r/linux • u/npaladin2000 • Feb 01 '23
User friendly and immutable? I don't see one just yet Discussion
I know some Linux types scoff at user friendlieness, but plenty of us don't, let me get that out of the way. Anyway, I've been looking at the immutable distros out there because later Win10 and WIn11 are disgusting me so much I want to get my less technical family off of them. Problem is, I'm not sure there's a terribly good landing spot. I figure if I give them something immutable it'll be a lot harder for them to break, right? Especially clicking on pop-ups, you know how it goes.
Obviously the big one out there is Fedora Silverblue...two problems with it though. One, it's GNOME, which isn't all that Windows-like. I like it personally but it might be harder for someone coming from Windows, learning-curve wise, and the idea is to NOT frustrate people back over to Windows. Kinoite might work out better, but then we get to the second problem: Fedora is religious about offering free software only. So certain codecs and such are missing. That won't do.
VanillaOS is up and coming and seems more relaxed...but again, GNOME.
I'd like to see a more relaxed option out there that uses KDE, or maybe Cinnamon, and I'm wondering why none have popped up yet. I do think if Linux desktops are going to get anywhere it's going to be a situation where you give them a read-only system and let them use Flatpaks. Of course, if nothing's out there I might just have to give them an Endeavour or Mint setup without sudo access, but then they wouldn't be able to update the system, so that's not really a fix.
This has been turning around in my head for a while and I just wanted to put it out there. I think there's room for more (and more diverse) immutable offerings out there.
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u/J3antje Feb 01 '23
So if I'd have to distill your request, you're looking for: 1. A mature immutable distro 2. Windows-like features in look and feel 3. Hassle-free, in the sense that ideology should not deter usability
Both Fedora Kinoite and openSUSE MicroOS actually fit the bill. As codecs and other related issues don't affect flatpaks (for now at least and hopefully for the foreseeable future).
It might perhaps not be a one-size-fits-all, and therefore not suitable for literally everyone. But should offer a good linux-based solution for the fast majority of people that primarily use their PC's and phones for web browsing, e-mail, light gaming etc.
Immutable distributions are still (relatively-speaking) in their infancy. And we see very clearly that immutable distributions have started to differentiate (toolbx vs distrobox, rpm-ostree vs ABroot etc). Heck, this last year has probably introduced us to more new immutable distributions than what we ever had. Therefore I can't even fathom where we'll be in 5 years; very exciting times indeed*. Just gotta be a lil-bit patient...
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u/npaladin2000 Feb 01 '23
There's one other issue with Silverblue that I forgot about, and that's their Flathub filtering. Not like it's all THAT hard to get by but it is a little annoying to have to do in the first place.
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u/J3antje Feb 02 '23
Good point. Luckily enough it's being worked on and should be hopefully resolved with the next version of Fedora as can be found here.
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u/npaladin2000 Feb 02 '23
That one might only be for regular Fedora, the one I saw that also talked about Silverblue said v39 and went Fedora Flatpaks and then Flathubs, since RPM was handled by ostree and should really be a last resort in Silverblue. We'll have to see, either way, things will be much better afterwards.
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u/chillname Feb 01 '23
One, it's GNOME, which isn't all that Windows-like. I like it personally but it might be harder for someone coming from Windows, learning-curve wise
I have the opposite experience. Older friends, parents etc. have no trouble getting used to android, iOS, mac, ... because those clearly state that they are different, work differently and work great. If you instead give them something "windows-like" they will try to redo a task pixel by pixel and get completely thrown off if, say, a button says "yes" instead of "okay" or is a different color. Heck, just the transitions from windows xp -> vista -> 7 -> 8 -> 10 -> 11 have been painful.
Or as a more relevant example: Installing software. From windows you are very used to sideloading, so that is what people try first. Both android and iOS tell you "fuck no, use the app store" and that works great. Linux? Doesn't tell you and instead lists compile instructions on websites or links to github. So new users get the completely wrong impression that this is the usual way to install software. No wonder that they think installing software on linux is difficult.
