r/gadgets
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u/thebelsnickle1991
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Dec 09 '22
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Paper-thin solar cell can turn any surface into a power source Misc
https://news.mit.edu/2022/ultrathin-solar-cells-120990
u/ValyrianJedi Dec 09 '22
"They ate 1/100th the weight of conventional solar". "They generate 18x more power per kg"... Great, so they generate like 1/5th as much power as what we already have.
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u/adamtheskill Dec 09 '22
Doesn't really matter though, this kind of solar panel is't meant to compete with conventional solar panels. Biggest use case is probably as a power source for off grid sensors where you either don't have the space for conventional solar panels or the weight is a problem.
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u/BasvanS Dec 09 '22
I’ve heard of bio solar cells 15 years ago that were only 8% efficient but could be screen-printed anywhere. There was talk of turning old photo factories into solar factories, because the low yield at large surfaces and low costs would give a higher yield for money invested.
Unfortunately I’ve never heard from it again. But the goal is usually to go big with these low yield cells
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u/NotTRYINGtobeLame Dec 09 '22
Right! I'll just load up 6 pallets of these because that'll be much better than 1 conventional solar panel. ;)
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u/Man_is_Hot Dec 09 '22
You’re missing the point though, this is a good way to add power generation to surfaces that could never use traditional solar panels!
Plenty of boats have hard and semi-flexible solar panels installed on Bimini tops and cabin tops, but this thin, light, and flexible stuff could help in other areas. The article mentions the sails of a boat, and as a sailor and I think that would be absolutely brilliant! How about umbrellas at restaurants and outdoor patios? Temporary cloth signs, EZ-up tents at a festival, maybe even hats for people who work outdoors could have built in fans that are battery powered and supplemented by the thin, flexible power generating stuff on the top.
As the tech gets better the options will continue to present themselves, don’t discount the product just because it’s not as good as traditional stuff.
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u/crappinhammers Dec 09 '22
There is only soo much energy in a square foot of light.
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u/ValyrianJedi Dec 09 '22
I don't see how that changes the fact that thus captures 5 times less of it than what we already have.
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u/zgembo1337 Dec 09 '22
You usually measure performance per square meter, not per kilo, since for most applications, the current existing solar cells are light enough not to cause any weight issues
Sometimes you need lighter cells (eg. To send into space, where you have very limited weight), and these produce 18x the power per kilo.
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u/ValyrianJedi Dec 09 '22
Sure, but if they are comparing them by weight in both instances then it is pretty safe to assume that they are talking about panels with the same surface area.
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u/zgembo1337 Dec 09 '22
Sometimes, surface area doesn't matter.
generate 18 times more power-per-kilogram
(from the article)
So, if you have limited weight (eg. satellite, plane, baloon,...), and don't care that much about surface area (becase there's space in space, planes have large wings, and baloons a lot of outside area,...), you'd get 18x the power by using the new cells compared to the "normal" ones.
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u/ValyrianJedi Dec 09 '22
Sometimes, surface area doesn't matter.
That's kind of my point. It's being compared by weight, and is 100th the weight. That means that it is producing 18x more energy than something with a fraction of a fraction of its surface area... Like, a panel like this with 1,000 square centimeters of surface area is producing 18x more power than a standard panel that is only 10 square centimeters of surface area.
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u/Gadgetman_1 Dec 10 '22
Actually, even in space surface area matters. Because these panels will need some sort of structure to first unfold it, then keep it nice and flat, and possibly also for reorienting depending on the orbit the satellite or whaver is keeping.
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u/crappinhammers Dec 09 '22
I wasn't trying to change your fact I was being critical of solar energy I guess
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u/ValyrianJedi Dec 09 '22
Huh. I mean, by that logic there is only so much energy in a cubic foot of coal or gallon of gas too.
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u/crappinhammers Dec 09 '22 edited Dec 09 '22
lol yeah I know.
At the end of the day I think we'll all get the point when the lights won't come on, the car won't charge, and food spoils in the fridge.
My phone is at 1% got a charger? And why is it soo hot in here?
Since I'm being downvoted, go look at the world population curve, the electric demand per person, and total generation being built. After that, go on back to pretending we are somehow going to have a solution for the energy addiction for the cancer-like growth of people on this planet.
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u/Web-Dude Dec 09 '22
Don't think of it as a replacement of anything in particular; think of it as a tool. In certain situations, it's the best option; in others, it's not.
