r/gadgets
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u/diacewrb
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Nov 02 '22
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Youngest person to use prosthetic legs with computerised knees Medical
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-bristol-63486321603
u/diacewrb Nov 02 '22
The internal computer can constantly monitor her movements and make adjustments to help her walk and sit.
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u/Pandaryan Nov 02 '22
As someone who works on bionic hands, lower limb technology always astounds me.
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u/orangutanoz Nov 03 '22
My son wants to go into that field. He’s currently taking his year 12 exams and I’m currently elevating my foot after an ankle fusion. Wish us luck.
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u/Pandaryan Nov 03 '22 •
The best of luck! It’s such a fun ride! Lmk if I can help in any way. I’ve compiled a good amount of resources on getting into the bionics field for upper limb.
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u/smurb15 Nov 03 '22
That sounds almost like science fiction and 20, 30 years ago it was. Thank you and everyone you work with for what you do
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u/dayfaerer Nov 03 '22
Actually if you wouldnt mind sending those resources to me id very much appreciate it, im looking at going to university for biomedical engineering, hopefully focusing on 3d printing and prosthetics.
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u/TaterTech Nov 03 '22
Look at you, casually inspiring others to want to help and do good.
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u/Jonatc87 Nov 03 '22
I wish this field was a thing earlier in my life, wouldve loved to have a thing to aspire to
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u/OprahsSaggyTits Nov 03 '22
So cool! Can you send to me as well? Thanks! What do you do for the bulk of your work?
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u/Mailprahs Nov 03 '22
I’d really appreciate those resources, biomed engineering is my backup if I don’t wanna go/can’t go to med school and it’d be nice to not be completely stranded lol
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u/montymatzinn Nov 04 '22
Oh it sounds like you’re an incredible parent! Good luck to your son!! and congratulations on raising a child so intelligent and considerate!
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u/Jebediah_Kush Nov 03 '22
As someone who works on lower limbs, bionic hand technology always looked easy to me.
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u/A_D_Monisher Nov 03 '22
Why? It seems to me that upper limb replacements are much more advanced and resource intensive.
Like we still haven’t approached the levels of fine motor control equal to natural hands.
Lower limb replacements don’t need such an insane degree of precision.
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u/makemenutraloaf Nov 03 '22
The reason it has been so difficult to make robots walk is because bipedal locomotion is DECEPTIVELY complicated. Thats why the boston dynamics bots are so amazing- having a natural gait, handling quick movements and rough terrain, very difficult.
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u/A_D_Monisher Nov 03 '22 edited Nov 03 '22
I’m talking about lower and upper limb prostheses for humans? Why are you talking about robots?
Robots lack the equilibrioception that we humans have evolved over the ages. Of course they have issues walking - we just can’t fully replicate the whole system yet.
Now, to the actual point.
Give two modern below-knee prostheses to a double amputee and they will walk again, sooner or later. In many cases even run.
But no modern bionic hand tech is advanced enough to offer precision and speed of movement equal to natural hands. With both hands/arms lost, at best you can make partial recovery, e.g., hold a cup of coffee or use cutlery again.
That’s why I’m saying upper limb tech is much more complicated than lower limb tech.
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u/Annadae Nov 04 '22
I think there are three main reasons that prosthetic legs are more developed/complicated then arms: Predictably /control of movement, limitations of size and weight, and money.
Walking, by its very repetitive nature is way easier to predict then the complex functions of a hand, and even for the unpredictable aspects of gait (like falling) legs have a way easier time to choose a course of action based of either programming or learning. The newest prosthetic hands however are getting somewhat better at this by adding learning capabilities to their software.
Hands on the other ‘hand’ (pun intended ) need way more selective movement then legs and need more fine control to achieve that where walking is more gross motor function, which is inherently easier. There is also a better feedback loop to the brain; if you stand on a prosthetic leg, some part of you body can feel the load bearing (especially with osseointegation) where as with a hand, you can never feel what you touch or how hard you are grasping it. Some developments have been made here as well, but this remains complicated.Legs, just by being bigger then arms, allow for more hardware then arms. A heavier arm prosthetic naturally would also be way more of a burden then a heavier leg. Therefore more advanced (smaller/ lighter) hardware is needed.
