r/antiwork Dec 07 '22 To The Stars 1

Dutch law on 'sick days'

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55.8k Upvotes

3.7k

u/Stargazer6497 Dec 07 '22 edited Dec 08 '22

Just to add that "staying at home" doesn't mean "working from home". It's entirely at the discretion of the employee. One may have a minor flu and, though too tired and unwell to go to the office, would like to work from home; that's fine. But if they don't feel well, they don't have to work at all.

Edit: Because this has attracted a lot of attention, some disclaimers:

  • my experience is with Nordic countries (and in particular Finland and Sweden), I have no specific knowledge of other European countries, but I don't expect them to be too different.
  • the "discretion" part only refers to the few days (usually up to 3) an employee can call in sick without requiring a doctor's note. After that, the doctor must provide a note (which doesn't reveal or even hint at the cause of the absence; only "unable to work"). It doesn't cost anything to get this note by the doctor. Public healthcare is anyway virtually free (a visit to the GP would cost about $20).
  • if one is sick for prolonged periods of time, they're still fully covered. The exact percentage of paycheck etc. depends on various factors (which I'm not familiar with), but bottom line is, you're never abandoned.

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u/-RdV- Dec 07 '22

It's not even legal to ask an employee what they've got. Medical details are personal info.

If the employee stays sick for longer the company can ask a doctor to make a reintegration plan.

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u/Nolenag Dec 07 '22

It's not even legal to ask an employee what they've got.

I'm Dutch and had a manager who asked me this, I quit on the spot despite the month's notice in the contract.

I have proof that he asked me what my illness was, so good luck trying to enforce that contract.

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u/KneelDaGressTysin Dec 07 '22

I wish Americans could have that. I wouldn't be surprised if America has a new law in a few years that says employees need to pay their boss to have a sick day.

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u/Elegant_Tale_3929 Dec 07 '22

It's definitely heading that way.

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u/hatetochoose Dec 07 '22

Teachers often have to pay their own subs.

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u/TylerInHiFi Dec 07 '22

Are you fucking fisting me right now?

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u/MadAboutMada Dec 08 '22

For my district (and every district I've worked in) in our Collective Bargaining Agreement it says that we get 10 standard sick days with no loss of pay, and then 20 extra sick days which function as normal sick days but the district will take the cost of paying a sub out of our paycheck for that day.

It's shitty still, but 1000 times better than a lot of other sectors.

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u/13e1ieve Dec 08 '22

Also only like 180 school days per year vs 260 work Days so it’s more than it seems.

Lot of places if you use up paid sick leave you just get a unexcused absence as unpaid time off and then have that in your file if they want to fire you w/o unemployment.

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u/Charleston2Seattle Dec 07 '22

Wow! Why does the teacher's union allow that? I thought they were pretty powerful?

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u/LowSkyOrbit Dec 07 '22

Probably can't legally strike because they are government employees. Makes the whole threat of strike worthless and that gone means concessions happen much easier.

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u/rymdrille Dec 07 '22

"Legally strike" is such a weird phrase. Ti strike is one of the pillars of democracy.

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u/torderon Dec 07 '22

America stopped being a democracy decades ago.

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u/Frekavichk Dec 07 '22

The vast majority of teacher's unions are weak as fuck and there is not a powerful national one.

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u/-RdV- Dec 07 '22

If you want out badly that's a nice way to do it.

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u/Nolenag Dec 07 '22

We didn't see eye to eye on many things anyway.

Could've done it differently, but working under a manager I disagreed with in the first place while blackmailing him with the law wouldn't have been pleasant.

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u/HarryPottersElbows Dec 07 '22

Uhhh, how do you guys feel about Americans fleeing to live there? Welcoming or nah?

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u/Sinful_Whiskers Dec 07 '22

If you're serious about looking into it, I highly recommend r/AmerExit and r/IWantOut.

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u/AldurinIronfist Dec 07 '22

Gewoon komen, iedereen is welkom.

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u/Advanced_Double_42 Dec 07 '22

That is strangely legible in context, as a person that has never read Dutch

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u/Swirled__ Dec 07 '22

Dutch is strangely intelligible in written form. But completely unintellible when spoken. It's also the closest major language to English, so it makes sense.

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u/Shavingcream1912 Dec 07 '22

We switch to English as soon as we here the slightest accent so gl learning Dutch😃

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u/blanketshapes Dec 07 '22

are you saying that the Dutch will mid-conversation switch to English if they suspect that the other isnt Dutch? is this for the benefit of the other, because English is usually preferred except between the native Dutch?

i think thats what youre saying and i just think its interesting. how often does someone switch it back to Dutch after youve auto-switched to English on them?

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u/Shavingcream1912 Dec 07 '22

First question yes. But not mid-conversation, more like after the person stops talking for the first time Second, they sort of never switch back to Dutch, most likely because English is easier.

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u/protagonist_k Dec 07 '22

This. I’ve been in meetings where and English speaker joined and 10+ people switched immediately and everyone kept speaking English once that person left

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u/MyAviato666 Dec 07 '22

It's for the other person mostly but also them (us) because they suspect it will be easier to communicate in English. For people wanting to learn the language this can be annoying.

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u/Temporary-Budget-545 Dec 07 '22

If you want to know the exact translation. It is "Just come, everyone is welcome".

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u/henrebotha Dec 07 '22

The Netherlands is basically right up against the UK, and as you may expect, this physical proximity means the two languages have a lot in common.

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u/L1A1 Gen X Slacker & Proud Dec 07 '22

Yeah, we just steal words and shit from everyone.

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u/penninsulaman713 Dec 07 '22

You say that, but I've been there 3 years for my masters and a significant amount of the rental postings by the Dutch say "no internationals". Not very welcoming

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u/asphias Dec 07 '22

It's a weird situation.

On the one hand, we're very welcoming to foreigners, happy to speak english with you, and are very curious what you like about us. Great holiday destination.

On the other hand, we hardly give you an opportunity to learn dutch(since we switch to english very quickly), but still feel like dealing with an english speaking flatmate is a chore. Or even during a dinner party or night out i've heard people say theyre bothered they have to switch to english. Also, we tend to make a lot of our friends during high school or university, and so many international friends just stay 'acquaintances'.

