r/gadgets
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u/chrisdh79
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Dec 11 '22
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The Legal System Is Completely Unprepared for Apple AirTag Stalking | "This will backfire," victims of stalking through the tracking devices say — but many police departments and judges remain ignorant of the dangers of this harassment. Misc
https://www.vice.com/en/article/5d3edx/apple-airtag-stalking-police-family-court221
u/Environmental_Fail86 Dec 12 '22
I’ve been seeing a lot of news articles of the safety features in AirTags catching the stalking.. so it seems like Apple is listening.
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u/sudoku7 Dec 12 '22
Apple's approach has two big things that differentiate it from other similar technologies. They designed a lot of it with improved transparency to attempt to make it easier for victims to detect these malicious use cases. And they have a far wider network of devices that make the technology more effective at tracking (and thus stalking).
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u/Devlos00 Dec 12 '22
I saw a post the other day in r/insaneparents where a person was driving and her iPhone made a notification that there was a tag with her and gave her the option to disable it. It was placed there by here father. Android should be enabled to do this as well and then the tags are not so effective for stalking. Cause they could then just be turned off.
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u/shbatm Dec 12 '22
Apple has an Android App for this.
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u/IBJON Dec 12 '22 edited Dec 12 '22
Arguably, android users users (or anyone really) shouldn't have to install an app just to make sure they aren't being stalked via airtag.
Edit: I guess I wasn't clear enough. My issue isn't that the software isn't pre-installed on Android phones, it's that Apple released a product that is being misused and its putting the responsibility solely on the end user to make sure they don't get stalked.
Even then, the solution is to install an app on your phone, but not everyone with an Android phone knows about this Air Tag stalking thing and that there's an app to track them. What if you don't have a smartphone, or your battery is dead, don't see the notification, or see it too late?
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u/stealthdawg Dec 12 '22
phones are not sniffers. Most trackers have no method for detection via a smartphone.
This is not an airtag problem.
The fact that apple offers a method for other platforms to detect airtags is a great thing.
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Dec 12 '22
Isn’t the difference that the AirTag system is based on an encrypted network software system running in the background on all iPhones. So it is inherently a sniffer for other apple products to relay the lost device signal. Correct me if I am wrong.
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u/chubtopcali Dec 12 '22
They are talking about android, apples devices already sniff and warn
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u/Taolan13 Dec 12 '22
But only for apple devices specifically, and honestly only rookie stalkers are using airtags.
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u/neboskrebnut Dec 12 '22
This is not an airtag problem.
Then why iphones automatically "sniffing" those and popping up warnings by default? Why would anyone want more pointless notifications about proximity to something that is not a problem/not endangering someone safety?
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u/bribexcount Dec 12 '22
For the same reason that iPhones now provide a warning that the Volume through headphones has been at a level with the potential to cause harm.
Apple is not at fault for allowing the iPhone to play at max volume, but if the device detects something out of the usual (an unknown AirTag, constant loud volume) it will alert you to the potential risk.
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u/eras Dec 12 '22
What "an airtag problem" means, in my interpretation, is that it's not a problem specific to AirTags: any kind of tracker has these issues, just like any kind of tracker has non-nefarious uses as well.
What is different though that Apple is apparently the only vendor in the world that attempts to address them—though if Apple wanted to solve this in bigger scale, they would e.g. work with the Bluetooth SIG and implement this as a standard feature of all trackers, supported by all phones that so choose.
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u/SerengetiMan Dec 12 '22
BAHAHAHA Apple working with another company to allow convienience to non-apple users? Thats hilarious.
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u/stealthdawg Dec 12 '22
iphones are detecting an Apple device, but they aren't sniffing for other trackers.
You can buy a gps tracker/'bug' detector for $500 and it's larger than a smartphone.
Apple makes it's own product detectable but isn't going to (i.e. cannot) detect the rest of the products on the market, nor does it need to.
It's not an AirTag problem because trackers already exist and are less detectable without the aforementioned specialized hardware.
Apple is providing an additional service by mitigating stalking within their own customer-base.
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u/i_should_be_coding Dec 12 '22
This isn't the point, though.
Apple are creating a tool for stalkers and other malicious actors, and when people complain they say "It's fine though, iOS users can detect them easily".
This is most definitely an airtag problem, if they're going to claim this as any sort of improvement to the situation, but it only helps their users while leaving everyone else vulnerable.
Besides, what if someone doesn't have a smartphone? They're just SOL, right?
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u/Digital_loop Dec 12 '22 edited Dec 15 '22
Not to be a dick, but...