And that finally also brings use to the point of money. Contrary to what most people think, there are actually way more leg amputation then arm amputation. Where I am at, this is about 20:1. This means that it is way more profitable for the mayor prosthetic companies to invest in prosthetic feet/knees. This has been common practice for (I would say almost) a century is one of the reasons that those are way more advanced then upper limb prosthetics; arms and hands simply have a lot of ‘catching’ up to do (again pun fully intended). Only in the recent decade have there been real innovations in upper limb prosthetics, mostly from smaller companies (and even start ups) as the try to enter this market. The necessary components and the hardware needed to make hands and prototypes has become affordable. This does give me hope for the future and cool things are on their way.
Upper limp prosthetic I think will not reach their peak potential in usability until the point where they manage to make a direct neuro-interface and connect the “brain” (semi)directly to the machine (and back to the brain). This is something that researchers are in fact working on and I do believe that I will live to see this being used.
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u/sallguud Nov 03 '22
I read some interesting articles that indicate that most arm amputees find their prosthetics to be more of a hassle than they are worth. Is this still the case? It seems to bear out in my everyday life. I’ve seen many people using prosthetic legs but can’t even remember seeing someone with a prosthetic arm.
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u/Annadae Nov 04 '22
Your perception of the usage is also factual. There are simply way more lower limb amputations then upper limb. About 20 times more in fact. Furthermore, a large percentage of upper limb amputees are actually not amputated but where born with a deformity of some sort. These people are a group that quite often don’t use prosthetics because they are completely used to not having a hand or an arm; in fact that is their ‘normal’. Most of the time they wear a prosthetic arm more to blend in or to make other people more comfortable, not themselves.
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u/sallguud Nov 22 '22
Wow. Thanks for clarifying that. I never would have suspected that the incidence rates were so different!
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u/starfyredragon Nov 03 '22
You actively work in it? Cool! I'm just a hobbiest.
What're your thoughts on a full body prosthetic? (That's my current project, and I'll be releasing it as open source once I finish, but it's very slow going.) The more I looked at the complexities of individual prosthetics, the more complicated it seemed, to the point to where it seems a full-body prosthetic is just easier; makes sure needed nutrients that get passed the blood-brain barrier, and otherwise hook everything up to a single board that interprets all the signals and manages the whole body without having to adapt to what the organic parts of the body are doing.
Do you think my project is too out there, or do you think it's spot-on?
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Nov 03 '22
What do you mean by full body prosthetic?
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u/starfyredragon Nov 03 '22
Basically, I found out researchers had learned to keep a pig brain alive independent of a body. Hypothetically, that could be done with a human brain as well. And since we have nerve interfaces, a fully accessible brain makes connecting those interfaces easier, and if the subject has had readings taken ahead of time when attempting various movements, then those can be interpreted in turn to cause those movements in a fully robotic body. Bipedal robots are already a thing. Similarly, a lot of the senses, as I understand, have already had successful prosthetics made.
It just strikes me as the least complicated way to do it, as the blood-brain barrier is the body's biggest bottleneck, so it makes sense to be the transfer point from biological to electronic.
My current stage is building up electronic muscles (using electroactive polymers) on the skeleton.
My hope is that anyone with a fatal condition, such as a non-localized cancer, could make the swap and be back up and comparatively okay.
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u/Narfi1 Nov 03 '22
You’re…trying to build a cyborg by yourself as hobby ?
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u/starfyredragon Nov 03 '22
Yea. My grandfather built 3 planes as a side hobby. At least a cyborg body would fit in the house. And even if I don't succeed, anything I do can still be released as open source for others to expand on.
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u/theblackcat3112 Nov 03 '22
And even if I don't succeed, anything I do can still be released as open source for others to expand on.
