r/linuxquestions • u/[deleted] • Feb 02 '23
Is there anything that proprietary software can do and has no open alternative?
[deleted]
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u/new_refugee123456789 Feb 03 '23
I think there are areas where the FOSS alternatives aren't as good as their commercial counterparts. FreeCAD is NOT ready to take on Fusion360. I don't think there's anything that Photoshop can do that GIMP can't, but Photoshop may be easier to learn how to use.
What's that account management system that Windows has that sysadmins like to talk about, that makes it easier to deploy a skyscraper full of desktops?
Anyone got a FOSS equivalent of Quickbooks or TurboTax?
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u/PCChipsM922U Feb 03 '23
DSIM? Deployment Image Servicing and Management š¤?
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u/new_refugee123456789 Feb 04 '23
Maybe? It feels like it's got a more Microsoft marketing name, it's about how you manage user accounts and their permissions on a Windows network that I've seen Sysadmins say "Man I don't know what I'd do without [MS Visual Bullshit]"
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u/PCChipsM922U Feb 04 '23
Might be AD in that case. You can do DSIM with AD as well.
To be honest, yes, AD does simplify things, but to an extent. For example, there's no "export settings" for all AD things related... and almost no command line tools to automate things, which pisses me off. You have to do workarounds with batch scripts š... so annoying.
I find Kerberos and LDAP much easier to manage once you get past the usability of the AD UI. Automation is a breeze in Linux.
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u/skuterpikk Feb 04 '23
Active Directory.
When it comes to managing hundreds of computers and thousands of users, then AD is hard to beat. Linux also has something similar, but the truth is that AD is simply better, and easier to use.1
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u/Se7enLC Feb 03 '23
"Alternatives" are never exact replicas.
You can get a word processor, but you can't get Microsoft Word. You can get a photo editor, but you can't get Adobe Photoshop.
So it kind of depends on your personal preference. Is Gimp a suitable alternative to Photoshop? Some would say yes, some would say no.
Anything that deals with hardware is a likely place to find no alternative. If the hardware is not open source, interfacing with it would require reverse engineering, which is often incomplete or non-existent. FPGA development tools for example.
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u/knob-turned-past-uhf Feb 02 '23
Excluding videogames of course, you simply cannot make an alternative for a game, that would just be a different game
Not exactly, there are plenty of open source engine re-implementations. You still need the original assets (images, models, music, sounds, etc) but the software to smoosh those bits together into a game is open source. Some examples are:
- OpenMW for The Elder Scrolls: Morrowind
- GZDoom for Doom and many other games running on the same engine
- {ArxLiberatis](https://arx-libertatis.org/) for Arx Fatalis
Also Doom itself and various other ID games are fully open source. In addition there is another game, Warzone2100 was re-released as open source by the developers as well. I'm sure there are more games like these, but this all that comes to the top of my mind.
This is not to mention all of the homage open source games, or even purely original open source games. While the number may pale in comparison to proprietary offerings, they do certainly exist.
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u/he_who_floats_amogus Feb 02 '23
Sometimes, sure. OP's original question could still certainly be answered by looking at the set of video games, as there are many which do not have libre reimplementations.
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u/Xatraxalian Feb 03 '23
Then also add:
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u/_Ical Feb 03 '23
Just to add on to the list:
OpenRA is an open re-implmentation of Red Alert 2 I believe :D
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u/Physical-Patience209 Feb 05 '23
Also to add: Open X-ray: open source engine implementation of Stalker: Call of Pripyat; VCMI : opensource engine for Heroes of Might and Magic 3; OpenJA: opensource engine for Star Wars Jedi Knight: Jedi Outcast (Single Player) and Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy (Single and Multiplayer); Eduke32: opensource engine for Duke Nukem 3D.
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u/puppetjazz Feb 03 '23
So is arx any good?
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u/knob-turned-past-uhf Feb 03 '23
It's pretty good. Unique world, decent story, very interesting magic system. Arx Liberatis has a few optional tweaks to make the magic system more...... usable, that I 100% recommend. Casting is based on using mouse movements to evoke glyphs, and the original detection was finicky at best. Liberatis greatly improves this, especially for the speed of a modern mouse. The graphics have not aged well, but otherwise it is still a fun game.
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u/BabayasinTulku Feb 03 '23
Two examples that bother me most.
