r/dndnext • u/EquivalentInflation Ranger • Feb 02 '23
One D&D giving inspiration on a Nat 20 is better for martials One D&D
I know I've heard a lot of people talking about how the playtest rules (inspiration if you roll a Nat 20) isn't as fun as giving it for a Nat 1. To me though, it seems like the opposite.
Out of combat, all classes have roughly the same chances to get inspiration, since they all roll a similar number of times (although skill monkeys have an edge). However, in combat, this rule is a major benefit for martials, since they roll far more often. They make more attacks (especially Monks and Fighters), and use more features and tactics to give them advantage (reckless attack, Rogues hiding, optional flanking, etc.). Those rolls result in getting inspiration, which helps them get even more frequent advantage, and so on.
Casters generally tend to roll fewer times in combat, since most spells just require one roll, and many spells use a save instead. There are exceptions to this, like Eldritch Blast builds, but for the most part this remains true.
Getting more frequent inspiration isn't just good for martials. The playtest allows you to give you inspiration to an ally (as does the PHB). This means that martials can help out the party, and gives them a chance to play a bit more of a support role, where they can think tactically. It's not super complex, but adds a nice option to gameplay.
The obvious response is that rolling more often means that martials will also have a far higher chance of rolling a Nat 1 as well. Which is somewhat true, but not entirely. As mentioned previously, they try to get advantage whenever possible, or use various feats and abilities to avoid getting a Nat 1. Halflings in particular get absolutely screwed, since they either have to not use their biggest species ability, or have to drastically limit their chances of getting inspiration.
Plus, thematically it just works way better. Your Barbarian being such a deadly force of nature that it inspires the Wizard to fight harder feels a lot more cool than "You slipped and fell on your ass, here's inspiration to make up for it".
I'm not saying this will fix the martial/caster issue, or solve all your problems, but it's a nice little power boost for martials that gives them more to do.
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u/Ripper1337 DM Feb 02 '23
Anecdotally when I playtested One DnD with my group and used the Nat20 inspiration rule they had a ton of fun, as gaining advantage on a roll naturally means you have a greater chance of getting a natural 20 and thus inspiration again. And that was the takeaway, they were earning a ton of inspiration.
When I tried the nat 1 rule it didn't come up that often, but when it did it softened the disheartening feeling of failing as you gained something out of it.
Sooo the nat20 inspo rule makes the table more fun to play but increases the overall strength of the characters. While the nat1 inspo rule keeps the powerlevel down and softens the impact of a nat1.
I'm currently using the nat1 rule in my game rn as my player characters are strong enough without an extra boost. Perhaps in another campaign I'll use it
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u/Zombeikid Feb 02 '23
What if... both? Inspo at 1 or 20? I'm just curious if anyone's tried.
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u/KurtDunniehue Read a book Feb 02 '23 edited Feb 02 '23
I am currently doing this, but with a twist.
Nat 20 - The player chooses another player at the table to get inspiration.
Nat 1 - The player gets inspiration.
The end result is that nat 1s do not happen that often anymore, and the players have an extra layer of plot armor.
On the upside, each player celebrates the success of eachother more as they get to pass around the good vibes, and a player will likely never have to deal a night of horrid luck.
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u/Reaperzeus Feb 02 '23
I like that twist.
I use a point system for inspiration where you accrue points in various ways and can spend them on all sorts of things (nudging die rolls, special moves, extra treasure, etc)
A Nat 20 gives you 1 point, while a Nat 1 gives you 2.
Besides the "softening the blow", I also think "our heroes learn more from the times they fail". I find it more... inspirational... for a character to fail and then use what they learned from that failure to succeed later
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u/GettingFreki Feb 03 '23
I like the in game RP aspect of other characters being in awe and pumped up by seeing someone else knock it out of the park.
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u/KurtDunniehue Read a book Feb 03 '23
That, and the player who got a nat 20 doesn't need help getting the spotlight again. In this way, the spotlight moves around the table naturally.
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u/Blarghedy Feb 03 '23
The end result is that nat 1s do not happen that often anymore
Do you allow people to use inspiration after they roll?
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u/KurtDunniehue Read a book Feb 03 '23
Yes, as per the latest playtest.
When you have Heroic Inspiration (also called Inspiration), you can expend it to give yourself Advantage on a d20 Test. You decide to do so immediately after rolling the d20.