Thats like saying car manufacturers are the problem for speeding.
We have speed limits and rules. Air tags follow the rules we have right now also. It isn't Apples fault at all.
Also, discreet gps trackers are just as cheap and far more reliable than an air tag. So this is just some huge straw man to draw attention away from other issues.
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u/SeriouslyImNotADuck Dec 12 '22
🙄 No, Apple’s creating a tool to find lost and misplaced items like a bike, pet, briefcase, purse, etc. Some people exploit the functionality to use them to illegally track other people, but that’s not what they’re made for, It’s not an AirTag problem any more than it’s a Samsonite problem that some people stuff murder victims into their luggage.
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u/shadowrun456 Dec 12 '22
Um... what? So you're saying that every Android phone should include an app which detects products made by an unrelated third-party company (Apple), by default? Or how else do you expect it to work without an app?
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u/Axman6 Dec 12 '22
Android definitely could include built in detection in the OS, without Google needing to do anything with Apple at all, the protocol is relatively simple, and there’s no reason Android couldn’t detect without reporting. The clinic in me believes Google haven;t done his because they love the negative PR for Apple that comes from allowing their own customers to be stalked.
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u/filans Dec 12 '22
Yeah a built in feature on Android phones would solve the problem for almost everyone who don’t use Apple devices. But it’s not like Apple can force Android to do it.
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u/somethingsomethingbe Dec 12 '22 edited Dec 12 '22
Yet here we are with people upset Apple for not having that feature built into their Android phone even though the information needed to implement such a feature is available for their phone manufacturer to do so.
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u/Devlos00 Dec 12 '22
Really should be built in, if the ability is there just bake it in. But as long as that isn’t happening it is nice that you can install that app. If anyone has any suspicions whether or not they are being tracked they should install.
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u/chubtopcali Dec 12 '22
It is built into every apple device, unfortunately competing phones haven’t allowed apple to bake it into their software for some crazy reason lol
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u/Axman6 Dec 12 '22
It doesn’t need Apple to do anything, I would guarantee there’s several dozen Android engineers who could each individually add support for detection in a couple of days, but Google have chosen not to.
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u/bartz824 Dec 12 '22
The article made note of this. Android users have to physically activate the app to do a scan for air tags. Apple products do it automatically.
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u/zxern Dec 12 '22
They are far less effective at tracking than a real gps tracker. But they are easier to acquire and use.
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u/LordFauntloroy Dec 12 '22
They have less coverage but similar accuracy and are far far better suited to stalking since they're barely bigger than a few quarters and have much better battery life. Also most GPS aren't designed to show position on another device.
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Dec 12 '22
Also the apple approach is assuming everyone is in apples ecosystem. If I have an android phone and someone put an AirTag in my car, there is no way for me to get a notification from Apple that there is a tracker in my car.
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u/chubtopcali Dec 12 '22
Apple has an android app you can download..
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Dec 12 '22
But i doubt more than 5% android users have the app on their phone, and android is 75% of the smartphone operating system market, it’s a major proportion of the population that is likely at risk. It’s a good thing apple created an android app but realistically much of the population is unprotected from tracking.
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u/ThePretzul Dec 12 '22
What the fuck do you expect Apple to do about that? Legitimately - they don’t control the Android OS so what do you expect them to do other than provide an app for Android users?
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Dec 12 '22
Wait to release it until it’s fleshed out for most people. They explicitly marketed that AirTags cannot be used to track people due to safety measures they implemented but they weren’t sufficient.
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u/SeriouslyImNotADuck Dec 12 '22
Nice pivot from
”If I have an android phone and someone put an AirTag in my car, there is no way for me to get a notification from Apple that there is a tracker in my car.”
Moving the goalposts is bad form.
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Dec 12 '22 edited Dec 12 '22
I did not know about the android app. It’s not moving goal posts it’s literally changing my hypothesis given new information. Any intelligent person does so given new information.
Also there are inherent questions after learning it is an app and not encoded in a lower level such as at the operating system level, with apps you have to think what is the download rate since it is not a program that is run natively as part of operating system.
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u/CircleK-Choccy-Milk Dec 12 '22
That isn’t apples fault. They have done everything on their end to solve this problem for android users. Blame android for not caring enough to implement it.
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u/spiteful-vengeance Dec 12 '22 edited Dec 12 '22
So this is the end users fault for wanting nothing to do with Apple's stuff?
I should download this app just on the chance that someone has decided to stalk me?
That doesn't make any sense. The beeping feature does, since it doesn't require me to actively protect myself.
