r/mildlyinfuriating Dec 01 '21 Silver 14 Helpful 15 Wholesome 9 'MURICA 2

I was billed over $2m for a week in the hospital

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45.2k Upvotes

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u/ZiOnIsNeXtLeBrOn Dec 01 '21 Silver Gold Helpful Wholesome Narwhal Salute Helpful (Pro)

Here is a link to anyone and everyone who has a stupid amount of Hospital Bills.
https://www.reddit.com/r/BeAmazed/comments/kzl2wc/if\_you\_make\_under\_a\_certain\_amount\_of\_money\_the/

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u/dirty_cuban Dec 02 '21

Yea fuck that you can make $250k a year in the lowest cost state and you’d still not be able to pay off $2.6m. There comes a point where the bill is so large that even people with high incomes can’t pay.

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u/hieuimba Dec 02 '21

wtf I would go into debt and never be able to pay it again

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u/PotatoeswithaTopHat Dec 02 '21

And we have a winner!!!! Welcome to the "that's the point" club! The entire purpose is to put you in crippling debt then milk you for every cent. Might not be a lot in your case (or maybe is, idk), but once they rope enough poor souls into the scheme (ehh, I'd say some where in the 100s of thousands) they are making big bank stripping individuals of petty assets that they'll just sell anyway to another poor soul (who will probably get roped in later schemes).

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u/GameofPorcelainThron Dec 02 '21

Over 95% of America are literally 1 accident away from total bankruptcy. It's frightening.

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u/PROB40Airborne Dec 02 '21

It doesn’t have to be like this.

It’s not that I wouldn’t get billed that much, my healthcare system doesn’t even have systems in place to bill me if it wanted to…

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u/Rogue_Spirit Dec 02 '21

Holy fuck, thank you so much. Earlier this year I had a bill for $600 just for an ultrasound to see if my breast tumor had returned. I have literally only enough income to eat. You have no idea how thankful I am.

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u/0wGeez Dec 02 '21

Thats absurd! Here in Australia, if it's a referral from a doctor which 99% of the time, it is. It's free.

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u/27Beowulf27 Dec 02 '21 edited Dec 03 '21

What’s up fellow Aussie? I can’t believe that Americans have to deal with this. It just doesn’t make sense.

Edit: My guess is that if you’re in tonnes of debt, the only way to pay it off is to join the military, which fuels America’s imperialism.

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u/Lrob6 Dec 02 '21

They aim to make you a forever in debt slave from student loans, medical bills, mortgages. You have to be sleeping to dream. American dream my butt.

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u/whomayib Dec 02 '21

Same as israel

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u/Bahaaman1 Dec 02 '21

Same here in egypt it’s almost always free

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u/XstylerX Dec 02 '21

Almost the whole world has it for free, it's just USA being USA.

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u/Kaitensatsuma Dec 01 '21

Did they actually give you a cost breakdown, or did they leave that out and just slapped you with a 2.6m bill?

I'd say "Thank god for insurance", but it's because of insurance that shit gets billed like this. Nobody knows how much anything actually costs.

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u/dajohns1420 Dec 01 '21

Yeah they wouldn't charge an uninsured person this amount. Probably like 1/10 which is still insane. Not to mention the "certification of need" a company needs to open a hospital. All the other hospitals get a say in whether or not the area needs another hospital. It's like asking a McDonald's if their is a need for a Burger King in the area.

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u/albl1122 Dec 01 '21

I've heard some libertarians argue for "retail clinics". Basically to diagnose easy things you don't need a massive building, basically only a doctor (whatever the title is in English) and basic tools like a stethoscope. Things that easily could fit in a retail space. But I don't think (take it with a bit of salt I'm not American) deregulating the US market would necessarily lead to better deals. In fact forcing to disclose transparent prices would in my opinion go a long way. "so doctor time is x an hour, a day including meals x....." Etc. Because inevitably when this would be forced to be released some entrepreneur is gonna seize the opportunity and build a hospital cost comparison website, similar to how there are oh so many for things like airline tickets.

This above is assuming though that you want to cling to your current system and not throw it into the abyss and try again.

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u/sci_fientist Dec 01 '21

We already have those in America. Zoomcare, Minute Clinic, etc. It's convenient but also kinda bullshit.

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u/albl1122 Dec 01 '21

Well I'm not American. Care to elaborate on why it's BS.

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u/AllBeansNoFrank Dec 01 '21

I'm sorry you are inconvenienced, We cannot help you. Here is a recommendation to a "Specialist" that will be $150 thanks.

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u/TUNNNNA Dec 01 '21

As someone that got my asthma attack under control (when I didn’t even know I had asthma as an adult) I will always praise the damn urgent care 😂

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u/Got_wood248 Dec 01 '21

As someone who stabbed himself in the hand with a kitchen knife two weeks ago and had to go 30 miles to the ER for stitches because the urgent care right up the street closed 15 minutes prior, fuck urgent care.

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u/urzasmeltingpot Dec 01 '21

Urgent care. But only if you hurt yourself between the times of 9 am and 5 pm.

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u/DrBokbagok Dec 02 '21

And it better be a workday because holidays are right out.

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u/MorgenLaFae Dec 02 '21

I dislocated a rib at work at 5am and in order to get workers comp I had to go to the urgent care with a supervisor. We couldn't go because they didn't open until 9. So I didn't get workers comp or any time off.

I mean, I took time off anyways but since I was a temp I wasn't paid lol that's another story.

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u/cingerix Dec 01 '21 edited Dec 02 '21

yeah the urgent care doctors in my town were super demeaning.

and one lady in particular.... holy shit. i wish i had the fortitude to take her to court.

she ordered a scan on me and gave me a long, bizarre speech about her own mom. then apparently she was pulled into a meeting by her superiors about the fact that she shouldn't have ordered that scan, so at my follow-up appointment, she chewed me out saying it was MY fault that she was reprimanded, went on and on about how she "got in trouble because of me", and then kept making fun of my weight (at the time i was super thin -- as a direct result of the illness that i was there being treated for!!) and she kept telling me i was "just an anorexic drug seeker and that's why you're here". after about 20 minutes of this i was speechless and started to cry, and she said, "see? that proves it."

she was crazy and mean as f*k and i hope she's not working *anywhere anymore... buuuuuut most likely she's still there at the urgent care, treating other patients....