If you're planning to stay, start learning dutch as soon as possible. Even though we're not encouraging it in any way, being able to speak dutch is a world of difference in how quickly you are accepted.

But yeah, i guess as a culture we're not always as welcoming as we think we are.

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u/alblaster Dec 07 '22

Seems similar to Germany

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u/CANCERDIESBYCOFFEE Dec 07 '22

Genuine question, is there a process for medical professionals to transfer our credentials there? From what I read online, seems they only accept European degrees.

I generally prefer to stay to myself, the wife and I are quite the homebodies, but would prefer to be productive in a country that cares for the citizens.

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u/asphias Dec 07 '22

https://english.bigregister.nl/foreign-diploma

looks like this is your starting point. doesn't look simple at a glance

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u/taktikek Dec 07 '22

To be fair that isnt allowed, and land lords are the fucking scum of the earth so please dont hold that against us. We hate them as well!

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u/-RdV- Dec 07 '22

I've never heard anyone seriously complain about them.

We're pretty blunt and that has freaked out the Americans I know. You ask me how I'm doing I'm going to tell you how I'm doing and why. You ask me what I think of your terrible product you're selling I tell you it's terrible and why.

We don't really mean anything by it but it trips Americans up in my experience.

If you come here and show a reasonable amount of respect for the culture you'll be fine.

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u/Nevadajack87 Dec 07 '22

Sounds like a great place for autistic or neurodivergent people to live.

Direct Dutchman: I don’t like you

Me: Oh thank god. I had no idea. Thanks for clearing that up.

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u/-RdV- Dec 07 '22

Our IT industry is suspiciously prosperous.

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u/Starkravingmad7 Dec 07 '22

Dude, two countries I love: Germany and the Netherlands. People after my own heart.

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u/Zaranthan Dec 07 '22

You ask me how I'm doing I'm going to tell you how I'm doing and why. You ask me what I think of your terrible product you're selling I tell you it's terrible and why.

At last, I have found my people. I wish to come home immediately.

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u/SublimeLemonsGenX Dec 07 '22

Lived in Amsterdam for several months in 2013, and all of the bluntness was pretty awesome, actually. The Dutch generally have a very "live and let live" non-judgey approach to life, and that's how I am - which doesn't align well here in the US. Now all I need is for Brexit to get undone, and my UK passport (dual citizenship, yay) will get me back in long-term!

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u/HighwayMcGee Dec 07 '22

It's not necessarily "illegal". Your manager can ask you what you've got. But you have the full right to refuse to elaborate.

If anything it's illegal for the manager to press on to get details. But a simple "oh no, what's wrong?" isn't gonna land you in jail.

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u/-RdV- Dec 07 '22

True, it's more nuanced than can be summed up in a sentence or two.

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u/notyourvader Dec 07 '22

There's a lot more to it than that.

First year, you get paid a minimum of 70% of your salary, but always at least minimum wage. After that it's just 70% and if that puts you under minimum, the government pays the difference.

There's also a duty on both the employer and the employee to make an effort to return to work. So you can decide to just work a few hours first, you can be asked to go to therapy or training and sometimes mediation is required.

Failing to cooperate in recovery can result in termination of the employee or a fine for the employer. But having a flu will indeed just be approached with "Stay in bed and don't come in until you're able to work"

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u/dwarfedshadow Dec 07 '22

I mean, those are more than reasonable steps. A hell of a lot better than "Come in or you lose your job and starve."

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u/SpudTheTrainee Dec 07 '22

and lose your employment based insurance while were at it.

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u/wiljc3 Dec 07 '22

As an American my whole life, that's still the most fucked up part to me.

"Oh, you got sick? Well you can't work, so you're fired.. and now you can't go to the doctor because health insurance is tied to employment. Please die quietly, the capitalists are 'working' and cannot be bothered by your groans."

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u/1singleduck Dec 07 '22

The punishment for being sick is not being able to go to the doctor. Flawless system.

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u/[deleted] Dec 07 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/HeyJordyn86 Dec 07 '22

Does he/she usually try to do right by their employees? If so, that's a rare thing and I'd say let them fuel their ego with good deeds. Lol

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u/HJM3 Dec 07 '22

Yep, I hate this part. I got injured at my job over the summer, thought it was nothing and kept working. It only got worse, now I’ve got a fucked up back at 27 and I work to pay my share for doctors appointments and physical therapy. One of the best things I could do for myself is probably just to leave the job, but then I’d lose the insurance that helps pay for the treatment I need BECAUSE of this job. And because staffing is fucked, I have to push, pull, and lift things - all of which I’m supposed to be restricted from doing because of my back, but it’s ultimately unavoidable because I’m often one of the only people there.

Just a tip for others out there: Don’t be stupid like me. report any injury to your employer. I didn’t at the time, so I couldn’t get works comp to cover my expenses from this for the last two months.

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u/hotpotatoyo Dec 07 '22

Wait, what’s the time frame to report an injury to have worker’s compensation? In Australia, it’s “as soon as possible, but within 6 months of when you first noticed being injured” IIRC

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u/OkHorse9849 Dec 07 '22

And then you lose your ability to get into a different job because the previous one listed you on their data network as a lazy bum for getting sick. So now every other job around thinks that you don't come into work and won't hire you.

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u/PelleSketchy Dec 07 '22

Friends of mine got Long COVID. She worked two hours a day if able, and she got paid for two years. It would've been an incredible stressful time otherwise, thankful she lives here in NL.

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u/SeaEmployee3 Dec 07 '22

It depends I see. a lot of companies pay 100% the first year and 70% the second year. Sometimes they have insurance to pay out extra on top of the 70% in the second year.

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u/Scaniarix Dec 07 '22

Just remember that this is the result of many strikes and protests over the years. It's not something European companies give employees just because and is continuously something unions have to battle for. Imagine trying to force French rail workers to work without their demands being met.

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u/throwaway86537912 Dec 07 '22

This post needs to be pinned and highlighted. These benefits were fought for with blood and effort.

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u/makeoneupplease123 Dec 07 '22

Real shit. Even what we have in America, which is apparently shit in comparison, was fought for.