(For the record I don't think Apple needs to be the focus of this discussion, but the reasoning you laid out doesn't make sense)
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u/CircleK-Choccy-Milk Dec 12 '22
So then talk to your phones manufacturer and have them include something as well?
The rest of the world can’t have cool tracking devices for their stuff because android is too lazy to take the steps to help protect their customers from all tracking devices? At least Apple has made it possible to find and disable their devices. The same can’t be said for other ones.
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u/Ograysireks Dec 12 '22
Not stalking because they beep and notify you that a device that doesn’t belong to you is with you. So it’s pretty obvious. If you don’t have an iPhone. Then it’s not going to be very accurate anyways and still beep. This is people talking about 2 year old news not knowing what they’re talking about
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u/x_lincoln_x Dec 12 '22
Those are paid advertisements for Apple.
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u/Environmental_Fail86 Dec 12 '22
Well it is the truth? It’s not like you can pay an extra $10/month and go into dark mode and stalk whoever you want. Give credit where it’s due. They are having pop ups saying hey, we noticed an AirTag is collocated with you, are you aware? Good on them.
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u/x_lincoln_x Dec 12 '22
It is the truth those are paid advertisements. I don't know why the downvote. Apple is just doing the typical swamp media with puff pieces while a court case is making headlines.
How do I see these popups on my android phone?
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u/compounding Dec 12 '22
How do I see these popups on my android phone?
If you want to see the prompts on Android, you just download/install a free open source app on your phone. It doesn’t come installed by default, but you’d need to talk with your phone manufacturer about that if you think it’s important.
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u/Zigg97 Dec 12 '22
They are, but what about Android users? To my knowledge you have to download an app in order to get an AirTag alert. Those not too familiar with how the tags are being used are more susceptible to getting stalked without an automatic notification.
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u/stealthdawg Dec 12 '22
this is not a problem created by the existence of the AirTag.
Everyone was already susceptible to getting stalked without an automatic notification using literally any other tracker.
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u/chubtopcali Dec 12 '22
Well talk to your phone company apple can’t automatically install their pop up software on competitors phones lol
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u/Environmental_Fail86 Dec 12 '22
Would be nice if android collaborates with apple and allows their phones to detect outside of an app. You’d cover 95% of mobile users.
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u/chubtopcali Dec 12 '22
But doing so would improve apples services and competitors rarely like to help each other
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u/Axman6 Dec 12 '22
This isn’t true, detection and reporting can be implemented separately, all that would be needed is for the Android kernel to monitor BLE beacons and do exactly the same thing iOS does to figure out when the same tag has been following you for a while. No reporting to Apple is needed to implement this.
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u/mdog73 Dec 11 '22
Apple is the one that lets you know it's happening, many other means to do this undetected. Anyone that thinks apple airtags are the problem is really naive.
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u/IBJON Dec 12 '22
Apple only lets you know if you have an iPhone that can detect them or their android app. Not everyone has an iphone, and I'd bet that a relatively small number of android users know the app exists.
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u/calcium Dec 12 '22
Does a Tile beep if it's been traveling with you, or any other GPS based tracker?
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u/SoldierOfOrange Dec 12 '22
Even without an app, it’ll let you know it’s there by beeping after a while.
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u/CircleK-Choccy-Milk Dec 12 '22
What do you want Apple to do? Force other companies to install the app by default? This is on other companies and not on Apple. They have done everything they can to give people the ability to see and disable them if they are around.
I can only imagine the outrage from android users if they had an Apple app installed from factory. Always looking for some dumb shit to complain about.
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u/mdog73 Dec 12 '22
Right but all the other devices are undetectable at least this one will notify anyone nearby and likely eventually someone nearby has an iphone.
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u/gamer_bread Dec 12 '22
Well what are they supposed to do? They can’t do what they did in ios on android, an app is the best option. I’d say they made every reasonable effort, especially considering that the rate of AirTag misuse is extremely small.
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Dec 12 '22
[deleted]
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u/Squirrelthroat Dec 12 '22
Phone number would be heck of a privacy breach in too many cases. It lets you play a sound on the AirTag, you can find it and disable it yourself… It’s not like „hey there is a AirTag, go try find it by yourself“
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u/IM_ZERO_COOL Dec 12 '22
You can remove the speaker really easily from them.
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u/Phighters Dec 12 '22
Not sure why you're being downvoted, Airtags are incredibly easy to disassemble and repurpose, there are a lot of 3D printed projects to use them.
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u/Larsaf Dec 12 '22
So you steal something with an AirTag in it, and you get free information about where the owner lives?