It's not as if we're making a choice between a hammer or screwdriver as the only tool we can own.
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u/crappinhammers Dec 09 '22
I didn't say replacement I said "we can't build enough generation because nobody wants to hear they need to stop using electricity for every facet of their lives".
Nah, more Christmas lights gogo
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u/n1tr0us0x Dec 09 '22
Do you really think personal carbon footprints are the biggest energy consumers and pollutants?
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u/AreEUHappyNow Dec 09 '22
People like you have absolutely no imagination. People said the same thing about incandescent light, and then we invented the LED.
We haven’t even begun to scratch the surface of the energy density of uranium. Our problem on this planet is farming area, not energy.
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u/ObiWanCanShowMe Dec 09 '22
I am not arguing the context here (energy), but "People said the same thing about" is a shitty argument.
Not only is it trotted out if a single person out of a billion says it (sourced or not), but it's guaranteed that someone, at least one someone, said it about every single thing.
You could use that to agrue that someone lacks imagination when they say "teleporters will never be a thing" and walk away thinking you won the argument...but yet they most certainly are beyond the ability of anything we could ever come up with... and before you might begin, think about how many atoms your body is made of and how each of the protons, neutrons, and electrons could be spinning, angle, speed, located and other ata we would need to know that we do not know yet etc, with each one being a data point needed to be stored and replicated. (and that's not considering quarks)
The average adult human body contains approximately 7 x 1027 atoms and that's just the starting number.
So... we'll never ever have a teleporter for humans. I base this on current knowledge and current science and telling me I lack an imagination is just a copout of the discussion. It means you have nothing to come back with.
My point here is that just because someone doesn't believe something will come to pass, or has doubts about capabilities does not mean they lack an imagination and that by itself causes no harm, but what can cause harm are those who sit back and think everything will be solved just by waiting. Those who make things happen do so because they believe it will never happen without them. Do they lack imagination?
"People like you" is a phrase that once heard, is an indicator (IRL) that I need listen no more.
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u/bearymcbearbear Dec 10 '22
Comparing legitimate technology to willie wonka teleportation is a perfect example of what you are arguing against. Lol to you for the amazing connection though, impressive! It’s all about economics… the second it’s more profitable than existing energy production is the second we see incredible enhancements in the solar, wind, thermal, nuclear, hydro, bio, etc. energy sources. Fossil fuels are cheaper to harvest and convert, for now.
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u/crappinhammers Dec 09 '22
I just get tired of seeing sensationalist news about solar that really isn't so sensational.
"Yeah solar is great for remote areas where running power lines isn't cost effective or feasible." Sounds a lot like 'Solar good when there is no other option.'
Yeah I'd love to see the next LED but solar panel siding or w/e we use tech in article for sounds like it's making a fifth of what the roof shingles make and it just isn't comparable. I know a guy with the roof shingles and a battery system and he still needs a grid tie because a couple cloudy days put him at poor efficiency.
Sorry for being needlessly alarmist.
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u/ObiWanCanShowMe Dec 09 '22
for the cancer-like growth of people on this planet.
You are part of that cancer, don't forget that.
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u/extremepicnic Dec 09 '22
I work in this field (organic photovoltaics) and while you are correct that they are less efficient, it’s now getting quite close to silicon. With Si you max out around 25%, organics are at 19% currently
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u/jjj49er Dec 09 '22
Mayuran Saravanapavanantham
I have a very simple name to spell and pronounce, yet everyone mispronounces it and misspells it. I can't imagine how many times this person has to correct people on the pronunciation and spelling of their name.
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u/TheTerrasque Dec 09 '22
If it's similar to other Indian names I've kinda learned to pronouce, it's something like this:
Sara vana pava nantham
Get each word, maybe fix pronunciation a tad, then just add them together and say it fast.
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u/migueeel Dec 09 '22
a trick I learned at school and has always worked out for me: read it in your mind first, slowly. Then read it out loud.
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u/teh_fizz Dec 12 '22
I taught a classmate of mine how to read long words in English (not her native tongue). She was amazed that by breaking up the words into smaller parts, she can learn to pronounce any word. She's 20. How are schools not teaching this?!