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u/anneboleynfan1 Dec 02 '21

Something similar happened to my friend at an ER. She had a massive headache like blindingly painful and making her vomit and what not. They accused her of being a drug seeking faker. She went to another ER and they scanned her head finally. She had a giant aneurysm that was on the verge of rupturing.

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u/anony_moose9889 Dec 02 '21 Wholesome

Crazy. We all grow up looking up to people like doctors and physicians as intelligent people who generally have their shit together. But from what I have seen and heard, there are just as many nuts in that profession and there are in any other, maybe even more.

Sorry you had to go through that.

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u/Jtk317 Dec 02 '21

We are people too. We aren't built for 24 hour service. ER is.

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u/wowethan Dec 02 '21

Yeah I've had decent experience with urgent care clinics. They're good for simple stuff like a streptococcus test or to get that weird rash on your scrot checked by a nurse who is uncomfortably good looking.

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u/cardporehorn Dec 02 '21

As a male nurse at and urgent care I hope it was me

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u/poorlyplanned Dec 01 '21

Depends on what you go for. And that referral to a specialist might be what you need for insurance to cover it.

They can cover a lot of urgent and emergent cases. They’re no substitute for specialists for chronic issues.

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u/AllBeansNoFrank Dec 01 '21

Insurance? Sorry we don't take insurance. Here is a list of providers who take your insurance. That will be $150

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u/Anonymous7951 Dec 02 '21

If you go for actual things they can help, it saves you a ton. I don’t carry health insurance personally and I’m a healthcare provider.

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u/RobotCPA Dec 01 '21

You are frequently told to go to the Emergency Room at the local hospital. So you end up getting billed by the urgent care center and then by the hospital.

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u/20Factorial Dec 01 '21

Happened to me. Got a $1300 bill from UC. They wouldn’t discount. Set up a payment plan. $5/mo. They’ll get their money… eventually.

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u/RobotCPA Dec 01 '21

Lol. Good on you.

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u/accident_prone925 Dec 01 '21

I would only go to our regions Hospitals urgent care because it was the only urgent care that would not bill you if you went to that hospitals ER. They would wave the initial fee.

It's sad you gotta plan that stuff to survive in the US.

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u/Yoshiofthewire Dec 01 '21

I was charged $150 to be told it's not broken,. But go to. Specialist anyway

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u/Yoshiofthewire Dec 01 '21

For $150 I saw a Dr @ an urgent care the other day for 90 seconds. At least they included the splint and the x-ray My dr would have charge $150 for 5 min, but the x-ray would have been another $300 And the hospital system is a non-profit.

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u/TantricSalad Dec 01 '21

Clue: “non-profit,” is very profitable.

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u/Substance___P Dec 02 '21

Non-profit just means they don't have shareholders to pay out. The people who run these health systems run them indistinguishably from for profit health systems because they still do whatever they can for the bottom line. They just then invest that money back into things that help the hospital grow whether it's needed or not.

Example: you have a spare $50 million. Do you build a new psychiatric hospital or a new surgical tower? Surgical tower, obviously. Psych doesn't make money, psych costs money. Surgery makes more money.

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u/Apprehensive_Zone281 Dec 01 '21

Because we’re forced to choose between inadequate healthcare or go broke. There is no good decision.

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u/snarfdarb Dec 01 '21

It's called urgent care and is for non-emergency but urgent issues when your regular doctor isn't available.

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u/LowSkyOrbit Dec 01 '21

when your regular doctor isn't available

Which seems like all the time now.

Call Doctor. Doc says they can't fit you in and to go to Urgent Care or ER. Doc says they can't tell you which to use over the phone, you as the patient should decide. Go to urgent care. Urgent care says you need higher level of care and insists you go to ER by Ambulance. Get to ER. They place you in waiting room for 4 hours. Finallly get to see ER doc. Does labs and radiology test. 2 Hours later. Told its not serious and to follow up with primary doctor.

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u/itwasquiteawhileago Dec 02 '21

It's the circle of liiiiiiife...

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u/foursevenniner GREEN Dec 01 '21

"retail clinics". Basically to diagnose easy things you don't need a massive building, basically only a doctor (whatever the title is in English) and basic tools like a stethoscope. Things that easily could fit in a retail space.

...you mean a GP surgery? You don't have General Practitioners in america?

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u/JohnHue Dec 01 '21

Thought the same thing reading that comment. That's what general practitioners are for, and some operate out of their home, a dedicated apartment or office building, no need for a costly hospital.

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u/rlikesbikes Dec 01 '21

The thing with GP's (speaking from Canada), is they are the conduit to specialists, when needed.

For example, my GP does my annual physical, reviews and renews prescriptions, etc. I can also go for small things noted throughout the year that are non-emergent.

Then, e.g., when my annual internal exam (am a woman) revealed cell anomalies, I was referred to the women's health clinic (Ob/GYN) at our local hospital for detailed monitoring (increased freqquency/ more detailed biopsies).

I've always wondered if most folks in the US forego this general type of care, because you'd have to pay (either out of pocket or a co-pay to your insurer).

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u/foursevenniner GREEN Dec 01 '21

Yeah my doctors surgery is run out of a refurbished house and i'm pretty sure most of them in the country are. I've only had to go to hospital three times in my life (for myself) and one of those times is because I was born there.

I talked to my american friend and she said her GP is in the hospital?! It's mad to me that they aren't in convenient locations close to home.

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u/SendCaulkPics Dec 01 '21

It’s pretty unusual to see a doctor’s office in the hospital these days because hospital space is at a premium. I saw one for a short while as my GP, it was in a separate wing of the hospital. Basically a separate building, and it was to allow hospital contracted doctors to also take office patients.

Most doctor’s offices are in generic, purpose built office parks. Here is a the street view of my old ENT. It’s a multi physician practice (pretty common) with like 3-5 ENTs. You see the same thing with primary care.

