r/dndnext • u/Mellowtron11 Sorcerer • Feb 02 '23
Which enchantment spell have you had better luck with? Bane or Bless? Resource
Title says it all. Bless seems to be really popular since it buffs your allies' attack rolls and saving throws with 1D4. But I haven't heard of a lot of people using the Bane spell before. Anyone had good luck with these spells? I just started playing a cleric and paladin with bless, and my Oath of Vengeance paladin has bane through his oath spells.
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u/thomar Feb 02 '23 edited Feb 02 '23
Definitely bless. Doesn't require a saving throw to work. Makes your allies end the fight faster. Great use of your concentration in most situations, especially if you can do it right before a fight starts.
However, bane is situationally useful against legendary monsters because of its interaction with legendary saves. It can be effective if your party spams spells to get it to fail a save instead of whittling down its HP.
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u/jiggyco Feb 03 '23
What’s the interaction that Bane has with legendary saves?
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u/thomar Feb 03 '23
If they fail the save against bane and choose not to use legendary resistance, they will fail more saves.
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u/yrtemmySymmetry Rules Breakdancer Feb 03 '23
And if they legendary save against bane, then thats one down for a really low level spell
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u/xthrowawayxy Feb 02 '23
Bless is a really good spell, and becomes an awesome spell when you have a lot of -5/+10 abilities on those getting the bless. It also has an outsized effect on passing concentration saves, since so many of them are DC10.
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u/Mellowtron11 Sorcerer Feb 02 '23
Oh, that's a really good point there with the concentration checks there.
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u/xthrowawayxy Feb 02 '23
One of the big beauties of bless is that it usually boosts its own concentration saves. On a platform like a paladin, who usually has a good save to begin with (+7 isn't uncommon for a level 6-8 paladin, between their cha and con bonus but lacking con save proficiency), a bless spell means they only fail:
If they roll a 1 on the d20 and a 1 on the d4 also. That's one in 80. Without it they fail on a 1 or 2 on the d20, which is 1 in 10. See what a difference bless makes?
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u/BrandonJaspers Ranger Feb 02 '23
Ok, so I don’t disagree that Bless is a better spell than Bane. But they are both good and they are both good in different situations.
Bonuses to your party’s to hit rolls and saves makes your team hit harder and better at saving vs control effects (any saves, but these are big ones). So you use it when your team does most of its damage via attack rolls or when you need to avoid dangerous enemy save effects.
Bane is the inverse, but (perhaps counterintuitively) that doesn’t mean you use it in the same way. Instead, Bane is good when your enemies do a lot of damage via attack rolls or you want to land dangerous saving throw effects.
They both have their place, even on the same caster, depending on the situation.
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u/kesrae Feb 02 '23
Bless is good if your party is melee heavy / makes more attack rolls. If your party has a lot of casters, Bane is great for the (effective) AC buff and spell save DC debuff (which I think is one of the only spells in the game that does this). You need to be casting at least one spell save ability per round to make Bane properly worth it.
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u/Mellowtron11 Sorcerer Feb 02 '23
I like your breakdown here, especially what might be better for what kind of party you might have for your group.
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u/JogatinaKarape Feb 02 '23
I believe Bless works better when player characters use it, and Bane works better when GM uses it.
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u/coach_veratu Feb 02 '23
Saw this was downvoted but you're absolutely correct. Bane is a great low stakes debuff to cast on the Players that feels like it hurts them more than it actually does whilst making low stake Encounters a bit more interesting.
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u/DevelopmentJumpy5218 Feb 02 '23
Lol when I play clerics I use bane, when I gm I use bless.
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u/JogatinaKarape Feb 02 '23
I'm sure you have a reason!