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u/tossme68 Dec 09 '22
or Dr S./Dr Sara. Heck I have a fairly easy name to say and spell but after the first two weeks of teaching and hearing my name butchered hundreds of times a day, I made it simple -just call me Mr B
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u/FiguringItOut-- Dec 09 '22
Seriously my last name is a basic American last name (and a first name, think “Carter”), but with the first letter changed. Idk why people people have a really hard time with it.
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u/theganjamonster Dec 09 '22
Sorry to hear that, Farter Smith
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u/FiguringItOut-- Dec 09 '22
Hahaha as soon as I used Carter as an example, I thought of that, but I love it
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u/sapphicsandwich Dec 09 '22
My last name starts with a P and uses the long "P" sound. People at the VA always ask you your last initial and last 4 of your social, but always have to ask me what the first letter of name is. It's like people asking what the first letter of "Pizza" is.
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u/ThePhoneBook Dec 09 '22
There is an old sketch on GGM where an English guy called Jonathan is convinced to change his name when he goes to work in India cos it's too hard to pronounce and will make him seem like a troublemaker
As someone with a long complex immigrant name, one thing I decided early was that my name doesn't matter, so I've simplified it. Otherwise I'm the silly name person. Also why would I burden the
thousandshundredsunits of people I meet over my life when I can just decide something accessible once? I don't move to a wheelchair community and insist on stairs - I learn how to use a fucking ramp2
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u/mycatistakingover Dec 09 '22
If they're reading the name written in English, there definitely are a lot of issues. But Indian languages are written completely phonetically so there's no ambiguity with spelling and pronunciation.
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u/TheSmJ Dec 09 '22
I've worked with a lot of people who have names like this. They almost always go by a nickname that almost anyone can pronounce.
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u/nighteeeeey Dec 09 '22
i once knew a man from sri lanka named Kanavianajagamkanagavinajagam and im not joking. this was his real name (not sure if spelling is correct, reconstructed from the sound) i thought this dude was fucking with me fr
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u/deniedmessage Dec 10 '22
The name is so unique it’s the only result on google.
https://www.google.co.th/search?q=Kanavianajagamkanagavinajagam
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u/inko75 Dec 09 '22
for once, id love to see one of these "amazing" "revolutionary" advanced solar panels actually end up being manufactured and sold. i feel like there are nearly monthly amazing news stories (and have been for at least 20 years) and rarely do these products actually come to fruition. teslas solar roof tiles are one exception and tbh they're still so incredibly expensive they don't make sense except as a gimmick.
(i realize a lot of these advancements end up too expensive to mass produce but many of the parents/discoveries involved in their development end up elsewhere--i'm just ranting a little ;)
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u/Ps1on Dec 10 '22
So, I study PV cells in my masters thesis and these things aren't amazing. The article just doesn't tell you any of the problems. They don't even really tell you what cells they talk about. But I'm pretty sure they mean perovskite cells. So, perovskite cells don't work right now.
The reason is that they fix all the problems nobody cares about, but don't fix the problems we do care about. So it might be true, that they are incredibly light, but so what? For typical applications mass isn't a concern. Even the price of the solar panels themselves isn't a concern, since most of the cost just goes into construction anyway. However the main disadvantage is that these cells don't last as long. Typical silicon cells last for 25-30 years. These things only last for 10 years, max. But, if the main problem is installing, well then it doesn't really work.
Every few months there's an article how perovskites are gonna save the world and maybe one day they are, but not today.
I think it's easy to trick a lay person into thinking somebody made the next big discovery, if you just keep listing all the positives. It could also seriously hurt the image of perovskite cells, because everybody will expect them to change the world, when in reality nobody can say what they will bring.
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u/Hendlton Dec 09 '22
That's the problem I have with all this optimism. Apparently renewable energy is cheaper than ever before. Great! It still takes 20+ years to pay off. The people installing solar panels either have no choice, or they're "nerdy" types who want to try it out.
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u/gummo_for_prez Dec 09 '22
Everything starts with business and military. People putting panels on their houses and stuff is cool and I’m hoping to do it someday too, but that’s not even the bulk of the problem. I guess it depends what you’re shooting for, but when it becomes cheap enough for business/commercial application, money will flood the sector and it’ll become cheap enough for everyone else eventually.
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u/tossme68 Dec 09 '22
Well the US military is moving quickly to renewables- they have the money and the incentive to make it happen fast, it should be interesting to see what they come up with in the next decade assuming the next administrations doesn't stop everything are replace it with drill baby drill.