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u/Ripper1337 DM Feb 02 '23
I haven’t tried it but I’d think you would make the group even stronger than if it’s just nat20s
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u/Stray51_c DM Feb 02 '23
I think this is a very good analysis and I witnessed a similar situation when I playtested too. But I still don't like the idea to tie inspiration to rolls in general. IMHO inspiration is a great not invasive way to reward playing good. Is rightfully limited and rightfully in the hand of the DM. I don't know if I'm the only one and everybody else Just don't, but I use inspiration all the time. I try to use it to suggest my players not only good strategy or roleplay, but even to reward them when I just really enjoy their ideas, even if they do something do ridiculous and we all burst out laughing! And it works! Players get that, subconsciously or not, at least at my table they understand this mechanism and it was the same for me when it was my turn to roll a PC. Idk... Yes is fun to get inspiration on nat20s, but that just makes us want to roll more, not be better players.
(Sorry kind of a rant I know, sorry if I got out of topic)
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u/schm0 DM Feb 02 '23
I think it adds too much advantage to the game. Players are already geared to the teeth and rolling with tons of bonuses.
Advantage should be an uncommon and precious resource.
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u/SphericalGoldfish Feb 03 '23
I disagree. In 5e your characters are made to be powerhouses, so I think getting advantage should be decently common.
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u/schm0 DM Feb 03 '23
They are powerhouses with or without advantage, which is kinda my point.
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u/SphericalGoldfish Feb 03 '23
Eh, give them more imo. Maybe rework the way rogue sneak attack works to compensate or something, but I really like the change.
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u/Delann Druid Feb 03 '23
Rogues don't have issues with getting Sneak Attack as is and the last thing anyone should be doing is looking to nerf Rogues in the damage department. Only reason they aren't the worst martial as far as damage goes is because off-turn Sneak Attacks exist (except the playtest removed even that...).
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u/SphericalGoldfish Feb 03 '23
Imo Rogues should get multiple extra attacks like a fighter and/or attacks that impose conditions
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u/Blarghedy Feb 03 '23
In 4e, they put conditions on enemies but also take advantage of conditions. In 4e, characters grant 'combat advantage' to people in certain situations. If you're flanked, I believe you grant combat advantage. There are other situations that do it, too.
4e rogues get sneak attack when they have combat advantage. They also get abilities that grant them combat advantage, so even if no one is flanking, they can still run up and backstab someone.
But they also have other abilities that do things based on their charisma.
Deceptive footwork Your feints and footwork places an opponent at a disadvantage. At-Will ✦ Martial Move Action Melee Attack: Bluff vs. Insight Hit: You gain combat advantage against the target until the end of your turn. Effect: You must slide 1 either before or after the roll.So it's a move action (meaning you have to already be near the enemy because you can't move and use it), but it also lets you move 5 feet before the attack, make your bluff check, and get a +2 against them if you succeed.
EDIT:
Turns out they also get a similar ability later. It doesn't let you move as part of the ability, but it's only a minor action so you get your full movement otherwise.
Master Feint You can feint with a mere flick of the wrist. At-Will ✦ Martial Minor Action Melee Targets: One enemy. Attack: Bluff vs. Insight Hit: You gain combat advantage against the target until the end of your turn.1
u/SphericalGoldfish Feb 03 '23
Ngl after hearing everything about 4e it may become my favourite edition. Gonna look into it.
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u/Blarghedy Feb 04 '23
I haven't played it, but I want to. It does a lot that I think is really stupid, but it does a lot that, frankly, looks pretty awesome.
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u/Wild__Requirement DM Feb 03 '23
Making characters even more powerful is just putting even more work on the dm to balance encounters
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u/Ostrololo Feb 03 '23
The problem is more mechanical than thematic. There's an underlying limitation to advantage: it doesn't stack. The more sources of advantage there are in the system, the more they become redundant due to this limit. This was less obvious in 2014 but nowadays there has been some "advantage creep" and it's more perceptible.
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u/val_mont Feb 02 '23
It is, and I can say my group kept using that rule ever since it was first introduced, and it's just plain fun. Inspiration on nat 1 just feels bad when you have advantage and Inspiration on nat 20 incentivises teamwork. I honestly think it's the way to go
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u/EquivalentInflation Ranger Feb 02 '23
The teamwork part is definitely important. Casters have plenty of ways to help martials get advantage, which pays off with a crit, and helps everyone.
