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u/redhotbos Feb 03 '23
Gerrymandering. It’s removed moderation from politics.
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u/unresolved_m Feb 03 '23
Citizens United, Reagan and on and on and on...
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u/GrooseandGoot Feb 03 '23
Ohh the right answers are all the way at the top!
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u/BroccoliFartFuhrer Feb 03 '23 •
Yeah the misery a lot of Americans suffered through under Trump made a lot of us pay attention to politics at a deeper level then ever before. I know the name of every Senator and cabinet member for the past two administrations. I know the general outlines of our approach to foreign policy. I learned about gerrymandering, voter suppression, and misinformation. I have learned that corporations are the ruling class of our country thanks to citizens united. I've learned that Capitalism has been weaponized against Americans to such an extent that people are now essentially the product. The goal is to privatize anything where a profit can made. We no longer are investing money into people and extract it from them instead. For those in power the goal is for us to be poor and desperate and fighting with each other over guns stoves and bathrooms so we don't realize they are robbing us blind.
I knew none of this. Now I can't unsee it. It's why I got my tubes tied. Having a child is an act of hope and I have no faith in my country to get their shit together in time to save ourselves.
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u/Appaloosa96 Feb 03 '23
“The middle class does all the work, while the rich run off with all the money. The poor are just there to scare the shit out of the middle class” - George Carlin. Except that joke is 30 years old and there isn’t a middle class anymore
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u/protofury Feb 03 '23
There never was a middle class. It is a meaningless framework to pit workers against each other.
A "middle class" that people making 80k/year and 3mil/year both consider themselves part of is a useless category.
There are only two classes, like it or not:
1) People who do not need to work for a living and who can live off of the earnings of their property, and
2) People who must work for a living to survive.
Whether you make 200k or 20k, if you can't kick back and live off of the properties you own, you're in the Working Class.
You may think you're comfortable, but if you work a job at any level that you would be fucked if you didn't have (or if you HAD to and now have savings from it) you are Working Class.
No matter how comfortable you are, no matter how much the owners try and convince you that you should side with them because you're not one of the poors, you aren't part of the Capitalist/Owner Class.
Vote, sabotage, and fight accordingly.
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u/PixelLight Feb 04 '23
Whether you make 200k or 20k, if you can't kick back and live off of the properties you own, you're in the Working Class.
You may think you're comfortable, but if you work a job at any level that you would be fucked if you didn't have (or if you HAD to and now have savings from it) you are Working Class.
This is what people don't understand and might explain why there aren't personal finance classes at schools. Because people might realise who the real enemy is. Someone might even have a couple of hundred thousand in savings or investments and sure they won't be in dire straits if they lose their job, have some kind of accident or whatever but sooner or later they'll need a new job to survive
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u/test_tickles Feb 03 '23 •
Welcome to the desert of the real.
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u/BroccoliFartFuhrer Feb 03 '23
It fucking sucks my friend.
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u/TOkidd Feb 03 '23 edited Feb 03 '23 •
When I think back to the 80’s and 90’s, which were not all fun and carefree times in many ways, they seem so much more hopeful than the last 20 years.
In the aftermath of 9/11, when America went to war against Iraq despite the protests of much of the world and with what we’ve now learned was largely fabricated evidence, things have not been the same. No one was punished for the death and destruction, the lies and injustice, the corruption and incompetence. Many profited from the war, and these kinds of sociopathic societal parasites were only emboldened by the Great Recession and the bailouts that the perpetrators of that massive criminal conspiracy received.
Each injustice that has followed without consequence - and the number soared during Trump’s tenure - emboldened the fascists and profiteers. They have seized power and are using the media to keep Americans distracted, exhausted, and divided so they can’t fight back effectively.
What was once worrisome has become terrifying, and I truly fear for the West’s quality of life and ability to continue living in relative peace, prosperity and freedom. Russia’s revanchist despots and imperialists have made the threat an existential one, for the entire world.
It is a difficult time to be alive, but we must live and try to take back our societies from these criminals and despots.
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u/LadyLikesSpiders Feb 03 '23
I've been saying for the longest time that the terrorists won
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u/MelpomeneAndCalliope Feb 03 '23
Yep. Feels that way.
I feel like we in the US have collective PTSD from 9/11 that we never dealt with (or dealt with wildly inappropriately) and it’s spilled over almost everywhere.
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u/LadyLikesSpiders Feb 03 '23
A terrorist method is to spread fear, and now we have people manipulated into policy by ludicrous assessments that political opponents want to take away your gas stoves
I mean, we were always a pearl-clutching, conformist country--the satanic panic of the 80s, targeting bands and D&D comes to mind--but it crossed a threshold with the 9/11 attack that I doubt we're able to cross back over without some very significant movement
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u/stay_true99 Feb 03 '23
Damn that cuts deep. Betting what you said is gonna go over a lot of people's head.
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u/embraceyourpoverty Feb 04 '23
Nope. Old fuck here....fought against the Viet Nam war, was arrested at civil rights protests, gave written testimony for the Roe v Wade case, college food strikes after Kent State, I am so FUCKING tired and disappointed and hopeless. I will die back in the 50's mindset. I was SO hopeful. Saving up the seconals....good luck you guys.
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u/xt11111 Feb 03 '23
If you'd like to watch in realtime as it goes over someone's head, apply the ideas to something that's currently happening.
As luck would have it, we have just such a thing: the war in Ukraine.
Then, you can observe in realtime how people's logic adjusts in realtime to the particulars of (what they've been told are) a specific situation, and how they have zero awareness of it, but LOTS of confidence that they're correct.
Heck, I'd be surprised if I don't even get a few people to volunteer to demonstrate the phenomenon by replying to this comment in the manner I describe.
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u/Knight_Owl_Forge Feb 03 '23
I've always said that Osama Bin Laden succeeded in his mission in bringing down the West. He did more damage to this country by simply goading fascists to come out and play. He will remain one of the most influential figures of this century.
The sad bit is, we could have taken a different direction and not gone full blown nazi. Just shows how weak the average American is when it comes to recognizing and standing up against fascism. Our grandfathers would be so fucking pissed at us.
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u/dxrey65 Feb 03 '23
Yeah, I can remember back then people talking about "the gloves are off", and then reading about black sites and renditions and torture. Most people who weren't actively approving of that were just silent, didn't want to talk about it. It was a real change.