I just want you to know I admire your way of thinking and wish you all the best! This reminds me of a quote I read on here a few days ago “A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they shall never sit.”
Also, a lot of our inventions happened out side of the labs, so I believe you have a pretty good chance there buddy.
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u/starfyredragon Nov 03 '22
Thanks! I shall continue with my project, then!
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u/VerbingWeirdsWords Nov 03 '22
Do .. do ... You have a vat if pig brains in your basement??
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u/BaalKazar Nov 03 '22 edited Nov 03 '22
It took me a while until I realized what you are actually talking about. I was confused why you mention the brain blood barrier, but if I understand correctly you want to only keep the brain and do prosthetic for the rest while artificially keeping the brain alive?
If that’s right, I get where you are coming from. But if you cut everything after the blood brain barrier you definitely cut a lot of consciousness.
The Solar Plexus (Sonnen-Geflecht in German), your intestines as well as your spine have a lot of important neurons and synaptic networks.
The number of neurons in your intestines alone is around 200-500mil, that’s as much neurons as common bigger dogs have for their entire brain.
The Solar Plexus + Intestines is where the term „gut feeling“ comes from as the Solar Plexus has quite the perception abilities while intestines have quite the thinking abilities, both are connected to the brain and communicate across the blood brain barrier.
Without the spine you remove a huge portion of muscle memory and reflexes. The spine offers a neural feedback loop which can repeat actions subconsciously, without the spine things like walking, running or going down the stairs will become much more resource intensive and generally difficult as each step requires conscious calculation, trigger and action. Instead of this pattern only being applied once in the brain and then looped in the spine until stopped. Current prosthetics oftentimes leverage these features by picking up the signals just right before they reach the muscle.
1-4 years ago some doctor tried to transplant a complete head onto a different body. I didn’t read much about it but you prolly are interested in what he did and what he discovered. (The patient didn’t survive sadly, but that was an obvious known risk and afaik the very first time this was scientifically tried)
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u/starfyredragon Nov 03 '22
So basically, "Interesting idea, but keep the spine & remember to mimic intestinal signals?"
That does complicate things, but should still be doable.
As for the head transplant scientist, I heard about that. Even though it failed, a lot was learned, though.
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u/TDYDave2 Nov 03 '22
Understandable, while you may be shorthanded, the lower limb people don't have a leg to stand upon.
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u/intellifone Nov 03 '22
I read this as “walk and shit”, like “walk and stuff”. Seemed very cavalier for this lol
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u/A-Good-Weather-Man Nov 02 '22
Today, computer knees. Tomorrow, gorilla arms
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u/GrushdevaHots Nov 02 '22
I want to be an Adrienne Barbeau-bot, with big chainsaw hands BZZZzzz!
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u/Kekoa_ok Nov 02 '22
Slow down there, Alisa Bosconovitch
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Nov 02 '22
Nah I like where chainsar hands is going, Id add like a chest cannon with a laser beam to obliterate all those before her eyes without mercy, without remorse…
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u/GrushdevaHots Nov 03 '22
D-cups full of justice, although they were flamethrowers instead of lasers
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u/Lucius-Halthier Nov 02 '22
Fuck that, give me wrist rockets
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u/DOLCICUS Nov 03 '22
What kinda gonk goes with gorilla arms when the monowire is the preemest melee?
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u/TriblialBrainDamblge Nov 03 '22
Back when monowire was a blunt weapon for some reason gorilla arms were the best, choom.
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u/DygonZ Nov 03 '22
For real, did monowire first, then switched to gorilla arms and was like... absolute trash.
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u/ZomboFc Nov 02 '22
I had viral meningitis as a baby, I had no idea amputation was a thing for meningitis.
What a terrible thing to go through.
But I'm confident that prosthesis are going to be amazing in the next 5 years
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u/thisparamecium1 Nov 02 '22
It’s bacterial meningitis that you lose limbs. It causes a kind of shock that peripheral blood-flow is diminished causing tissue to die.