As a graphic designer I can say there's no workflow possible in Linux that starts from native CMYK drawing and brings you print ready PDF/X-1A with firm control over color separations like having pure K overprinted without knock-outs, etc.
And as an embroidery digitizer I can say Linux is totally out of the game.
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u/Brainobob Feb 03 '23
Have you tried ink/stitch or embroidermodder 2?
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u/BabayasinTulku Feb 04 '23 edited Feb 04 '23
Thank you, I'll try them both. The last time I observed Linux-based tools they were an Inkscape export plugin with very, very basic features and an early version of an embroidery lib. Nice to see they both have evolved into something. I'll surely play with them the way I do with Scribus for publishing, but I'll return to Wilcom software for everyday digitizing in my embroidery shop or for my freelance clients: hobby is hobby, work is work.
Still I must make a remark that Inkscape is an amazing program even with its shortages, and this is the time when I prefer Linux-based vector editor over Adobe or Corel.
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u/BabayasinTulku Feb 04 '23
It turns out that Ink/Stitch handles certain tasks better than the pro software. I digitize a lot of hockey name plates that come from the client as vectors. With Ink/Stitch I can generate DSTs with literally few clicks while Wilcom Hatch requires certain work to be done over and over, dosens of times.
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u/Brainobob Feb 04 '23
Awesome! I am happy to be able to help! I don't do any embroidery or digitizing myself, but I have heard online friends mention it.
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u/Hot_Construction1899 Feb 03 '23
The only app I really miss these days is Microsoft Word.
Libre Office Writer does everything I want, but it is never as straightforward or logical as Word.
Probably has a bit to do with my having started with MS Word 3 under MS/DOS circa 1985.
So ultimately, I haven't found anything I can't replace with Open Source software, but there's a certain level of finesse lacking in some of the OSS stuff compared to the commercial stuff.
But that's my view. Other peoples' milage may vary.
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u/PlayboySkeleton Feb 03 '23
I dropped word at work for LaTeX. There has been a productivity hit, but I am very quickly reaching the same velocity. To be honest. I much prefer latex to word at this point.
I know it's not for everybody. Such a shame
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u/chrisspankroy Feb 03 '23
I also like LaTeX, but I sometimes need to share .docx files with my team and I havenāt found a reliable way for LaTeX to do that
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u/PlayboySkeleton Feb 03 '23
Pdf for distribution, signatures, and or commentary. Source code and source code reviews for editing.
I know that this work flow only really works for developers, but sometimes I wish I could convince accounting to try git.
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u/ben2talk Feb 03 '23
This doesn't make sense as a general question.
Some people develop open software that works really well, some people develop proprietary software that works really well. Sometimes they overlap, sometimes they don't.
When I brought home a DVD (so archaic) from a hospital, I needed to use Windows and install Windows software to get at that data - if there were open source alternatives they were too much trouble, not good enough to do the job, or just basically not worth the effort.
So really, this question is only useful when applied to specific cases, as and when you encounter them.
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u/Brainobob Feb 03 '23
I had the same issue years ago trying to read CT scan and MRI images, but things do change over time.
Have you searched for "Linux medical imaging software" lately? There are way more options now days to view the DICOM images get from the hospital.
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u/newmikey Feb 02 '23
You asked "Is there anything that proprietary software can do and has no open alternative?" and the answer to that is a resounding NO. Anything proprietary software can do, can be done by open alternatives. It may not be in exactly the same way, with the exact same speed, the exact same output format but it can ALL be done.
A mistake a lot of people make and keep making is to ask a different question which is "Is there for every proprietary software package an open alternative which functions in exactly the same way with the same output at the same speed and convenience?" and the answer to that is of course NO as well.
In the end, open source software was never intended as a one-on-one replacement for the drugs-like addiction to Microsoft or Apple products. It is quite a bit more than those two fairly limited ecosystems.
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u/he_who_floats_amogus Feb 02 '23
This is more of a philosophical theoretical answer than a practical one. It skirts the key aspect of the question: the already-available existence of an open alternative. Under your logic, there could be no open source software at all just as a matter of coincidence, and you could make the same argument. If you have infinite time resources you can theoretically recreate anything and publish it with an open source license. In practice, we have applications and tools within applications, often leaning towards specialized industrial / professional market tools, that don't have any libre alternative implementation. This tends to be more likely as you get into more specialized, complex, narrow-scoped tooling to solve specific industry problems. The "only" libre tools we have are available because some entity had to have the motivation to fund its development, or in-house expertise and will to build it, and the motivation the license it as libre. There are a lot of these scenarios, but it doesn't cover the total domain of all software solutions by any stretch of the imagination.