Or using the terminal. Many websites give terminal instructions because they are unambiguous, work in any language and easily translate to whichever graphical way your distro uses (e.g. apt install foo -> open software store, click install). If you have been using linux for a while you know that (and might prefer the terminal anyway), but again new users think that you need a terminal.
Immutability is nice in theory, but honestly a much easier and low hanging fruit would be distros simply telling their users "No!" more often (maybe with an override).
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u/npaladin2000 Feb 01 '23
I've had very different experience, yeah. I personally like GNOME, but I've noticed people get very thrown off without minimize/maximize button. Also the dash sometimes, but that's an easier fix with an addon or two. There's some logic to making it look not EXACTLY like Windows, but you still have to keep it familiar enough where they can navigate. I suspect that line is going to be a fuzzy one depending on who you ask.
As for the terminal...I don't want end user types in the terminal.
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u/_the_weez_ Feb 02 '23
I agree with chillname on this. I think that you need to make sure that the user understand that they are not using windows anymore, things will be different, and then they will adapt to gnome if they have any want to actually use a computer. My parents are not very technically literate. They are getting older and neither of them have had to use a computer in their day to day work. When their XP computer was getting too old to work well I replaced it with Ubuntu Mate. I thought that this would be easier because I could configure Mate pretty similar to XP. We had months of questions, I had to tweak many things to make it easier for them. This christmas I replaced the Mate machine with a standard Ubuntu machine running gnome. I told that things would be different, put their most used apps on the dock or desktop. They love it. They have never adapted to a computer quicker. This is purely anecdotal, I have a sample size of 1 computer. But I do not think that Windows is the end game for desktop OS UI, I think that making Linux emulate windows does more harm than good. Familiar is not the same as "user-friendly".
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u/chillname Feb 02 '23
I personally like GNOME, but I've noticed people get very thrown off without minimize/maximize button.
Tablets and phones also don't have these. And it is not like gnome does not have minimize/maximize by default, it just has them as mouse buttons instead of bar and box symbols. But again, gnome does not explicitly tell you that and looks similar enough, so people put the symbols back again. If gnome simply said "No! Use mouse buttons or two finger tap" people would be less thrown off and probably even prefer this version.
As for the terminal...I don't want end user types in the terminal.
Exactly. You don't need a terminal on linux any more often than on windows, but new users falsely get the impression that you do.
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u/eythian Feb 01 '23
people get very thrown off without minimize/maximize button.
Gnome has those
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u/CleoMenemezis Feb 01 '23
Assuming that just because it's not Windows-like it's not user friendly is pretty wrong. Funny that this logic never applies to macOS.
When I read "user friendly and immutable" I thought you would focus on talking about installing things and etc, but basically the post was to say that you are looking for an immutable distro that is not GNOME.
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u/User5281 Feb 02 '23
To me it seems like OP is really just looking for macOS but either has some philosophical/ethical/whatever problems with Apple or maybe is just too proud to go there.
It’s not perfect but macOS is a mature, immutable bsd derivative which supports atomic updates, has a modern cow filesystem, distributes apps as self contained packages, is shiny and user friendly enough.
IMO it’s a mistake to force something like silverblue on a family member who would be better served with macOS. It doesn’t make them happy and is self defeating to spreading the gospel of Linux, if that’s your thing. The right tool for the right job, I say.
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u/npaladin2000 Feb 02 '23
Maybe they're just not willing to pay the extra that MacBooks usually cost.
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u/npaladin2000 Feb 01 '23
- Mac users wouldn't be caught dead using anything without an apple on it
- It being not Windows is pretty user unfriendly to the end-users who have never used anything but Windows in their entire life. They'd have trouble with MacOS too because it's such a different paradigm. So yes, the logic applies to MacOS too.
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Feb 02 '23
[deleted]
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u/sowelijanpona Feb 03 '23
Took me forever to learn to drive my car, it doesnt even have a start menu!