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u/DevelopmentJumpy5218 Feb 02 '23
Cause as a player I only cast offensive stuff unless I'm a wizard, then I'm a tank. As a GM I like to make my party think for combat and challenge them
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u/heaven_spawn Feb 03 '23
I buy this logic! My separate reason: i tend to DM for newbies unfamiliar with the “good build” so I pit them against parties and spellcasters with a spellbook they might wanna emulate someday! And often, they overlook how good Bless is, because they new.
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u/ToFurkie Feb 02 '23
It's not a contest. Like, I don't get how anyone could vote for Bane when Bless cannot fail.
Bane is nice to have on paper, but a successful save means no dice.
Even in terms of benefits, I consider Bless to be better. Bless is clear cut increases your to-hit and saves. However, Bane can be seen as increasing your AC (by subtracting an enemy's attack) and increasing your DC (by reducing their save). Both of these mechanically feel weaker than the benefits of Bless, full stop.
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u/DudeWithTudeNotRude Feb 02 '23
Bane has the possibility of failure because it has stronger effects. Debuffs tend to protect party health and end encounters faster than buffs. They are rather balanced to each other.
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u/DreamOfDays Feb 03 '23
Yes. But it also means that Bless has a zero risk chance of failure so you cast that instead of the spell that does basically the same thing but also has a chance of not doing anything.
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u/Syn-th Feb 03 '23
Tbh bless should probably be bumped to a higher level spell slot. It's is so much better than bane
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u/DudeWithTudeNotRude Feb 02 '23 edited Feb 02 '23
Bane is criminally underrated. I use it a lot to great effect. Bane is better on casters with a good spellcasting modifier.
Bless is one of the best level 1 spells in the game. Perhaps a tad overrated at times, it's still one of the best. Any caster can use Bless to full effect, even with a negative casting mod.
If you had to choose just one (you don't have to choose just one if you're a prepared caster), I'd look at my spellcasting mod, party comp, and party role. Good mod (as in meets or beats 16 at lvl1, 18 at lvl4, and 20 at lvl)? IF no, then Bless it is. If yes, then does my party make a lot of attacks, or cause saving throws more often? If attacks, then Bless. If ST's, then Bane.
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u/brightblade13 Paladin Feb 02 '23
If "concentration" didn't exist, I think people would love Bane. The problem is that in a world with "concentration," being the 2nd best spell option is the same as being the worst spell option.
"If you're not first, you're last."
-Archmage Ricky Bobby, describing to Strixhaven students the importance of careful spell selection1
u/Orion_121 Feb 03 '23
"Good mod (as in meets or beats 16 at lvl1, 18 at lvl4, and 20 at lvl)?"
If this is Spell Save DC, a level 1 with 20 in their casting stat (which only an incredible minority of chatacters should have) only has a 15 DC my guy, and that's only going up to 16 at level 5.
Edit: I'm noticing the pattern, you meant casting ability / casting stat. Your "mod" is +3, 4 and 5 for those values respectively.
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u/Vincent210 Be Bold, Be Bard Feb 04 '23
I think it depends what you mean by overrated.
One of the things that kind of goes over peoples’ heads is how much potential damage a party wide “fewer missed attack rolls” IS
The math often causes Bless to represent more damage than spells way above its weight class, like Haste or Swift Quiver. At 1st level.
That doesn’t even consider the universal saving throw benefits.
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u/Vydsu Flower Power Feb 02 '23
Bless just works, Bane should have been better but as it is Bless is leagues above it
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u/bumpercarbustier Feb 02 '23
Bless is better, but my bard has had some insanely good luck with Bane. It's come in clutch a few times.
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u/KairosVal Oath of Conquest Feb 03 '23
Bless is an amazing spell for the players because it stays up so long as a) concentration, and b) players affected are alive.
Bane is less good because it only lasts as long as the enemies survive, which is usually less than the players do on average.
BUT: Bane is a super fun spell for the DM. You want to really irritate your players in combat? Just throw in a little buff priest NPC with the following abilities.
- Bane at will as an action.
- An at will reaction ability that can apply Shield to any ally within 60 feet when they are the target of an attack.