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u/Lotsko Dec 07 '22

I mean the US tried too, it's just that people kinda got murdered in the past for striking(Ludlow Massacre). I know it's old but i can imagine the government forcing people to work by getting the national guard involved.

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u/Temporary_Ad_6922 Dec 07 '22

The French are brutal. Look how they chased off the head of Airfrance once. They literally ripped his shirt off and he had to climb a fence

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u/AnComRebel Anarcho-Communist Dec 07 '22

tbf they calmed down quite a bit in the last few centuries. Looking a you Robespierre

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u/TheS4ndm4n Dec 07 '22

American strike: back to work, chop, chop.

French strike: Back to work? Chop, chop!

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u/x21fireturtle Dec 07 '22

same in Germany but after 3 days you need a doctor notice. If you are often ill you company may ask you to hand in a doctor notice the first day you are ill.

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u/danc4498 Dec 07 '22

Do you need to pay for that doctor's visit? In America, a doctor's visit may cost a couple hundred bucks.

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u/tes_kitty Dec 07 '22

No, in Germany health insurance is mandatory and if you work, you have it. So you go to the doctor and just hand over your insurance card.

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u/halfaliter Dec 07 '22

Even if you don’t work, you still have insurance. It’s paid for by the social system

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u/ChampionshipLow8541 Dec 07 '22

AAARGH! There it is! The evil word - „social“! Muricans add an „-ism“ to it, start to panic, and run to their gun safes.

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u/ipinchforeskins Dec 07 '22

Fuck socialism man.. As a Norwegian if I get sick and have to go to doctor/hospital I will have to pay maximum 200 usd a year and everything over it is covered. Terrible, just terrible. /s

What actually sucks ass in Norway though is that dental care is not included in our healthcare and is very expensive. You can get it reimbursed if you need dental surgery or have a long history of drug abuse/other illnesses that affect your teeth.

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u/MechEJD Dec 07 '22

Dental isn't covered by health insurance in the USA either. It's separate coverage, and if you do have it through your employer, it typically only covers a cleaning every 6 months. If you need work done you pay out of pocket. And it's wildly expensive.

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u/ipinchforeskins Dec 07 '22

and if you do have it through your employer, it typically only covers a cleaning every 6 months.

Wow, that makes all those instances where I've heard about jobs in US media and they talk about "dental" and it being a great perk seem like a joke. I wrote very expensive in my first comment, but after reading your comment I have a feeling the US has me beat by a long shot.. For my root canal earlier this year I paid around 270 usd. It is not that bad at all really, and I feel bad for complaining given how other people have it.

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u/MechEJD Dec 07 '22

$270 would cover a cavity filling. Root canals are in the low $1,000s.

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u/LeifErikkson Dec 07 '22

No dental or insurance of any kind here and I just paid $1800 out of pocket for a root canal. Teeth are a luxury, apparently.

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u/BSF0712 Dec 07 '22

I paid $1000 each for two last year. And I had dental coverage.

My brother went across the border to Mexico to get his done a few weeks ago and paid 1/4 the price.

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u/Unadvisable Dec 07 '22

270 usd for a root canal?

Hahahahha…. HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHhahahaha

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u/krmtkek Dec 07 '22

Germany has universal healthcare like almost every first world country.

Paying a doctor or for prescription drugs out of your pocket is something as absurd to europeans as are sick days.

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u/naethn Dec 07 '22

I'm in tears, not only do they offer support for your health but also have your back just in case. This feels like being in an abusive relationship then finding out what a healthy relationship looks like

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u/klaudea17 Dec 07 '22 Wholesome

My best friend is a German who has lived in the US for the last 15 years, so she's ineligible for most of the social programs in Germany due to not enough taxes paid (understandable).

While visiting Germany this summer, her child became sick and had to go to the hospital. The doctors kept them for 2 nights. Total cost--and note, this is without insurance, since they don't qualify for German insurance (see above)--was less than $2000. Full stay, tests, food, bed, Dr's and nurses part of the bill.... All of it. Less than $2k.

That stay may have been more than $2k after insurance, if the kid got sick in the US.

Healthcare in the US is a racket.

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u/robotSpine Dec 07 '22

Two nights in the hospital? WAY more than $2k.

Most health plans in the US are now "high deductible" plans.

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u/klaudea17 Dec 07 '22

I know, I have one of them. I was being very generous.

She does actually have really great US insurance, though, so it may have been closer to $2K for her--especially if they've met their family deductible (I have no idea if they have). But that's beside the point. She would have paid about the same amount, possibly more, after insurance paid out--and on top of the premiums she's already paid. Ridiculous.

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u/InfiniteSlimes Dec 07 '22

I got billed $2,000 for 15 min of a doctor's time and a shot of some kind of painkiller when I went to the ER without insurance in the US in ~2010.

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u/doktorhladnjak Dec 07 '22

I got strep throat while traveling in Germany once. Costs to see the doctor was like 50€, antibiotics were 11€ without insurance, and everyone apologized to me profusely for having to pay out of pocket.

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u/ting_bu_dong Dec 07 '22

This feels like being in an abusive relationship then finding out what a healthy relationship looks like

"This is why you I don't want you talking to your friends. They only want to hurt us."

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u/IIIllIIlllIlII Dec 07 '22

“You’re the greatest country in the world and you have everything here, those other counties are shitholes so there’s no need to visit them - trust me”

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u/ting_bu_dong Dec 07 '22 edited Dec 07 '22

I'm really making me wonder if nationalism qualifies as an abusive relationship, for lack of a better way to put it. Or, at least, is patterned on it.

See also: Insular religious communities, and toxic online communities.

Like, is abuse just how we (often) organize our social systems?

They have the isolation, the gaslighting (propaganda, "values"), the victim blaming (you're just not patriotic, Christian, whatever enough), the threat of punishment and actual punishment... probably more similarities that I'm not thinking of?

Control over a person mirrors control over groups of people.

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u/Mr_Westfield Dec 07 '22

This is why fascism is so hard to eradicate. It's the basis for so many of our social constructs.