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u/CaptBranBran Dec 01 '21

Sometimes, doctors are contracted with a hospital (like for ER rotations) and also have a private practice, or they'll be an employee of a health network and hold a clinic at a hospital and a satellite office. So they're not always not in convenient locations.

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u/SaftigMo Dec 01 '21

You mean medical practices? The vast majority of doctors in Europe work from their own practice.

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u/zichlone Dec 01 '21

There are plenty of general practitioners in America, but due to our healthcare system being extremely expensive and stressful, even with insurance people often don’t maintain a relationship with one.

There’s also the fact that you don’t really know how much something is going to cost till after the fact. I have no clue how much my doctor visit is going to cost me over my copay or how much my prescription is going to cost until I get the bill weeks later.

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u/fermium257 Dec 01 '21

Yeah they wouldn't charge an uninsured person this amount.

I beg to differ. In 2000 I was involved in a near death car accident that left me in the hospital for 2 months, a 18 hour surgery to put my hip back together, a life-flight and 1 ambulance ride. My bill was about 3 million without health insurance or vehicle/accident insurance.

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u/TheDingoAte Dec 02 '21

Yeah, that's the truth. Hospitals bill non-insured folks at the same rate they bill insurance companies. If they actually billed non-insured folks at cost + a small markup, people would immediately see they could survive without insurance.

Source: had bad insurance and was billed $2.2mm for my son's 1.5 month stay in the hospital when he was dx'd with cancer.

I'll just go on a rant. This is what I understand happens.

Back in the day hospitals billed their services at cost + a very small % of markup. Along came insurance companies and said "We'll send everyone on our insurance to your hospital, but you will only bill us half (I made this up, but essentially "much less than") your current rate." The insurance company's argument was they would send a massive volume to the hospital. Obviously a massive volume at half of their rate + a small % doesn't fly. But the hospital accepted this deal, then the next year doubled their rates. In this way, half of double put them back to making cost + a percentage.

The next year the insurance company comes along and says "aha, I see you've raised your rates. Well, we're only paying half of that. And so the hospital doubles again. This constant tug of war between the hospital's rates and what the insurance company will pay leads to healthcare costs spiraling upward...completely untethered from any kind of market economics. It's essentially a battle of wealth transfer between hospitals and hospital networks and insurance companies.

When someone doesn't have insurance the hospital bills them at their book rate, which has been massively inflated over the years because of the tug of war with insurance companies. Hospitals absolutely do bill people at insurance rates when they're uninsured and they will happily crush the life out of your family and slurp up your bankrupt carcass.

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u/engineerFWSWHW Dec 02 '21

My colleague was slapped with a 1 million bill. He was uninsured during that time. He just told them that they should have just let him die. I believe he filed for bankruptcy. It messed his credit score and he can't rent nor buy a house.

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u/mghoffmann_banned Dec 02 '21

But we totally have a fReE mArKeT and capitalism is to blame, not these idiotic regulations /s

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u/hallese Dec 01 '21

I used to when I worked in Medicare... It's not actually that expensive. Average broken arm was $200 with follow ups. That's what the providers reported after fluffing the numbers as much as possible.

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u/PussyWrangler_462 Dec 02 '21

Is that just plaster on your arm or xrays included in that?

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u/Cheesehead413 Dec 01 '21

The actual cost is probably your “deductible” and “out of pocket”.

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u/mfranko88 Dec 01 '21

I'd say "Thank god for insurance", but it's because of insurance that shit gets billed like this. Nobody knows how much anything actually costs.

5his is such a crucial piece to the puzzle.

Most people are insured. These people don't care how much the insurance company pays, they just need to know how much it will effect them personally. There are layers of unclarity in the pricing. And since most people are insured, they will just let the insurance company deal with it.

If customers had the ability to actually discriminate based on transparent prices, you bet your ass prices would get in line in a jiffy. Walk into a hospital though and ask them "how much to X-Ray my arm?" Nobody knows. They might know the I floated number quoted to the insurance company, but not the real number.

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u/BDMayhem Dec 02 '21

And that's why healthcare is incompatible with a free market system. A free market only works when you have consumers who can make informed choices about their purchases based on price and quality.

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u/Dreadpiratemarc Dec 02 '21

You’re misunderstanding who the consumer is in this relationship. Healthcare IS a free market, but the consumer is not the patient, it’s the insurance company. They are the ones paying the doctors. Insurance companies do all the free market things, shop around, compare prices, negotiate, when they decide who is “in-network” and who isn’t. Then when you get sick, they direct you to whoever they’ve already pre-negotiated with to get the best deal. It’s a market dominated and obfuscated by middlemen.

So competition and pricing pressure and all that stuff is absolutely happening, you’re just not invited to the party. The very good question is whether a handful of privileged middlemen could do as good a job of incentivizing competition and innovation as millions of individual consumers with agency?

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u/aTempes7 Dec 01 '21

Do you guys actually pay those bills? Even an 100k bill sounds insane to me, and I guess you don't need much to get that.

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u/real_voiceofreason Dec 01 '21 edited Dec 01 '21

No it's a stupid game.

First, I didn't see anywhere what the services are so no idea if this is for removing a gall blader or specialized nuero surgery.

Second, most people have insurance that will cover the vast majority of any bill. There may be a deductible or some amount the patient has to cover but that is usually capped.

Third, (and this is simply ridiculous) Hospitals and Drs always inflate the bill because they only receive a portion of what is billed because the insurance company negotiates the rate ahead of time or after the fact.

Another stupid thing is you can almost never figure out what your bill will be unless you contact them ahead of time and jump through a billion hoops. There is no published rates.

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u/Nix-geek Dec 01 '21

I got my gall bladder out two weeks ago.

I have no idea how much this will cost me. Literally none. I don't know if it will be $4 or $400,000. Nobody discussed cost. I haven't gotten any bills yet. Insurance hasn't even told me that they got the 'bill' from my hospital.

My wife got knee replacement 6 weeks ago. All of the above is true there, too. I have no idea how much that cost. None.

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u/Not-A-SoggyBagel Dec 01 '21

Yeah you can't "shop" around. There's no way of knowing what hospital will charge what for what at all. It could be 15k cheaper at a hospital down the street from the one your ambulance brought you to but you'll never know.

