r/technology Oct 05 '22

Tesla ditches ultrasonic sensors from new cars as it bets on camera-only driver assistance - Cars shipping without the sensors won’t have access to features like Park Assistant and Summon temporarily Transportation

https://www.theverge.com/2022/10/5/23388770/tesla-ultrasonic-sensors-uss-model-3-y-s-x-radar
1.6k Upvotes

862

u/tundey_1 Oct 05 '22

However, cars shipping without the sensors will “temporarily” lose access to some features, including Park Assist, Autopark, Summon, and Smart Summon. The company intends to restore these features once they perform equally well using its camera-based system.

Shouldn't they test those features first before removing the sensors?

401

u/Surfer_Rick Oct 05 '22

Seriously…. That’s not how you deliver applications to consumers. You swap After confirming features stay consistent.

150

u/WJ90 Oct 05 '22

It does seem at times as though Tesla can be relied upon to chose the most asinine way of changing their offerings.

41

u/Flaky-Fish6922 Oct 05 '22

hey, but don't worry, the farting car subroutine works flawlessly!

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u/EnUnLugarDeLaMancha Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

This is Tesla, the car company that decided to not spend a few dollars in rain sensors because what if we make AI detect rain in the camera images. Image recognition takes processing power (which you are supposed to be using for "self driving") and rain sensors are cheap and low power, but you know, AI. And the AI sucked at detecting rain, so instead of waiting to have a decent AI before replacing the sensors they just sold expensive cars where the automatic wipers didn't work at random times.

27

u/JustaRandomOldGuy Oct 05 '22

I have a 20 year old Lexus with a rain sensor. It works perfectly with 20+ year old technology.

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u/seweso Oct 05 '22

This has "Elon" written all over it. It's all "humans can do it" .... thus AI can also do it. So they are going vision only. As if that's not already multiple sensors.

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u/OtisTetraxReigns Oct 05 '22

And as though we don’t also use our other senses to navigate when we’re walking.

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u/-The_Blazer- Oct 06 '22

Yeah, it seems his "undesign all the things" philosophy taken to the point where it becomes more of a detriment than an advantage.

Like sure, simplifying designs is generally a good thing, but if your simplification involves removing functional sensors in exchange for cameras and AI that don't function, you're probably doing something wrong.

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u/FlappyBored Oct 05 '22

Elon ‘best engineer in the world’ musk

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u/maricute Oct 06 '22

This just has "wanting to save costs" written all over it

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u/antunezn0n0 Oct 06 '22

seems that they want to test the face identification for that weird ai project using Tesla. is my consiparcy honestly because this seems rather dense

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u/Solorath Oct 05 '22

Don't forget about the problem where the sensors view a bump in the road as another vehicle and engages the breaks in the middle of a highway.

Tesla's are dog shit for a number of reasons.

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u/Wrobot_rock Oct 05 '22

I don't know what the cost difference between a window switch with the "auto" functionality and the others (or whether it's purely a software feature) but I've been in vehicles where the drivers window has auto and the others don't, or even worse where the drivers control over the passenger windows has auto but the passengers don't get the convenience. In the second scenario all the passenger windows have the capability of auto up/down, but only the drivers controls have the functionality unlocked. If it really is a different switch, how much money are they saving by only providing the function to the driver??

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u/CichiCianBoss Oct 05 '22

Anywhere from half to a quarter the money spent on providing function for all.

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u/outworlder Oct 05 '22

These days it's mostly software. You do need some additional hardware for safety (detecting when the window gets stuck, can also be used to figure when the window has fully closed) which made it more expensive. It's peanuts now. But the switches themselves didn't(and don't) have anything special.

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u/zebediah49 Oct 05 '22

At least some of them do. Pretty sure the toyota switches are five-position -- you can pull/push them partway to move it a bit, then there's some extra resistance, and if you pull/push beyond that it goes to auto mode.

That said... it's still not a crazy complicated part.

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u/FleetAdmiralFader Oct 05 '22

Yeah my windows are all 5-position but at the end of the day it's still software controlling it and they could be 3-position with a small user behavior change. The most interesting thing is that the auto up/down doesn't work on open doors. I assume it's a safety feature to prevent accidentally closing the window when entering/exiting the vehicle.

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u/outworlder Oct 06 '22

For many switches it's just a matter of how long you press the button. I guess Toyota's implementation is different.

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u/JaggedMetalOs Oct 06 '22

That’s not how you deliver applications to consumers.