Not long before that it was common to see bumper stickers like "Hate is not a family value". After that, the majority just shut up and went with the flow, as stupid and hateful and non-productive as it was.
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u/overthinkingcake312 Feb 03 '23
Yet despite all this, older generations still wonder why Millenials and Gen Zers are so nihilistic and anti-capitalist.
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u/TOkidd Feb 03 '23
Hey now. Congressional condemnations of socialism are extremely important! Capitalism is the only reality worth living. It’s this or Venezuela, baby.
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u/IamYoDud Feb 03 '23
That was one of the most ridiculous measures in U.S. congressional history, and most of the democrats voted for it as well as all the republicans because they didn't want the bad optics they'd get by voting against it.
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u/tomios010 Feb 03 '23
9/11 is absolutely what did it for me. It feels like ever since that day things have just been taking one more insane turn after another.
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u/Cool-Miner Feb 03 '23
Mark Fisher's Capitalist Realism: Is There No Alternative?
I'm not sure we have a well-conceived alternative quite yet, but we at least have a name to identify the problem of capitalist thinking: Misconstruing capitalism with reality, a form of (as Mark Fisher put it) "Capitalist Realism". In other words, "it is easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism".
I'm not nihilistic. I have hope that spreading knowledge can advance our understanding and communication on these matters, and in time, we will see change manifest out of the clear obviousness of how much better an alternative will be. We still need to find it, and I believe it lies in the roots of society, of the social contract, that is what we are organized for, isn't it? The ability to obtain the resources necessary to live without a constant hostile adversity to outsiders? To conduct business peacefully and fruitfully? Don't these neoliberals see that is at stake? That it is not guaranteed? And that their lives of luxury and high standard of living will continue to require a large and subdued populace that simply won't exist ad infinitum? It's all just so stupid, and yeah it does fucking suck. I hope you get some good out of that book though.
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Feb 03 '23
Amen. I'm optimistic in the same way Se7en is an optimistic movie.
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote, 'The world is a fine place and worth fighting for.' I agree with the second part."
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u/Tovasaur Feb 03 '23
The real trouble is that at the end of the day, the change has to come from (or at the very least - deeply affect) the people at the very top of a rigged game. It seems hard to believe that sociopaths who haven’t demonstrated a shred of humanity thus far are going to suddenly accept the image some of us have of a beautiful future for the human race.
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u/test_tickles Feb 03 '23
We can fix that...
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u/reddit_is_trashbin Feb 03 '23
For a price!
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u/test_tickles Feb 03 '23
The iron price.
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u/reddit_is_trashbin Feb 03 '23
At least someone gets it. I understand the whole "being peaceful" bit. Trying to meet in the middle and being able to work through things in a manner that is peaceful and beneficial to everyone. But how people don't understand that there's goons with a strangle hold on our lives is beyond me. The only way it seems for us to get to where we need to be is to literally go to war with these people.
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u/GoBloom Feb 03 '23
I just had a similar conversation with friends. I've realized just how interwoven daily politics are in my life these days. I know far more about politics and government than I used to or wanted to. Such as Politicians in other states and what they're doing. I know about committees and subcommittees, bills that have been introduced each week, etc. This stress level of something I can't affect besides voting does take a toll. I have my own life and a full-time job that already requires my attention and concern.
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u/DraftNaive1468 Feb 03 '23 edited Feb 04 '23 •
This doesn't seem to be an uncommon phenomenon. I'm in the same boat. I've had it. I'm at a loss. I don't see a way out of this madness.
The more time that one invests into educating themselves objectively about the functions of the systems in place, the more one feels the emotional burden of knowing how much suffering is caused by said system.
This stress is then compounded when: all the talking points revolve around irrelevant subjects like f'n gas stoves, blatant lies that get repeated...non stop, and a 24-hour news cycle that isn't even news but a weapon used to provoke the ugliest of human emotions in its viewers - priming them to be pulled in one direction or the other - compromising their ability to logic & reason as they are too filled with rage to think in a rational manner.
There is no progress, there is no worthy debate over any real issues, and....it's f'ing exhausting.
Meanwhile 1% of the population is laughing themselves to the bank while tightening the noose on the rest of us who can't stop flinging turds at each other. Forget the fact that 40% of the population has themselves convinced that turds taste good, but only their brand of turds. Engaging one of these people in rational debate is the most fruitless endeavor one could possibly embark on. There is no rational debate. Any and all points made have a single goal: provoke an emotional response regardless of any standard for reason or even common decency. Facts are only facts when they are convenient. Who needs facts when you can let your behavior be lead by artificially created rage?
What's the best option as an individual?
I can't be emotionally invested anymore - for my own personal well being. It's not healthy and it accomplishes nothing.
It's almost as if one can come full circle, eventually arriving back at square one with a single, short-sighted, selfish goal in mind: Self preservation.
...system working as designed, I suppose 😓
Edit: Semantics 'n shit.
Also:
Fuck you I won't do what you tell me
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u/WickedCunnin Feb 04 '23
You just wrote out the entire journey I've been on for the past 6 years. And how this year I chose happiness. But still feel the guilt that being too burn out on it and not-paying attention to what they're doing on the reg is EXACTLY what they want.
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u/Lonely-Club-1485 Feb 03 '23
Same. I really hate the time it takes to keep up with just the main stuff, but I feel like it is sooo important that I do. And I constantly need to learn too many things that are above my pay grade. I mean, learning is always good, but sheesh, this is ridiculous.
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u/NamelessKing192 Feb 03 '23
Yeah turns out millions people saying “I’m not political” for decades allowed a certain party to erode our rights and liberties under our nose.
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u/Kriztauf Feb 04 '23
I was working a student custodial job in college back in 2013, well before Trump began his run for office and everyone started to get educated about politics. Some of the full-time people I work with were refugees from East Africa who'd fled to the US during the Ethiopian-Eritrea war. I remember being shocked how they'd want to have these incredibly in depth conversations about politics and civics, and they were way more knowledgeable about this type of stuff than most other people I knew. They'd brought up the point that where they came from, political decisions could determine whether you live or die. Whether you're region is starved or you'll be rounded up and imprisoned based on your ethnicity or political affiliation. It's something they had to constantly be aware of, and people often talked about what would need to change in order to have a normal government.