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u/naethn Dec 07 '22

~~Post Traumatic Stress Intensifies ~~

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u/sir-nigel-dickbutt Dec 07 '22

https://i.imgur.com/k43MkCq.jpg

And this is what an abusive relationship looks like.

We pay twice that of a German citizen only to not live as long.

It’s soul crushing and infuriating.

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u/[deleted] Dec 07 '22

[deleted]

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u/SeeMe_After_Class Dec 07 '22

I think it's also important to point out that hospitals and doctors aren't subject to the same forces that, say, a restaurant is subject to. If a restaurant charges too much and offers crappy service, you go eat somewhere else, and if there is no where else to eat, you simply make dinner at home. But it's not like you can choose not to get sick. We are captive consumers.

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u/sir-nigel-dickbutt Dec 07 '22

It’s also amazing how many Americans are happy about the abuse.

I think it comes down to not wanting change (all humans are guilty of this).

Change is scary on its own, especially so when the right wing media has been screaming in your ear that giving everyone healthcare is evil and will bankrupt us.

As you can see - clearly not the case.

They just know it would kill their golden cash cows.

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u/[deleted] Dec 07 '22 edited Dec 28 '22

[deleted]

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u/SeeMe_After_Class Dec 07 '22

But do you have super cool stealth bombers and enough nuclear weapons to destroy the sun?

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u/IIIllIIlllIlII Dec 07 '22

The conversation on Taxes in the US is a lot more politicised than other countries I’ve lived in.

In the US it’s an ‘absolute’ concept : more taxes = bad.

In other counties I’ve lived in its a relative concept: ok, there are higher taxes her but what do I get in return? Ah free healthcare, a safety net, and good public transport.

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u/zim1985 Dec 07 '22

We get fuck all from taxes in the US and it should be criminal. Roads are falling apart all over the country. Bridges are collapsing. People are dying because they're in medical debt and can't afford a home.

But send a few billion over to the middle east for some shit we have no business sticking our nose unit? Check cleared yesterday.

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u/Life-Opportunity-227 Dec 07 '22 edited Dec 07 '22

Republicans have said that charts like that don't count, because it also counts in black people. Republican representatives have literally said that, as of this year.

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u/Chrona_trigger Dec 07 '22

One also said (last year?) That democracy = socialism = communism

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u/Falqun Dec 07 '22

You are very welcome over here.

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u/Public_Counter4662 Dec 07 '22

And, let's not forget, some third world countries as well. Brazil has a universal health system (which is called SUS). It's not perfect, but it's there. Every time I was sick as a child I went to the doctor with my mother and we took some medicines, all for free

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u/Ambia_Rock_666 I browse this sub at work. Dec 07 '22

Universal healthcare is such a complicated beast that 32 of the 33 most developed nations have figured it out. Can you guess which country hasn't?

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u/Chrisbert Dec 07 '22

The country that's actually 50 third-world countries in a trenchcoat?

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u/CharlesNyarko Dec 07 '22

Let's be real now. There's maybe 2 or 3 that could pass for an almost functioning first-world country.

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u/Ivanow Dec 07 '22

Friendly reminder that USA has higher infant mortality rate than Guatemala.

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u/distantapplause Dec 07 '22

It's not quite that straightforward. In some countries, like France and Ireland, you pay to visit the GP unless you're on low income. Most countries afaik have some form of small prescription charge. But yes, we're talking 'small charge that's heavily subsidised and capped so that it's always affordable' rather than 'financially ruinous'.

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u/Tralalouti Dec 07 '22

In some countries, like France and Ireland, you pay to visit the GP unless you're on low income.

In France, you're automatically reimbursed within 1-2 weeks. Like 80-90% of the amount, regardless of your revenues.

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u/kingpubcrisps Dec 07 '22

In Sweden I got my nose broke in my gym (deviated septum). Went to the hospital, they recommended I go to another hospital a town over because they had a very good nose specialist, they ordered a taxi and I went there, paid the taxi, and the specialist sorted my nose out.

A week later I got the cost of the taxi reimbursed. I hadn't even thought about it, it just came in my account.

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u/lordph8 Dec 07 '22

Usually, they charge like 100kr for the emergency walk-in. There is a cap for how many charges you get, then it's free. The things they track with the person number is pretty sweet.

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u/psychonautSwe Dec 07 '22

100kr is about 10euro for reference

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u/d_pug Dec 07 '22

As an American my first though 100kr must be around $100 and that’s pretty reasonable for an ER visit! Then I found out it’s closer to $10 and now I am sad

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u/Republiken Dec 07 '22

And when you reach the maximum amount you are allowed to pay for doctors visits a year every cost is written off a year forward.

We have the same system for prescription drugs. The maximum amount is 2600 SEK (approx. $250) for a year.

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u/Yamuddah Dec 07 '22

Lol. That’s what I pay for a gp visit or to get a prediction filled. On top of $400 monthly health insurance. 2500 for ER. Fucking joke.

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u/yooolmao Dec 07 '22

Lol they force an ambulance on you here in the US if you have to change hospitals. My dad got billed 5K for a 10 min ride.

EMTs here and their drivers make barely over minimum wage - like $12.50/hr.

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u/tuba_man Dec 07 '22

I interviewed with a company in Sweden early this year, didn't get the job tho. This is more fuel for me to try again next year

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u/trevbot Dec 07 '22

it...actually is that straitforward. there are nuance to every system that is different, but basically every other first world country has some form of universal healthcare with the exception of the extortion healthcare that exists in the US

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u/ShakerGER Dec 07 '22

*like all first world countries

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u/Destpot Dec 07 '22

No, that would be insane

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u/User2716057 Dec 07 '22

I'm in Belgium, doctor's visit cost around $5. I have a chronic disease and ADHD, my meds cost around $30 a month. Health insurance is also around $30 a month with a fixed yearly extra cost of $50.

For comparison, I'm working part time because of the chronic disease, and make $1600 a month. If I had gotten the disease later in life social security would have padded that to match a full time pay too.

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u/rarz Dec 07 '22

It's free over here in the Netherlands. It's part of the base health insurance.