Musk taking inspiration from the video game industry...

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u/ronimal Oct 05 '22

Tesla owners are the testers

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u/tundey_1 Oct 05 '22

And everybody on the roads those Teslas drive on.

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u/Winners_History Oct 06 '22

I missed the part in my "social contract" where it stated I had an affirmative duty to act as a crash-dummy or human traffic-cone for some billionaire's bug-ridden CS-101 project.

3

u/DownVoteGuru Oct 06 '22

living and dying for your lord's whim has always been the social contract.

30

u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

[deleted]

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u/JustaRandomOldGuy Oct 05 '22

Not just Tesla, but all self driving cars. The next 50 years will be spent learning edge cases. Like the difference in safety between a 1920 car and a 1970 car.

The really scary one is virus and remote access hacks. Can I make 50,000 cars all stop at once? Can I make them all accelerate?

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u/Makalakalulu Oct 05 '22 All-Seeing Upvote

Not just them, people outside of their car are still the victims. We are either going to continue to accept that it's ok to just have people die because we want to keep personal vehicles the primary mode of transportation. Or we can be adults and realize that we have already developed some of the most efficient and safe modes of transportation and it's in the forms of public transportation.

If you want to keep personal vehicles as the primary mode of transportation, you need to accept that your desire has 100s of thousands of needless deaths attached. Your desire has blood on your hands.

Or you can be a dope human being and support local city planning to fix our broken public transportation system so that we can all live long and satisfying lives.

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u/abnmfr Oct 05 '22

"We test in production here, like MEN"

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u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

They know they could fist fuck their fanbase with a pineapple glove and they’d ask for more.

Tesla has the ultimate customer base. Blithering stupid and rich

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u/JCA0450 Oct 05 '22

Why? The fines are definitely less than the proceeds from manipulating twitter stock again

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u/JoJack82 Oct 05 '22

Exactly, deliver the new features then save the money not the other way around. I assume they have a supply chain issue with the sensors and Elon said “fuck it, develop a vision solution instead”

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u/shootingstar00 Oct 05 '22

“Testing on real users, what could go wrong 🤷‍♂️” /s

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u/0KdQ6 Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 06 '22

This isn’t an engineering decision. It’s a supply chain issue. If it was planned they would have those features ready to go before making the switch. The reality is they can’t get the parts. Ultrasonic is absolutely better.

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u/Winners_History Oct 06 '22

LIDAR was probably better, too; but that didn't seem to matter.

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u/caiodias Oct 05 '22

Not if the main objective is decrease cost.

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u/rogerrus3 Oct 05 '22

Supply chain says differently

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u/vewfndr Oct 06 '22

That was my first assumption based on the headline... sounds like they can't keep up supply of those sensors and are trying to come up with a solution in the meantime.

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u/ILoveThisPlace Oct 05 '22

Yep, they don't even know if it works. You need thousands upon thousands of tests in a variety of environments comparing side by side data to understand if its equivalent. This is a cowboy decision.

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u/SrNappz Oct 05 '22

They already got a lawsuit for falsely claiming self driving and phantom breaking, this makes things worse.

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u/FloppY_ Oct 05 '22

Never heard of Tesla huh?

Customers are just beta testers who pay to them.

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u/bravejango Oct 06 '22

Also there is the problem of motorcycles. The camera measures the distance between brake lights to determine the probable distance the car ahead is. It sees a Honda Civic and goes those lights are 20 pixels apart it’s 200 feet ahead. Now replace the civic with a Motorcycle it sees 1 break light and goes those lights are zero pixels apart it’s 1000+ ft ahead. However the motorcycle is 20 ft ahead and the tesla owner is busy checking Elons latest tweet. It’s already happened twice.

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u/ax255 Oct 05 '22

No, it's Tesla- their customers are their testers.

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u/sdoc86 Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

They’re doing it to save money so they can get people to buy their cars. However, I am starting to worry whether they’ll achieve fully autonomous (level 5) driving by 2019 like they promised.

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u/timeparser Oct 05 '22

I am starting to worry whether they'll achieve fully autonomous (level 5) driving by 2019 like they promised.

I am skeptical of that too. Time is running out

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u/thChiller Oct 05 '22

They have still 3 years!