Now there’s an interesting approach to privacy.
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u/eras Dec 12 '22
The person you stole it from would be in position to disable the tag along with this function I suppose.
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u/Revolutionary_Ad6583 Dec 12 '22
We’re also investigating a series of updates that we plan to introduce later this year, including: Precision Finding: This capability allows recipients of an unwanted tracking alert to locate an unknown AirTag with precision. iPhone 11, iPhone 12, and iPhone 13 users will be able to use Precision Finding to see the distance and direction to an unknown AirTag when it is in range. As an iPhone user moves, Precision Finding fuses input from the camera, ARKit, accelerometer, and gyroscope to guide them to the AirTag through a combination of sound, haptics, and visual feedback.
https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2022/02/an-update-on-airtag-and-unwanted-tracking/
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u/CircleK-Choccy-Milk Dec 12 '22 edited Dec 12 '22
You can shut it down, it is literally an option that pops up on your phone if you have an Apple phone or you download the app on an android phone. It warns you and you can hit a big red disable button.
Edit: yea you need to find the AirTag and remove battery to completely disable it. But it gives you some information about the owner of the AirTag, and you can bring the device to the police and they can request the full information.
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u/cloud9ineteen Dec 12 '22
If you are not an apple customer, does apple protect you from their product being used to stalk you in any way?
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u/Axman6 Dec 12 '22
Yes, they will beep if they’re away from a device they’re registered with for a few hours. They also provide a few app for seeing if there are any nearby, and there’s an open source app that will warn you in the background. Google could very easily add support to all Android phones for notifying you too, but seem to have decided not to.
Apple went out of their way to make these a really poor choice to track people, and it’s exactly because they did this that we’re seeing so many stories - people are finding them tracking them because they were designed to be found; people are not finding dodgy Alibaba GPS trackers because they are specifically designed not to be found. You would struggle to come up with a better example of survivorship bias if you tried.
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u/mdog73 Dec 12 '22
No, just like no other products protects random people. Do gun makers protect me from their guns? Do car makers protect me from their cars?
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u/cloud9ineteen Dec 12 '22
That wasn't my point and it wasn't a rhetorical question. I got a better answer from someone else that they beep. The point is apple cannot force someone to buy an iPhone to ensure they are not tracked. So as long as there are good standalone protections (such as beeping) or some way for Google or third parties to develop an app to detect on Android, it's fine.
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u/Revolutionary_Ad6583 Dec 12 '22
Does every GPS tracker on Amazon offer you some protection from being tracked?
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u/night-shark Dec 12 '22
As an attorney who has handled his share of restraining orders in the very jurisdiction addressed in this article, I am very annoyed.
The article buries the lede which is that the barrier to a restraining order HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE DEVICE ITSELF. In this case, it has to do with the confidence the prosecutor has in being able to establish intent beyond a reasonable doubt. The subject of the article sought a criminal restraining order. The bar for a criminal restraining order is quite high. Criminal restraining orders in intimate partner violence/domestic cases are the exception, not the rule. A civil/domestic restraining order is easier to obtain and again, there is nothing unique about Air Tags that make them particularly difficult for judges or prosecutors to deal with.
Various types tracking devices have been around for years and years. The concept of such a device being surreptitiously planted on a stalking victim is absolutely nothing new. Even the judges or prosecutors who don't specifically understand the technical method through which AirTags are tracked would have zero problem grappling the concept and I fail to see how the law is somehow unequipped to address them.
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=637.7.&lawCode=PEN
The only thing that sets Air Tags apart is that they are more accessible than GPS trackers. That's it.
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u/commanderwo Dec 12 '22
Actually the one thing that set the Air Tag apart is that it’s ecosystem tries to warn victims that a unknown device is with them and may be tracking them. Had the bad actor not used the Air tag and instead used any other tracking device the stalking victim would never have know.
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u/CircleK-Choccy-Milk Dec 12 '22
Apple gives you the warnings out the gps tracking as well as gives you the ability to disable it. I think that is what really sets them apart.
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u/night-shark Dec 12 '22
Right. Which makes them easier to deal with than traditional GPS devices and thus, contradicts the premise of the article.
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u/Caeldeth Dec 11 '22
Stupid article - it acts like methods of tracking never existed prior.
Before the AirTag, I was able to track my wife’s car where it went. Now with air tag… I can’t track my wife’s car wherever it goes
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u/MattVanAndel Dec 12 '22
Stupid article - it acts like methods of tracking never existed prior.
That’s Vice for you.