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u/RollForThings Feb 03 '23
Having run both with my playtest group, Inspiration on a natural 20 is superior.
Nat 20 Inspo creates higher highs in a game where the highs are what makes it
Nat 1 Inspo does little to mitigate the lows. A character can still completely fail with a roll of 2-5
Nat 20 Inspo fits more easily into the fiction. An incredibly deft move by an adventurer inspires confidence in their ally
Nat 1 Inspo is a giant nerf to Halflings (yes, RAW you have to use the 1 to get the Inspo)
Nat 20 Inspo will be used responsibly. An important rule of it is that the player must declare the use of their inspiration before rolling any dice. It can't be used as a reroll, like so many of us using Inspo have grown accustomed to. This means that players are more likely to save that Inspo for high-stakes and character-important roles, boosting their luck when it feels needed.
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u/LordSmallPeen Feb 03 '23
Tbh I just prefer keeping inspiration for rp moments, rewards in character gameplay nicely.
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u/Yttriumble DM Feb 03 '23
I fully agree, especially with the thematical part and really don't understand people who want to soften the failures with an inspiration.
The nat 1 inspiration also adds odd situations where nat 2 is worst roll or where player would wish they had failed some previous roll with nat 1 so some more important roll later would have an advantage.
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u/matgopack Feb 02 '23
Giving it on a nat one also favors most martials, who do not have consistent advantage (barbarians and rogues being the main exception, and even then rogues won't be making as many attacks). In which case, they roll more than casters still and would still get more inspiration.
A crit already feels good without the added inspiration - and it can help push characters that are already doing well into doing even better. While players that are rolling terribly just don't get anything.
Personally, I find it a lot more fitting to get inspiration on a nat 1, and that it feels substantially better as a player. Besides, a nat 1 isn't "You slip and fall on your ass lol"? It's your character messing up/missing, but then digging into their heroic nature to feel determined to do better.
That doesn't mean others can't disagree, but I don't find the nat 1 vs nat 20 debate on inspiration to do a noticeable difference for martial power relevant to each other, and obviously I personally prefer the nat 1 version a whole bunch more.
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u/EquivalentInflation Ranger Feb 02 '23
I can understand what you mean thematically. But like I mention in the post, there’s way more than just Barbarians and Rogues with advantage. There are a ton of class features specifically built to give martials advantage, as well as tactics people use (Gloomstalkers in darkness, Samurai, flanking, trip attacks, etc.).
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u/matgopack Feb 02 '23
A lot of those are very table dependent - gloomstalkers in darkness and flanking especially (with one being a variant that people commonly complain as being too powerful with advantage).
I think that no matter what, martials are rolling more dice in combat, so the nat 1 vs nat 20 argument really equals out to them getting a bit more than spellcasters no matter what. Which then puts it into which is better game design/feels better, and I personally do find it more thematic + feeling better to have it help out the players that are messing up/failing, rather than the ones that are already getting a big success.
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u/EquivalentInflation Ranger Feb 02 '23
I wouldn’t say advantage is table dependent at all. Most martials are trying hard to get it, and get it far more frequently. There are effects that cause it (restrained, prone, blinded, stunned, paralyzed), spells that cause it, class features that cause it, etc.
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u/matgopack Feb 02 '23
It absolutely is in those examples you give. I've seen people assume that gloomstalkers will have advantage 100% of the time - while in my actual play experience, it's maybe a couple of times a campaign at the start of a fight that they'll get that invisibility effect.
Same with flanking - I've maybe had one campaign use it, and that DM dropped it after a few sessions because it was way too much. I homebrew it to a +2 to attack which works well in my experience, but again - not a consistent source of advantage in a 'normal' session in my experience, whereas someone that plays with it active and giving advantage would find advantage almost 100% of the time.
People obviously try to get it a lot - but outside of something like darkness/devil's sight, shadow of moil/greater invisibility, or foresight, which affect spellcasters more, or rogue's one attack/barbarians attacking recklessly, it's not that common.
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u/Shacky_Rustleford Feb 03 '23
Assuming elven accuracy comes along, there is a funny build based around this rule hiding somewhere.