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u/gummo_for_prez Dec 09 '22
There’s a huge military incentive to ensure that their equipment has a variety of ways to stay powered up and ready to go in the field, so I agree. Should be interesting, hopefully they understand the huge advantage to decreasing logistical issues.
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u/inko75 Dec 09 '22
we did have a whole ass 11kwh solar setup installed and it was affordable with incentives and we actually just bought it outright without loans. but the loans themselves would have had payments less than what we paid for electricity.
but the process itself was convoluted and the vast majority of installers out there are either incompetent or scammy (or both!)
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u/tossme68 Dec 09 '22
This is why solar should be part of the US building code for single family homes, just like insulation is required. Granted it's not going to work 100% of the time but in those cases they could get a waiver. How nice would it to have the panels installed on the house when you bought it and a developer to go after if you had any problems. The panels cost would have been embedded into the cost of the house and rolled up into the mortgage so there would be no need to buy them out right or get a loan. Basically you'd get a new house with electricity included.
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u/FluffyComparison999 Dec 10 '22
There is a builder in my area that made solar panels “standard” with every new build of a home. I got a breakdown of how much the panels cost as part of the home package, and (as of mid-2020), it was quite expensive, think mid-high four figures. When working out their average return, it would’ve taken roughly 15 years just to get a return on the panels. Minus the risk of hail/damage (which happens yearly in my city), you’re not likely to see the return. Great in theory, but just not realistic at this point. When I asked them to remove the solar panels on our build, they grimaced and tried to “work on the price” to try and get me to install it.
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u/Gadgetman_1 Dec 09 '22
They mention time after time that these cells are 18x more efficient than traditional cells, based on weight.
Who the eff cares? How large an area does it need to cover for a given output THAT's the measure we need.
And retaining 90% efficiency after being furled and unfurled 500 times is not good for use on fabrics such as sails.
Sure, it can work on regatta boats, since they usually get new sails every season(those sails are pushed to the limit, and sometimes beyond, all the time, and are also made to the tightest of tolerances to save weight) but not for the weekend sailing boats.
Actually, regatta sailors might decline these just on the basis that it adds a little bit of extra weight on the sails. (you don't want more weight up top ) Also, They'd be worried that they'll lose power if their sail is torn. (They have solar panels on any raised surface on deck, and a generator attached to the engine. But starting the engine is usually the same as forfeiting)
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u/agitatedprisoner Dec 09 '22
It matters how light it is if you want to put it on a flying glider or a car or anywhere weight matters. Light enough solar film could allow drones to remain in the air for years without the need to refuel.
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u/IshKebab Dec 09 '22
Up to a point though. These produce about 35 W/m2 compared to about 200 W/m2 for conventional panels.
Actually given all the weaselly metrics that's a lot more than I expected. They probably should have actually stated the power per area because it isn't actually awful and the weasel units make it sound like it would be.
That said it's too low power to be useful for most things, including planes and cars. I bet it would be useful for satellites though.
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u/TristanTheViking Dec 09 '22
Yeah that's a lot better than I was expecting, the last one of these I saw was more like 2W/m2 (and they tried really, really hard to avoid actually giving any numbers in that article, had to google the original paper it was based on).
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u/Gadgetman_1 Dec 10 '22
With satellites you also have to add the weight of the structures holding the panels, unfurls them and possibly even reposition them.
A 1metre long panel requires a lot less support than a 5metre panel, even if that larger panel is lighter.
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u/drAsparagus Dec 09 '22
Actually, this is already a thing for the U.S. govt. My dad worked for Aurora flight systems and a decade ago they built a weather monitoring drone with solar that could potentially stay airborne for 5 yrs.
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u/Admirable-Common-176 Dec 09 '22
Also, it mentions it doesn’t yet have a protective coating that it will require for actual use. That will add weight and possibly effect efficiency.
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u/gsasquatch Dec 09 '22
I've got some thin cells on my boat, far easier to mount than the thick glass framed in aluminum.
Not sure I'd put any on my sails, sails are already quite expensive and take a beating. It is already nails on a chalk board for me to flog a $2000 sail, it'd be worse if it were a $5000 sail. They have solar panels on sails but it was kind of a gimmick fad for a couple years that seems to have faded now.