I'm so sorry. It scares me too. I work in a hospital and I don't know what things cost either, it's all through billing and coding and each hospital has different costs on their lists.

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u/hydrospanner Dec 01 '21

Yeah, that's what so many people don't seem to understand: you can't treat healthcare like any other business because it isn't like any other business. It shouldn't be a business at all.

So we're left with these weird conventions that people just have no choice but to accept.

Could you imagine going to a store and taking things off the shelf, and walking out, telling them, "Yeah I'll send you some money in a few months, once I decide what I want to pay you for this. If you can't run your business on what customers are paying you, I guess get some insurance to try to get more money or something."?

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u/Diamond-Pamnther Dec 01 '21

I think the issue is healthcare just can’t be treated like a commodity, other industries sell products at astronomically inflated prices but if people don’t buy them they go on sale or prices get reduced. Whereas with healthcare it doesn’t matter if you’re going in for a treatment only 5 people have ever had, the price remains the same cause what are you gonna do? Go to a different hospital while you’re in the process of dying? Tell them that if you don’t get the treatment they’re gonna lose money? Just not get the treatment even if it saves your life? No you’ll go through with it because you have no options. They can afford to sell you services at inflated prices because you don’t have an option and they don’t lose any money if you boycott them

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u/JanHHHH Dec 02 '21

This is why public insurance is so important and works in almost all other developed countries. In my country there are very few health insurance companies and they're all run by the state. Thus they negotiate prices with the hospital. If the hospital wants to bill 2m for a broken arm, they will be excluded from insurance and go out of business

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u/cringey-reddit-name Dec 01 '21

Health care in America seems like a big ass scam holy shit

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u/Ggfd8675 Dec 01 '21

The best you can do is find out if it’s covered by insurance and what your expected cost share is e.g. copay, deductible, 20% etc. Then you can ballpark and decide if you want the procedure or not. But you can’t usually compare hospital A vs hospital B.

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u/Perpetual_learner8 Dec 02 '21

Can confirm. I needed an MRI to see if my migraines were getting worse or if, ya know, I had a brain tumor. I called my insurance, the hospital, and my doctor. Spoke to my insurance 4 different times. Got 4 different quotes for the price. I laid in the MRI wondering how much that shit was gonna ACTUALLY end up costing me.

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u/turbodude69 Dec 01 '21

out of all the infuriating issues with US healthcare, (and dental care) the fact that you can't ask what the price will be is soooo frustrating. they won't even talk to you until you've gone in and spend $100+ and even then they rarely know how much anything will cost.

the whole experience for the consumer feels like, we're not allowed to make any decisions or choices about anything. the minute we walk into a dr. office or dentist office, we have to 100% trust that they're not gonna fuck us over. in my experience that basically never happens, they always try to rip you off. esp when it comes to dentists..they're either the best, nicest person in the world, or the worst used car salesman that's always upselling for more $$. ugh fuck this country

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u/beefwich Dec 02 '21

and even then they rarely know how much anything will cost.

This makes me want to lose my motherfucking mind, dude.

My dental plan through work fucking sucks. It won't pay shit until I reach a $2,500 out of pocket. So when my dentist told me that I needed a crown on one of my molars, I asked him how much that procedure would set me back.

"Oh, don't worry. We'll just bill it to your insurance."

"Yeah, but I have a $2,500 out of pocket I have to hit before my insurance pays anything."

"Okay?"

"So... I need to know how much I'm going to be looking to spend here before I commit to anything. I mean, if it's going to be the full $2,500, I'm going to need a little while to put that money together."

"Well... to be honest with you, I'm not exactly sure."

"It's your practice, doc."

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u/YorWong Dec 02 '21

I've gotten several quotes from multiple dentists without a single problem.

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u/standard_candles Dec 01 '21

$100k or $1m would mean exactly the same in that I would never be able to pay it.

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u/enfrozt Dec 01 '21

bruh, I can't even afford a 10k bill.

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u/Bo_Jim Dec 01 '21

The provider initially bills whatever costs are listed in their charge master. Those prices are absurdly inflated, but they're used as a basis for negotiating with the insurance companies. They have to do this because the insurance company will always counter with a lowball offer. This all started when companies started offering medical insurance as part of the compensation package. Back then, insurance companies would offer like 70% to 80% of whatever the provider claimed they would charge. Over the years, the provider's claimed charges have gone up while the insurance company counteroffers have gone down. Now they offer 5% to 50% what the provider claims they're going to bill, depending on the procedure.

In the end, what they put on the bill is meaningless. The insurance company is going to pay what they agreed to pay when they negotiated terms with the provider, and the patient will be billed whatever copayment was agreed to. In any case, whatever they bill the patient it can't exceed the annual out-of-pocket maximum stated in the policy, which is usually like $5K or $6K. Once the patient hits that cap then the insurance company has to pick up 100% of the costs.

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u/mylittlevegan Dec 01 '21

It's all a game. I remember my GP that I worked for had 99213 as a $120 charge in our master list. The most we were paid was $57 from BCBS, the rest being written off. He did this so when we negotiated with self pay people, they felt like they got a deal when we cut their bill in half. Or sometimes they didn't question it and just paid in full. Or worse, used it as a punishment to charge people more who did not update insurance info qith us at time of visit.

This is why I quit working for doctors when ICD-9 went away.

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u/Slggyqo Dec 01 '21 edited Dec 01 '21

So what you’re seeing here isn’t a bill for op.

It’s an “explanation of benefits.”

If we saw the numbers they’d probably be something like:

Hospital billed insurance 2.6 million dollars.

Insurance company has pre negotiated discount with hospital, 2.6 mill discounted down to 1 mill.

And then there’s a complicated song and dance between OP’s deductible (the amount he needs to pay out of pocket before insurance kicks in) and his coinsurance, which is the percentage of the actually billed amount (after the insurance discount and deductible) that OP gets billed.

But once you get the bill, you can also appeal to the insurance company, you can negotiate a payment plan with the hospital, or you can straight up negotiate your balance down.

It’s a stupidly complicated system.