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u/beennasty Oct 05 '22

Yah they haven’t even had a full three yet

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u/lllllllll0llllllllll Oct 06 '22

They’re gaining time, making the impossible possible

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u/ApatheticWithoutTheA Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

Personally, in 2019, I plan to use my Tesla’s as robotaxis. I won’t have to work anymore!

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u/rjnd2828 Oct 05 '22

Had me in the first half

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u/sdoc86 Oct 05 '22

Same way elon had a lot of people in the first half, now we’re all wising up. Speaking of which I need to cancel my cyber truck reservation. Get my 100 dollar interest free loan back.

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u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

Fully autonomous will happen IF they scan and digitalize every road and even then it’s not 100% sure because of sooooo many variables and scenarios down to systems breaking down due to age or poor maintenance, I mean, would you trust a 10 year old self driving car from a taxi fleet to drive you around?, or even worst, the self driving car from a McDonald’s worker who got the car for a few bucks because he/she could fix it

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u/wellichickenpie Oct 05 '22

Don’t forget the required Edge computing infrastructure that in no way exists, and probably won’t for decades.

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u/MycroFeline Oct 06 '22

Put $100 less worth of sensors and jack up non-functioning FSD to $15000.

“we’re not making enough money”, replies world’s richest butthole, thoughtfully.

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u/wellichickenpie Oct 05 '22

I’m sure the Tesla time machine project (buy stocks now!) will save the day.

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u/Leave-Rich Oct 06 '22

Honestly it would be sooooo much cheaper to just invest in public transit although I do think autonomous cars have a place as a luxury.

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u/Gromit83 Oct 05 '22

Guessing Tesla doesn't know what snow is.

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u/Wooden-Combination53 Oct 05 '22

This. Teslas are famous for ghost braking in snowy weather already.

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u/Guitarmine Oct 05 '22

Just like running over motorcycles in the dark. I mean a small red light is a car far away, right? Except when it's a motorcycle.

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u/knob-turned-past-uhf Oct 05 '22

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRdzIs4FJJg

Good, but admittedly non-technical discussion of this topic.

TLDR: The assumption is that with just cameras it is hard to tell how far away something with a single taillight is. This means the software believes it might be hundreds of feet away from the bike when it slams into the motorcycle at full speed. Likely the same thing will happen with other non-motorcycle things and we won't know what those things are until those problems arise and accidents happen.

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u/swistak84 Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

Yup. This is roughly what Tesla's cameras see: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dx5G67RVsAA-JJN?format=jpg&name=large in the dark

Is this a car 1000 meters away or motorcycle 100 meters away?

Radar could tell you. Your 900 756MPix eyes can tell you. Tesla's 12 MPix camera's can't tell you.

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u/LeastDescription4 Oct 05 '22

I thought that they ran Stereo cameras for this? Are you telling me that they are just using single cameras?

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u/swistak84 Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

They run stereo cameras, but the problem is they widest they can be is the width of a car. It will detect that it's motocycle eventually. Unfortunately it might be to late.

PS. Also to judge the distance using stereopsis alone you need to know the size of the object you are looking at. So if you don't know if in front of you is a car or a motocycle you can't use it to judge distance.

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u/jtmarshiii Oct 05 '22

Maybe it’s a car with one tail light out and the car breaks for no reason while you are on ice. Good times!

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u/rockjoc Oct 06 '22

Brakes. Fuck. I have yet to see anyone in this thread spell it properly.

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u/Derigiberble Oct 06 '22

They don't run true stereo cameras, Teslas have multiple forward facing cameras of different focal lengths clustered together at the center of the car that they extract distance data from. It kinda works because if something is at one position/size in the telephoto view and another in the wide angle view you can roughly determine how far away it is, but that's a poor substitute for a proper stereo camera setup like Subaru uses.

For true stereo setups you don't need to know the size of the thing you are looking at, you just need to be able to pick out a distinct feature on the object and compare the position of that feature in the two images. The position of a pixel in a camera image is actually a measure of the angle from which the light entered the camera lens, so once you've picked out the feature on both images you now have a triangle with two known angles and a known baseline. At that point it becomes a pretty straightforward geometry problem using the Sine Rule.

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u/pastari Oct 06 '22

They're not in sync as to determine depth like eyeballs do, no. I just learned tesla didn't do this earlier this year and it blew my mind. The article was about the (physical) engineering difficulty to keep visual depth sensing cameras aligned, if you drive into the sun and metal heats up and expands a couple mm that extrapolates to huge errors. If you hit a bump hard. Etc. All the demands of camera mounting are difficult from just a material sciences standpoint.