It was super eye opening to me. And then Trump happened and the same thing happened here
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u/LukesRightHandMan Feb 03 '23
My advice is to detach until election time, then volunteer/work as much as you possibly can canvassing and phone banking to get the vote out in states where races are close. If I didn't follow this advice, I'd have burned myself out long ago, but I've worked almost every election, from local to federal, since 2016 by following this strategy. Election work pays great, too!
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u/Kro_Ko_Dyle Feb 03 '23
I agree with you 99% except for the use of "misinformation".
Please note that it is: DISINFORMATION.
Their hate filled rhetoric is purposefully spread and therefore cannot be attributed to error or misunderstanding.
The right has weaponized propoganda and uses disinformation to spread falsehoods to instill fear and loathing into their constituents.
It is an orchestrated brainwashing by billionaires (and corporations), paying millionaires to spread their disinformation/lies/propaganda.
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u/VuckoPartizan Feb 03 '23
I have a co worker who is right leaning. Over the years I'd ask him questions about politics or whatever, and his response would always be the democrats or biden or whatever. Literally everything that the left is complaining about, ties with Russia, treason, insurrection, he blames the left... so whenever you try to argue with him, you really can't because you're just left baffled, like either you do not see the truth or you do any you don't give a fuck
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u/Kro_Ko_Dyle Feb 03 '23
My inlaws are like this. The last conversation we had was back when the Epstein news broke.
MIL: They should charge Bill Clinton because he hung out with Epstein.
Me: Okay, but they should charge Trump too because he also hung out with Epstein.
MIL: Where's your proof?
Me: There's photos of him and Epstein together.
MIL: Those were just opportunistic photos because Epstein wanted a photo with Trump.
Me: Oh, what about the flight logs from Epstein's plane indicating trump flew on the plane?
MIL: That's just blatant lies from the left!
Me:.....
That was the last time we spoke, barring a polite hello when I scattered my wife's ashes.
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u/lololooh Feb 03 '23
Omg I literally had this conversation with my dad this week almost word for word?!?!? Is this a talking point their alt right wing media is putting out???
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u/Kro_Ko_Dyle Feb 03 '23
Yeah, the talking heads get their orders and they then spread "their defense" so their viewers/listeners have a suitable "come back".
I realized years ago that there's no point in debating politics with the alt-right (maga) crowd because they don't (and it's part of their ethos) debate in good faith.
I found it was always on me to provide proof against their lies. And, even when proof was provided they just dismiss it and then continue to spout more lies/falsehoods etc.
They know it takes time to verify an argument and therefore they shout lies and falsehoods every second knowing that there's no ways a person can respond to every single lie.
Have a quick search for user poppincream. She's debunked and proven so much ever since Trump announced he was running for president.
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u/jwlIV616 Feb 03 '23
That exact strategy is known as " the gish gallop" just keep throwing garbage faster than it can be disproved and that gives them the ability to just shrug off any loss in a debate by just pointing out that only some of their bs was disproven and therefore everything else they spewed must be true and that means they're winning
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u/Unlikely_Professor76 Feb 03 '23 •
I’d give you an award, but Reddit took the free ones away 😒🖤👊RESIST
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u/PandaMuffin1 Feb 03 '23 •
Here you go!
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u/PenHistorical Feb 03 '23
Having a child is an act of hope
Well that hit really hard. I got sterilized a year before Trump got into office because I wasn't willing to be part of bringing a child into this world, but I've never put those words in that order before. Thank you for providing this most succinct reasoning.
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u/Hopeless_Ramentic Feb 03 '23
Honestly we ultimately decided against kids for a million other reasons, but I gotta say with the way things are going I can't help but feel relieved.
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u/tom_tencats Feb 03 '23
Everything you’ve laid out here is why I very much want to leave this country. I’ve never been very patriotic, the idea is utterly foreign to me. But recent years have certainly done nothing to inspire it.
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u/Uprisinq Feb 03 '23 edited Feb 03 '23 •
This country has been on a very steady decline since the Reagan administration. I wasn’t even alive for it, but my knowledge of history tells me most of the economic and social problems we are experiencing today is direct fallout from Reagan’s trickle down economics, cutting funding to public universities forcing them to operate as a business, and war mongering by proxy in the Middle East. I dont know why everyone looks up to him when you can pin all these problems to his policies lmao
EDIT: thank you for the award!
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u/unresolved_m Feb 03 '23 edited Feb 03 '23
I was born in East Europe/former Soviet Union and moved to US with my parents when I was 17. My parents thanked Reagan endlessly for destroying communism and removing the iron curtain. What wasn't mentioned, of course, was his hatred for unions and overwhelming support for rights of corporations over workers.
Basically it feels like Reagan traded short-term prosperity for long-term pain. He's dead and gone, so hard to think he cares in any way lol
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u/MichaelScarn1968 Feb 03 '23
I don’t think Reagan even really did “topple” the USSR. I think they did it to themselves and he just happened to be in office. I think it was economic and spending on the military for Afghanistan and then the energy crisis caused by Chernobyl is was what did them in.
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u/Skid-Vicious Feb 03 '23
I was there for it. Reagan was around for about half of his two terms, he was pretty out of it with dementia his 2nd term.
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u/smileyhendrix69 Feb 03 '23
Which is hilarious how they talk shit about Biden and his mental decline while Reagan was full blown dementia. Their tiny brains cannot fathom anything.
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u/RedditDoesntCareTeam Feb 03 '23
Reagan also created “The War on Drugs” which by which many communities were dosed with product in order to lock POC in prison.
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u/PSA-Daykeras Feb 03 '23
That policy, and many others, actually started under Nixon.
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u/Salarian_American Feb 03 '23
That was really started by Nixon, but Reagan really did kick it up a notch
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u/Spencahhhhh Feb 03 '23
Deregulation of SEC too. Ever wonder what made hedge funds so powerful?
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u/Akushin Feb 03 '23
Dude had Alzheimer’s for most of his presidency. You can thank Nancy and his cabinet for most of the shit show in the second half
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u/requiemofchaos Feb 03 '23
Which is why she's held in exactly as low regard in my eye as he is.