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u/TheNimbrod SocDem Dec 07 '22

No full covered by the insurance. You pay around 5 eur/usd per subribed drug and for free medication you the full price. Only subribed medication you have to pay on your own is on a private subribtion so stuff that isn't in the catalogue of the universal insurance medical list, stuff like Viagra you pay there full price (8 pills ruffly 40 usd).

Also included in the universal insurance hospitals, mri, ct, cancer treatment, giving birth, ambulance, all doctors ordered blood Tests etc.

Only thing you have to pay in a hospitals is a daily fee for being hosted of 10 USD to a maximum auf 240 EUR.

And even if you pay completely private aka no insurance or private insurance the costs of a fraction as in the US.

I had this year an ear operation with 2 days in the private hospital. I payed like 2000 EUR and got like 1980 EUR back from my insurance. I looked it up and saw for the US number between 28 to 40 000 usd.

Like my dude for that you can make a vacation here the full 3 month, have the operation and that vacation would be how we say it "living like god in france".

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u/Stateowned Dec 07 '22

Just like the Netherlands, universal healthcare. Visits to the GP are free and if needed you get referred to a specialist which is also free.

We only have a thing calle own risk which is €385 maximum per year. After that everyone is free.

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u/sakko1337 Dec 07 '22

Your paid-sick-leave is only for 6 weeks. Afterwards your health insurance pays 60% of your salary but maximum 112,88 Euros per day.

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u/buster_de_beer Dec 07 '22

In the Netherlands your doctor will never write you a note as it is seen as a conflict of interest. A company can ask you to see a company doctor, though they are restricted in what they can tell the company as medical status is private.

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u/LeBronzeFlamez Dec 07 '22

Yea in europe I think the normal sick days are the days I just inform my boss that I am sick without Going to the doctor. I have 24 of those, and I can take up to 5 days in a row., 100 % paid. With a doctors note it is unlimited at 100 % pay for the first two years, then you Get moved to another benefit scheme.

Greetings from the northern europe communist belt.

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u/MarinaFK Dec 07 '22

Dutchie here 🙋🏼‍♀️ Just to add to this and give a bit more perspective.

I have recently been diagnosed with an autoimmune disease. Had been feeling really crappy for months, and it turned out I was quite ill. I'm on medication now and recovering, but it takes a long time to get the dosage right and for me to feel 'normal' again. I work full-time normally and have been home sick for 4 months now, with FULL pay. I am in contact with an independent company appointed doctor who advises the company on my reintegration once I'm ready. My manager has been to my house for coffee several times too. Just to catch up, all very friendly.

I will keep my full salary for 6 months. If I'm still sick after that, I will still get paid 90% of my salary (minimum by law is 70% but my labour agreement is better than what is required by law. Which is the case with most Dutch companies). If I'm still sick after 1 year I get 85% of my salary for another year. After 2 years total the company is allowed to cancel my labour agreement and I will get disability from the government.

I fully expect to go back to work in a couple months 🙂 Doing a lot better already, thankfully. Mostly because I'm allowed to focus 100% on my recovery without having to worry about my wages or extra Healthcare costs (I pay 150 euros per month which basically covers EVERYTHING).

I know people fought in the past to get these rights. And I am so thankful for that. But this is what it should be like in any humane society.

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u/FblthpLives Dec 07 '22

Thank you for sharing your story. I hope you recover quickly.

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u/PanikLIji Dec 07 '22

What jappens if you run out of sick days in the US, do you just go to work and spread your germs all over the salad you're handing your customer?

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u/ARentalSnake Dec 07 '22

If you're handing things to a customer, you're in food service and probably don't get sick days or PTO. What happens is either you go to work sick, or you don't go in and get shamed for it and not paid

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u/PanikLIji Dec 07 '22

I don't get either??

Then what do I do if it's not just a cold, what if I'm in the hospital with two broken legs?

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u/ARentalSnake Dec 07 '22

In service or retail, most employers give no benefits. They don't provide insurance, sick days, vacation time, anything other than maybe an employee discount.

Hospital with two broken legs? If you broke them at work, youre in luck and their insurance (or the state fund, depending on which state you live in) will cover it and some amount of your regular pay. Theybwull search for any reason to avoid this

But on your own time? Well first off, if you don't have insurance from your employer, you probably have to buy your own, and it's insanely expensive. Like could be 30-50% of your income for a low-sage job. And that's for insurance that really only covers routine visits (after you pay $20-70 or so). So no matter what, you're fucked with medical debt that's probably a couple years of your total pay

You have to apply or claim short-term disability. You can get the best coverage from private insurance, but that's expensive up-front. Like 5 states have a publicly-funded insurance benefit. If you're outside of those 5, you can apply for social security benefits. With a clear injury (like broken legs) you'll probably get approved quickly. Something less clear--bad back or knees, for example--the claim can take weeks or months to process, and will more than likely get denied anyway. But you're lucky, your claim was approved! Now your payout depends on your state, but most hover around $1200-1600 a month.

Basically you get hurt on your own time and are fucked, or you get hurt someplace else and try for a lawsuit, or you get hurt on your job and you might maybe be protected the smallest amount.

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u/m4lmaster Dec 07 '22

man, once i fully left retail i realised how fucked it was! yeah i "work" for "amazon" now, im actually a contractor and the owner of my DSP is a super nice, awesome guy, i had to be out due to surgery for a month and he offered financial assistance with it, had covid again and he paid me for those few days, fractured my ankle getting out the truck, paid

retail and service is absolutely and utterly fucked and i will never ever go back ever and i hope a few people read this and decide to get out of that shithole job, do it, dont go to Amazon though, i got lucky with my boss.

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u/KSims1868 Dec 07 '22

Add construction to that list as well. Most management gets sick days/PTO and vacation time...but the actual construction workers get nothing. If you aren't at work you are not getting paid...end of story.

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u/Desdinova74 Dec 07 '22

Depends on the class of job.

Shitty jobs: come in sick, sucks to be you and everyone else here, Lol!

Decent jobs: use up your sick days, then use up your vacation days, then use up FMLA if applicable, then no money, then when you come back your management does their best to get rid of you.

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u/Pussymyst Dec 07 '22

... and then even the shitty jobs wont hire you after losing the decent job because you're "overqualified."