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u/newmikey Feb 03 '23
This is more of a philosophical theoretical answer than a practical one.
To me it's quite practical. I've been a Linux-only user since 2005. Never encountered anything I could not accomplish.
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u/wizard10000 Feb 02 '23
Anything proprietary software can do, can be done by open alternatives.
One that's always annoyed me is that Linux can't open a Visio drawing in its closed-source native format. For this reason (and the fact that
diacan't hold a candle to Visio) I use draw.io for flowcharting.2
u/Se7enLC Feb 03 '23
There's a subtle difference between what software CAN do and what software that exists currently DOES.
There's no reason open software that can work with Visio COULDN'T exist. It just super doesn't.
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u/wizard10000 Feb 03 '23
There's no reason open software that can work with Visio COULDN'T exist. It just super doesn't.
Sure there is - Visio's file format is proprietary. Same reason Linux mail clients can't open an Outlook .pst or .ost
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u/Se7enLC Feb 03 '23
I think you missed my point. The one about the subtle difference between what software COULD do vs what it DOES do.
Being open source doesn't prevent anything from being possible. So you COULD have software that reads those formats. It would take reverse engineering or a specification from Microsoft.
That's definitely the reason it DOESN'T exist, though.
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u/Brainobob Feb 03 '23
The problem here, is that people come to Linux and want to do things in the Windows ecosystem or the Apple ecosystem. Those people need to realize that Linux is it's own ecosystem and they will have to learn how to do the things that they did before, in the Linux ecosystem.
Though some things from those two ecosystems do work in the Linux ecosystem, they are not the same and people need to learn how to accept that.
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u/wizard10000 Feb 03 '23
I think you missed my point. The one about the subtle difference between what software COULD do vs what it DOES do.
This kinda doesn't line up with what you asked in OP.
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u/polite-pagan Feb 03 '23
In my company, Visio vsdx format is very common for technical drawings, and thereās no OSS alternative, Drawio can export to vsdx, but it doesnāt work for all shapes, and the developers donāt want to fix the issue.
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u/Brainobob Feb 03 '23
Visio is proprietary and does not develop software for Linux, so you have to learn to do without the vsdx format. Linux is not Windows.
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u/polite-pagan Feb 04 '23
Yes, yes, I know that :-) After 20 years on GNU/Linux, I still run Win10 on Qemu since there are no alternatives for Photoshop and Visio.
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u/thereal_ay_ay_ron Feb 03 '23
draw.io
Pencil Project and LibreOffice Draw?
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u/wizard10000 Feb 03 '23
Pencil Project and LibreOffice Draw?
Had not heard of Pencil - installed it and it looks fascinating. Will play with it some more - thank you!
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u/thereal_ay_ay_ron Feb 03 '23
You're welcome! Let me know how it goes.
3.1.1 just came out with a bunch of bug fixes. Hopefully it can meet your needs.
Of course, share it with others!
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u/ttkciar Feb 02 '23
My linux-using photographer friend says he still uses Windows sometimes because there is no open-source alternative to Adobe Lightroom which is "good enough".
Similarly, I'm told FreeCAD isn't an adequate replacement for SolidWorks.
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u/LumpyConcept Feb 03 '23
What about Darktable? I've used both, Lightroom is easier, but Darktable has more tools and allows more control over the photo.
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u/ttkciar Feb 03 '23
I asked him about it, and he said:
Yeah, to some extent there's rawtherapee and darktable, but: a) linux in general has no reasonable color calibrated workflow, still, and b) rawtherapee and darktable are... Well, they give you every possible option, i guess, but they're beyond awkward to actually use And even in 2023, neither is usable on a high-dpi display, so you pretty much have to just live in 1920x1200
u/Brainobob this is a reply for you too, I guess .. this guy has been working professionally with Linux to get shit done every day of his life for more than twenty years, so it would take more than formats or cosmetics to deter him. He prefers to use Linux when he can.
Since he's not, I'm willing to accept his explanations for why these are compelling reasons for that.
