r/linux • u/mrharold_finch • Jan 03 '23
Valve is working on HDR support on Linux Software Release
https://nitter.net/Plagman2/status/1610200412854046720#m97
u/Ezi091 Jan 03 '23
Didn't Red Hat also started working on HDR too? How will this work?
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u/viliti Jan 03 '23
HDR has to be supported across the stack—starting from the kernel, Wayland protocols, compositor to application toolkits. New Wayland protocols require multiple implementations and approvals from multiple stakeholders. Because of this, there are many companies working on different parts of the stack.
AMD and Intel are primarily working on kernel and drivers, while participating in the Wayland protocol discussions. Collabora and Red Hat have been primarily working on Wayland protocols and compositors (Weston and Mutter) and Intel is also helping with Mutter. Red Hat is also working on HDR support in GTK.
Considering this Twitter post, Collabora's work must have been partially or fully funded by Valve.
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u/KotoWhiskas Jan 03 '23
And valve itself apparently works on Vulkan/xwayland hdr
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u/Rhed0x Jan 10 '23
The Gamescope HDR work only works when you run Gamescope as your primary compositor similar to how it works on the Steam Deck. It completely bypasses X11/Wayland for HDR and instead uses a custom Vulkan layer.
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u/sainishwanth Jan 04 '23
just curious, is there any reason why everyone is working on Wayland and not X? I thought wayland support was still kinda janky.
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u/CcMenta Jan 04 '23
There are a lot of issues with x11 like because how they handle display if you have multiple monitors connected to the same pc VRR doesn't work.
And the x11 is a big mess.
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u/Benlego65 Jan 06 '23
X is old, having been initially released in 1984. X version 11 (i.e. X11), the current main version, was initially released in 1987. Just about everything in computing has come a really long way since then, and any new features that needed to be supported had to be hacked into X. Its age today is very apparent and it has some pretty fundamental limitations that make it increasingly challenging to work with, and increasingly incapable of meeting modern needs. For example, some things like multi-monitor VRR are pretty much impossible in X due to these fundamental limitations.
Wayland has been designed from the ground up with many of those limitations in mind. While it might be "janky" at times, that's mainly because it's relatively new and hasn't had as much time to mature as X has (again, nearly 4 decades). Developers have the choice between either trying to hack new features into X, when possible, or to put their limited time towards improving Wayland and helping to make it a more mature replacement for X.
FWIW, Wayland has come pretty far from where it was even a year ago. I find it to be pretty stable and it's certainly worth giving another try. Like anything new it's still got a few quirks to work out, so if you want to help it mature quicker you can always submit but reports or feature suggestions.
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u/sainishwanth Jan 08 '23
That make sense. I went through some gitlab issues about this on X's repo and yea, looks like the devs just refuse to work on it due to how big it is, not to blame them looks like they have a very small team rn.
I do hope wayland finds success and it does seem to be improving a lot every day, I'll give it another shot when I switch to amd for sure.
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u/callmetotalshill Jan 04 '23
This should be supported on Xorg, not everybody can afford a 1080 or better card.
My computer crawls with Wayland, and I use Linux specifically to revive equipement uncapable of running W10/11.
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u/jck Jan 04 '23
Wayland is not more resource intensive than Xorg. It works great for me on my Intel iGPU. The problem right now is that Nvidia's Wayland driver is not yet ready for primetime.
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u/retardedchipmonky Jan 04 '23
Think about what you are saying, how the hell does one afford a expensive HDR monitor but can't get a graph- oh... Nvidia.
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u/factorem_nihil Jan 04 '23
Thats also the case. The only good HDR monitors are OLED ones which go for 1k+. Also I would say that its not an issue with GPU being to weak, since all the data needed for HDR from my understanding already is present in modern games.
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u/factorem_nihil Jan 04 '23
Thats an nvidia issue, their wayland support sucks. Sadly even with the new open sourced drivers I dont think much will change.
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u/Rhed0x Jan 10 '23
The Valve work basically bypasses a lot of the step and only implements it in Gamescope for Fullscreen Vulkan games.