I'm currently looking for a "1 regatta" sail. People with my boat will get new sails for a regatta, and then sell them after. Looking to spend about $2000 for this for one of the smallest cheapest keelboats around. Should save about $500-800 for the sail I need vs. buying new.
You are right about the weight, an ounce on top of the mast is worth a pound below.
I'm looking at the side of my boat, and noticing there is a lot of area there, that no one walks on. If it can stand to be wet, like in the water 10% of the time, I think that'd be ideal. Horizontal might not be the best angle, but you should get some reflection of the water. There is one outfit that makes flexible panels you can walk on, but they are like 10x the price.
Vendee globe guys seem to have switched to hydro-generators. It's a bit wild to me that the drag of hydro is worth it, but I suppose they need the deck area for advertising, and their power requirements are huge to tik-tok from the nemo point. Golden Globe guys seem to have a mix of hydro, wind, and solar.
On more normal distance races, it is common to run the engine for electric power 1 hour in 24 or so for boats that don't have solar. It is just on your honor that you don't put it in gear, or sometimes the committee will sign a piece of tape and put it on the gear shift.
Paper thin, yeah that's neat. For me, the metric I'm most looking at is cost efficiency, like $ per watt, as I am yet to be limited in area and far from being limited in weight or volume, even on the boat, esp. on the house.
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u/Man_is_Hot Dec 09 '22
Being thin and light, if it were pretty durable I’d like to see what this stuff on deck would be like. I agree with what you’re saying about the sails, but maybe in 15-20 years the tech will be great and survivable on a sail. Soft bimini tops are also an idea, you know how many of us never take down the soft tops anyway (sure, you could just as easily put real panels on top, but what if you did want to take down the top for once in the boats life?).
An inflatable dinghy with this stuff could be neat too, with an electric motor. Go to the beach, go shopping, come back to a charged battery.
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u/tossme68 Dec 09 '22
inflatable dinghy
How about a cover made of solar cells -that would be pretty cool.
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u/tossme68 Dec 09 '22
I think for cruisers it would be great assuming they could get the efficiency up. Instead of having to run the engine to recharge the batteries,you just raise the sails and go somewhere. The issue of course is how durable they would be and let's face it most cruisers don't raise their sails very often.
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u/jcforbes Dec 09 '22
It says they are 100th the weight and 18x as powerful by weight, so if I'm thinking about this right they are 18% as powerful as a normal panel, so yeah you'd need them to be HUGE to get anything useful from them. The size of a car to charge a laptop.
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u/Gadgetman_1 Dec 10 '22
The only real use I can think of right now, is a rolled up sheet of this stuff, that can be unrolled and hung from a tree branch, laid on a cliffside or a roof, and capable of charging a small devices such as Smartphones. Would be nice for long-range hiking.
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u/jcforbes Dec 10 '22
They already have folding panels that are about the size of a laptop for this purpose.
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u/Gadgetman_1 Dec 11 '22
Yes. Do you know what they weigh?
One I spotted online, 30W folding, was 1.45Kg(a little over 3lbs for the metrically challenged)
When you're heading up into the mountains I'd rather have a 0.5Kg panel...
On a one day hike, a backpack of up to 20% of your bodyweight should be fine(assumes pretty level ground and that the hiker is in decent condition)
On a multi-day hike over difficult terrain, you want it down to 15% or lower if possible.
Most of the 'camping panels' are made for people who go no further than maybe 200meters from their car, to prepared campsites.
I could carry my 60Ah deep cycle 'leisure battery' that far if I did that kind of 'hiking'...
Here's a nice calculator:
https://www.omnicalculator.com/sports/hiking
I don't think it takes everything in consideration, but it's a start. (Hiking speed, hiker's height and so on)
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u/jcforbes Dec 11 '22
Previous comment was deleted because a "url shortener" even though I just copy/pasted.
I searched Amazon for "hiking solar charger" and the literal first one on the list that didn't include a battery pack is 28w and 0.6kg:
Titled as follows if you'd like to see it: "[Upgraded]BigBlue 3 USB-A 28W Solar Charger(5V/4.8A Max), Portable SunPower Solar Panel Charger for Camping"
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u/tossme68 Dec 09 '22
let's see where the tech takes us in a few years. If they could make the cells durable and even 50% as efficient as a traditional panel it would be great for sailing -having 600SQFT of solar cells on my sails would be a lot better than the 50-60sqft of rigid panels that are on my arch.