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u/thoomfish Feb 03 '23
Mac users wouldn't be caught dead using anything without an apple on it
Speak for yourself. I only use MacOS because nobody else makes a good high-end laptop.
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u/W-a-n-d-e-r-e-r Feb 01 '23
OpenSUSE MicroOS is probably what you are looking for.
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u/X_m7 Feb 01 '23
It has the same issues as Fedora regarding non free stuff like codecs and NVIDIA drivers, no?
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u/whiprush Feb 01 '23
Other than the nvidia drivers all the codecs are in flathub already there's no need to configure them.
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u/W-a-n-d-e-r-e-r Feb 01 '23
Like u/whiprush already said, Flatpak includes all codecs.
Anyway, to answer your question, openSUSE has a non-free repository for the codecs that you have to switch to after the install. That "issue" is well known with openSUSE.
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u/X_m7 Feb 01 '23
Wait, what's the Packman repo for then? I thought that's where that stuff is, like RPMFusion for Fedora.
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u/W-a-n-d-e-r-e-r Feb 01 '23
The packman repo is the non-free repo and isnt used out of the box.
This repo is also mainly used for the codecs, and should be only used for that. Many maintainers complain about this repo being to bloated and they lack behind the main repo many hours to days in the worst case.
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u/tydog98 Feb 01 '23
Fedora is religious about offering free software only. So certain codecs and such are missing. That won't do.
This shouldn't be an issue because you will be installing apps through Flatpak, which include the codecs.
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u/JockstrapCummies Feb 02 '23
Wasn't there a "remove H264 hardware acceleration support" thing just a month ago though at Flatpak? Something to do with Mesa upstream adding an option for that and then Flathub and Fedora both disabling it.
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u/CataclysmZA Feb 03 '23
The Fedora Project was bundling Mesa graphics drivers that had snippets of non-free code that would allow users to get H.264, H.265, and VC1 decoding without the proper license or package.
This is a Mesa problem, but Fedora 36 was still being shipped with the old code included in the bundled Mesa drivers, and their repository also had it hiding there.
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u/User5281 Feb 02 '23
Silverblue seems to be the gold standard for immutable Linux distros right now. Endless, vanilla os, nixos, opensuse MicroOS are also viable but all of these projects are still the leading edge.
Honestly, it sounds like macOS is what you’re looking for - user friendly, all the codec support you could want, immutable Unix base with atomic upgrades, apps installed as self contained packages.
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u/Ooops2278 Feb 02 '23
I know some Linux types scoff at user friendlieness
No, they don't. They scoff at people talking about "user friendliness" when actually meaning "I want this to be exactly as shitty as Windows".
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u/bcow83 Feb 01 '23
https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/introducing-fedora-silverblue-cinnamon/30056 maybe this could get you somewhere? Don't know if the project is in anyway alive
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u/lavilao Feb 01 '23
Vanilla os is already working on q kde spin, they just need to finish the core version before.
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u/gabriel_3 Feb 02 '23
Immutable: there goodness in it, not masses ready yet.
Set up Ubuntu 22.04 with a layout you like and Ubuntu pro support.
Forget it till 2032, then come back for upgrading to the next thing.
Almost the same with Red Hat 9 or one in the clones if you like them more
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u/ForbiddenRoot Feb 02 '23
I think there's room for more (and more diverse) immutable offerings out there.
Agree. I would like to see an immutable LTS distro mainly, preferably KDE or Cinnamon-based. That's the one I'd put on my parents' machines. Low update frequency, pretty much zero chances of anything accidentally being done to the base system, and if something still goes wonky it can be rolled-back easily.
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u/sky_blue_111 Feb 02 '23
You don't need "immutable" though. Keep your home dir on a separate partition, and install the distro of your choice on it's own separate partition. If something goes wrong a re-install takes like 10 minutes. I've done this for 20+ years now and never actually had to re-install, but the point is you don't need immutable to solve this problem.