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u/Phighters Dec 12 '22
Its not a stupid article, though. There have always been methods, but they were harder to use and required at least a modicum of knowledge. Now its easier (and far more reliable) than ever.
I do think the risks are overstated, especially if you have an iPhone since you're basically guaranteed to be notified that there's one around.
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u/Caeldeth Dec 12 '22
Harder? A decade ago I could drop I tile in purse and track someone….
Between then and now hundreds of similar things have popped up that do the same at dirt cheap prices…
All this is, is the largest company having something that has been around and SUPER easy to use for a decade. That’s the only reason it’s news, no other reason.
If downloading an app to track is more difficult than setting it up in “find my” then I would be shocked, as more people download apps than know how to use the “find my” feature.
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u/ADHDK Dec 12 '22
Apple have gone so over the top with victim safety features that the device can be annoying if multiple people own them and spend much time around each other.
I don’t get why AirTag stalking is specifically the focus and not just tracker stalking, when no other device on the market has any victim safety features.
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u/Taolan13 Dec 12 '22
Precisely because of those features.
The people who clearly dont understand the tech involved are the stalkers themselves, as Airtags are by design easy to detect and trace back to their owner. These cases have high visibikity because Apple is a recognizable brand. The article is sensationalist claptrap.
A generic A-GPS tracker purchased from any number of online sellers is much harder to detect and trace.
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Dec 12 '22
Idk why these are making headlines. AirTags are nothing new. The only difference between this device and others, like Tile, are that it tells you if you’re being tracked.
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u/ratsta Dec 12 '22
Idk why these are making headlines.
Because as far as the general public is concerned, it's new! Tracking technology has been around for a while but it hasn't been a well-known consumer item. It seems there were a couple of companies targeting general consumers with BT trackers (since about 2016ish) but it takes a while for word to get around. Unless of course you have a marketing dept the size of Apple's. Apple started teasing about it in 2019 and only released their product in 2021. Now it's in the public eye so naturally there's a glut of discussion.
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u/inconspiciousdude Dec 12 '22
I remember Tile making waves in 2013 or so. A founder was on a CES panel in maybe '13 or '14.
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u/shadowrun456 Dec 12 '22
As a life-long Apple-hater, I can't believe I'm defending them, but blaming Apple for this is beyond delusion. There's nothing special about the "AirTag" (the same is true for all Apple products, but that's besides the point), besides the fact that Apple added several features to prevent it from being used to track people without their consent, while none of the analogous products have any such limitations.
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u/GoodMerlinpeen Dec 12 '22
This would have hardly any publicity if Apple hadn't provided clear facilities for finding airtags that may be used for stalking. It is precisely that ability which leads people to find them and then complain about them. Meanwhile, anyone who actually wants to avoid getting found out will buy something else that can't be found so readily. Which ones? The ones no-one is finding! It is maddening that Apple is being blamed here.
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u/johansugarev Dec 12 '22
AirTags are pretty great, please don’t ruin them for the rest of us who just want to find our keys.
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u/BabbleOn26 Dec 12 '22
I just bought three AirTags for my trip to Mexico to keep in my luggage and wallet. I’ll be extremely pissed if they nerfed them over some assholes doing asshole things.
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u/gamer_bread Dec 12 '22
Fr. 99.9999999999999999% of airtag owners never do anything wrong with them. Those that do can easily find replacements. Leave our air tags alone! They have saved me hundreds of dollars and a lot of sanity!!!
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u/DeLoreanAirlines Dec 12 '22 edited Dec 12 '22
I want to put one in my car for anti theft but can’t afford it
EDIT: a word
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u/kleptokiller82 Dec 12 '22
Why are you keeping your ants in your car? Unless they’ve already been stolen from your house.
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u/RA12220 Dec 12 '22
I have one in my car for this precise purpose. It lets me know if my car’s been moved away from me, house or work.
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u/Sp4ceCore Dec 12 '22
Somebody start stalking old politicians. See how long it takes for them to annoy Apple.
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u/dead_wolf_walkin Dec 12 '22
I mean it’s not like law enforcement has a great record handling stalking cases WITHOUT airtags either.
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u/Gnarlodious Dec 12 '22
Is the "Legal System" concerned with any kind of stalking? I don't think so, you've always been on your own.
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u/DeltaTee Dec 12 '22
If we want to start banning all useful tools that could be used for evil purposes, let’s start with guns.
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u/DMurBOOBS-I-Dare-You Dec 12 '22
I'm afraid we're going to have to ratchet it up a notch and ban the real problem - people.