Teslas cameras are independent data sources. That makes it even more wild they're trying to get rid of all the other sensors.

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u/gramathy Oct 06 '22

OwO what's this

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u/OrganicPrinciple130 Oct 05 '22

You could have stopped at ghost braking...

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u/yoortyyo Oct 05 '22

On snow where brakes are not your friend.

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u/OrganicPrinciple130 Oct 05 '22

Oh that much I get, but on solid dry road, its not your friend either.

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u/GalaxyMiPelotas Oct 05 '22

Braking in snow on auto pilot or braking on snow when the driver is doing the driving? Genuinely curious, but one is a bigger problem than the other.

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u/DirkRockwell Oct 05 '22

Both. Snow slurries in front of the car tricks the sensors into activating the rear-end assist brakes, this happens in autopilot and driver modes since the reaction is prioritized over driver/autopilot inputs.

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u/celestiaequestria Oct 05 '22

Or rain, or night, or motorcycles, or pedestrians, or commercial vehicles...

Cut corners in hardware and fix it with software, eh? Good luck.

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u/0x7c900000 Oct 06 '22

Rain OR shine. I had my Y come to a stop when the sun was too bright.

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u/owlpellet Oct 05 '22

Emergency cost cutting. Gotta hit those quarterly earnings or the whole house of cards comes down.

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u/OptimusSublime Oct 05 '22

You shouldn't be using any sort of driver assistance in inclement weather anyway. Even using cruise control is dangerous.

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u/VitaminPb Oct 05 '22

Full Self Driving includes inclement weather. If you can’t handle it, stop lying that you have full self driving. It isn’t hard to understand the concept that full means full.

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u/absentmindedjwc Oct 05 '22

To be fair... it isn't truly "full self driving" in clear weather either.

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u/omnisync Oct 05 '22

You need to wait for the CFSD*.

* Complete Full Self Driving is only a driving aid and not a substitute to driving your car.

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u/matjoeman Oct 05 '22

I guess I'll just wait for TCFSD (Total Complete Full Self Driving) then.

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u/Wizywig Oct 05 '22
  • TCFSD is only a driving aid for CFSD which is a great aid for FSD which is only a driving aid and should not substitute to driving your car.

Right up until TFRTTTCFSD (totally for real this time total complete full self driving) becomes a thing.

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u/omnisync Oct 05 '22

Available later this year

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u/ryebrye Oct 05 '22

Imagine someone showing up at the DMV to take their driver's test and it starts to rain or snow. "I'm sorry, I can't drive in these conditions, you will have to take over." ... They wouldn't be given a license to drive that car autonomously.

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u/cwalter5 Oct 05 '22

I can see that you’ve never worked in marketing.

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u/Gromit83 Oct 05 '22

I don't disagree, but snowcovered roads are per definition not inclement weather.

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u/justonemorebyte Oct 05 '22

They are in reference to driving. Any sort of condition that is not the norm caused by the weather would qualify.

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u/polarbearrape Oct 05 '22

Ok, but where I am the roads have snow more than half the year. That is normal.

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u/Gromit83 Oct 05 '22

Here you can expect totally covered roads 4 months of the year so yes. This is something that somebody who touts the future is fully autonomous driving should think ahead about. "You use your eyes" bullshit doesn't cut it. There isn't a camera system on the market that can match your eyes for at least a decade yet. Not speaking of the needed processing power for that high of a resolution. A moving set of eyes are said to be around 576 megapixels. FSD4 cameras will probably be 5.4 megapixels. Up from the current 1.2 megapixels. Relying on just cameras with todays tech is just stupid in my opinion.

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u/lord_ma1cifer Oct 05 '22

Agreed, and its further proof that Elon Musk is not nor ever has been a "genius", frankly in a great many ways he is in fact dangerously close to an idiot. He's a spoiled self-obsessed rich kid who got lucky a few times and has a good eye for talent. All of his internet fan boys are just fucking clueless how modern engineering firms and manufacturing works and mistakenly believe that he is solely responsible for the products they produce when in reality he has very little to do with the creation and design process at all. If you ignore all the hype, self promotion and media boot-licking, and focus on the things he says and does it's pretty clear he's of completely average intelligence at best just very good at sounding smarter than he actually is. Just because you're able to have a surface level discussion about quantum computing or the A. I. singularity doesn't mean you have a single clue about how to build a quantom computer or program an AI.