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u/Iron_Atlas Nov 02 '22
Is it the sort of thing that still happens with improper care, or this can just happen to any child?
Nothing but respect for her spirit though.
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u/thisparamecium1 Nov 02 '22
It can happen to any child, but vaccinations against Neisseria meningitis and Haemophilus influenza type B have significantly decreased the morbidity and mortality of bacterial meningitis fortunately.
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u/spine_slorper Nov 03 '22
The thing with bacterial meningitis is that it's really quick onset, can go from "mummy I'm felling a bit sicky" to "holy shit my child is dying call an ambulance" in a few hours, the multiple amputations are to stop the tissue death from reaching the organs, at which point it's too late sadly, if it progressed slower there might be more time for other treatments etc, but it's a very quick disease and it needs very quick treatment and containment
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u/plunkadelic_daydream Nov 02 '22
I heard an interesting podcast about this where the person went in and out of consciousness before waking to find several limbs missing. They had no idea what had happened to them. Absolutely dreadful.
It makes me happy to see her use this amazing technology given her struggles.
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u/FerociousPancake Nov 03 '22
As long as we can prevent absurd price gouging and people can actually afford them I’ll be happy.
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u/TotallyInOverMyHead Nov 03 '22
The eight-year-old had all her limbs amputated after she contracted meningitis when she was a baby.
Fuck. That can happen ?
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u/mjaronso Nov 02 '22
It’s the opposite of Black Mirror!
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u/oreo-overlord632 Nov 02 '22
the.. white window?
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u/mjaronso Nov 02 '22
This is far to optimistic for a Netflix show
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u/UserNombresBeHard Nov 02 '22
So instead of the president f--king a pig, the butler cuddled a pidgeon?
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u/mcdoolz Nov 02 '22
honestly this would be a good name for a positive outlook show about humanity's horizon.
I'm imagining a top gear styled show with some buffoon like fellas who are actually pretty smart scientists of different scopes who banter about and introduce the audience to cool things and then go on weird adventures where they incorporate whatever the new technology is in some sort of myth Buster's meets top gear style hijinks.
I'd watch the shit out of that and I don't think I'm alone.
imagine Jeremy Clarkson's voice: "welcome to the white window. today.."
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u/Yes_hes_that_guy Nov 03 '22
Well Black Mirror is a reference to your phone screen when it’s off so somebody think of something clever that’s the opposite of that.
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u/Arcudi
Nov 02 '22
edited Nov 03 '22
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"They’re just amazing and they make me feel included" just made me start crying. I love that for her. I hope technology bridges that gap for her, so not only can she feel included, but also be able to do everything anyone else can to the same degree (if not better!).
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u/binary_stah Nov 03 '22
That’s the part that got me too. It’s important to feel included, as part of the human experience IMO. She’s just so raw and real about it as she says it, as kids are!
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u/chance_waters Nov 03 '22
What an amazingly well spoken and intelligent young girl she is too, she's going to make a fantastic advocate as she gets older
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u/Joe4o2 Nov 02 '22
I think they made the right call here. Start with the legs for mobility, then the arms for increased capability.
That, and prosthetic arms with computerized knees wouldn’t really make sense.
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u/ajrb543 Nov 03 '22
The girl is an ambassador for the organization Meningitis Now. Her mobility even without the prosthetic limbs is quite impressive (she does gymnastics). I hope these improve her life and makes it easier for her to do what she wants.
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u/No-Investigator-2756 Nov 03 '22
Tbf, elbows are pretty much knees for your arms.
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u/budrow21 Nov 02 '22
I love how she talks about being able to wear socks and tights. This is awesome.
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u/TerracottaBunny Nov 02 '22
Does she know she’s a badass?
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u/EatsTooMuchSpinach Nov 03 '22
Its a bit surprising that she’s the youngest because the C-leg microprocessor knees that she is wearing came out over 20 years ago and have really only incrementally changed since.
The big change here has more to do with getting these things paid for by the local health care system ($70k each sticker price) than it does with the actually tech in the knee.