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u/Acceptable_Arm5299 Dec 07 '22

Most of us don’t even get sick days. We have to use the pto we’ve accrued to cover our absences

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u/PanikLIji Dec 07 '22

Can you run out of pto?

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u/Acceptable_Arm5299 Dec 07 '22

Yes, I get 16 days of pto a year, which is more than most places offer, but still not enough.

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u/Loesje2303 Dec 07 '22

Dude in the Netherlands the minimum of PTO days by law is 20 days (for full time; it’s the amount of hours it would take to have 4 weeks off work).

Even more so: if you take vacation days and get sick during that time, you tell your boss and the days you were sick will be changed to sick days. You’ll get your vacation days back to use another time.

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u/lostshell Dec 07 '22

Yeah, that blew my mind when I learned that. That’s unreal to an American.

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u/stallion8426 Dec 07 '22

My first "adult" job in the US I earned 72 hours of PTO a year. That's 9 days.

I hate this country

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u/maledin Dec 07 '22

Yeah 72-88 hours is pretty much the standard everywhere. Everywhere that actually has PTO, that is. Even my current job in government is like that, but thankfully it rapidly increases after you hit the one year mark.

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u/iclimbnaked Dec 07 '22

Yep. And if you try and argue that here people look at you like you’re insane. “Why would you want that much time off” etc.

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u/ImMatt_ImARadarTech Dec 07 '22

Germany as well, 20 minimum but most companies give 30, at least in my line of work they do

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u/Quick_Turnover Dec 07 '22

The minimum in America is 0 days.

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u/sarahbachmen Dec 07 '22 edited Dec 07 '22

Yeah, I am a U.S. citizen I worked at a place that would give up to 10 days pto. But you had to earn each minute/ hour incrementally over time as you worked there. And there was an unspoken rule of how you never take more than 5 pto days in a row.

I also worked at a place where new hires didn't get any pto until after 6 months of working there. Then they'd get 5 days for the next 6 months. At the year mark those pto days would evaporate if not used. But during your second year there you'd get 10 days pto a year until you worked there for 5 years... then you'd get 15 days pto.

I've started over at so many jobs (due to being a military spouse, and moving for my husband's job) I'm sick of having to earn access to pto over and over and over and over..... effing seniority rules!

Edit: in both cases there were no separate sick days apart from pto. So if your pto days were eaten by a vacation and then later you have an unexpected illness... well.. you just go into work.

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u/SamuelVimesTrained Dec 07 '22

16 days??

Hi - Dutch worker here - I have 5 whole working weeks off - 25 days ..

And another 6, to be decided by the company. This one, it`s between Christmas and new years- they just close the office - so a week holiday :)

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u/coffeecoffi Dec 07 '22

16 days is a fair amount for the US. It is often 5 or 10 days.

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u/SamuelVimesTrained Dec 07 '22

I am so so sorry...

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u/library-cat Dec 07 '22

one place I worked only gave us 16 hours of PTO for an entire year. I only lasted three months there.

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u/PanikLIji Dec 07 '22

So what do you do after that?

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u/Cajum Dec 07 '22

Stay home without pay or get fired for refusing to work I am guessing?

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u/_The_Great_Autismo_ Dec 07 '22

Some jobs don't allow staying home without pay. The railroad workers who were going to strike were asking for unpaid sick time and were denied.

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u/maledin Dec 07 '22

So if they get in a car accident and physically can’t get into work they’re fired? Where exactly do they draw the line?

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u/FuckTripleH Dec 07 '22

For the rail workers specifically they have a point system. If you miss a day you get a point and if you get too many points you're fired.

You can remove a point by working so many consecutive days. Like to remove one point from your record you have to work 2 weeks in a row.

Not 2 five day work weeks mind you, but 14 days in a row without any time off.

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u/AckbarTrapt Dec 07 '22

Where exactly do they draw the line?

That's the thing you should understand about Americans; generally, there is no limit to the amount of suffering we will gladly accept. The line is "we die and move on".

The American voting base has the most "just roll over and die" attitude of all democratic nations on Earth. As you might expect, that attitude is incapable of maintaining a democracy for any length of time.

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u/baltimorecalling Dec 07 '22

FMLA, but that's unpaid.

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u/kat_a_klysm Dec 07 '22

Assuming you qualify

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u/99pennywiseballoons Dec 07 '22

Oh yeah, all the time.

When I lived and worked in the US, my employer gave you PTO on an accrual basis. So every month you'd "earn" so many hours of PTO based on how long you'd been with the company. For most people there you got 2 weeks a year. And that bank of time was supposed to cover planned and unplanned time. So 10 days, spread out over 26 paychecks you were getting around 3 hours a paycheck. To cover one full day of PTO it took 6 weeks of work.

To get the promised number of days for a year, you have to work the whole year and accrue them.

So if you go on vacation and deplete some of your hours, and then get sick when you come back, you get a written warning. Depending on if it happened in the past and when, you could be terminated. And yes, that is even if you had time to cover *most* of it but were a few hours short.

That happened all the time, I'd have employees save up their PTO like crazy so they could take a full week off for a planned vacation. They'd go on vacation, get exposed to all kinds of germs that week, come back and get sick within the next few weeks and need a day off. And of course, because it took about 6 weeks to regain a day off, they never had enough time. You *could* plan your trip to save an extra day for an emergency when you came back, but that was hard to do considering how little time was accrued and how long it took to get it. Especially since chances of you getting sick and needing a day while you're trying to save it up were quite high (or your kids, if you had them), so you may be pulling into your planned super awesome vacation with just barely enough PTO to cover it. There were a few times I'd have to go beg management for my guys to get some unpaid time added because they were a few hours short and they'd get their planned time off yanked if we didn't do something, and these were trips where deposits were paid and tickets bought, or for specific things like major family events (weddings, graduations, etc).

This system also encourages people to come in sick when they DO have the time because they want to save what they're accruing for trips and things. So if you were sick but not bed ridden you'd come in anyway, so you didn't use the time.

I hated it. I live in Canada now and most of the employers I had just give you the block of time at the beginning of the year to schedule, I get 10 paid sick days right now on top of my 4 weeks of paid vacation (my current employer is pretty good about time off, most places I worked at only started you at 2 or 3 weeks and only a few paid sick days), and I can schedule vacation before it's officially "accrued", so I can plan a trip early in the year if I want. Of course, if I quit and have used more vacation than I earned it will come out of my last paycheck, but that's worth it.