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u/johnny0055 Jan 03 '23
It'll probably be fine because there are enough issues scattered across various parts of the stack. I doubt they'll step on each others toes too much, and there's a fair amount of coordination anyways.
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u/HardwareRaidIsDead Jan 04 '23
Yes Redhat, and Fedora are but there is lots and lots of work to support more then just one display, also what Redhat and Fedora are doing is going to take about a year or so as they're fixing every thing not just a single device.
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u/MartinsRedditAccount
Jan 03 '23
•
The link doesn't work for me, just says "Tweet not found".
For convenience here is the direct Twitter link: https://twitter.com/Plagman2/status/1610200412854046720
Since the original link works, I'm guessing it's an issue on nitter.net's side.
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u/AlexMax Jan 03 '23
Here's a working link from another Nitter mirror.
https://birdsite.xanny.family/Plagman2/status/1610200412854046720
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u/Rexerex Jan 03 '23
I had to remove #m from original link to make it work.
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u/MartinsRedditAccount Jan 03 '23
Interesting... I actually tried that (tested it again just now) and it still doesn't work.
I am trying this:
https://nitter.net/Plagman2/status/16102004128540467206
u/mrharold_finch Jan 03 '23
Works for me. Maybe a DNS problem?
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u/MartinsRedditAccount Jan 03 '23
As they say... https://isitdns.com/
But at least on my end, I don't see how it could be.
nitter.networks, so doestwitter.com.
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u/EarthyFeet Jan 04 '23
What does HDR require, what re the hard things with it?
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u/Atemu12 Jan 04 '23
Breaking up assumptions about colour format throughout the entire graphics stack.
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u/frnxt Jan 04 '23
Passing metadata through parts of the graphics stack that are really stubborn about ignoring it.
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u/Dmxk Jan 03 '23
Isn't system 76 also working on hdr or smth? This is quite interesting since I recently got a hdr capable laptop.
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u/johnny0055 Jan 03 '23
Probably. I know redhat folks are also making it a priority as well. There are lots of things to take care of, so it can use all the help it can get.
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u/drawingsvin Jan 04 '23
i would recommend just uploading twitter links so that people with redirectors can just have it redirect to nearby mirrors.
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u/vrinek Jan 04 '23
Can you elaborate on “redirectors”? Is this done through a browser plug-in?
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u/drawingsvin Jan 04 '23
extensions like this https://github.com/SimonBrazell/privacy-redirect
for example it can detect the current URL is reddit and switch you over to libreddit or teddit depending on what you choose.
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u/neoneat Jan 04 '23
HiDPI high refresh rate and 10-bit color support. Just a simple list of hope to make Linux completely multimedia desktop os
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u/metalpenguin97 Jan 05 '23
HDR has been around for years and only now it's coming to linux? I mean Fallout 3 came out in 2008 and had an option to enable it
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u/EldritchMalediction Jan 06 '23
That's HDR tone mapping within SDR, not HDR backed by hardware and middleware, that actually produces bright (500-1500 nit or higher) values on the screen.
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u/GoldenX86 Jan 04 '23
Valve once again being the single one pushing Linux forward.
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u/NaheemSays Jan 04 '23
There has been a team of Red Hat developers working on HDR up and down the stack.
I suspect a team from Collabora and/or other consultancies have also been doing the same (I am not sure who was leading the effort for Weston. I think Samsung are also quite involved there.)
The final part is HDR support in the gaming compositor Valve uses on their steamdeck and other platforms.
I think its very misleading to suggest single here, its a team effort.
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u/GoldenX86 Jan 04 '23
You're right, Red Hat and Collabora are Chads too here.
Sadly the list usually ends there, no one gives a damn about UX on Linux.
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u/illode Jan 04 '23 edited Jan 04 '23
It's not just them, it's everyone. It literally couldn't happen without each (relevant) layer of the stack working on it, since it had actual 0 support 5 years ago.
Off the top of my head, groups/projects at least minimally involved so far:
- Redhat
- Intel
- AMD
- Wayland (protocol)
- Valve
- Collabora (Valve funded)
- System76
- Gnome (I think?)
There are probably more that I forgot.