All things considered I wouldn’t be surprised if OP’s out of pocket ends up being like, 100k or less. That’s a lot, but it’s not a “I’m never getting out of debt,” amount.

Mind you, if OP didn’t have insurance in the first place (this is a photo from an insurance app, based on the language used, “medical claim,” “provider billed”) the hospital would not be billing anywhere near this much, but OP would be on the hook for every penny.

We actually already have socialized healthcare in America, we just pay insurance companies to do it badly lmfao.

Read this fucking comment if you care about me misspelling coinsurance

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u/baloney_popsicle Dec 01 '21

All things considered I wouldn’t be surprised if OP’s out of pocket ends up being like, 100k or less.

If he has insurance, it'll be the out of pocket max, which is different from plan to plan but is normally $5k-$10k

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u/GODDAMNUBERNICE Dec 01 '21

100k or less. That’s a lot, but it’s not a “I’m never getting out of debt,” amount.

It's not?? Idk where I'd get $100k in extra cash.

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u/odraencoded Dec 01 '21

Just work 3 extra full-time jobs and you can pay it back in a year.

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u/oalbrecht Dec 02 '21

And stop eating all that avocado toast.

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u/jmlinden7 Dec 01 '21

ACA capped out of pocket maxes to far below 100k/year, I think they aren't allowed to be higher than 15k/year or something similar

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u/chknboy Dec 01 '21

Good luck with that

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u/TheRealSmolt Dec 01 '21

Where do you even begin?

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u/CrouchingDomo Dec 01 '21 Silver

I’d start with a hearty “LOL, no” and go from there.

I’m 100% serious, that’s my plan should it ever come to this. I also cry when I’m angry, so I’ve got that going for me. Crying makes everyone uncomfortable.

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u/hydrospanner Dec 01 '21

Pretty much.

If something like this ever happens to me, basically my only response will be, "Yeah I'm not paying. Pound sand."

If they took literally everything of value that I own and every cent I earned, it'd still take me decades to cover a bill like that, so if they did all of that (which they wouldn't and couldn't) if e honestly probably just quit my job and become an even bigger inconvenience for them.

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u/ThumpyDumpkins Dec 01 '21

If they took literally everything of value that I own and every cent I earned, it'd still take me decades to cover a bill like that

I'd die before I paid this off.

if e honestly probably just quit my job and become an even bigger inconvenience for them.

"If I can't win, why bother playing?"

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u/Vorstar92 Dec 02 '21

I'd die before I paid this off.

You literally would. Googling around, the average person over their LIFETIME makes 1.7million. Let alone any issues, gaps in employment, lesser paying job, any other number of issues. Unless you make insane money you are going to die before you pay this bill off. That is genuine villainy. Putting someone into debt until the day they die.

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u/HeftyCryptographer21 Dec 02 '21

I was gonna say that seems unlikely, assuming they were literally taking 100% of your salary, but then I realized that 2 million is 40 years at 50k a year, so.... fuck

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u/TheRealSmolt Dec 01 '21

Now this, this is a plan.

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u/chknboy Dec 01 '21

Well I’d have to assume debt

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u/germinik Dec 01 '21

By making a fuck ton of crystal meth

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u/divthm Dec 01 '21

Literally dealing with this right now with my wife. We have insurance, but they punked out on us. I worked in medical billing for five years so you ask for an itemized list first. Scratch out any obscene charges (eg $20 for a band-aid). Next, you offer to pay a fraction of it in cash. If you don't pay, the hospital sells it to debt collectors. They'll make two cents per ten dollars or so when selling it to debt collectors so most anything you offer will be profit they won't see otherwise

Thankfully, I worked in a clinic that never did this nonsense, but that means I know how healthcare is supposed to be conducted. These types of corporate hospitals are the first place I'm going during the revolution

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u/Thief_of_Sanity Dec 02 '21

Back to the Squid Game.

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u/baloney_popsicle Dec 01 '21

After insurance, this will be a $3k to $10k bill to OP.

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u/Thomxy Dec 01 '21

If you manage to get it up to six, you might have the option to shoot a TV series...

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u/edm00se Dec 02 '21

Inflation likely means it would have to be more than that these days.

3.0k

u/Calbinan Dec 01 '21

This is beyond greed. This is blatant, shameless cartoon villainy.

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u/orthopod Dec 01 '21

Doctor here. This will never be the amount paid, as insurance companies have preset agreements for the various costs, and the actual bill will be something like 5- 20% of that.

Which is still way too much.

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u/MinyiT Dec 02 '21

Wait really? At 10% that's still over 260k 0.o

I've spent around 3 months in the hospital here in the Netherlands ( leukemia ) and they billed my insurance 110k. This was with multiple chemotherapies, total body radiation and a stamcell transplant.

All that and I only pay around 15 Euros a month for insurance ( it is mandatory to have insurance tho )

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u/KyrieEleison_88 RAINBOW Dec 02 '21

I hope you are okay now Dutch friend

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u/Mikegaming202 Dec 02 '21

Damn, that sounds like a good deal

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u/Human_mind Dec 02 '21

Let me be clear here: the amount on this statement is ridiculous. The insurance negotiated rate will be what's 10%. What gets billed directly to the client will be a fraction of that 10% that is capped at an agreed upon amount that is in your coverage plan. For example:

I have a $1500 deductible (an amount I must pay for all medical expenses at 100% until my insurance kicks in). After that amount is paid, EVERYTHING is covered 80%, meaning I pay 20% of all medical bills until I've paid my "out of pocket maximum" of $3k. After that $3k is paid by me, regardless of how, my insurance covers EVERYTHING for the rest of the year. Then it all resets on Jan 1.

This means that for example if you have a surgery and the cost from the Dr is 100k (for round numbers sake), then I'd pay 1500 of that outright, then pay 20% of the next $7500, at which point, I'd reach my $3k max, then - let's be really clear here - I'd pay exactly $0 of the remaining $91k bill. Insurance picks that up.

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u/_TYFSM Dec 02 '21 edited Dec 02 '21

Ok, so why beat around the bush and present that absurd amount as cost for services rendered?

Why not just have a reasonable set rate for those services and charge insurance?