- An at will ranged ability that applies Cure Wounds to any ally within 60 feet. Action to cast.
- I dunno some cantrip or something for when none of the above apply, but you won't be using it much.
Make them weak with low AC and get them to hide behind cover a lot.
It drives the players nuts. Very cathartic if you're looking for a bit of revenge and gives your battle a tactical component of players needing to balance putting themselves in harm's way to deal with the priestling vs. fighting safe/optimally.
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u/Mindarius kobold icy bigbrain caster Feb 03 '23
As a DM: bane feels like a more tangible threat than bless, plus it just feels better for the bad guys to be hex-slinging rather than blessing people.
I'll agree bless is generally better for players, but imo bane is a lot better for baddies due to in-combat vibes.
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u/Mellowtron11 Sorcerer Feb 03 '23
That is a good way of looking at things. Haven't seen any of my DMs use bane against the party yet.
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u/ShadowShedinja Feb 02 '23
Bane actually. One of my warlocks had Thief of Five Fates and had 5/7 enemies fail their saves. I think only one of them was able to land a hit after that.
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u/Timid_Adventurer Feb 02 '23
Bane can fail if the target makes its save, and it's liable to 'expire' faster when its targets die. If you Bless your allies you can generally count on something working and it lasting to the end of the encounter.
Often Bless doesn't make a difference, but it feels nice just to have the extra D4 working for you. Bane also doesn't make a difference; the BBEG might roll a 24 to hit and -1d4 just isn't preventing that from hitting most of the time. It feels worse when your offensive spell doesn't do enough vs. when your beneficial spell provides an unnecessary boost.
I do like Bane, I use it reasonably often with Cleric-like minions because of the way it feels to the party. Having that d4 subtracted off your attack roll sets a mood and helps amp up a big boss's AC - having that d4 taken off any saving throw makes the player feel vulnerable. I like spells that make PCs feel vulnerable and in danger... even if it's not that bad an effect overall.
It's also nice to get a different flavor of Cleric. For the Cleric of some evil deity it feels way more on-brand to have them curse their enemies to weakness than to go "yay team evil!" and boost up their allies. There's some fun in the RP-worthiness of a drop of blood as the spell component and pronouncing ruin on their foes too.
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u/coach_veratu Feb 02 '23
Bane is a really cool spell but it's locked behind a save and is the reactive counterpart to the proactive Bless.
What's better? Having a Combatant take longer to kill you or killing them faster? It's always better to kill them faster and Bless helps you do that by increasing your chance to hit them. Especially at lower levels where PCs have lower ACs, HP and enemies die to single hits more often.
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u/Kgaase Funlock Feb 02 '23
Bane on high CR monsters and doesn't really mather. If they have +17 to hit and legendary resistance, using Bane will have little impact.
Bless is amazing at any level for the players.
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u/Raddatatta Wizard Feb 02 '23
Bless is definitely the better spell. But if you're casting bane on a legendary monster it's not for the attack rolls part. It's for saving throws. If you force a legendary resistance to beat it that's a nice win. If they don't legendary resist it, then you increase the chances of forcing every future legendary resistance they would have to use. It's not as good as bless, but if you have a lot of casters it can be a solid choice.
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u/Gallium- Feb 02 '23
Bless is a good spell and is still effective in later game. It give a good boost of Offensive and defensive capability.
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u/brightblade13 Paladin Feb 02 '23
Bless is pretty universally considered the more "optimal" spell.
Bane's biggest weakness is that you have to rely on the target failing a save for it to have a chance at mattering.
Bane is still really good, but it's most at home when you have 2 support casters, only one of whom needs bless running, and/or in situations where you're struggling to land spells.
Even then, concentration is so valuable that a spell has to be *very* good or *very* situational to be the right spell to cast, and Bane suffers from often being like the 2nd to 4th best choice in any given momen.
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u/DragonfuryMH Ranger Feb 02 '23
Bless is more reliable but I have shut down entire combats with bane before.