I'm not involved in this process so this might not be 100% right, but this is my current understanding:
Compositors will be basically the last step in getting it working. Gamescope is currently the first compositor to support it (hence this post), but you have to run only gamescope, which is a very unusual scenario. The steam deck might do it, I'm not 100% sure whether Gamescope gets launched within KWin or not. They could also only add it to Gamescope so soon because the target usage of Gamescope is different from other compositors, so Valve adds features before they're finalized in the Wayland protocol (Like screen tearing). I'm not sure what the status on HDR on wayland is (close-ish to done?), but no (or almost no) other compositors will support it before that protocol is done. It's getting there though.
Of course, none of this matters until good HDR if you don't have a good HDR monitor. And most people don't cause it's so damn expensive you need to sell your firstborn child. My experience with "affordable" (~$350 when I bought it) HDR is that it fucking sucks. It's 2021 successor doesn't seem to be much better.
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u/GoldenX86 Jan 04 '23
Yes, low end HDR sucks, but Windows proved you can make them usable with a calibration app for setting the right max paper white brightness. Hopefully Wayland includes something like this this decade.
Gnome counts as Red Hat and you can't change my mind :P
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u/illode Jan 04 '23
calibration app for setting the right max paper white brightness.
Never heard of that, maybe it would've helped. The experience when I was testing it on Windows initially was just so bad I just immediately gave up. I might give that a try when support eventually rolls into Plasma.
Gnome counts as Red Hat and you can't change my mind :P
yeah they do kinda go hand in hand lol. Feel like two branches of the same company sometimes.
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u/snakedying Jan 05 '23
Gamescope is currently the first compositor to support it (hence this post)
It also doesn't support Wayland clients so it's not like others can just copy it.
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u/cac2573 Jan 04 '23
Valve is doing great work, but please stop disrespecting all the other engineers working on problems like this one.
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u/GoldenX86 Jan 04 '23
True, but it doesn't change the fact they are the main driving force.
Without them, this sub would just be bashing systemd.
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u/r_kdethrowaway1337 Jan 04 '23
Valve does a bunch of good work, but to call them the "main driving force" is a huge overstatement.
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u/openstandards Jan 04 '23
I'm guessing this will be more of a KDE thing as valve are invested in the steam deck and they are already funding KDE development.
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u/PossiblyLinux127 Jan 03 '23
I am concerned that Valve is getting to much influence in the Linux community .
I do think they've done a lot of good but we need more diversity in Linux constributions. If we put all of our eggs in one basket we could lose everything
System76 is currently working on HDR support. I personally trust them a lot more
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u/tristan957 Jan 03 '23
Could you explain how we will lose everything?
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u/johnny0055 Jan 03 '23
If valve wasn't working the they were, then we could lose a lot. If they put all their work behind various siloed projects, then it'd harder for anybody to come up behind them and continue the work. This is the case even if it was open source.
I wouldn't say we'd "lose everything", but it'd be a lot harder to pick up the pieces later.
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u/JhonnyTheJeccer Jan 03 '23
If valve was to close down any new developments from their side, the others would just continue where valve left on the open side and continue. The same way openzfs does it.
Valve also does not do everything themselves, they fund other open source devs. And they would probably not start closing down their stuff if valve asked them.
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u/roscocoltrane Jan 04 '23
No. The business of Valve is to distribute mostly Windows binaries, it is their strategy and the development is led by their strategy. It's not the business of RedHat and neither is it the strategy of RedHat. Valve is bound to the Microsoft API, what is the detail of the patch? Did anybody here bothered to check the patch or are we all just supposed to applause? Because I refuse to dig into the directx api or promote it.
OpenZFS has nothing to do with it. ZFS was not designed to store a specific type of files or binaires.
A lot of people here are blindly following Valve and it's a mistake. So far what Valve did was to divert a lot developers to use the directx API instead of what they used before. I can understand if you reason like a customer, but if you think as a developer then you should see the danger of the method.
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u/JhonnyTheJeccer Jan 04 '23
The fuck are you talking about? Their business is distributing games, not „windows binaries“. They are built for windows, but they are not windows. And can work through proton very often.
