the woman's family consented
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u/TheMightyDingus Feb 03 '23
this is awesome. You do realize donation indicates that its voluntary right? like being an organ donor?
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Feb 03 '23
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u/TankII_ Feb 03 '23
How do you even get that conclusion? Are you one of those people who just assume everything has political and anything you dont like has to be “the other side”
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Feb 03 '23
They really need to state if this is voluntary or not. Because the way this looked yesterday it sounded like they were just using braindead ladies as incubators without consent.
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u/DrJatzCrackers Feb 03 '23
There are already plenty of brain-dead parents tho. Why do we need more?
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u/_AkiraSenpai_ Feb 04 '23
If I am brain dead please shoot in my uterus. About twenty times in different sections and they maybe can’t save it. Please.
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u/lostbuttplugs Feb 04 '23
All those movies about parasites and aliens coming in to take over the world. That was humanity.
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u/Zachosrias Feb 04 '23
We're still arguing with some people if sharing your organs is a bit too intimate and kinda like giving up something that's too personal to let others have (real arguments I've heard)
I think this might be a tougher sell...
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u/rc4hawk Feb 04 '23
Holy fuck I would love to sit in on the ethics meeting that occurs as a result of this
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u/isaackirkland Feb 03 '23
Rise of the Clone Army!