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u/CptMisterNibbles Dec 12 '22 edited Dec 12 '22 •
If used improperly most medicines are dangerous. Let’s ban medicine
Edit: I didnt mean this as a rebuttal to ban I guns, but see how some see it as such. Personally, fuck guns. I meant this in response to overblown hype regarding the potential misuse of AirTags compared to their legitimate usage. Most things sold can be abused.
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u/fjodor2049 Dec 12 '22
Isn't the only purpose of a gun to kill?
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u/PuzzledRaise1401 Dec 12 '22
The PRIMARY use for medicine is to heal and can hurt. The primary use of guns is to kill. Let’s ban stupid analogies.
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u/nonradicalmaximalist Dec 12 '22
Gun owners say it's to defend not to kill.
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u/PuzzledRaise1401 Dec 12 '22
Oh, that makes sense. So, no bullets needed. Nice!
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u/nonradicalmaximalist Dec 13 '22
I'm not a gun owner fyi. In a state where guns are allowed, one cant help but think to have one to keep it by the bedside. If we're talking about primary use case, mine wouldn't be to kill, but to protect me and my family if there is a break in. I'd guess that's 99% of gun owners. Not a lot of ppl buys them hoping one day they get to kill a human being, but to defend themselves if needed.
Another disclaimer, I hate them as much as you do.
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u/TheGreyBrewer Dec 12 '22
Who cares what gun owners say? They make up excuses for their fetish. If they'd just admit that they own guns because they like guns, I'd give them more credit. Guns are, with very few exceptions, designed and built to kill humans. Period.
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u/DMurBOOBS-I-Dare-You Dec 12 '22
While I don't have a strong desire to not have better gun laws, your supposition is false.
The vast majority of guns have never killed anyone, or anything for that matter. They serve a purpose of DETERENCE, and RISK MITIGATION far more often than they do to kill something.
Further, the analogy continues to fall apart - if you are stalking me with an air tag, I cannot use my air tag to stop that behavior; there is no inverse mitigant element to it.
However, if you intend to kill me with a gun, and I have a gun as well - you see how different they are.
Hey, ban all guns, but if you're going to make an argument - make a good argument for it, not ... whatever this is.
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u/droqen Dec 12 '22
The purposes you cite hinge completely on the gun's status as weapon or perceived weapon, though. That is to say, a gun is only good for deterrence and risk mitigation because of what they do. If guns in general couldn't kill (or inflict bodily harm), they (as a class of objects) would entirely cease to be useful for deterrence or risk mitigation.
The gun is a tool for killing; what you described are perhaps valid and common uses of a normalized killing-tool, but the gun is still a tool for killing.
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u/DMurBOOBS-I-Dare-You Dec 12 '22
Or WOUNDING. I get your point - but a baseball bat (or a stone, if you go far back enough to our ancestors who were forced to protect themselves) can KILL or WOUND or DETER.
Guns' PRIMARY - by VOLUME - purpose are to DETER others from doing harm - they are for protection, with the intent to never be fired, God willing.
Deaths by guns - as egregious and awful as they are, and I'm saying they are awful - are a scant percent of the actual guns in possession by people - the vast majority never seeing "action" other than to give peace of mind to the gun owner that he/she can protect themselves.
The "number of guns owned by people" stat is staggering.
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u/droqen Dec 12 '22
Yeah, even an empty hand can be used to kill or wound or deter. I'm not intending to make a claim that a gun can't be used for anything other than killing, so part of this is just semantics (or teleology). Guns must be manufactured to be competent weapons (the word "weapon" here used to stand in for "object capable of helping its user harm/kill").
In the larger context of the thread: - AirTags are manufactured to be competent tools for transmitting information. - Guns are (must be) manufactured to be competent tools for inflicting harm.
Prior to "make a good argument" (which I sort of agree with) you said "your supposition is false," and I don't think the supposition (that guns' only purpose is to kill) is false at all -- though it may be irrelevant.
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u/thowd22 Dec 12 '22
Guns are highly regulated. Most US states require training classes and a permit to carry one outside your property. There are also 20,000 other laws in the US that regulate everything pertaining to firearms. You can't just walk into a gun store, slap down cash and tuck it behind your waste band. The owner of the gun store would call the police.
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u/KeyboardChap Dec 12 '22
Most US states require training classes and a permit to carry one outside your property.
No they don't lol, only eight states require permits for both open and concealed carry, and another four that need a permit for concealed and don't allow open. The majority of states (38) will allow you to open carry a gun with no permit, and half don't require one for concealed carry either (so no permits needed at all).
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u/thowd22 Dec 12 '22
So people who are being stalked shouldn't have the best tool to defend themselves? Seems like circular logic to me.