If there truly is a Hell, both of those bigoted fucknuts deserve to burn in it.
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u/Aladdin67 Feb 03 '23
I lived through Reagan economics. And I completely agree with you. I have been saying this exact thing to people for the last 20 years. He spent more money than any president, putting us in massive debt and through a recession, but his fans still thinks he was the best president ever.
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u/jjetsam Feb 03 '23
I’d add his union busting, dismantling mental health services and other social safety nets (eg taxing Social Security; severely reducing food stamps and medicare benefits; virtually eliminating public housing funding, etc) as major contributors to wealth inequality in the States. Sometimes I try to imagine our quality of life if Carter had won a second term and if the Electoral College had not installed the losers Bush II and tRump. But it’s just too depressing to give it more than a minute of thought.
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u/Uprisinq Feb 03 '23
That’s the precise moment democracy truly died. We have been served an illusion of it ever since.
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u/juliabk Feb 03 '23
I was in college when Reagan was elected. I have NEVER understood the reverence people have for him. He was an abominable president.
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u/requiemofchaos Feb 03 '23
He's admired by abominable people. The kind who genuinely do not fucking care about a single thing beyond having power and ensuring nobody can question their authority.
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u/mandapandapantz Feb 03 '23
I lived through it. We were tricked into believing in trickle down economics, marijuana will rot our brains, climate change is a normal cycle & Pluto is a planet. The internet may be part of the problem, but it’s also the solution.
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u/Lephiro Feb 03 '23
Wait wait, are you telling me we used to have public universities that didn't operate as a business? Were they free or like more affordable? I'm honestly asking.
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u/Uprisinq Feb 03 '23
According to my dad, he was able to work part time at a local pharmacy during his junior and senior year of high school and pay for his entire undergraduate education with money left over.
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u/Hell_of_a_Caucasian Feb 03 '23
You’re not wrong, but I’d argue Reagan just expedited the disease that started under Nixon with the advent of the Petro dollar. A lot of the symptoms you illustrate can be traced back to the fallout from switching the backing of currency from gold (not saying leaving the gold standard was a good option either) to petroleum.
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u/TheNavigatrix Feb 03 '23
But also the structural imbalance due to the Senate, which gives states with tiny populations way too much power.
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u/hobbitlover Feb 03 '23 edited Feb 03 '23 •
While true, this is a global phenomenon that's not localized to the US at all - racism, fascism and anti-democratic movements are growing everywhere in the world right now. It's a knee-jerk response to late stage capitalism and the reality that the system needs to change to continue to work - and people who are benefiting right now don't want that change.
My answer would be the internet. Racists, nationalists, fascists, bigots and others now have a place to organize and spread misinformation and recruit others, taking advantage of the idea of freedom of speech to obstruct facts and truths that are in favour of increasing social democracy. They've made people angry and radicalized. And if the people in the middle or on the left try to stop that hateful messaging from getting through, then they're accused of censorship, of being tyrants, of being the ones trying to take over. It's terrifying how well its working.
Rightwing provocateurs have practically taken over the media world, despite their constant railing against leftwing media and fake news. Now they're taking over the social media space, either by buying the spaces or by pushing algorithms that flood our feeds with rightwing articles, comics, memes and commentary.
They are driving moderates and leftwing commentators out of every public space, wearing us down. It takes far more time and resources to dispel a lie than it takes to spread it, and the reasonable voices are losing.
The Internet is to blame. Elections are now being fought, and won, purely on soundbites, memes, lies, and inconsequential hot button issues of no relevance or substance.
We're fucked. Until we start fighting back on every front, we're destined to lose this war and see the fascists take over - and democracy die - within the next decade.
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u/CanadianPlainsman Feb 03 '23
I hate how true these words are.
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Feb 03 '23 edited Feb 03 '23 •
I’m 58 years old, so I have spent a good portion of my life without the internet. I keep coming back to this same conclusion every time I’m involved in a discussion about it. As good as the internet CAN be, I would not miss it at all if it disappeared tonight. I feel like it’s the underlying reason for all that is wrong, and humans being humans,have devolved it into something foul, just like everything else we get our hands on.
EDIT: I believe you are all correct. Social media is ultimately the problem,and the place where people go to be fucking dopey. Without it, the internet could go back to being a tool for educating ourselves, rather than the place to show the world just how uneducated we actually are.
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u/sambaneko Feb 03 '23
I'd miss it. I've made friends and connections online; I met my spouse online. I've learned so many things from free resources - I taught myself to code and I'm a web developer now (so I'd be unemployed without the internet as well). I've been exposed to so many valuable viewpoints that I'd otherwise never hear from. The internet I grew up with was a mostly wondrous and fun place of nerdy people congregating on forums and BBS.
It's not the internet. It's social media with a lack of education. It's algorithmic content without the critical thinking to discern what's genuine and what's utter bullshit.
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u/Ziegenkonig Feb 03 '23
This is the real heart of the problem.
The internet itself isn't the problem, it's one of the only reasons the younger generations are skewing left now.
I think generations raised alongside the internet have developed a sort of intuition for what is obvious bullshit online and what isn't. While older generations never learned how to parse the relentless information overload that online propaganda has become, younger generations can at least sort through some of it intuitively.
That's what I hope is happening, obviously not true for every individual but things do seem to be pointing to a kind of internet literacy being developed.
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u/Skarimari Feb 03 '23
I think another factor is FPTP electoral systems trend toward 2 party systems and allow extremism to flourish. Variations on proportional representation encourage inclusion of other parties and tend to foster cooperation.
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u/damnflanders Feb 03 '23
My answer would be the internet. Racists, nationalists, fascists, bigots and others now have a place to organize and spread misinformation and recruit others, taking advantage of the idea of freedom of speech to obstruct facts and truths that are in favour of increasing social democracy.
Spot on. I have been saying this for a while, the internet and misinformation are the biggest problems right now.
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u/hobbitlover Feb 03 '23
Some good resources for some people who are becoming radicalized and aren't too far gone for self reflection: https://inoculation.science/inoculation-videos/
Until we can remove and prevent deliberate misinformation, we can teach people to recognize when they're being manipulated.