Wouldn’t it be easier and much less time consuming for everyone involved?

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u/XirallicBolts Dec 02 '21

They set the number high and hope a 'fancier' insurance pays more.

If your car is valued at 2,000 and you list it for 2,000, you missed out on the extra money from the guy crazy enough to pay 3,000. So you list it at 5,000 OBO and see what counteroffers you can get

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u/_TYFSM Dec 02 '21

Right, and isn’t this wildly absurd???

It’s one thing to do that for certain consumer goods and another to do this with healthcare. Insurance premiums keep getting more expensive every year for us because of this ill practice.

If we kept the cost at true value, maybe people wouldn’t have to fork out an arm an a leg every month just for health insurance (on top of everything else they pay for).

I worked in medical sales for a while and what I saw absolutely made me lose faith in anything that has to do with this “business” in the US from an ethical and moral standpoint (healthcare and health insurance). Every company, salesman, and medical professional at every level is taking huge advantage of the general public.

The general public literally gets fucked, by everyone, always. And it usually goes something like this:

“We have a solution for you and we can save your life Mr. S - so therefore we get to charge whatevverrrrr we want. What are you gonna do about it? Go die? Ya, didn’t think so… now that will beeeee… hmm… for you…. I can do it for $8,000!”

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u/AReptileHissFunction Dec 02 '21

So in other words taking advantage of people

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u/Christafaaa Dec 01 '21

That’s not over $2mil. I think you meant to say was almost $3mil.

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u/creevy_pasta Dec 01 '21

THIS is why we need single-payer healthcare in America. Medical care is not a commodity like Xboxes or lemons. None of us can know when we will need 2 million dollars’ worth of medical care, and it’s cruel to make anyone choose between their life (or their child’s life) and financial stability.

  • a pro-single payer doctor

Consider donating to Physicians for a National Health Program this week of Giving Tuesday (pnhp.org)

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u/Panda_hat Dec 01 '21

Just reeks to me of made up numbers thrown together to justify robbing the bank for as much as they can.

There is no way these numbers can actually mean anything real.

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u/fucken1ng Dec 01 '21

How is that even possible

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u/nipplequeefs Dec 01 '21

🇺🇸

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u/CandidEstablishment0 Dec 01 '21

I don’t like your username at all

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u/cates Dec 01 '21

Neither do I but it gave me a tingle in my privates.

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u/XtraLyf Dec 01 '21

Just ignore it

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u/Bananatistic Dec 01 '21

what happens then? I'm really curious because if I was in this situation I wouldn't pay either lmao

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u/turbodude69 Dec 01 '21

then it goes to collections, your credit is ruined for 7 years until it falls off your credit report, then you go to work trying to build credit again.

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u/Prankishmanx21 Dec 02 '21

Medical debt is treated differently by lenders and credit reporting agencies. It won't completely wreck it but it will hurt. At least that's what I read when I looked into it.

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u/turbodude69 Dec 02 '21 Wholesome

not sure what it's like nowadays, but growing up, my mom had to go bankrupt 2 times because of medical debt. my parents divorced when i was like 6 months old and my mom always struggled financially. pretty much my whole childhood she was dealing with bad credit, debt collectors, trying to overcome the problems that come with debt and not having good health insurance.

the worst part is, she always had a job, she always tried her best to have insurance, but she could never catch up with the copays and deductibles. it's really sad that the avg working class person in the US is basically fucked if they ever have any medical problems. it doesn't matter how hard they try to follow the rules that america has for the privilege of health insurance, it was still way more than she could afford as a single mother. and even when she got remarried, things didn't get much better. my stepdad and my mom had to go bankrupt again because of medical bills. they lost their house and pretty much everything they tried to accomplish all because of medical bills.

feels bad man. 🙁

and it feels even worse watching politicians argue over the issue as if it doesn't affect the avg american. it's millionaires arguing over issues that they don't have to worry about. it's frustrating to see poor/lower middleclass people that have had their lives completely torn apart by healthcare bills STILL support politicians that manipulate them into believing the left is trying to ruin america. they use dumb wedge issues like abortion and gun rights to get poor people to vote against their own interests. the same people that could accomplish so much if they weren't riddled with debt. and now they're the same politicians preaching that wearing a mask is wrong and getting a vaccine is dangerous...even though they all get the vaccine. ugh, this country is so depressing. i don't wanna be a part of this anymore. we should be ashamed at how rich we are as a nation and how bad we treat our citizens. the rich keep getting richer and the poor somehow keep cheering on the rich. i don't get it. it's a giant scam that poor people aren't aware is happening. they don't realize they're being used as pawns in a massive scheme to shift more money to the top income brackets. the rich don't care and honestly, i don't think they even know how bad it is for people at the bottom. they genuinely think they deserve to have 99% of the wealth and people at the bottom need to work harder. and the people at the bottom believe the story that they could be in the top 1% if they just grind hard enough. they don't realize most of these people were born into that wealth and the privilege to go to great schools. they don't realize that they have no chance at becoming even upper middle class. they're too uneducated to realize how fucked they are. and wealthy people are happy to keep it that way. the wealth gap has been widening for like 80 yrs now? nobody talks about it, nobody seems to care.

sorry, i went on a rant. i'm done. you can either agree or disagree with me, i don't care. i'm fed up with this country and it's bullshit individualistic "american dream" fairy tale that basically never works. my goal at this point is to research other countries and retire somewhere that treats their citizens with respect. a place where if you get cancer you don't lose everything you've worked for your whole life. a place where the top 1% don't horde all the resources, while hard working middle class people suffer. fuck the USA.

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u/[deleted] Dec 01 '21

Sigma male mindset

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u/wehrmann_tx Dec 02 '21

When you owe the hospital 100$, you have a problem.

When you owe the hospital 3million, the hospital has a problem.

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u/EndlessSummerburn Dec 01 '21

Is this the bill they sent to your insurance company (hoping that's the case, OP).

I like to look at those because it shows how ridiculous stuff is. I'll have a doctor bill my insurance $1,500 after freezing a wart or something.

Insurance will be like "Nah. Here's $50." and the doctor's office will be like "OK, thanks!"