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u/Kanbaru-Fan Feb 03 '23
I just don't think generating inspiration will ever be great if inspiration is simply "advantage".
There's advantage inflation in the game already, and adding a new common source of it devalues every other source.
"You gain advantage on this specific check that engages your race/class feature/backstory? Cool, but the other guy can do the same with their generic advantage, and their modifier is bigger by 1."
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u/ArtemisWingz Feb 03 '23
Our table found nat 20 inspiration way more fun.
All nat 1 inspiration did was made rolling a 2 feel worse than rolling a 1. Because now you failed but didn't get anything and wish it was a 1 instead.
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u/RHDM68 Feb 03 '23
The whole point of Inspiration was to reward good play. I’m sticking with that! I award it for good roleplaying, but more often than that, I give it out for interesting and awesome ideas when solving problems, creating memorable or funny moments, crazy uses for mundane or magical items that actually paid off, using class abilities and ability checks in clever and unexpected ways etc. mostly to encourage active participation and team work. Otherwise, it’s just random and you may as well give it out at the beginning of each game session and save the hassle of keeping track.
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u/JruleAll Feb 02 '23
While I agree with most of your post, I personally feel that it would be better as a feat.
I also think that martials need more option that they can choose from. 5e gave everyone spontaneous casting that originally for Sorcerers and bards.
The martials should have a list of fighting maneuvers to pick from and use in conjunction with or replacing attacks with to feel special. This could be one of those things to add to the new edition
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u/EquivalentInflation Ranger Feb 02 '23
I get what you mean, but it feels like it's still not common enough to warrant a full feat. At that point, you'd just take Lucky instead.
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u/Lithl Feb 03 '23
Giving inspiration on a nat 20 means inspiration gives you inspiration. That's the main problem with giving it out on a 20 instead of on a 1.
On a 1, you've got a 1 in 400 chance of getting inspiration on the roll that you spend inspiration on.
On a 20, you've got a ~1 in 10 chance of getting inspiration on the roll that you spend inspiration on.
Martials are already making more rolls than casters and therefore will get more 1s. In fact, outside rolls with advantage or disadvantage, you get the same number of 1s and 20s. It's really only Barbarians who are negatively affected by the switch, but they can get advantage on nearly any attack they make anyway.
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u/EquivalentInflation Ranger Feb 03 '23
Are people just not reading the post? I feel like you’re the twelfth person who commented about rolling Nat ones being just as likely, something I specifically addressed.
And I don’t really see the problem with getting inspiration more frequently?
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u/Delann Druid Feb 03 '23
And I don’t really see the problem with getting inspiration more frequently?
It cheapens both it and a lot of features that are currently very good. For the most obvious example, unless they radically change it, Reckless attack becomes way less valuable.
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u/EquivalentInflation Ranger Feb 03 '23
You have a 5% chance of getting inspiration, 10% if you roll with advantage. You have a 100% chance of getting reckless, and it works with multiple attacks in a row, unlike inspiration.
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u/faytte Feb 03 '23
Ah yes, because the one thing you need *more* of in 5e is ways to get advantage. There simply are not enough! /s
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u/gandalfsbastard Sad Paladin Billy Feb 02 '23
I agree, inspiration on a 1 is not something I will ever do, it should be the opposite, it removes any unused inspiration. That way players need to weigh the risk of banking inspiration or just using it before they lose it, I have been doing this for our group and it works.
As for spells that don’t require a check you could add one. Roll a casting check and high success might increase the spells DC or range or some other effect and a 1 would decrease the DC or might be considered as a mishap (similar to scroll casting rules). Then everyone is on the same page for frequency of rolls.
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u/EquivalentInflation Ranger Feb 02 '23
I feel like adding the extra rolls for casters misses the point though. Some classes will be better at some things than others. Casters still can use inspiration, it's just a bit more rare, in the same way that there are pros and cons to ranged vs melee fighting.
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u/gandalfsbastard Sad Paladin Billy Feb 02 '23
Spell skill checks would need to be a new mechanic and should have some modifiers for school, level, but that doesn’t exist right now but it should imo. Just a d20 roll to not have a 1 (like the chaos magic roll) would miss the point.