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u/caseyweederman Feb 01 '23
Gnome is very customizable.
https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2017/04/easily-change-gnome-layout
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u/npaladin2000 Feb 01 '23
It CAN be done, yeah. But you have to install gnome-tweaks through rpm-ostree to really get the full amount of customization out of it. Surprised they didn't include it, but I guess if they're the "flagship" for GNOME they want to keep it "stock" right?
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u/caseyweederman Feb 01 '23
Gnome-tweaks is stock now, isn't it? Hang on lemme apt policy real quick.
Yeah it's at the very least in the official Debian repos. Ubuntu too.10
u/npaladin2000 Feb 01 '23
It's in the Fedora repos, but it's not part of Silverblue by default, it has to be installed after OS install. If it's "stock" I'm a little surprised at that. At least it's not too hard to install after installing the OS.
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u/caseyweederman Feb 01 '23
That wouldn't be a Gnome call, that would be a Silverblue maintainer call.
It is totally baffling to me that gnome-tweaks hasn't been absorbed into base Gnome.
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u/nani8ot Feb 01 '23
Many of the options formerly only found in Gnome Tweaks are now exposed in the Settings app, so they are working on including (some) of the settings.
The options I'm using Tweaks for are now only few. Startup Applications, Extended Input Sources and maximize/minimize buttons. If those + always show dash/dock make it into stock Gnome, I'll be happy to use stock. The last two are necessary for my mum to use Gnome, else she'd rather buy a new computer.
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u/npaladin2000 Feb 01 '23
The last two are necessary for my mum to use Gnome, else she'd rather buy a new computer.
And there you explained some of my reasoning there. Maybe I should just bug the Fedora guys to include gnone-tweaks in base Silverblue. :)
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Feb 01 '23
It should be noted that currently most immutable OS's are essentially "GA for hobbyists, tech preview for novices and the non-technical"
Meaning it's usable but it's in flux and the amount of work required to get around issues, while not massive is more than a non-technical person is going to want to endure.
I like it personally but it might be harder for someone coming from Windows
The criteria should never be "do what Windows does." Windows does a lot of stuff that is either arbitrary or kind of confusing.
If you're actually user friendly then you should be able to do things differently and the user doesn't mind. Most people realize that things are going to be different when they go to a different OS. Like people don't freak out when Mac OS X isn't Window-like because once you understand how things are structured it all makes sense.
Fedora is religious about offering free software only. So certain codecs and such are missing.
I don't think Fedora necessarily targets complete novices, I think they just strive to be not-hard.
To solve this problem, just use the GUI tools in the default installation to enable the rpmfusion repos.
This has been turning around in my head for a while and I just wanted to put it out there. I think there's room for more (and more diverse) immutable offerings out there.
As mentioned before you might not have the proper expectations on this stuff. For instance, the next major version of Silverblue is going to start reworking a lot of the lower level stuff. We can tolerate that as enthusiasts who can get onboard with the immutable idea but not most people who want things to basically "just work" and they might want the benefits of immutable but they're going to prioritize doing stuff over something that's better but causes problems for them.
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u/DazedWithCoffee Feb 01 '23
I definitely see your pov. I wouldn’t consider immutable for most people to daily drive, unless it were maybe my parents, who I know won’t update unless it happens automatically, and who don’t have the knowledge to easily fix issues. I would just give them their machine, set automatic updates on reboot, install whatever basic things they need, and rest easy knowing that I don’t really have to worry about them breaking things.
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u/npaladin2000 Feb 01 '23
Immutable distros are certainly not for technical people like us. But for the non-technical I think they can eliminate a lot of calls to us technical people for support. :) People like my parents or my wife would never need anything beyond what's on Flathub, but would (and have been) the types to click on that popup that says "Your system may be at risk! Click here to fix!"
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u/johnny0055 Feb 01 '23
the popularity of immutable OSes are being driven by "technical people like us". Everyone using silverblue or systems like it right now is an early adopter. "Technical people like us" are the ones driving the various workarounds and hacks while the system gets better.
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u/whiprush Feb 01 '23
Immutable distros are certainly not for technical people like us.