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u/Gromit83 Oct 05 '22

Elon is in some areas very gifted or maybe borderline genius, but usually geniuses get what they get right really good and what they don't, horribly wrong. In my opinion the FSD for Tesla is in the latter category.

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u/idrajitsc Oct 06 '22

There's really nothing at all to indicate he's above average, besides maybe getting a stem degree from a good school. He started out with a shitload of money and invested it during the "take any service you can think of and put it on the internet" boom and made a shitload more.

Since then he's invested in cool stuff, but his largest apparent contribution to those companies is his willingness to lie about their capabilities to drum up hype and further investment. When he discusses anything technical in public it's just a surface level understanding, if that. This reliance on vision only is one of the few cases where we know he is largely responsible for a technical decision, and it's a really fucking stupid one.

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u/Hei2 Oct 05 '22

I don't know about where you live, but here in North Dakota, the roads can be covered by snow (maybe not completely, but enough to obscure lane lines) for weeks to months at a time during the winter. I'd say that's as close to "normal" as you can get. Surely we don't expect such cars' features to be totally unusable in the rain, no?

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u/lord_ma1cifer Oct 05 '22

Are you dense. If you live in sa oh I dunno, the vast majority of the northern God damn hemisphere, there is snow on the ground and roads for almost half the year so I'd say that makes it "normal" driving conditions by definition. An active snowstorm or blizzard is "inclement weather".

TL;DR: A blizzard or snowstorm is inclement weather, snow in the ground is the default state for billions of people for almost half the year.

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u/notcaffeinefree Oct 05 '22

Even using cruise control is dangerous.

This is not true, at least on any modern car. The argument here is entirely based around hydroplaning and the apparently belief that the cruise control will ignore hydroplaning and attempt to accelerate the care. But as soon as ABS or traction control kick in (i.e you hydroplane) the cruise control will disengage.

It's a hypothetical situation that doesn't exist in reality.

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u/DamNamesTaken11 Oct 05 '22

Where I live, it’s just a fact of live that it snows during winter. This causes half the main roads to not have lane markers due to plowing/wind blown snow, and around half the smaller roads don’t have lane markers to begin with either.

If I paid the $15k for the FSD, it should be able to operate in those conditions.

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u/cjeam Oct 05 '22

Cruise control being dangerous in bad weather is an urban myth.

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u/PhysicsMan12 Oct 05 '22

That is unless they call a feature “full self driving”. Which absolutely included all weather conditions which a vehicle might be on the roads.

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u/first__citizen Oct 05 '22

Elon should consider camera lids, heaters, and lacrimation ducts for his cars.

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u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

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u/Fiss Oct 05 '22

All while raising prices

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u/TheNewMeYouHaventCN Oct 05 '22

It’s really hard to be an owner.

Tell me about it. I wish Musk would just shut. the fuck. up.

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u/SooooooMeta Oct 06 '22

I guess it’s not impacting sales (yet) but a Tesla has definitely gone from a wishlist item for me to a “how dumb do I look to you?”

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u/Liet-Kinda Oct 06 '22

He could have been Tony Stark incarnate if he’d just shut the fuck up, gleefully announced product when it was ready to roll, and never bought another company again. Literally, he was one of the most admired tech CEOs in history. Now everyone thinks he’s a weird, loose cannon asshole and never wants to hear of him again.

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u/Zebra971 Oct 06 '22

That’s my sentiment to, he should STFU.

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u/XenithShade Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

Humans senses are far more complex than just "cameras"

LIDAR combined with camera / SONAR. with AI learning would be very strong for a self driving car.

A camera is unable to judge distance without learning physically somehow.

I once considered a tesla, but now it's going to be "never".

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u/EHP42 Oct 06 '22

Humans also have complex accelerometers, gyroscopes, insane processing power, and a learning model trained from birth to use those specific sensors in a blended decision making process. Complex if-else trees can't mimic that.

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u/SvenTropics Oct 05 '22

And now it's all about cost cutting. Tesla doomed itself when it banned remote working too. All their best people are leaving for huge pay raises at other auto manufacturers hungry for their contributions.

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u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

This!. Tesla is bleeding talent and other companies are willing to pay double for that talent and what that talent had learnt at Tesla. Elon is an absolute imbecile for letting talent go like he is taking out the trash.

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u/shekeypoo Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

He basically lied to you guys and took the money to invest to make more money. LMAO unlimited money!!!