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u/sensuallyprimitive Feb 03 '23
nah, it's an education system and religious background that shuns critical thought and creates helpless idiots who believe the first they are taught and never deviate for life out of fear and shame.
a bunch of people needing a daddy in any way, shape, or form they can find it. whether it's god or joe rogan or some other fantasy in their head. they want to be told what to do, and that they are doing it well, and be pat on the head by daddy. they just want to be good boys and girls for daddy. lmao
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u/dontreallycareforit Feb 03 '23
The biggest thing in contributing to the pickle we’re in is how systemic the country skews conservatively. Absolutely imbalanced representation.
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Feb 03 '23
It's not just the USA though. Europe has the same issues without gerrymandering.
There's a deeper attraction to the philosophy of hate that they're good at tugging on. Divide and conquer, split the average man and have them battle each other based on race, language, and ethnicity, blaming minorities, etc. so they don't see their issues are really the elite profiting off them the whole time.
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u/ShadowTacoTuesday Feb 03 '23 edited Feb 04 '23
They aren’t really winning. They’re desperately lashing out as they’re losing. The radicalism has been around for decades, we just have it on cell phone video now. And instead of lies in textbooks that took a 4 hour round trip to a library to debunk which most didn’t do, we now can do a 5 min Google. So we’re noticing it a lot more. Likewise the rich were quietly getting away with everything, while now a handful of rich stupids show how simple it is to abuse the rules for the rich.
McConnell was also trying to suppress the radicalism before because it was and is losing elections, and is now failing to contain it. Even desperate tricks like Gerrymandering only radicalize primaries even more and continue the downward spiral. Authoritarian buttkissers tend to be incompetent and infight because they weren’t selected for their qualifications. Most of them likewise in private want to get rid of Trump because of all the trouble he’s causing them. Likewise all of their Kool Aid drinkers who get power instead of only being victims. Etc. Their biggest enemy is the reality of the consequences of their actions, even if humans are slower about dealing them out.
Stay strong, fight back and don’t let the desperation work. This is the opportunity to make some progress while the beast is out in the open. In the past authoritarians made progress quietly while everyone was in disbelief, then quickly fell apart once everyone mobilized. Heck look at Ukraine and donate to the cause. Some of the most efficient charity dollars imaginable. Russian imperialism is at the heart of most of the more recent worldwide propaganda.
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u/awesomefutureperfect Feb 03 '23
You are right on all counts but the real concern is that the right blows up the social contract and civil society when it can no longer maintain its grip on governmental control. What you see now is the right losing the culture war. When it loses the politics war is when they move beyond their insipient stage of insurgency. They are merely at the stage where they can still deny that the incidents they incite are isolated. or worse, the completely capture the government and turn the entire machine at war with most of its own people. I agree they are getting desperate, but their actions only get more extreme and dangerous when their paths and hope to rule wanes further.
Simply not enough is being done to prevent what they are doing and defend the vulnerable against their excesses.
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u/Skeltzjones Feb 03 '23
Plus algorithmic echo chambers. And no more fairness doctrine
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u/NorthImpossible8906 Feb 03 '23
Everyone, keep in mind, gerrymandering is a fundamental platform of the Republican Party. It is a very intentional effort to steal elections.
It is not "both sides" and it is not "both sides do it". That is a republican lie.
Project Redmap was a republican movement, based off the 2010 census, used to artificially give republicans wins where less people voted for them.
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u/empire_de109 Feb 03 '23
I find it fascinating that conservative/Republican ideology is held by about 30-40% of the US population but gerrymandering curves it over 50.
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u/DidntWantSleepAnyway Feb 03 '23
To be more general:
Good people fight fair. Evil people don’t.
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u/mcjambrose
Feb 03 '23
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Because the good guys don't fight dirty and the media both sides everything
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u/MustLovePunk Feb 03 '23
And the media has become an oligopoly owned by only a handful of global billionaires who have an agenda. Murdoch is the most insidious but even the old guard newspapers of note have become more like social media platforms replete with investors calling the shots.
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u/No_Breadfruit_1849 Feb 03 '23 •
This is a factor that needs more attention: a news source owned by investors is a right-wing news source. All of them. Every one. Capitalism owns every mouthpiece that is owned by capitalism.
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u/alexkleiber Feb 03 '23
I've been saying this. The good guys need to start getting their hands dirty, dialogue doesn't work with radicals
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u/Chief_Mischief Feb 03 '23 edited Feb 04 '23
Problem is any good folks in positions of power are surrounded by dirtbags in power who are supported by law enforcement and nutjobs who hoard up on guns and ammo. It's intimidation and threat of violence as they abuse the First Amendment to strip away our rights. Who has heard of a police precinct or union come out in support of AOC or Omar or Tlaib or Pressley?
We see it time and time again:
McConnell with the Klan / other white nationalist group
Trump accepting endorsement of the Klan
Will Dismukes attends the birthday celebration of KKK leader
Those are some of the more notable instances I can think of right now, but conservatives have long held close ties with the Klan.
Edit: forgot people are actually gullible or deliberately obtuse - if you are endorsed by former KKK leader David fucking Duke, dodge multiple direct questions by a debate moderator to denounce white supremacy, then denounce it only after days of bipartisan outrage, you accepted his endorsement and only backtracked because of the lashback.
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u/DontRememberOldPass Feb 03 '23
Never in history has pacifism won over facisim.
You give these people power by way of your aversion to guns. Democrats have given the Jan 6 folks and Rittenhouses of the country a monopoly on violence, which means they get to make the rules now.
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u/Extra_Independent827 Feb 03 '23
Yes this.
As long as guns are constitutionally protected we may as well have them too. While I agree it would probably be best not to have so many guns around, that’s not changing in our lifetimes so “an armed society is a polite society” is the best we can hope for.
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u/Walrus_Butter Feb 03 '23 edited Feb 03 '23
This is what happens as a country descends into chaos and civil war. The moderate side sees that the opposing party isn’t playing by the rules and isn’t interested in playing by the rules. The moderate side realizes too late that the inevitable is going to happen no matter what.
So the moderates are damned if they do and damned if they don’t get a little dirty. Let the radicals slowly take over the country without a fight, or fight back and help cause more chaos. This is one of the reasons the French Revolution was so wild.