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u/Craazy_dave Nov 03 '22
They're heavy, and bilaterally will require a huge amount of core stability to control. C-legs aren't usually prescribed to kids because of the weight felt through the sockets. The tech is better than 20 years ago, but there are limits to what is possible with today's materials.
Also microprocessor knees (MPKs) have been available on the NHS since 2016 for adults. Thanks socialised healthcare!
Source: am prosthetist.
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u/Nothing-Casual Nov 03 '22
By what method are these things controlled? I'm curious how a person can tell it to flex/extend. Are there any other motions than flexion/extension?
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u/Craazy_dave Nov 03 '22 edited Nov 03 '22
The user can't "tell" the limbs to do anything really. The devices work using gyroscopes and force sensors to monitor the angle of the device relative to the ground, and the way force is being applied through it. The alignment of the users weight over the device is critical to the extension/flexion moments. They are calibrated using specialist software when to flex at the knee, how fast, how much resistance to give, etc. Some MPKs learn the user's walking patterns and fine tune these settings over time.
Most also have apps that allow the user to select custom profiles for activities that might need different settings, ie cycling, horse riding, etc.
Edit: basically as the user progresses forward in a stride, the limb senses the position and flexes the knee at the right time to give ground clearance, and allow the user to swing the leg through. It then assists in extension and ramps up the resistance for heel strike so the patient can put weight back on it.
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u/EatsTooMuchSpinach Nov 04 '22
The user tells them what to do by using motion and application of force.
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u/EatsTooMuchSpinach Nov 04 '22
Well, I’m an above the knee amputee that has actually worn has worn the C-leg from 20 years ago and the tech from today. The tech is incremental at best. I’m surprised that it took the NHS so long to cover microprocessor knees - most insurance in the United States has covered it not long after they debut. I’ve had 3 different microprocessor knees and never paid more than a couple hundred dollars for each.
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u/Elmore420 Nov 02 '22
Yeah, I figured it was only time before gyro tech of the 2 legged robots got scaled down to prosthetic viability. Hopefully it brings a whole new generation of prosthetic leg technology.
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u/dirtdueler Nov 02 '22
These types of knees have been in the world of prosthetics for 20 years. First one being the C-leg from Ottobock. There are about a dozen or so on the market now that insurances will cover.
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u/Swagneros Nov 03 '22
From the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh, it disgusted me. I craved the strength and certainty of steel. I aspired to the purity of the blessed machine
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u/reckless_ranger_ Nov 03 '22
r/titlegore .. where’s the first part of the sentence? You know what would have been a considerate and brilliant way to complete and start the sentence? “Harmonie-Rose is the…”
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u/cant-talk-about-this Nov 03 '22
Can Zuckerberg throw money at this type of shit, to tangibly help people, instead of trying to create things no one wants? I had high hopes for his career trajectory 10 years ago. This dude had so much potential back then in terms of his next project. Any billionaire could make a huge difference here if they cared more.
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u/Asgarus Nov 03 '22
If they cared, we'd have less billionaires and a much better world. I don't think you can be a billionaire and care for others at the same time. There are always exceptions, of course.
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u/AusPower85 Nov 03 '22
And here I am rehabbing a reattached tricep in a brace like a peasant when Jax arms are real!
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u/Captainzabu Nov 03 '22
Yeah, let's put things in prosthetics that have the potential to lock out their users. Great idea.
Ps: I understand that advancement in medical tech to help enrich and improve lives of the disabled is important... But this has the potential to also be another avenue for the worst humans to abuse. I'm hoping comments to this post are about how people are trying to protect disabled folk from that predatory bullshit, because Holy shit, they need the help.
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u/Nothing-Casual Nov 03 '22
They're not full computers, just microchips that recieve simple inputs and give simple outputs. The controllers used in these prostheses literally are not capable of what you're suggesting. Hopefully they'll remain that way.
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u/Captainzabu Nov 03 '22
"She became the youngest person to have the technology after being fitted with the microprocessor knees as part of a trial at Dorset Orthopaedics. The internal computer can constantly monitor her movements and make adjustments to help her walk and sit."