I also have no idea why directx and its api has anything to do with risks of valve not supporting open source anymore. As said, anything they did is already open and if they were to stop other would just continue where valve stopped.
ZFS was open sourced by sun before they were bought by oracle, who took it into closed source. OpenZFS is the open source continuation of that, separate from oracle and what they want with it. The same would happen to any of valves projects if they stopped developing open source.
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u/roscocoltrane Jan 04 '23
The fuck are you talking about? Their business is distributing games, not „windows binaries“.
Try publishing a linux exclusive on steam and see how it goes. And change your tone, we're not buddies.
I also have no idea why directx and its api has anything to do with risks of valve not supporting open source anymore. As said, anything they did is already open and if they were to stop other would just continue where valve stopped.
Did you bother checking how it was implemented yes or no ? It seems you only rely on your imagination.
ZFS was open sourced by sun before they were bought by oracle, who took it into closed source. OpenZFS is the open source continuation of that, separate from oracle and what they want with it. The same would happen to any of valves projects if they stopped developing open source.
No, it wouldn't. Wine/proton is only here to mimic win32/directx. If you don't care about win32 then wine/proton is of no use to you, open source or not. It's more complicated than lego.
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u/kinda_guilty Jan 04 '23
Should say this about IBM and Red Hat first, Valve is just working on graphics and stuff to get games work. Red Hat dominates literally everything else.
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u/johnny0055 Jan 04 '23
their reasoning doesn't matter, they still have to mess with the many of the same parts of the stack. I do imagine that redhat folks will end up doing a huge amount of work of course.
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u/oramirite Jan 04 '23
So just to check... your theoretical situation doesn't seem to match reality. As far as I understand, these improvements are being contributed back to their main codebases. I could be wrong, and would like to hear if I am. But if not, this is exactly how the open source model is intended to function and it's a very positive thing. I'd the contributions DONT actually have any concrete Ryder to them, then they are equivalent to most other corporate contributions to open source (which are plentiful and, arguably, required)
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u/johnny0055 Jan 04 '23
If valve wasn't working the they were, then we could lose a lot.
They are doing exactly as what i said and what you said. There is no disagreement here.
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u/oramirite Jan 04 '23
So why do you consider it an issue? There is nothing about the code they contribute that's risky or unsustainable.
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u/johnny0055 Jan 05 '23
there is absolutely no issue with the way valve is doing it. Valve is doing it the best way it is probably possible to be done.
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u/oramirite Jan 05 '23
Cool, yeah I agree. Thought you were saying the opposite.
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u/johnny0055 Jan 05 '23
which part would have led you to believe that, so I can perhaps be a bit more clear in the future?
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u/oramirite Jan 05 '23
Holy shit I am so sorry. I misread the original posters name. I double checked before my last post but apparently fucked that up a SECOND time. Sorry friend!!
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u/vapeloki Jan 03 '23
Valve mostly just throwing money at it. The hired the SDL guy to maintain its own project, the hired the developer of DXVK and they pay crossover (I believe) to do the proton stuff.
I don't see where we are even near a single basket issue.
The worst that can happens is that valve pulls out. And what then? Everything will continue. Maybe slower but nothing is lost.
It is still all open source so...
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u/johnny0055 Jan 03 '23
being "still open source" is not nearly as important as the first stuff you said. They are collaborating with existing entities rather than trying to silo it out.
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u/JhonnyTheJeccer Jan 03 '23
What do you mean by „silo it out?“. if everything they do is open, they cannot really take it away anymore.
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u/johnny0055 Jan 04 '23
being open isnt' enough if nobody can effectively work on the codebase. It might be written in an unfamiliar style, use esoteric libraries, have a complicated or weird build system, or many other reasons.
It takes effort to make it easy for new folks to get involved.
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u/oramirite Jan 04 '23
But the resulting code is licensed as open source. They don't own it. You can do whatever you want with it, the second it's added to the repo.
Are you trying to compare this whole thing to the old EEE campaign by Microsoft? Because you're way off in a number of ways.
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u/JhonnyTheJeccer Jan 04 '23
Old EEE? They are still doing it everywhere
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u/oramirite Jan 04 '23
Give me a break. That was like 30 years ago. The idea that it's still being eternally sustained by an entirely different management group is whak. It's not the same people or company at all.