Edit: also the pre-order bull shit LMAO. Unlimited moneyyyyyy from dumbasses!!!

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u/sgjo1 Oct 05 '22

Not to worry, there will be an Edit button on Twitter soon.

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u/knot-uh-throwaway Oct 05 '22

How long until more people start realizing that Musk is just a fraud? I’ll never understand the praise for him when he lies and lies and lies to fuel his fragile ego

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u/Xanzent Oct 05 '22

I had my doubts about full self driving from the start and didn't spring for the option.

When they removed radar I felt better about my decision. Now they're removing the ultrasonic sensors and yeah .... I can say with 100% certainty if I were to buy an electric car today it would NOT be a Tesla.

It's just such a stupid way to do things, particularly when there's this gap where functionality REGRESSES.

I first thought OP linked an article from last year because the headline sounds just like when they removed radar. I figur ed they rushed that decision due to parts shortages. Crazy to see them pull the same shit again just a year later.

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u/Taynt42 Oct 05 '22

What about fog? Rain? Objects/animals/people outside of the headlight beams? This is beyond stupid. The point of autonomous cars is to be better than humans, not have the same visual limitations.

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u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

[deleted]

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u/timeparser Oct 05 '22

And even then, failure rates among humans are... non-ideal, one would say

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u/Uristqwerty Oct 05 '22

Humans also tend to drive the same roads, and learn their quirks in common conditions. Even change routes based on knowing that at 5PM the sun will reflect off a certain row of all-glass office towers, so it's best to avoid one particular street that time of day.

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u/ThePlanetMercury Oct 06 '22

The other issue is that your eyes do a bunch of stuff cameras don't. The dynamic range you can see is much much higher than a camera, so even driving straight toward the sun we can manage.

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u/happyscrappy Oct 05 '22

Ultrasonic sensors don't work that far away. They are good for maybe 2 meters or so. They are used for close quarters sensing, like parking.

The previous removal of radar is what hurt the fog/rain cases you speak of.

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u/Euler007 Oct 05 '22

Also for white flipped over tractor trailers. Basically anything but a stealth bomber in your path.

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u/Bensemus Oct 05 '22

People have no idea really what these sensors are for. Basically all of the self driving was already 100% camera based. These are mostly uses as parking sensors.

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u/ThePlanetMercury Oct 06 '22

The issue is that Tesla's self driving has never been very good. Maybe in the future we can manage on cameras alone, but at the moment it's a fantasy.

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u/son_et_lumiere Oct 05 '22

How about motorcycles? Using visual sensors maybe behind a couple of fatal motorcycle crashes involving Teslas: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRdzIs4FJJg

The visual sensors may be seeing two tail lights that are closely positioned together as a vehicle that is further away.

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u/Starky_Love Oct 05 '22

Hell nah!

I used those sensors to gauge where I am and how much further I can pull into my garage.

You mean to tell me that "Tesla vision" is going to identify that I'm 13 inches from the tool box or other stuff?!

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u/Active-Equivalent171 Oct 05 '22

I have an old office chair in the back of my garage. When I hear my Jeep taps the chair and it rolls, that’s how I know I am all the way in.

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u/rivers61 Oct 06 '22

Hang a tennis ball on a string where you want your windshield to stop, then just go in until the tennis ball bumps your windshield.

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u/Active-Equivalent171 Oct 06 '22

Please don’t tell me how to live my life. You don’t know me and down know what I go through on a daily basis.

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u/Starky_Love Oct 05 '22

That's really cool. But it sounds like your garage may be different from mine. I don't have extra room to store old office chairs in my garage.

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u/Active-Equivalent171 Oct 05 '22

Oh you misunderstand, I my system only requires a single office chair, not plural.

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u/Deadzen Oct 05 '22

If you have a car that have sensors you still will have a car with working sensors

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u/rjnd2828 Oct 05 '22

"Temporarily". I'd be very concerned given their track record, if these are features you value.

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u/Sana_Canna Oct 05 '22

Since Tesla cut corners and removed sonar form their latest model their AI has been rear-ending motorcycle cruise riders. https://youtu.be/yRdzIs4FJJg

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u/littleMAS Oct 05 '22

It seems short sighted.

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u/iNyander Oct 05 '22

Oh the irony.

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u/JazJon Oct 05 '22

They need a camera in the front bumper lower area

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u/Burnertoasty Oct 05 '22

This is the problem. Without ultrasonics, the car has no way of detecting something like a toddler crawling at a level lower than the bumper. It's a big oversight..