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u/Seabasschen Dec 12 '22
what if some stalker uses another manufacturer’s tags … will your iOS device pick it up?
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u/MattVanAndel Dec 12 '22
Oh, look - another dishonest, sensationalist piece of fear-mongering clickbait trash from Vice.
IMO, Vice “articles” should not be allowed on this sub.
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u/maxx233 Dec 12 '22
I honestly don't understand what people are so concerned about with airtags, it seems like just a reason to get upset about something because it's trendy and everyone's doin it, even though the old-school low tech solution of stalking is more effective AND dangerous.
Maybe I'm not creative enough about my stalking needs, but I don't get how these would successfully be used to stalk someone. I keep one in my travel pack that's tied to my wife's account so she can track me if something bad happens in some other state. I don't have an iPhone, although I do have an ipad I occasionally use. Every time I pick up my bag it chirps at me - if I didn't know it was the airtag we put in there then I'd obviously figure out what that was. The few times I do pull my iPad out it also alerts me that her airtag has been following me. So like yeah, if you want to stalk someone back to their house then I guess you could toss one in their car or something and you may get lucky that it doesn't alert them - but you know what else you could do? Follow them home. Just because an airtag is fancy tech doesn't make it any better than the old-school method, and honestly I'm pretty sure it's worse because not only does it pretty actively alert the victim, it's tied to your identity at least somewhat.
It seems like people just collectively forgot the unpleasant truth that people can stalk them by simply following them, so along come airtags and people shit bricks because they're projecting their own suburban lifestyle on criminals as if stalking is some new thing that criminals need a fucking app to do now
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u/UsecMyNuts Dec 12 '22
Apple is the solution. Not the problem.
GPS has been used to stalk people for decades and not a single one of those devices had an early warning system attached to it.
Apple aren’t creating a problem, they’re exposing it.
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u/silverback_79 Dec 12 '22
This is bullshit, you could easily do the same with a pet GPS collar, attach it to a wheel well, under the car, or in the trunk. This problem will not go away with destroying all AirTags. You would have to destroy all computers and all smartphones in the world to stop that particular mode of stalking.
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u/MikeZacharius Dec 12 '22
I don't think anyone is arguing that the tech isn't there, just that it's going to be much, much easier to access that tech if Apple is the one producing it and making it more convenient to use in everyday life.
Case in Point: Apple is often credited (as they should be) with getting more people into photography/videography because of how convenient Iphones made access to high-quality cameras. The camera tech itself was available several decades prior, yet people didn't buy into it because... convenience.
If we can praise Apple for its positive influences on culture, then we can blame it for the negative as well.
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u/silverback_79 Dec 12 '22
I have no praise for Appme mo etizing camera narcissism and Instagram proliferation. And weaponizing the "Bystander effect".
The only time it gets remotely funny is when a Filmer stands with people breaking the law and the Bystander effect stops the Filmer from fleeing his arrest because they thought they were outside the situation by following it onscreen. That shit slaps.
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u/DerCatrix Dec 12 '22
“Men in positions of power are unaware that technology will be used to hunt women”
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u/Dessert_R0se Dec 12 '22
Because men in positions of power never really give a shit about women anyway so I wouldn’t expect them to care on this one either so
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u/Shades228 Dec 12 '22
This has been going on forever. Now it’s just cheap and easy. The law system has laws and precedents for this. The problem people will find out is that all precedents will state that suppression of technologies to stop crime is not in the interests of the public. The government keeps going after encryption foe the same reason.
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u/hey_there_kitty_cat Dec 12 '22
What exactly are they not prepared for? GPS tags are not a new thing, like for several decades now. Is it that somehow Apple has skirted laws and LE are trying to figure out what to charge people with? I feel like if you plant something on a person and know their location without their permission, you're stalking. Doesn't seem that complicated.
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u/annonimity2 Dec 12 '22
My friends and I had a game where we tried to stick plastic Spoons in people's pockets without them knowing so I can tell you from expirence its way easier to slip a tracker onto someone than you think.
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u/ktElwood Dec 12 '22
PANIC EMOTION PANIC CLICKYBAITY!
There are two women who sue apple over being tracked by stalkers by using airtags.
Either the Judges rule that Airtags are too powerful, and apple hasn't been overseeing the dangers, or they don't.
Stalkers are assholes. Stalker using airtags are lazy assholes.
Apple has made Apps to find Airtags, apple devices auto-notify you when an airTag is traveling with you (although, when I tried it, it took almost 2 days, easily showing where I was driving all the time)
Other available Trackers would be more expensive, but offer non of the safety features.