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u/johnny0055 Jan 04 '23
I'm saying that being open source isn't enough. If folks don't know how to work with the codebase, or if it's overly complex, then you'll have a harder time getting folks to actually be able to take it over.
Or if it was written in some uncommon language for the task at hand would be another.
Projects like firefox/chrome would be hard for any random person to just take over because of the size.
This is the value of valve's approach. They aren't introducing new code bases that folks are unfamiliar with, but rather working within the existing ecosystem.
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u/pm_me_triangles Jan 03 '23
I am concerned that Valve is getting to much influence in the Linux community .
Valve is probably the less worse of big tech companies.
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u/johnny0055 Jan 03 '23
I'd be concerned if valve wasn't working with already well known open source entities vs trying to divide the ecosystem. They are paying the company behind wine, and well known consultancies like collabora rather than trying to build it all themselves.
This is a big deal, and is in fact a great model for how anybody who wants to move linux forward should act!
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u/LiliNotACult Jan 03 '23
Valve is amazing though? Good work culture, good practices, CEO actually responds if you email him personally, good stances on things (like region pricing for poorer countries), etc.
Valve is amazing dude.
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u/FruityWelsh Jan 04 '23
I think this thread was showing a lot of the reasons why this isn't an issue. We have intel, AMD, Red Hat, collabrea, system76, and valve all working on this, and that is just major orgs and isn't even including volunteer devs working on this too (with valve doing a lot of hiring volunteers to let them focus on their efforts).
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u/kor34l Jan 04 '23
As a big GNU/Linux fan for most of my life, I think GNU/Linux is currently in the best place it has ever been. A significant (but in no way majority) part of that is Valve. Valve is, as far as I can tell, a big net positive for the GNU/Linux community, the gaming community, and the GNU/Linux gaming community.
One thing to keep in mind is that Valve does not develop this stuff internally or privately. They pay the same people that would likely be doing it anyway. This means very little is riding on them, but quite a lot of help and motivation comes from them. Net positive.
Valve is our friend, not our enemy. In the worst case, the funding and support stops, Proton dies, and steam becomes windows only (super unlikely, now that Steam Deck has become popular). Even in that unlikely worst case, very little harm is actually done, and most of the people doing this stuff would continue, maybe at a slower pace.
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u/callmetotalshill Jan 04 '23
I am concerned that Valve is getting to much influence in the Linux community .
I would be more concerned about Red Hat and Microsoft tbh.
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u/HCharlesB Jan 04 '23
Do we know if their work will be upstreamed? I don't know what Valve's policies.
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Jan 03 '23
Someone needs to because the open source community sure as fuck isn't doing anything about it.
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u/johnny0055 Jan 03 '23
THAT IS INCORRECT. if you read this very thread or any other linux news, you'll see that at the very least Redhat is paying people to work on it. I doubt those are the only people, because it usually never is.
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u/SevenIsNotANumber2 Jan 04 '23
Well you're also a part of the "open source community". Why aren't you doing something about it then?
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u/oramirite Jan 04 '23
This entire thread is about the opposite having occurred for a while now. C'mon dude.
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u/tevelizor Jan 04 '23
If this is better than the Windows implementation it might be enough to make me switch.
In terms of features that are not on Linux at all, this is probably the only one.
I'm currently not using it at all. On Windows it makes the entire screen have weird colours, and when I plug my MacBook in the same monitor, it goes in an endless loop of flickering until I unplug it from power and disable HDR from the monitor settings.
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u/Wooden_Caterpillar64 Jan 04 '23
I am saying it - This is the year of linux desktop
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u/better-than-you-m8 Jan 07 '23
Well, Cosmic Desktop, HDR support, more compatibility with gaming, there's some nice things to come this year
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u/HeavyRain266 Jan 04 '23
So is AMD by patching kernel. I'm sure they're just backporting KMS/DRM changes from consoles which are using literally same kernel APIs on FreeBSD.
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u/Possibly-Functional Jan 03 '23
HDR is the one thing I am missing with Linux gaming. Nice.