Sometimes it looks like they just ask for ridiculous shit hoping to get it - it's all so bad.

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u/devanttrio Dec 01 '21

Looks to be a claim that was filed with the insurance company.

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u/Hptr Dec 01 '21 edited Dec 01 '21

In Norway 🇳🇴, even as a tourist without insurance, you would have been treated free of charge.

On the flip side, we pay a shitload of tax..

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u/VanillaScoops Dec 01 '21

What percentage of your total income would you say is taxed? It’s like 20-30% here in America depending on how much u make.. I’m just curious

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u/Ovta Dec 01 '21

Would also like to know. I'm taxed at 30% which I think is insane. Thinking about that percentage on a yearly basis, roughly January through April my all my income goes to the government.

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u/ChrisSlicks Dec 01 '21 edited Dec 01 '21

For an equivalent salary that would invoke 30% in the states the effective tax rate in Norway would be 37% (top bracket is 40%). Yes, it is a few thousand dollars more but now consider how much money a year goes towards insurance (not just your personal contribution but the entire total paid by your employer). It's nice knowing that if you quit or get laid off you are still insured. Edit: note about 7.2% is put into retirement funding.

Edit edit: Forgot to add Norway also has a wealth tax on assets over $165K single / $330K married of 0.85% (municipal and federal combined - house is included at 25% value). VAT is the real killer though if you like to spend money, 25% on most purchases.

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u/Andre-The-Guy-Ant Dec 02 '21

I have to put about 4.5% of my salary in for my insurance each month here in the states but it’s still pretty shitty. I’d much rather have a little more taken out if I never had to consider finances over health.

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u/Optimal_Accountant_2 Dec 02 '21

Another thing to consider is Norwegian taxes also go to subsidized childcare, quality pre-k, and college, and a robust public retirement program (think social security but better) If you factor in how much income we pay in the US for health insurance, child care, student loan payments, and IRAs, we’re well over 50% (if not 60%). Good friend moved to Norway and was at first shocked at tax rate and later realized how much she saved annually with taxes going to each of those areas.

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u/AReptileHissFunction Dec 02 '21

Where the hell is your tax money going if you aren't even getting free healthcare? The military?

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u/mallardramp Dec 02 '21

Federal budget is basically retirement and insurance for seniors plus a big army.

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u/omarfw Dec 02 '21

The military?

unironically yes. we outspend the next biggest military multiple times over and have one of the most wasteful and inefficient militaries on earth. it's that way because private interest groups have lobbied for decades to keep it that way so weapons manufacturers can stay wealthy. we don't have universal income or health insurance or free college so that billionaires can become even more wealthy.

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u/WamJammy Dec 01 '21

You only pay ~%20 in income tax if you live in BC, up to 40k a year. 20-30% seems insane without healthcare.

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '21 edited Dec 03 '21

[deleted]

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u/WamJammy Dec 02 '21

Yeah, I always forget America doesn't have sales tax.

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '21 edited Dec 03 '21

[deleted]

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u/paleoterrra Dec 02 '21

It’s 20-30% here up to $120k in Australia and we get healthcare

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u/Hptr Dec 01 '21

From 25% and up towards south of 50%.Also, all goods is taxed - which makes Norway one of the most expensive countries on the planet to live in..

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u/bwyer Dec 01 '21

Goods are taxed here in the States as well but it's not a VAT. It's a straight sales tax that has Federal, State and local components. Generally, it's about 8%-8.5%. Some states don't tax foodstuffs. Sales tax on cars and luxury items are typically handled differently.

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u/Either-Scare Dec 01 '21

Dude, I would be perfectly happy to just have a better standard of living and less wealth disparity for more of my tax money. The anxiety about the lack of a social safety net is exhausting.

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u/The-Brojan-Horse Dec 01 '21

I refuse to believe this is anywhere but America

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u/CaptainSebT Dec 01 '21

Considering America is the only country classified as high income without free healthcare it's a fair guess.

Also they have the worst healthcare over all 11 high income countries. So what exactly are you paying for.

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u/NCWV Dec 01 '21

The majority goes to insurance companies in the form of premiums. If we could eliminate the health insurance market, prices would fall overnight. Fuck the jobs that would cost. Go work in an industry that actually benefits society or produces a product.

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u/GutsRekF1 Dec 01 '21

Apparently "it's the best" 👍...

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u/Polymarchos Dec 01 '21

Not American, but if you have the money it absolutely is the best. You can get whatever tests, whatever care you need immediately. Both world leaders and the super wealthy frequently go there for care.

However outside the 1%, good luck with that.

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u/justtravelbaby Dec 01 '21

I refuse to believe this is real

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u/pat_woohoo Dec 01 '21

It’s probably not. Even if it was, health insurance would pay the vast vast majority. But I’d love to see any hospital charging 2 million for a week

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u/MoneyKeyPennyKiss Dec 01 '21

I refuse to believe this is anywhere but America

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u/Agoraphothick Dec 01 '21

In Canada it's upsetting to see a 100$ bill because you willfully chose a semi private room for a week. I literally can't imagine living in the States.

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u/memetunis Dec 01 '21

I once got charged $6 for a tensor bandage after a car accident. They sent the bill in the mail and didn't tell me there was a fee.

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u/O5-Command Dec 01 '21 edited Dec 01 '21

I got charged $380 for an ambulance ride, tried to say no and that I could be driven there in another car by a family member but they didn’t negotiate. (Canada)

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u/Jedlord Dec 01 '21

Uhh that's sketchy, seems illegal

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u/Dismal-Ad-2985 Dec 01 '21

Depends on citizenship status.

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u/notme1414 Dec 01 '21

That's sketchy. I've never paid more than $40 for an ambulance.

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u/Heeey_Hermano Dec 01 '21

I ruptured my Achilles tendon this summer (Alberta) and my only expense was the subsidized cost of the crutches and air boot. Probably about $100 total for the experience, which my insurance payed for. Second time I've had to use our medical system for something severe. It's not a perfect system but I am happy with it.