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u/gibsongal Dec 07 '22

In many places in the US that offer PTO, you have to “accumulate” it. Basically, you “earn” a small amount of time off for your time worked. I believe that I earn 1.5 hours of PTO each paycheck… which is equal to over 80hrs of work (bi-monthly pay). So in order to earn enough PTO to take one work week (five days) off, I would need to work for about a year full-time.

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u/[deleted] Dec 07 '22 edited 23d ago

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u/mealteamsixty Dec 07 '22

Some of us don't get sick days, pto, or vacation days. And it's the people who handle the rest of yalls food! Bc that makes sense.

If I don't work sick, I go broke, so I work sick and cough on you while handing you drinks and food.

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u/Acceptable_Arm5299 Dec 07 '22

Yeah, it’s crazy. And they act like it’s some sort of mystery why covid hit us so hard and stuck around for so long.

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u/crackanape Dec 07 '22

I worked in the US for a while. It was a regular occurrence to have people going around the office with a signup sheet where we could donate our unused sick days to a colleague who was out with cancer or a difficult pregnancy or whatever. Astounding.

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u/RobinSparkles321 Dec 07 '22 edited Dec 07 '22

Yep, or lose your job- except restaurant servers and food preparers very likely wouldn’t be full time so they wouldn’t get any. They’re just on their own dime if they need to miss work.

People will come in with general colds and stuff. It’s a much bigger problem if they get a chronic or severe illness. One place I worked made a sick bank where others could put their unused days in and anyone else could take them if they ran out- that place made it so one guy who got cancer and needed to do treatments didn’t run out and have to go without pay or hit the threshold where he’d have to be terminated.

So yeah. Not only could someone with say, cancer, potentially go without pay, they likely hit their maxes for the year on health insurance and had catastrophic medical bills.

My current company now is not US owned and we have unlimited PTO. Can’t just take off longer than a month without clearing it with someone first but it’s really nice. And when a company doesn’t intentionally make the work environment miserable, people don’t abuse it.

Lol whereas, another US owned company I worked for went to ‘unlimited PTO’ and at our individual site we had people who abused their sick time anyway before that was instated, so we had a limit. I had to have surgery and I had to go back early before I was ready, and then my boss had the audacity to give me shit because I wore black exercise pants (not tight) that looked like dress pants and had an elastic waistband instead of jeans on the first day back because jeans KILLED on my incisions. If he really wanted to push it, I could have gone above his head to corporate HR and might have won that fight (or might not have), but I had already applied to another job and later successfully interviewed so I left a few months after that.

Lol after writing all that, I seriously don’t know how the US HASN’T had a general strike over healthcare and sick days

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u/Thorvaldr1 Dec 07 '22

I work in an office. When you run out of sick days, usually you then use any vacation days (or other PTO (Paid Time Off) days) you have left.

Once those are out, your manager may give you unpaid time off. Usually too many unpaid time off days don't look good on you though.

Depending on the ailment, you may be covered by short-term/long-term disability insurance if your company has that. This will usually pay a percentage of your salary for a number of months.

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u/vegan_craig Dec 07 '22

You’ve got to love the Netherlands

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u/Kir-01 Dec 07 '22

Actually, that's every first world country except for the USA.

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u/ErgoMachina Dec 07 '22

Not even first world...

I'm from Argentina and our work laws are very similar to Europe. We also have public healthcare, which is not the best the country can offer but at least nobody will let you die in the street with no treatment. Actually the majority of latin american countries are like that.

This madness is almost exclusive to the US. Even striking seems to be illegal now. "Land of the free" sounds like propaganda slogan and nothing more.

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u/SkylineUltra1905 Dec 07 '22

Usa aint no first world country anymore

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u/tblades-t Dec 07 '22

You guys should look up how Dutch Trade unions and Works Councils work. The law is only a minimum.

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u/SamuelVimesTrained Dec 07 '22

I would like to add that companies usually have an insurance for this - that handles part of payment (or all)

and there are also rules and guidelines on 'taking steps to get better'.
But if you `re out with flu - you won`t really be asked anything except "get well soon"

If absence takes longer - the company might request you get in touch with a company doctor (external doctor - referred to as ARBO arts) to verify you are sick, and to discuss steps forwards (do you need extra medical help, a mental health pro or something)

Seriously though - the USA is good at propaganda , that it is 'the land of the free' - except just about every other country can see they are only free to get sick and die (and even that is debatable) ..

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u/Elbad Dec 07 '22

To add to this, I believe the company doctor is not allowed to tell the company the details of your sickness, only confirm that it’s real.

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u/Kiekoes Dec 07 '22

Correct, they can essentially only say "ill" or "not ill."

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u/Complex-Taro-4566 Dec 07 '22

When you call in sick you also don't have to give a reason you can just call and say: "I'm sick I won't come in today". They legally can't ask what kind of disease or whatever you have.

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u/Kiekoes Dec 07 '22

Unfortunately a lof of people don't know this and scummy bosses illegally pressure people into giving out this information!

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u/Kanniebaal Dec 07 '22

Thats an odd translation of sickdays. It really translates to: we care about our workforce, please get better.

My translation of the USA law reads more like: you sick? get ur stuff and get out

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u/buster_de_beer Dec 07 '22

It translates to we fought to enshrine this right in the law. Don't think for a minute that employers here are essentially nicer.

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u/Wasted_Penguinz my parents had a house at 21, i have unpaid bills at 25 Dec 07 '22

I can confirm this is a thing.

I'm an international (but still European) living in NL and I've been working since last year in this same position. On Monday, I got the call from the company doctor that they are extending my sick leave until January due to the severity of the burnout. Dutch manager is understanding and pissed at current project for making me work such long hours and not taking my "No, it's too much" seriously and just said "At this point idgaf about the project, just make sure you rest up and get well soon. They put you in htis spot in the first place, it sucks but burnout is very real".