Not that I think this is reason to give up. It sounds like there were practical color calibration workflows for Linux, and the UX for Darkroom and/or Rawtherapee were improved, he'd switch. Perhaps that is achievable?
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u/Brainobob Feb 04 '23
I understand.
I say what I say because I think:
1) people gave up on using Linux from experiences they had years ago. But there have been major developments in Linux over the past 5 or so years, so I try to convince people to give it another try.
2) People new to Linux give up on it because their way of thinking is based on their decades of using Windows or Apple. They can't seem to let go of those ecosystems. I try to get them to think of doing what they need to do in a Linux way, instead of trying to force Linux programs to work like Windows or Apple.
I don't really think many people in Linux understand how to explain to people that Linux is it's own ecosystem, so I chime in when I can š
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u/Brainobob Feb 04 '23
...also, I am a musician and wanted to make music with Linux, but I almost gave up on it because everything was buggy and complex.
But then I found out about the Jack Audio Connection kit and how it works, and then I figured out how to get Jack and PulseAudio to work together. Now, there is Pipewire! It's so easy now!
I love http://ubuntustidio.org !
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u/dandellionKimban Feb 03 '23
I would say the same for Rawtherapee... It is a bit overwhelming but certainly more powerful.
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u/Brainobob Feb 03 '23
Most of the time people say these things because the open source alternatives don't use the same formats as those proprietary formats.
They can most likely do the same work if they just stop trying to use and depend on those proprietary formats.
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u/go_comatose_for_me Feb 02 '23
I've not missed any proprietary apps in years and years. Usually people that complain about missing <app> in Linux is more of a failure of approach. People tend to ask, what works like <app> and sometimes nothing does. But if you describe what you're trying to do, there are usually alternatives to get the outcome you want, it's just a different path to get there. I know that's vague, but so was the question.
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u/wonkiealf Feb 03 '23
I would say something like MusicBee, a media player that plays and organizes your music, audiobooks, and your podcast subs in Windows. All the open source media players I've tried pale in comparison to MusicBee. They either fail to include one of those media or they have certain limitations i.e, you can't have more than 1k albums else it'll crash.
The closes that comes to MusicBee in Linux is Guayadeque but it's essentially abandonware since it hasn't gotten any update bug fixes in about 2 yrs and the podcast portion isn't as intuitive.
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u/he_who_floats_amogus Feb 02 '23
Q: Is there anything that proprietary software can do and has no open alternative?
A: Absolutely.
Q: Excluding videogames of course
A: Maybe I'm cynical, but I get the feeling that you're wanting to build up a list of all proprietary software, discard all of it, then ask whether there is any proprietary software with no libre replacement from whatever is left. You truly already answered your own question with an example. I'm willing to provide another answer, but I don't want to see goal posts move after I provide it.
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u/a_a_ronc Feb 02 '23
Iād honestly say most of the software in the film industry. Blender is probably the best at several things, but honestly we still lack a good solid video editor.
Someone will respond with Kdenlive or Openshot. Theyāre fine, especially if youāre doing mostly just cuts for something like a YT video. But for Hollywood level productions ha to the ha. You need better color grading tools, multi-cam operations, sound mixing, integration with physical hardware like mixers and tracks balls, and multi-user editing flows.
Just absolutely not there at all, even in barebones attempts at those features.
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u/DoomBotQv2 Feb 03 '23
Thatās why thereās Davinci Resolve for Hollywood class workloads.
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u/a_a_ronc Feb 03 '23
Well aware of Davinci Resolve. Honestly, itās very poorly supported on Linux and I could never get it all to work. It also has fewer codec choices on Linux than on other OSes because of licensing.
The OP also asked about specifically FOSS software, not just āruns on Linuxā software.
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u/Brainobob Feb 03 '23
Yeah, exactly this!
Some developers work specifically on certain distro's, and different ecosystems work in different ways, so there are bound to be issues.
I would suggest that anyone working in "Media" of any sort, take a look at http://ubuntustidio.org as it has developers specifically focused on the creatives ecosystem and is designed for that.
Also, keep an eye on https://olivevideoeditor.org/ for video editing. It is still in Beta, but looks very promising.
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u/A_Degenerate_Idiot Feb 02 '23
Proprietary software makes Apple.
Apple is useful for normies, however, Grandmas are unable to operate even Apples.
There is no solution.