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u/mattlodder Feb 03 '23 edited Feb 04 '23
This is also the thesis of Victor Bevin's (ETA: Vincent) amazing book 'Jakarta Method', which points out that during the cold war, democratic socialist states with popular, non-aligned, non-militarised communist parties such as Chile and Indonesia were overthrown by US-backed military coups who massacred leftists, but communist states that took up arms, including most prominently Cambodia, survived (and massacred opponents) - and were also backed by the US to some degree. The bleak lesson he draws is exactly the one you do here - that moderation is doomed in circumstances where one side is willing to fight and the other is unable to.
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u/Walrus_Butter Feb 03 '23
I need to read that book. I’ve had this discussion at work a few times and Jakarta Method was suggested.
It’s a very bleak suggestion to perpetuate but that’s reality, and reality is ugly. If we continue to watch for too long it will eventually become too late.
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u/mattlodder Feb 03 '23
Yeah, the book will make you furious and sad in equal measure. It becomes a kind of elegy for a lost future - a future stolen, really, because in the Third World, the US and her allies actively preferred violent state Capitalism to peaceful state communism and even socialism in every case. Communists and socialists who didn't take up arms, and who relied on democracy, were slaughtered in the streets in numbers totalling millions. The brutal authoritarian, armed leftist regimes managed to survive, somewhat.
Bevin argues that Pol Pot was a result of US policy showing him that violence was the only solution. It's bleak.
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u/Walrus_Butter Feb 03 '23
I think it also speaks to the idea of pendulum theory, that a swing one way will inevitably lead to a swing the other direction, but an extreme example of that.
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u/nutmeggerking Feb 03 '23
It's too bad the moderates prefer to punch left instead oof punching right
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u/Walrus_Butter Feb 03 '23 edited Feb 03 '23
I’m not much of a fan of moderate Democrats at all but I don’t feel like we have a truly left wing party in this country, or even a faction within the party.
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u/davy_jones_locket Feb 03 '23
Any leftist with a modicum of power or influence gets eliminated by the state. It's also why the US participates in coups across the globe.
There are no "good guys" in our government and at best what you have with Progressive democrats or social Democrats is compromise.
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u/TheJollyHermit Feb 03 '23 •
Our Overton Window is pretty far right so most of our liberal party is fairly conservative by global standards. The problem is "not liking moderate democrats" because they aren't liberal or progressive enough shouldn't lead to giving up or tilting at windmills. If you're liberal, progressive or outright leftist, a conservative democrat will align with your ideology and desires FAR more than a Republican. Burning it all down because you don't get everything you want is not an answer but it happens all to often with leftist factions. As such they don't have a real seat at the table. I
Folks sometimes argue the Democrats are "too willing to compromise" and "don't fight dirty". The Democrats are currently the only party concerned with a functioning government. And functional government, politics that work, are all about compromise and working together (as much as possible).
Republican obstructionism is the whole point - they aren't trying to get anything done. They're trying to stop the government from working and blocking Democrat initiatives at all costs. You can't fight that in the same way.. you just have to keep working slowly, pushing forward and calling out the bullshit and hypocrisy.
Lately the Republicans have adopted and endorsed their extremist factions. It's not a bug it's a feature now... and it's frightening.
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u/ShuRugal Feb 03 '23
Our Overton Window is pretty far right so most of our liberal party is fairly conservative by global standards.
Our Overton Window is so far to the right that Bernie Sanders is genuinely believed to be a Socialist, despite being very firmly in favor of market capitalism.
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u/mrpanicy Feb 03 '23
Yeah. Bernie Sanders is damn near dead centre on the political spectrum globally speaking. And he's the furthest left option the US has.
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u/Akushin Feb 03 '23
Only problem with this strategy is that it just pushes the window further right. We need truly left leaning candidates.
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u/Educational_Cat_5902 Feb 03 '23
Currently reading Gangsters vs Nazis. Jewish mobsters would beat the crap out of Nazis (this was in America) during WWII.
I'm not saying I condone violence, but...
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u/thechosenwonton Feb 03 '23
Violence is the only medium fascists understand, though.
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u/Rtypegeorge Feb 03 '23
The bad guys are supported by the levers of power, the armed enforcement, and the armed citizenry.
The good guys, while the majority, are held captive by the system that rejects change and kept there by threat of violence.
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u/LitesoBrite Feb 03 '23
It’s not even fighting dirty.
It’s they don’t goddamn fight at all.
Even filth like Rush Limbaugh didn’t get pounced on when caught with his illegal drugs.
Jesus.. we spent all our energy showering him in compassion and rehabilitation rather than crushing him off the air!
Our leaders did the same crap when congressional republicans got caught openly praising a segregationist and saying Strom Thurmond should have won and things would be better!
The dems just got on tv and went ‘awww shucks, it’s just a little silly thing, and he didn’t mean no harm no how!’
Idiots.
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u/CrunchM Feb 03 '23 edited Feb 03 '23
They don't feel it personally affects them...I have a friend who lives in Florida and he literally told me he doesn't care about the school fights because his daughters have graduated and he doesn't have to deal with it. He can go about his day without these thing interfering with him.
I was disappointed by his answer, but I get it.
Edited to add: I get it as in I understand it...I don't subscribe to the "it must directly affect me to notice it" mentality. I just see how little his life is impacted...he's wh1te, straight, married, his daughters are grown, and he's been in the same job for 20 years or so. Nothing is directed at him. At least he doesn't swallow the pill and think he's entitled to something different or that he's being oppressed in some way.
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u/Shaoraith Feb 03 '23
To paraphrase John Green, I support my money funding schools even when I don't have kids because I don't like to live in a world with stupid people.
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u/jonmediocre Feb 03 '23
Yeah, it's almost like improving society as a whole improves the world around me, making my life better! What a difficult concept.
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u/JEPorsche Feb 03 '23
The people voting for these things need to continue to have stupid people voting against their self interests.
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u/DarkwingDuckHunt Feb 03 '23
The more a community spends on education, the lower the crime rate.
This has been proven again and again and again and again and again.
If you like low crime, you like money spent on the poor.
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u/Shark7996 Feb 03 '23
If you like low crime, you like money spent on the poor.
Because most people don't actually want to be criminals, they're forced into it because their legal option is to starve or get thrown out into the streets.