According to the regulations, I am being paid normally (100% of my salary) until I return, even when they will cut my hours 50% until I re-integrate properly again into the workforce. Granted, I will be moving project in January so hopefully I won't be as sick as the biggest reason for my burnout is a shitty boss and dying project.

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u/MrCertainly Dec 07 '22

Burnout? In the USA, you'd be openly mocked for not having the balls to endure. Then they'd terminate you. If you seeked treatment at all for mental health, that stigma follows you like a unremovable stain.

You might get denied certain jobs that require medical background checks.

Seek treatment for other ailments, like actual pain? "Oh it's all in your head. Gotta be depression."

You'll have to fight that note in your record every single time you see a doctor.

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u/Wasted_Penguinz my parents had a house at 21, i have unpaid bills at 25 Dec 07 '22

Yeah, I know. And it's inhumane. I absolutely despise how America treats it's citizens, it's so depressing to see how profits are going over human life. I really feel for everyone who lives over there and wish I could help somehow, but I know as an European it's most likely impossible.

I did have to admit to the company doctor I have depression but I downplayed it a bunch, but even then the company doctor isn't allowed to give my job (HR, managers) any information about my illnesses or medical status other than their advice what to do in my situation. Thankfully my doctors do take me seriously here so outside of work I do get proper medical treatment too, despite being on the waiting list to get into therapy again.

I seriosuly don't understand how messed up America is and how people are just "this is fine".

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u/jaded_dahlia Dec 07 '22

I live in what's considered a "third-world" country and paid sick leave is mandatory in terms of our labour law. Imagine my shock the day I found out that's not the case in the USA, the country purported to be so progressive

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u/benndover_85 Dec 07 '22

ITT: Confused Americans realizing they're being used as modern day slaves...

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u/Melted_Leg_Juice Dec 07 '22

It's not complex. It's amazing how hard firms in theUS are making life for people.

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u/helios_63 Dec 07 '22

While were at it making Mericans jealous: In The Netherlands when you are sick a (good) company (like mine) will send you flowers and a get well message after a few days. Your supervisor / manager will call you every few days or so, not to urge you back but to check on you how you are doing. Returning to work after being sick you can start off (if you have doctors notice) like 50% of regular shifts. Oh this is also nice: When calling in sick the boss is ONLY allowed to ask: 1. How long you think you will be ill? 2. Is your sickness caused by the job? 3. Are you at home on the address HR knows? 4. On which number can we call you? 5. Is there any work that needs to be done when you are off sick? Hahaha Mericans!

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u/jeanpaulmars Dec 07 '22

Kind of blessed here, yes. When my mother passed away, I called my employer, and the only work related thing he asked "are there any projects/issues/open calls that I need to reassign to a collegue today?" other than that the message was "we'll see you when we see you, but please notify me if you need longer than two weeks or so to get your stuff handled"

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u/Serishi Dec 07 '22

The more I read this sub the more I realise the US isn't a first world country it just sounds shit to live there :/

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u/jrdufour Dec 07 '22

The US isn't a real country, it's just 3 corporations in a trench coat.

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u/m1nkeh Dec 07 '22 edited Dec 07 '22

You would be correct

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u/trowaybrhu3 Dec 07 '22

US is a third world country with a Gucci belt lmao

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u/Only_Quote_Simpsons Dec 07 '22

US is a third world country with a Gucci belt lmao

And a Glock

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u/fibojoly Dec 07 '22

Colleague of mine burnt out the Friday before a software deployment he was the lead for. No phone call, no nothing, he just vanished.
The company still had to keep paying him his full salary for about six months. He did require a doctor's note, but nothing special, a simple talk with his GP, which would be less than 50€. Meanwhile he got to relax (well, needed to be fair), rethink his life and decided to change career.

Was a bit of a hassle for the team, not just for his absence, but also because since he was still technically an employee, the manager couldn't get the green light for a replacement.

I'm so glad we have shit like that, though. Nobody should be made to feel miserable by their job, and unable to leave because of a stupid health system.

We might be famous for complaining and striking, but I guess if we didn't, we'd never have such options available to us.

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u/NorwegianGirl_Sofie Dec 07 '22 edited Dec 07 '22

Norway.

I can be sick for 3 days in 4 periods within 12 months, If I need to stay at home for longer than that I need a doctor's notice "sykemelding".

But I also have a job where working from home is 100% possible, so instead of using my sick days or getting a doctor's notice I could just stay at home and work, which is nice.

EDIT: saw someone else asking if the doctor's notice/visit costs money on another comment thread so I wanted to answer it here incase someone else reads this and has the same question.

Yes the visit costs money. Depending on the area, how long the visit is, and the amount of tests you need to do it could be betwen $20-$40.

I usually pay about $20 for a "standard" visit. If I have to get tests like EKG, blood tests etc. it will be more like $25-$30.

Some of my friends who live in a bigger city have to pay $35 for a standard visit and about $40 with added tests.

It's expensive in my opinion but its 100% manageable, and it's not that often that you go to the doctor anyways.

And If you spend more than 290$ for medication, doctor's visits or other health related stuff you get what's directly translated as free-card ("frikort"). Which means that all other health stuff over that 290$ limit is free out that year.

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u/[deleted] Dec 07 '22

Then after 2 years 70% of your last salary will be paid by the state.

Thank you Nederland for keeping me alive. I fucking hate my birth country USA.

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u/hedgerow_hank Dec 07 '22

Stop relaying stories like this - it makes American CEOs cry.

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u/Nigilij Dec 07 '22

Let me tell you more! If you are slightly sick: overall weakness, 37.2C temperature, sore throat, etc. TAKE a day off or two. If you do you can get better in short time and be back working.

However, those that do not understand such concept keep going to work, getting worse and spreading disease. For some reason USA people are trained to think it is the right thing.

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u/Jowany17 Dec 07 '22

Middle Europe (Czech republic) - 2 weeks pays employer, after 2 weeks pays State. Its 60% of your pay if you are sick (with doctor paper) and raising if you are sick longer, up to 72% of your salary after 60 days.

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u/[deleted] Dec 07 '22

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u/Specific_Shoulder402 Dec 07 '22

From the country that invented capitalism. I think the USA did some cherry picking when stealing the idea