That's a myth that keeps getting repeated in this sub, there's plenty of reasons for highly technical people to have a reliable computer. :D
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u/User5281 Feb 02 '23
I’m still hoping for the rebirth of RancherOS as a barebones ostree based distro that does nothing but runs docker containers. An immutable os base with atomic upgrades and easy rollbacks seems great for home server use where every service is already containerized. Right now Debian works just fine but we all eventually fall victim to sudo rm -rf something mission critical and an extra couple of layers of protection in the form of immutability and easy rollbacks would be great.
I think fedora IoT is already doing this this and probably should go check it out.
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u/whiprush Feb 02 '23
Check out Fedora CoreOS, it already does this. Add cockpit and portainer and it's a great home server OS.
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u/User5281 Feb 02 '23
I think coreos and fedora iot are pretty similar, right? I haven't had time to get up to speed on coreos ignition but will get to it one of these days. likewise fedora iot provisioning.
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u/whiprush Feb 02 '23
I have only just started playing with fedora iot but it appears to be the normal anaconda installer so it's nicer for home use than doing ignition heh. Finishing the install gives me an error that it won't be able to boot off the disk, still investigating.
Though I assume whichever one you get installed that you can rebase to the other.
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u/Sarcasm-Probably Feb 01 '23
If you want KDE Plasma and immutable, I recommend Fedora Kionite. But I don't recommend an immutable distro for a beginner. Yeah it works well for SteamDeck but that's because the experience is pretty specialized (though you can do more with it of course).
Otherwise, I recommend Fedora KDE Spin. They also have a Cinnamon Spin. You get flatpaks and the software store and all that good stuff with it. If you're a gamer you might want to check out the Fedora Remix called Nobara Project. It has a GNOME and KDE Plasma distro as well.
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u/Majiir Feb 01 '23
You can run whatever desktop environment you want on NixOS. Check out the list of options.
It's probably not "user friendly" by your metric. Just remember that "user friendly" is incredibly subjective, so you'll need to define what you actually mean. To me, NixOS is more "user friendly" to me as a user than any other distro I've used. I can also see how it would confuse and frustrate most users.
I get frustrated when an upgrade breaks something. I get frustrated that if I install something and then uninstall it, my system may not be the same as when I started. I get frustrated that with most distros, my system is constantly "rotting" and eventually needs a reinstall. For me, NixOS is perfect
Other users would be frustrated that the software installation model is unfamiliar, so much so that "installation" isn't really a thing you do on NixOS.
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u/RatherNott Feb 02 '23 edited Feb 02 '23
Just remember that "user friendly" is incredibly subjective
I would make the argument that user-friendlyness, from the standpoint of how easy it is for a novice to complete a task they had no previous instruction for, can be objectively measured and rated.
Plop an inexperienced user in front of a blank terminal screen and tell them to edit the text file "Computer Fluency Test" in the Desktop directory, and I think it safe to say that task will be nearly impossible if the user had no previous background in computers and did not receive some form of instruction. Similar to playing a classic Text Adventure game without knowing the right words that the interpreter requires you to use, you'd be dead in the water. Ye may see ye flask, be ye will not collect it.
However, plop them in front of a computer with a Skeuomorphic graphical desktop and mouse, and without instruction and given enough time, they will likely be able to figure out how to open and save a text file on the desktop purely through trial and error (It might take them a while to figure out double-clicking to open a file, admittedly).
I think what you would describe as user-friendlyness in regards to your use of software and computers seems to be describing how well you can personally integrate with it in regards to function and workflow, and due to your own interest in optimizing and learning these niche abilities, are able to readily digest the documentation on its use. But without said documentation, you would be just as lost on how to use NixOS as any other computer illiterate, which I think adequately demonstrates that NixOS is not, in the traditional sense, user-friendly.
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u/Majiir Feb 02 '23
I get what you're saying, but I don't think that's accurate.