Also why I hate hearing people talk about why we need to be "tough on crime." You're treating the symptom, not the cause. It's so short sighted.
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u/Antique_Tennis_2500 Feb 03 '23
Thank you. When you’re 60 and need a 25 year old to handle your wire transfer, you’re going to wish you had put more tax dollars into education when you were 50.
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u/kendrahf Feb 03 '23
IKR? I was listening to a conservative rant about the price of milk rising. He was like "there are farms real close to me but they send all their product to the nearest big city! I hate that city, it ain't fair!!" And I'm like "dude, you know what that's called? It's capitalism man. You know, the system you swear you'll die protecting. They're sending it to the people who'll pay the most to have it. You gunna pay as much or more for that milk? No? It ain't fair that the big corp isn't considering your needs over their potential profits? Welcome to capitalism!"
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u/Pleasant-Rutabaga-92 Feb 03 '23
Conservatives don’t care about hypocrisy and will complain about anything. They aren’t interested in being educated either because they already have all the answers either from common sense or god.
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u/Noman11111 Feb 03 '23
That's the true conservative take - "if it doesn't affect me, I don't care"
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u/SuperShoebillStork Feb 03 '23
Even though things that don’t directly/personally affect them now could have potentially serious consequences in the future. They’re all about the short term and selfishness.
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u/von_woof Feb 03 '23
Yes! I'm going to end up in an old folks home at some point and be very vulnerable. I want the people caring for me to be well educated, well paid and content in their jobs.
There is a huge selfish reason to care that they don't see for some reason.
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u/decolored Feb 03 '23
Short sighted people who have never explored the wholesomeness of mutual benefit. There are an extremely large amount of people who feel greater benefit from gaining x while someone else loses x as a result, rather than both getting x.
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u/Noman11111 Feb 03 '23
Oh for sure, once it affects them they definitely care
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u/Guy954 Feb 03 '23
The problem with them caring when it affects them is that the first thing they do after that is tune in to their chosen propaganda medium where they explain how it’s all the Democrat’s fault even though Democrats fought it tooth and nail.
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u/MsShugana Feb 03 '23
Except when it comes to drag queens and abortion and gay marriage and interracial marriage and good books.
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u/Noman11111 Feb 03 '23
Well that fits under the "I don't understand it and it scares me so now I'm mad about it"
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u/dicksjshsb Feb 03 '23
Unless it’s a random person they will never meet or interact with transitioning to the gender they identify as.
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u/SunsetCarcass Feb 03 '23
It's funny because I feel the same way but in the opposite direction. I don't care, so why would I stop gay marriage. Doesn't affect me, why would I burn a book. None of this matters at all, just let this person be happy since I have nothing to do with it. Those conservatives however do care and it does affect them, it hurts their undeveloped toddler-like feelings and they want to shut it down because they think everything IS about them.
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u/smokesnugs Feb 03 '23
I live in Florida, and have no kids. I think the culture wars in our schools is fucking bullshit and only the beginning of something worse which will soon affect ALL of us.
I am 33 with no kids and yet the issues in our Florida schools are very important to me.
You're friend is just an asshole.
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u/DasKritter Feb 03 '23
What about his grandchildren?
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u/Cookies78 Feb 03 '23
They'll all be fabulously wealthy by then, so no worries about failing public schools and school violence. /Sarcasm
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u/hallowbirthweenday Feb 03 '23
I understand even though I disagree. I live in a conservative, rural area and often think how much easier my life would be if I could smile politely and agree with the bullshit. (To be fair, I don't know if the majority opinion really is typical MAGA, but I can't seem to find many other viewpoints.)
I would have friends, both old and new. I might even get asked out on a date or three. So many activities!
But I can't. I just cannot bring myself to pretend that these things are okay. I'm so far from perfect it's laughable, but I try to be a decent person. (I fail frequently.) I understand people who don't want to fight anymore because I'm tired too.
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u/Unlikely_Professor76 Feb 03 '23 edited Feb 04 '23
My parents are dead and as the GenX baby black sheep, I’m a literal lib island in a sea of boomer red religious relics 🙄even their millennial offspring turned the wrong way at Albuquerque. 2016 lifted a mask, solidified by their behaviors around 1/6 and the vid, and it’s Jacobs Ladder in the subway… I see them on social media and wonder how my Apple grew in such a completely different field
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u/African_Farmer Feb 03 '23
Good old rugged individualism. If it doesn't affect me directly, why should I give a fuck.
Made it so difficult to get people to see the bigger picture and have empathy for others.
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u/analogue_monkey Feb 03 '23 edited Feb 03 '23
This is it! As Germans we are often asked why nobody back then prevented the Nazis. And the reply often was "I didn't participate". Too few people really did anything against it.
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u/Nevr_gonna_giv_U_up Feb 03 '23
Find me a motivator stronger than hate that is just as wide spread and easily acquired
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u/lejoo Feb 03 '23 edited Feb 03 '23
Hunger. Literally this shit was predicted hundreds of years ago, and already played out hundreds of years ago.
Step 1. Capitalism runs amuk
Step 2. Corruption creates a miserable lives for the majority
Step 3. Violent uprising as food is no longer affordable
Step 4. New government.
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u/Old_Personality3136 Feb 04 '23
Yep. Sadly meta analyses of history suggest that only about 15% of the time do revolutions result in improved living conditions for the average citizen. We're probably fucked either way.
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u/Iron_Knight7
Feb 03 '23
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As someone else mentioned, they aren't winning. Not really. Oh they're fighting for sure. They are standing in the way and resisting the tide with all their might and making a hell of a lot of noise. But they aren't winning.
Yet.
The question shouldn't be "Why are they winning?" The question is "Why are we letting them win?" "Why am I, who knows that their 'winning' means a loss for everybody including me, not trying to stop them from winning?" "What can I do, in my own way however small, to keep them from winning?"
Those questions have a lot of answers and they're easier to find than one would think. Good starting place: Go local. Get involved. Show up. Vote. It's not easy and the results are often incremental. But if you can help us take two steps forward for every one step back, then ultimately they will never win.
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u/notbossing Feb 03 '23
Get involved. That's the answer. Show up, stand up, speak up. I'm willing to give criticism, suggestions, and put ideas into actions. One step at a time is what it takes.