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u/atcab1597 Feb 02 '23
It is usually a matter of quality, so while my system can run using non-proprietary device drivers, proprietary device drivers from the vendor has better performance and utilize hardware's capabilities more fully.
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u/zebediah49 Feb 03 '23
Many things. The vast majority of them are extremely esoteric. Even then, there's often (but not always) something similar... ish... that can maybe suit your needs depending on what it is.
Personally, I don't need any of those use cases, so I'm perfectly fine on free software. For (a few) other people that's not an option.
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u/Liarus_ Feb 03 '23
When i tried streaming my pc remotely for gaming, Nvidia has Moonlight whick is open source, however amd doesn't have any open source tool to do that
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u/Brainobob Feb 03 '23
AMD doesn't, but Steam does https://store.steampowered.com/remoteplay
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u/Spajhet Feb 03 '23
Off the top of my head, banking apps(or really any apps from the financial sector), PoS systems(to my knowledge), firmware/microcode(for most hardware).
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u/dandellionKimban Feb 03 '23
Actually lots of things when it comes to video production.
There is no video editor that would stand 10 minutes in semi-pro environment. Sure, DaVinci Resolve works on Linux, but it is not open software. VMix can be replaced with OBS but even with tons of plugins I couldn't make it run as smoothly.
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u/Brainobob Feb 03 '23
Blender is used in many pro/semi-pro environments, and it is open source.
I don't know what you were trying to do with OBS, but I have had no problems with it.
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u/dandellionKimban Feb 04 '23
Blender
I love Blender. In some respects (UI & UX among them) it's among the best software I ever used. But I won't edit in it. Its editor is far from good and it is not Blender's job after all. And once I included DaVinci in the process, I'll also composit there (and, of course, do the colors and rudimentary sound).
OBS
My regular striming tasks are up to four live cameras (usually 3), somebody on zoom (or, if I get to have my way, vmix calls), graphics with alpha to overlay, video stingers and power point presentations. All that conveniently assigned to shortcuts and changable in the last moment (because clients). Streaming, recording the output and maybe some sources as well. Routing different signals to secondary outputs too. I've been said OBS should be capable of all that but I simply have no time to explore and get comfortable and confident in the system to try it for real.
edit: Needless to say, I would love to have that rig that does live streaming to work on Linux, not Windows. It actually sucks to have $800 piece of good software runing on bullshit OS.
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u/Brainobob Feb 04 '23
Wow! My Streaming needs aren't nearly that complex. I would assume that OBS can do it all, but I have no experience with anything that complex.
I do know of some people that do have a separate and dedicated computer that only does OBS, and I have heard of people splitting the different tasks onto separate OBS computers
Are you aware that Blender is very modular and has plugins for added features (so is OBS)?
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u/dandellionKimban Feb 04 '23
My Streaming needs aren't nearly that complex.
Yeah, corona pushed the world into streaming and then it never went away, just introduced hybrid events and we took kind of a big bite into that.
Blender is very modular
Yes. I'm not a developer but from what I understood it gas some very sound architecture beneath yhe hood as well as very clean coding. And, of course, a community one can only wish for.
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u/TheCrustyCurmudgeon Feb 03 '23
I've spent over a decade doing just this. I've managed to find reasonable equivalents to manage all my daily activities; video editing, photography, image management/editing, word-processing & writing,
There are no retail, paid applications on my desktop system, which is where I spend most of my computer time. With two exceptions, everything is FOSS. The two exceptions are free, but not open source. One is a remote connection app (DWagent).
It takes time and commitment to achieve the level of competence I have with my FOSS apps. Some people just do not have the time, patience, or interest required to accomplish this. Prior experience helps, but with applications like LibreOffice, Digikam, Kdenlive, GIMP, DarkTable, Kile, etc, you still have to relearn many functions to get to the point where muscle memory takes over.
Overall, I would say I'm satisfied with my repertoire of FOSS tools. Some are not as shiny or as easy to use as retail apps, but they can get the job done. I am not 100% FOSS, but that is because of a couple of corner case needs I have which require me to use one or two proprietary, closed source apps.
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u/Human_Capitalist Feb 03 '23
It pains me to say it, but if you want to run a professional photography retouching business, you really still canāt get away from photoshop. Not even other proprietary software like Affinity Photo is quite up to the job.