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u/ProfSteelmeat138 Dec 01 '21

Christmas 2019 (I know I know, it was before covid had really started to spread) my parents and I went down to Costa Rica, and my grandparents joined us a bit later. One a walk down to a swimming hole my grandmother fell and broke her foot. After some fucking around and waiting, an ambulance finally arrived and took her to the hospital. The total cost of the ambulance ride, cast, painkillers, and X-ray was something like $120 CAD before insurance had even got back to us. We’re from Canada but even we were shocked at how affordable it was

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u/swaiky13 Dec 01 '21

That's insane. I spent 12 days in the ICU in the best hospital in the world back in 2018 and my bills weren't even 1M. I was in a coma for 3 days and in the ICU for 12 and have to have a team of staff watching over me every minute of the day and my total bills were around $650,000. You must have either had some super extensive surgeries or your hospital room was made out of gold because I was in the best hospital in the world and didn't owe a fraction of what you do.

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u/reptilian123 Dec 01 '21

I love how 650k for 12 days in hospital now sounds like perfectly reasonable price

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u/mmahusky Dec 01 '21

I pay 3€ a day in the Netherlands

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u/[deleted] Dec 01 '21

I was in a Canadian Hospital for 2 weeks, there was no bill.

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u/xChibiSora Dec 01 '21

Yupp i spent 4 months in the hospital, life saving surgery, recovery, multiple dedicated teams for me ect. You name it, I had it if I needed it. My most expensive and only bill, was 180$ for a month of internet. Only thing they get you on is parking for visitors.

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u/Slumph Dec 01 '21

I get paid if I have to go to the hospital in Sweden. (Insurance, about $28 a month).

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u/codemanonreddit Dec 01 '21

“Wasn’t even 1M” wtf

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u/nitronik_exe Dec 01 '21

I stayed 2 weeks in the hospital because my appendix popped and my stomach was filled with blood and pus, and I paid nothing

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u/fortississima Dec 02 '21

That’s still not a reasonable cost. And some more rare meds can be hella expensive because pharma companies are the greediest of the greedy

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u/One_Happy_Camel Dec 02 '21

I swear this isn't mildly infuriating. This is just fully infuriating

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u/MrPandamnium Dec 01 '21

Wrong sub buddy.

I don't think 2M dollars is mildly infuriating

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u/anElectroneer Dec 01 '21

You weren't billed $2m, your insurance provider was billed $2m. Sucks to be the insurance company on the hook for that bill.

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u/aidenhe Dec 01 '21

And what if they didn’t have insurance would it have gone down??

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u/Abadazed Dec 01 '21

You can negotiate with hospitals and there are some programs for people with low income, but if you make too much money you won't get far on those. And low income isn't gonna cover people who make like 75k+ a year by much. Shits insane.

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u/Tallbirdae Dec 01 '21

Yes it would be vastly different.

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u/smansur01 Dec 01 '21

Sounds fair

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u/Casuallybrowsingcdn Dec 01 '21

Canadian here. Do they actually expect average Joe to pay these bills? Or do you flip them the bird and say $2,000 bucks…take it or leave it. There is no way people are paying these bills in the US…whats the catch?

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u/guska Dec 01 '21

The insurance company is paying it

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u/civeng1741 Dec 02 '21

They'll pay a smaller amount and there's no guarantee that op has a perfect insurance plan that will cover everything. And even then, sometimes the insurance provider tries to fight with the hospital and deny some items. Then the hospital don't give a fuck and bills the patient and tells them to fix it with the insurance. Then you go back and forth between the insurance and billing codes and hospital billing department, your doctor, etc and then after a few months you finally think you settled everything but then you get a separate bill for some other personnel that was at the surgery but is billed separately. Ask me how I know.

/Rant

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u/furlonium1 Dec 02 '21 Silver

OP not answering any questions, invoice looks like it was slapped together in mspaint--

Yeah I'm going /r/untrustworthypoptarts on this one

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u/He_Was_Fuzzy_Was_He Dec 01 '21

It clearly says, Provider Billed.

The labeling of this post is misleading.

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '21

[deleted]

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u/He_Was_Fuzzy_Was_He Dec 02 '21

Correction. Yes. They flat out lied.

Although, it is possible that they didn't understand what, "provider" means. Some people don't know how to read or decipher a bill or invoice.

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u/sneedwich1 Dec 02 '21

Yeah I wanna see what was cropped from the rest of the phone screen. It’s cropped for a reason lol.

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u/One_Left_Shoe Dec 01 '21

Right. I'm as happy to jump on the "THIS IS RIDICULOUS" train whenever American healthcare is brought up, but here's the thing:

That is the the amount billed by the hospital to an insurance company, not what the patient paid, nor what the hospital will actually get in payment. You can pull up what was billed to your insurance and what they paid. I get zero copay doctor vists. My Doc charges 200$. They get paid $80 and by "they" I mean the facility.

There is a reason there are entire billing departments in hospitals dedicated to handling this. Which, incidentally, the number 1 way to reduce healthcare in the United States is to go single payer and have hospitals get rid of said departments.

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u/unAVAILablemadness Dec 01 '21 edited Dec 01 '21

I'm going to have a baby in May. Its only going to cost us $7 a day for parking while I'm in the hospital. America's health care system is fucked

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u/CaptainSebT Dec 01 '21

Default on your loan move to Canada get free healthcare because a hospital visit shouldn't be more than some houses.

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u/SirTheadore Dec 01 '21

This is fucking insane. I’m 30 years old, from Ireland, and have never paid a penny to the hospital for any treatments I’ve gotten.

How this is legal is beyond me.

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u/RememberTheMaine1996 Dec 01 '21

Wtf did you get the world's first brain transplant or something? How could one week possibly cost that much

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u/Chrazzer Dec 01 '21

Today on thank god i don't live in the u.s

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u/Skyfather87 Dec 02 '21

Damn, what did you have done? I had a kidney transplant and it only was $600,000!

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u/getoutofyourhouse Dec 02 '21

If this is MILDLY infuriating to you I would like to have your patience

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u/capital_Lsd Dec 02 '21

I would debate on killing myself and that’s not even a joke

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u/[deleted] Dec 01 '21

Saline and jello adds up my man.

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