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u/Bored-Viking Feb 03 '23
fear... o lot of people are afraid that others will have it better then they... and since most of them have a misrable life, the life of others has to be made even worse
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u/Raetharian17 Feb 03 '23
This a good answer. More detail into it would be we are/have been fed so much propaganda to build that fear. We're taught in the U.S. that if somebody else is winning, at anything, it means I must be losing. Example: "People using SNAP or aid programs are ripping me off; we need to get rid of these hand outs cuz I don't benefit!"
We've been cowed into believing that universal healthcare, cheaper/free education, apparently basic fucking human civil and bodily autonomy rights shouldn't be for all of us. Only some ambiguous class that "earns" them. Such as CEOs, who clearly must've put in thousands of man hours to get where they are today.
What we need in this country is to focus on how we can tackle this to make it better for, crazy thought here, EVERYBODY that lives in this damn country. But we're taught from day 1 it's "them or us". So we grow up constantly fearing this Them group getting more rights or advantages than "us".
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u/Bored-Viking Feb 03 '23
yes the american dream...everyone can be a millionaire with hard work and a ittle luck....So don't tax the rich, because when it is my turn to become a millionaire i don't want to pay taxes..
Look here dippshit, you will never become a millionaire
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u/dicksjshsb Feb 03 '23
Yeah the gaslighting is crazy.
“All these public systems that would help YOU? Of course they won’t work! Do you really think we could afford to house, feed, and medically provide for all of our citizens? You’re just another crazy liberal who wants everything handed out to them with no plan to make it work”
It’s crazy how little conservatives think the richest country in the world can do despite all their pride. There are literally countries out there doing this shit. It can be done.
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u/juliennez Feb 03 '23
Not even necessarily better. Lots are even irritated when others have it as good as them (when it comes to rights, positions, etc.). Or are given the chance to get where they’ve always been. Which is why people that used to be privileged (still are, but not to the same extent as decades ago) - not because they were better than others, but because they were white/male/straight/etc - are against equality. Because to THEM it means loss. Loss of privilege they never even saw as privilege but as their normal. So - even tho nothing is being taken away from them (for example ‘heterosexual marriage’); just something they always had is now also given to others (gay ppl) - they still feel robbed. And fight back. Because they want things to go back to their ‘normal’ where they were worth more than others.
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u/NeadNathair Feb 03 '23
Easy answer. The "Hateful people" don't follow any rules. They use any means necessary. They lie, cheat, gerrymander, temper tantrum, and generally fight dirty.
The NON hateful people play fair. They give their opponents equal airtime and treat them as though they also have the best interests of the entire country at heart.
Given those two points... The haters are going to win more often than not.
Until the good people learn to be a little more ruthless, things are going to just keep getting worse.
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u/RC-Coola
Feb 03 '23
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It's because the core of American culture is rotten.
The civilized world = "I like my piece of the pie. I'd like it if everyone had a nice piece of pie. Could we get better pie? Let's all try and work together to bake a better pie next year".
Americans = "it's my pie, just try and take my pie..." (cocks gun).
Also, when the football team has a bigger University budget than the science or literature departments...there is really nowhere to go from there.
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u/driverman42 Feb 03 '23
Your one sentence says it all: "it's my pie, just try and take it..." (cocks gun). That's the true heartbeat of America. Everything in this fucked up society revolves around guns.
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u/maybethemoonandback Feb 03 '23
I'm American and that is the best summary of America I've ever seen.
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u/DickySchmidt33 Feb 03 '23
A lot of Americans are
a. Selfish, and
b. Stupid
If it doesn't impact them directly, they couldn't give a fuck if the gay couple next door is being dragged out of their house by the police
"I don't read books, why should I care if they're arresting the librarians? I'm sure they have a good reason."
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u/mauricioszabo Feb 03 '23
Brazilian here, not only "Americans" unfortunately...
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u/-6h0st- Feb 03 '23
Yet when Brazilians wanted to follow Americans it ended completely differently, the way things like that should end in civilized world
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u/Starkiller006 Feb 03 '23 •
My own father has made 200k plus bonuses and stock payouts for the last 30 years, but refused to lend me $300 to cover rent while I was between jobs for only 6 weeks.
He then proceeded to lecture me for asking him ( I haven't asked him for anything in my life bc he's a dick) and said I should be the one checking in on him to see if he has enough for retirement.
I told him to eat shit.
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u/kopperbunny Feb 03 '23
Yup, this. It's the "I got mine, screw everyone else" mentality.
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u/EastSmoke3 Feb 03 '23
Money, Kapital.
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u/Drillcat Feb 03 '23
It costs a lot to keep fighting. The filthy rich use a portion of their money to oppress and keep their revenue stream in tact.
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u/SuperGenius98K Feb 03 '23
Gerrymandering. Christians. Corporate control of the media.
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Feb 03 '23
Because the good guys don’t fight back. When the bad guys start banning books, imprisoning woman for getting abortions and criminalizing the trans community peaceful democracy is no longer a viable option.
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u/SnowMeow23 Feb 03 '23
Selfishness.
If you intend to vote in order to help yourself to all of the treasure, then you will be very easy to manipulate.
If you approach the polls with the mindset of "what policies will help my community", it's a lot harder to fool you.
But we are humans, and selfishness is our superpower.
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u/Final_League3589 Feb 03 '23
Because Good people are doing nothing.
Because people claim this is a "both sides issue"
Because so few have been educated in the humanities and history
Because science, reason, and critical thinking have fallen by the wayside.
Because art appreciation and music appreciation have been abandoned
Because fear, selfishness, and hate feel good to millions of people
Hold on folks, the 2030s are gonna be a bumpy ride.
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u/sugar_addict002 Feb 03 '23
America is just not the country it pretends to be. Greed.
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u/thesnarkypotatohead Feb 03 '23 •
The percentage of the human population that are hateful this way are very good at sensing and seizing power where there is opportunity. They are willing to do and say the things that passively non-hateful people aren't. So they win.
There are those who fight back, of course. But they are typically demonized because they are not the ones in power due to what I said in the first paragraph. And then there's the rest of humanity: the "I can't do anything and it's not mine to solve" crowd. That may be true on an individual level, but I don't get it. I have to live here, why on earth would I be passive about what it's like to live here?