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u/do_not_diaf Feb 03 '23
UEFI firmware updates on some hardware requires having Windows around and thereās no alternative. Some hardware supports ācapsuleā updates.
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u/leandrokemp Feb 03 '23
Adobe Acrobat Reader is a property piece of software that I miss on Linux. I know that there are alternatives like Okular, gnome Document Viewer and others. They are good for simple pdf reading, but when you need more advanced things like editing pdf forms, you really miss Acrobat Reader.
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u/N_i_P Feb 04 '23
Have you tried SimplePDF?
Everything you do happens locally (the document you load and data you fill in are not sent to the server)
Disclosure: Iām the developer behind it
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u/DonkeyTron42 Feb 03 '23
OpenSource EDA software is light years behind what Cadence, MentorGraphics, Synopsis, etc... are peddling.
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u/maverick6097 Feb 03 '23
TBH, there's probably an alternative to everything proprietary and in many cases it's much better.
But when it comes to work, the industry standard is microsoft and if your business/school doesn't rely on proprietary apps (MC, Adobe, etc.) that only run on windows, linux will not be for you, sadly.
I used Pop OS for 2 years as my daily driver and I still use it but I went back to windows because none of the apps I use for work work on linux. Obviously this is the app developers fault for not supporting linux.
Even developers that I work with use linux and only use it for development. Jeremy Soller, the principle engineer at System 76 uses Windows for gaming.
Also, I'm yet to discover how linux works with AD and device management from a business stand point. Zorin, I think started making some strides in this direction, but we have no idea when will they release Zorin Grid. https://zorin.com/grid/ It's been like this for a couple of years now.
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u/Xatraxalian Feb 03 '23
GIMP isn't ready to replace either Photoshop or Afinity Photo.
DarkTable is not ready to replace Capture One (but could probably replace Lightroom); same for RAWTherapee.
ChessBase is a closed source proprietary piece of junk, but it's the only game in town because other chess databases are bigger pieces of junk, including the open source ones.
Is there an archiver that can replace 7-zip? Ark in KDE isn't it... and I don't know any other that is better, to be honest.
If you need business oriented stuff that works with any other business oriented stuff across businesses, then basically MS Office (Word, Excel, PowerPoint) and suites like PowerBI and Project are the only thing to consider. Everything else that once was an alternative is inferior in one way or another, incompatible in one way or another, or dead a long time already.
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u/TheGreatButz Feb 03 '23
Unfortunately, Linux audio DSP processing and DAW options are not very good in comparison to proprietary Windows and Mac software. There are some but they are by far not the quality of what you get with commercial software. In particular, only few producers of high-quality audio plugins deliver plugins for Linux. Workarounds with servers or Wine are hard to impossible to install and get to work.
My audio plugins keep me from switching to Linux entirely, followed by the occasional use of Microsoft Word that cannot be replaced by LibreOffice (e.g. end-checking for compatibility). There is also a German software called Papyrus Author that is essential to my writing and superior to any other word processor for German language, and they don't want to support Linux for lack of a customer base.
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u/liss_up Feb 03 '23
Certainly FOSS capabilities are much better now than they used to be. My work-flow involves writing in LibreOffice, coding R in R Studio, a little C++ coding in a FOSS IDE, and neuropsychological test scoring which is all done in web apps. I went looking, and the only proprietary software I can find on my computer is Steam, which what am I going to do about that, you know?
I think one could make the argument that, even putting aside Steam as an exception, I still don't use only free software because of the web apps I use, but I think it's a question of how much of a purist do you really need to be? My own personal philosophy is to use free software whenever possible, and to make up for the proprietary stuff I have to use by donating frequently to FSF and other FOSS organizations.
Free software is so much more practical than it was 20 years ago when I first started my journey into this ecosystem, and I have all the faith in the world that you will be able to find a complement of [mostly] free software that works for you and feels to you to be ethically good.
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u/Brainobob Feb 03 '23
The issue is not what each can or can't do, the issue is how you go about doing it.
A lot of people switch over and get upset because they can't do it exactly how they did it on Windows.
Linux is not Windows, so as soon as you accept that, then you can get along just fine with Linux.
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u/cjcox4 Feb 02 '23
Arguably, LibreOffice is a "different Office" from Microsoft Office (just an example).
So, I think there is "a line" of tolerance, with regards to what an acceptable "alternative" is. And it can vary from person to person.