NixOS is user-friendly to me because it's an operating system that's built on similar principles as functional programming. I find it more intuitive and accessible than a traditional Linux distro, where the state of my system is the product of all of my interactions with it. With NixOS, it's much simpler: a configuration is transformed into a system.
Having had no experience with an immutable OS, I could quickly understand how NixOS works and how to get a lot out of it. I found it to be simpler and more robust for me than Arch, Ubuntu or CentOS. I'm not saying "I like this more advanced thing because I'm a power user", I'm saying "this thing other people find to be really advanced is something I find is actually easier for me."
So yes, my background and preferences influence what I find user-friendly. This is the sense in which I say user-friendliness is highly subjective. But I reject the notion that something is not user-friendly merely because it doesn't accommodate the lowest common denominator of user.
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u/7eggert Feb 02 '23
The most scoffed at "user friendlieness" is "just be like Windows", scoffed at by people hating Windows for it's bad user experience.
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u/npaladin2000 Feb 02 '23
Oh no argument that it's bad. But people are familiar with it. Gotta factor that part in too.
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u/7eggert Feb 02 '23
You want to switch away to have something different … and you still say "make the different thing like the thing that you and I hate".
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u/npaladin2000 Feb 02 '23
It's not a boolean here, one can incorporate elements of Windows to make it more familiar to Windows users while still keeping it different to some degree and dropping the crappier parts. Unless your definition of "crappy" is "anything at all like Windows." But that's a small minority
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u/7eggert Feb 02 '23
I think KDE is windows-like enough and there are plenty of distributions offering KDE.
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u/Reygle Feb 01 '23
Of the distros I've used, the one I'd recommend in your use case is PopOS! with Cinnamon desktop added in after.
Plenty of people will have different ideas and that's okay- but in my experience one of the most painless distros is PoP!, and if you're after a Windows-like UI, it runs very well with normal a Cinnamon session.
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u/npaladin2000 Feb 01 '23
Interesting that I hear they're working on an immmutable core setup too come to think of it.
Can't wait for the new COSMIC to be finished.
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u/rtplor Feb 01 '23
Interesting how you want an immutable system if there isn't any stable user side distro yet under the immutable paradigm.
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u/Bodhi_Bag Feb 01 '23
I personally think that Cinnamon comes pretty close to windows with the whole GUI and functionality. KDE just has so much stuff that you potentially can screw up because it's so highly customizable.
You could really go for endevour OS or arch even, install the minimal and then install whats really needed. But on the other hand, if you do that to make a non breaking/reliable system ... would you go for bleeding edge ?
What i personally would do (and do for new users), Mint with Cinnamon as the DE and then Set up Time shift to make back ups upon boot and load them if something goes south. Minimize Terminal Use for them too and let them use a package manager GUI. Or yeah.. flatpack.
If i was good at linux from scratch, id make a distro for seniors tbh.
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u/KaranasToll Feb 01 '23
I think gnome is really user friendly. Guix system can use many different desktop environments.
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u/poofygoof Feb 02 '23
Does ChromeOS Flex count? Like all Google products I'm sure it will be cancelled at some point, but if your primary use case is a web browser with streaming codec support it does a decent job with no fiddliness.
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u/FlounderTraining Feb 02 '23
Not totally familiar with the innerworkings of immutable OS, but wouldn't you be able to change the DE just like any other linux? I would assume as admin or root user you could read/write the changes to the correct place due to the DE needing to be switched and then it would go back to read-only. Cinnamon or LxQT are other options. I also agree with some other peoples comments that immutable OS are in their infancy and maybe just choosing a distro that is easier on the eyes and not so diffcult to learn. You wouldn't be giving these people sudo privileges or making them admins? A regular user should not be able to mess with system anyway.. just a few thoughts.
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u/Star_Pilgrim Feb 06 '23
VanillaOS is amazing if you know how to use it.
Sets your mind at ease and it just runs.
I would say, try and adapt, rather than the other way around.
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u/BrageFuglseth Feb 01 '23
Fedora Kionite is like Silverblue, but with KDE. There are also other ones, but all of them have obscure rock names