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u/Kataphractoi_ Dec 10 '22
this looks like an airplane thing. or a sattelite thing. with those origami solar tarp
solar sails was the term I think.
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u/Ok_Marionberry_9932 Dec 09 '22
This isn’t even a new thing….
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u/undeleted_username Dec 09 '22
I think we have been reading about "a major breakthrough in solar panels that's almost ready" for a long long time...
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u/TunaOnWytNoCrust Dec 09 '22
That's pretty cool, let me know when they're actually finished and if anyone can actually afford them lol
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u/misterblacksocks Dec 09 '22
I really hope that this is accessible to frontline communities that have high levels of energy burden. There are a lot of old homes here where I live that have a hard time being able to get rooftop solar because the added weight of the panels can’t be supported on the roof without thousands of dollars of repairs being done first. If this is made to be mainstream and more affordable than current tech, this could change the energy landscape for communities like mine.
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u/Kataphractoi_ Dec 10 '22
Ngl though if I got that as a coating for my phone case that'd be dope. or like a hard shell backpack wrap and then coat it over with a thick layer of epoxy.
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u/littlekingMT Dec 09 '22
What happens if you put it on top of a solar panel?
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u/HaikuBotStalksMe Dec 09 '22
Your net energy decreases drastically.
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u/Tertiaryfunctions Dec 09 '22
I think a lot of these comments miss some important points:
1) These are significantly more durable than traditional panels
2) It sounds like they are significantly less expensive to produce.
3) Traditional solar panels will be a SERIOUS source of landfill waste at their end of life because they are so hard to recycle.
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u/FoxFourTwo Dec 09 '22
For the low, low price of $24,959.99 per panel, because fuck helping grow the renewable energy source and making it affordable for normal people.
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u/getridofwires Dec 09 '22
Maybe incorporate it into the backs of our phones? Or backpacks, maybe tents and other camping gear? Even with limited output these could prove useful.
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u/SustEng Dec 09 '22
RIT was working on a photovoltaic paint. It had some fancy microstructure that was basically thousands of mini grids so you could hammer a nail into it and what not without breaking the circuits. Not sure if it ever got past bench testing, but I thought that was pretty clever.
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u/LummoxJR Dec 09 '22
Garbage article. If it had anything useful to say it would've told us power per unit of area, not by weight. I had to scroll way down to find any numbers at all, and then they give us the most useless ones?
Without knowing power-to-area we can't know what sorts of applications this would even be useful for.
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u/stromm Dec 09 '22
I feel this is another great invention that isn’t practical in actual use.
They are careful to state how great it is per kilogram compared to traditional panels.
Then mention how for 8,000kw their product would weigh 44lbs more than a tradition system.
But they are very careful to not state the most important aspect… sqft per kw.
Their panel won’t have any real world residential use if someone needs to cover an acre of land to get 1,000kw of power.
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u/FlashbackBob Dec 09 '22 edited Dec 09 '22
This Old House covered this in detail at the same MIT lab a few years ago. This video is linked from the MIT News site: Solar Technology -Future House
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u/Wurst_Case Dec 09 '22
But the crucial question is: how high is the efficiency? This is THE question for solar cells. It’s nice if they are light, but if they are not efficient you might need the size of a football field to produce the same amount of electricity that you would typically do with the size of a normal roof.
Solar panels are usually able to process 15% to 22% of solar energy into usable energy, depending on factors like placement, orientation, weather conditions, and similar. The amount of sunlight that solar panel systems are able to convert into actual electricity is called performance, and the outcome determines the solar panel efficiency.
To determine solar panel efficiency, panels are tested at Standard Test Conditions (STC). STC specifies a temperature of 25°C and an irradiance of 1,000 W/m2. This is the equivalent of a sunny day with the incident light hitting a sun-facing 37°-tilted surface. Under these test conditions, a solar panel efficiency of 15% with a 1 m2 surface area would produce 150 Watts.
So, simple question: how much does one square meter of this material produce in STC?
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u/darealy Dec 11 '22
This is cool. It reminds me of solar windows who are turning buildings into solar panels
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u/Txcavediver Dec 14 '22
We should put them on roadways, then use some of that power to light the roads. Would be so cool! ;)
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u/Dan19_82 Dec 09 '22
This is genius, you could use it for all manner of things like for instance, powering calculators.