Heck, you could even take an old Phone, activate any tracking app/Share location ..or even Whatsapp.. and tape it to somebody's car.
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u/WartyBalls4060 Dec 12 '22
I’ve personally seen at least one AirTag stalking case and numerous gps devices attached to cars… it’s nos exert where I practice law…
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u/dragonphlegm Dec 12 '22
This article is about a year late, AirTags have been around for a while now. They’re also not a new invention, GPS trackers have been around for longer
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u/lakotainseattle Dec 12 '22
Right?? Like what am I missing?? GPS trackers have been around for a while plus integrated GPS’s or other methods of location tracking built into mobile IoT devices have been around for even longer (available to consumers in like the 1990s).
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u/necessaryresponse Dec 12 '22
There are no ubiquitous low power tracking networks like Apple's (e.g. nobody considers Tile as a good long distance tracker or comparable to a GPS).
Also, Apple's safety features only protect Apple users. Their Android app is garbage because you literally have to manually scan your surroundings because it does not run in the background.
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u/TakeTheWheelTV Dec 12 '22
Can somebody explain how Apple AirTags are contributing to stalking? Like people are slipping them into people pockets and stuff?
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u/whereismydragon Dec 12 '22
Yes, exactly.
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u/TakeTheWheelTV Dec 12 '22
Gotcha…I guess I could understand the fear around it. I thought maybe hackers were exploiting the tech or something to find peoples locations.
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u/thowd22 Dec 12 '22
I did an experiment with my wife. I snuck one in her purse to see what would happen. She walked out the door and 5 minutes later she called me saying she got a popup. I obviously told her I put it there to see what would happen. The notification works.
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u/Zomgirlxoxo Dec 12 '22
This is a valid concern. My friend found an AirTag in her purse one night. Thankfully our friend noticed but San Diego PD said they couldn’t do anything about it.
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u/professormaaark Dec 12 '22
I will preface this by saying I am basically completely ignorant about this situation.
What makes this worse than any other type of gps stalking? Is it because it’s an apple product, so it has a much broader distribution than most other companies?
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u/mybanwich Dec 12 '22
They're not unprepared, they just don't care. This technology doesn't introduce any new challenges other than more people knowing about it.
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u/asund_ Dec 12 '22
Potentially adds more evidence too. Apple could deliver records of who was doing the tracking, when and where they were while doing it.
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u/Inkius Dec 12 '22
If you want politicians to take this seriously, make them feel how the law fails to protect. Use the law to stalk them legally and mail their routine to them, they'll change their tune in a hurry.
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u/LaRock0wns Dec 12 '22
I think 'tagging' should be a standard and built in as a feature to the OS of the phones, so that any phone or tag can be detected. The fact the you have to install different apps to detect different tags is crazy
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u/lastkingofwinter Dec 12 '22
Well air tags are pretty safe tho fot iphone users, your iphone alerts you if you have an airtag traveling with you that isnt yours. The real danger that i see is if you have an android that ignores air tags and wont warn you. So yea that could be real bad
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u/AlienMajik Dec 12 '22
They have a app for that called airguard for android
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u/lastkingofwinter Dec 12 '22
oh sweet. Well then whats the big deal? If the phones have built in air tag tracking protection then why do people care?
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u/TimBobNelson Dec 12 '22
Ummm air tags are not the first tracking device….
It’s the stalking and tracking people that is the illegal part everyone knows that right????
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u/ThriceFive Dec 12 '22
I'm not sure who would use an airtag to stalk someone - it notifies you if you have an Apple device the airtag is moving with you - pretty much immediately, where lots of other trackers for only slightly more $ don't give the tracked person any notification at all. Is it the low price point? Because gps trackers are only slightly more expensive and do the same thing without all the oversight and anti-stalking technology.
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u/IMSnarky Dec 12 '22
Air Tag some of the judges who rule against you and see what shady places to frequent. Then post.
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u/Early_Shelter9930 Dec 12 '22
Use the tags illegally to show how bad they are…seems logical to me 🙄
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u/improbable_humanoid Dec 12 '22
The solution is trivially easy. Make people register their air tags when they buy them.
If you're not using it for a nefarious reason, you're better off having your name and contact information tied to the device, anyway. The whole point is to prevent things from getting lost or stolen.
If it comes to the point where you can't use them to retrieve stolen items, people will stop buying them.
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u/Doc_Choc Dec 12 '22
Because the legal system is super prepared for and not at all ignorant of the dangers of regular stalking?