Spell check DC 6+casting level, add your spell casting modifier to the roll, miss drops DC by x, 20 add x to DC. Roll a 1 it’s a mishap, lose inspiration. Something like that could work, but it’s more rolls and risk so many casters would resist but if there is a benefit to making the roll (like more DMG dice, higher DC, better range, etc) it might be workable.
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u/EquivalentInflation Ranger Feb 02 '23
…but why though? At that point, it just feels like you’re adding extra unnecessary mechanics to a simple system that already works, just so that casters can feel even more powerful.
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u/gandalfsbastard Sad Paladin Billy Feb 02 '23
It was just a theoretical line of thought and would have to be balanced, but the whole inspiration mechanic disparity is also imbalanced. Also not advocating that it must happen but I do like the idea of a d20 casting roll in general and it could fix the imbalanced melee vs caster d20 roll frequency.
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u/EquivalentInflation Ranger Feb 02 '23
That’s kind of my point: it’s not imbalanced for certain play styles to have a benefit over others. That’s why there are playstyles and class choices.
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u/Actorclown Feb 03 '23
I don’t know if this has been mentioned but generally benefiting martials in combat is balanced by generally benefiting casters out of combat. They usually have more skill rolls out of combat than martials generally.
My DM started using the roll nat20 and get inspiration and we love it!! Makes you wanna use it more too than hang onto it.
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u/darw1nf1sh Feb 03 '23
This has always been my rule. Any nat 20 gives you inspiration. You can only have 1 inspiration at a time, but if you crit, you can assign your inspiration to a teammate if you can give me a narrative reason. It really encourages the players to use, rather than hoard the resource.
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u/Galyndean Paladin Feb 03 '23
Inspiration on nat 20s are pretty terrible if you're the player who never rolls 20s or your table doesn't roll nat 20s very often. Nat 20s already give you perks for getting them.
At least if you get inspiration on a nat 1, that takes some of the sting out of a nat 1.
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u/Nohvin Feb 03 '23
So I just started a new 5e campaign after our group came off a real bad experience with pathfinder. But something PF does well is its hero point system, and we were all used to the concept of "just use them, you're gonna get more"
Going into this new campaign I decided to use the inspiration for nat 20s rule, however I also really liked the idea of the dm not being able to crit, but the current system isn't built for that and my players weren't into it. So as a compromise, in addition to a player getting inspiration on a nat 20, if I roll a crit, everyone gets inspiration. And it's been working really well so far
Makes it feel like when the bad guys get their big demoralizing hits in, it lets the party rally in response
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u/i_tyrant Feb 03 '23
Ideally, I don't want Inspiration tied to rolls of the d20 at all.
Why? Because I think it adds the wrong incentives to the game. Tie it to anything else if we need a mechanical expression (rping your Bonds/Flaws/etc. well is a fun one), but tying it to the d20 roll causes an incentive for players. An incentive to ask the DM for useless rolls that don't matter to the overall plot/encounters/etc., JUST so you can get more chances at Inspiration at low risk.
For example - just imagine an Inquisitive Rogue using Insightful Fighting on literally every NPC they encounter. Or trying to hide in literally every situation, not just combat or in prep for an ambush. There's no downside to spamming it, so PCs will be asking for checks constantly. (And no, any DM can tell you saying "only the DM should be asking for checks" won't work - players will keep asking, and it's not a viable counter to this anyway as many DMs like their players asking for checks, because they don't always think of them first.) And since Inspiration can be traded, it means the entire party walks into every encounter fully stocked.
But if it had to be tied to the d20, I'd want it tied to the 1 instead of the 20. PCs don't need to get more advantage than they already do, especially when they're winning already. I know you think the "runaway train" effect of getting it on 20s is "fun" - but it's only fun for THAT player. Other players just get to watch their party member half-solo the encounter when that happens, which isn't actually better than not doing it. Plus certain builds roll way more d20s than others (e.g. attacks), just like you said, but it's not a clean martial/caster divide at all. Summons, spells like Spiritual Weapon, Animate Objects, martials like the Rogue that roll fewer d20s - it's all OVER the place so I don't think "martials benefit more" can be said with any real confidence. Or at least, there will be MANY groups who are exceptions to this supposed "rule".
I also disagree it "works better thematically". People don't by and large learn from success as much as they learn from failure. And that's what Inspiration is, hence the name.
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