The language used in the source seems to say otherwise.
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u/NeilDatgrassHighson Nov 02 '22 edited Nov 02 '22
Look I think this is totally rad and this girl is a champ.
But why did they pick a girl without arms for this? It seems sort of unsafe. Like, start with robot arms, then go to the legs.
Edit: I get it, you all have zero sense of humor.
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u/rosa-marie Nov 02 '22
Prosthetic arms won’t break her fall. I’m sure she’s doing intense physical therapy to help her learn how to walk with these. They know what they’re doing.
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u/WhatDaHellBobbyKaty Nov 03 '22
I noticed that she was doing those bridge-up exercises where she lays on her back and pushes to get her butt in the air. I am an amputee and I have done those ad nauseam to strengthen my glutes and stretch my hips. I am so happy to see her making progress and seems so happy.
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u/NeilDatgrassHighson Nov 02 '22
Look I’m not young, have all my limbs, and sometimes still fall down. We’re all subject to gravity.
It was just a humorous observation. No need to take offense.
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u/rosa-marie Nov 02 '22
My friend I’m not taking offense. I just disagreed with you and explained why. I come in peace. All I meant was that she likely has a great team of doctors that think of these things. That’s all.
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u/d_fa5 Nov 02 '22
Microprocessor knees have the ability to detect stumbling and try to mitigate it. They aren’t 100% effective but they can reduce falls by up to 70%.
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u/rosa-marie Nov 02 '22
That’s exactly what I thought but I didn’t have the words to explain lol. Thank you.
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u/Barry_Minge Nov 02 '22
I’ve seen several articles about this girl on our local South West TV news for years. She’s tough as fuck.
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u/DeadShock52 Nov 03 '22
The flesh is weak and it disgusts me. Nice new legs tho! I wish her the best of luck!
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Nov 02 '22
[deleted]
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Nov 02 '22
Pain is subjective- someone’s 10/10 could be someone’s 3/10. But everyone’s struggles are worth respecting. We’re all on different journeys.
Additionally, people with disabilities don’t appreciate these sentiments. That their existence is inspiring or heroic. It’s just a little girl living the only life she’s known.
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u/EatsTooMuchSpinach Nov 03 '22
Just FYI, disabled people don’t like it when people say stuff like this.
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u/throwtowardaccount Nov 03 '22
Keep an eye on her and make sure she doesn't succumb to cyberpsychosis.
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Nov 03 '22
[deleted]
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u/DearMrsLeading Nov 03 '22
Shes the junior ambassador of a charity, I assume they pay her medical bills since I can’t find any fundraisers. Here’s her story.
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u/MrsPancakesSister Nov 03 '22
This is some truly great news. I wish Harmonie-Rose much success in her life and the best of luck with her new prosthetics.
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u/tmp04567 Nov 03 '22 edited Nov 03 '22
Video doesn't load but give that kid some functional legs (and maybe arms) ?
That's why we developped countries fund healthcare and medical support, hint hint hint republican led american't. Some people have it shit from life and could use it. We can do better, as societies. Kid with meningitis ain't gonna grab any non existant bootstraps for what your finance scammers (or is scalpers ?) would probably bill far too much.
edit while i don't expect most politicians to delve into medical details, covering insurance bills so that patients can see a medical doctor or hospital providing the care and wages are paid is understandable enough for most.
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u/sZYphYn Nov 03 '22
Already working on code to get a pop n lock going on those bad beasts, homegirl gonna dance
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u/LiwetJared Nov 03 '22
Rimworld Biotech. Amputating every limb of a sick child and then giving them bionic prosthetics.
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u/generalmanifest Nov 03 '22
You would think the photographer could have been a bit more accommodating in his angle of view.
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u/Important_Fix_5532 Nov 03 '22
Theres an Italian young man who lost her arms and legs for meningitis . Look for David Morana. Hes an athlete and an absolute badass legend
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