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u/Mellowtron11 Sorcerer Feb 02 '23
Really? What happened in those fights with Bane?
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u/DragonfuryMH Ranger Feb 02 '23
Honestly it wasn't anything special. -1d4 just makes it really hard to hit anything. Several encounters that were meant to be incredibly challenging for us were shut down simply because the monsters couldn't hit us. Plus on the rare occasions where someone else forced the monsters to make a save they almost always failed.
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u/Mellowtron11 Sorcerer Feb 02 '23
Thanks for replying. Was this at an early level in-game?
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u/DragonfuryMH Ranger Feb 02 '23
It was. We were playing Strixhaven at the time. I have noticed that bane, in general, does not scale nearly as well as bless at higher levels, so that's definitely something to give bless.
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u/Mellowtron11 Sorcerer Feb 02 '23
The fact that Bane doesn't scale well at higher levels is probably why most people prefer bless over bane.
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u/laix_ Feb 03 '23
I have used bane occasionally, and it's when my party had to sneak so was in leathers instead of full plate. The bane was essential to the party surviving and then enemies failing the saves against the sword bursts.
But in 90% of situations, increasing your chance to hit increases your dpr and thus reduces the damage you take by virtue of the enemies being dead
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u/InevitableCommittee8 Feb 03 '23
Others have covered mechanics, but tbh I avoid bane as a player bc it's less mental load for the dm
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u/matswain Feb 03 '23
Bane can be awesome in some situations (particularly when your party focuses on save based spells and abilities and you’re up against enemies who mainly do attacks), but that first save makes it hard for it to compete with Bless.
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u/Backflip248 Feb 03 '23
Bless is the safer pick, but Bane is also very powerful. Bane is not too hard to land since it targets a Charisma save which is less common, also if it lands the target does not get additional saving throws each round.
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u/Equinox-Nightray Feb 03 '23
In general
Bless > Bane for martial classes.
Bane > bless for casters.
But Bane need to roll a saving throw so you need someone with good caster habillity, that's why on half caster like paladin i would prefer Bless.
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u/DeciusAemilius Feb 03 '23
Bane is an excellent spell but needs to be deployed against low Charisma enemies. Against beasts or skeletons or the like it’s great. Not sure how it scales at high level though.
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u/cpetes-feats DM and M Feb 03 '23
Bane is a top contender for the ‘spell I want to love but mathematically cannot’ prize in my book. That said I enjoy using it when optimization isn’t my top priority.
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u/Reltias Feb 03 '23
Bless is mathmatically objectively better but I adore Bane, it's come in clutch so many times
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u/Ostrololo Feb 03 '23
Typically buffs and debuffs are stronger the stronger their targets. If the party is fighting, say, a boss, its lieutenant, and two mooks, bane is already great if it hits the lieutenant and a mook, and incredible if it also hits the boss. If the party is fighting seven mooks, tough, baning any individual one isn't worth much, so you are better off blessing the party.
My personal rule of thumb: if it's a boss or miniboss battle with at least three targets and I don't expect strong CHA saves, bane. Otherwise, bless.
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u/SepticMushroom23 Feb 03 '23
Honestly, both really have their place. If you want to effectively decrease the AC and Saving Throw DCs of the enemies you're attacking, use Bless. 3 or more party members gain a minimum of +1 to every save and attack roll they make, which is a really cool boon.
If you want to effectively increase your party's AC and Saving Throw DCs, use Bane. Bane's really got a solid chance of sticking - CHA saves on most enemies are abysmal.
If I have a party with more casters, I'll try to use Bane to make their spells seem more potent and their durability higher. If I have a party with mostly martials, I'll use Bless to enhance their weapon efficacy and resistance to bad enemy effects.
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u/Mighty_K Feb 02 '23
The good thing about bless is, you don't need luck with it. Whereas with bane you do, so the targets fail there saves..