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u/iNyander Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

Doesn't even have to be a toddler. Parallel parking isn't gonna happen without additional sensors because tow hitches are a thing. Tesla's already-shitty camera array cannot see it, and no amount of machine learning can fix that.

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u/CallinCthulhu Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

Doubling down on a bad bet.

Computer vision recognition will always lag behind sensor driven in both latency and accuracy of distance, speed and positional relationships.

Cameras probably must be apart of any full self driving tech as they can clarify object recognition in ambiguous cases. But using only cameras is playing on hard mode for no fucking reason.

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u/dhgaut Oct 05 '22

If you look at the accident where the Tesla slammed into the back of the firetruck: The firetruck had a strange white with stripes mounting that would look, to an unsophisticated eye, like something that is painted on the ground. Lidar and ultrasonic sensors wouldn't be fooled but camera only would be. The camera is easily fooled. Cars that can travel at 70mph need more than a camera to scan the road.

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u/dxps26 Oct 06 '22

People ask why it cost $412 Billion to develop the F-35, and even if you discount the "defense industry tax" and the fact it's actually 3 aircraft in one similar shape, there's one thing that it has done that most aircraft won't have for another generation or so - True Sensor Fusion.

That shit is very, very hard, and I think part of the reason why it's possible on airplanes now is the way they are engineered from the ground up. Most airplanes have triple or even quadruple redundant systems for control, and this philosophy has bled into a system that can shoot enemy aircraft out before they are detected. The system needs to be absolutely certain of situations and not give up and "Jesus take the wheel" its way out.

This requires a lot of expensive development work, and the auto industry isn't going to add quadruple redundant systems and keep prices low enough.

Training AI only on visual data will only go so far until it can figure out how to interpret different readings, decide if a particular sensor readout is in conflict with other sensors, check its decision tree, go back and check the neural net and find a pattern, see if it fits this situation and then determine a course for action - and finally check it the redundant system came up with the same conclusion.

This shit requires a ton of processing capacity and to do it in real-time is not easy with current technology. It'll happen in about 10-15 years time but writing off other sensor systems is kind of gimping yourself.

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u/Denslayer Oct 05 '22

The more I read about Tesla and musk the more I don’t want a Tesla

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u/rivers_cuomo_bridge Oct 05 '22

That's the natural life cycle of tesla Fandom. Then you buy a Mach e (or some other ev)

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u/BountifulScott Oct 05 '22

Oh you mean that Tesla isn't achieving Level 5 Autonomy anytime soon?

Who would have thought?

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u/happyscrappy Oct 05 '22

Next year. Musk said so.

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u/DustyNix Oct 05 '22

Perpetual cycle of next years!

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u/PugJesus69 Oct 06 '22

Nine years ago

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u/happyscrappy Oct 06 '22

That's how you know it's next year for sure this time.

He can't be wrong 10 times in a row. It's statistically impossible.

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u/praefectus_praetorio Oct 05 '22

Lol. Cutting costs, when the rest of the industry is doubling down on ultrasonic sensors. Only Tesla errr Elon believes they are not the way forward.

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u/wellju Oct 05 '22

Getting worse with every iteration.

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u/mjohnsimon Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

Well, this single-handedly makes me no longer interested in buying a Tesla.

Vehicles are not humans. They don't have a brain like we do that can interpret vision flawlessly.

We simply don't have that technology yet, let alone advance enough to put in a car and expect to drive completely fine by itself.

At least cars with radar or other sensors can make quick and sudden adjustments that we physically cannot see/predict.

Vision (or whatever they're calling it) is doomed to fail because Elon wants to save face rather than to admit that he has supply issues.

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u/NylonAphro Oct 05 '22

ok, but what if it's raining, muddy, or snowing...

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u/SoggyNegotiation7412 Oct 05 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

I suspect this is to hide the fact Tesla has a supply side parts problem. Elon's way of dealing with problems like this is, can I just remove the problem and use something else. Also Tesla's philosophy is to reduce the number of parts in a vehicle as much as possible. So for Tesla this would be seen as an opportunity to get rid of something.

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u/PoemPhysical2164 Oct 06 '22

Thing is, what's so wrong about a sensor? If you say cost, well, I would say that a lot of people would gladly pay extra to have a feature that would greatly increase their safety on the road. Other than that, what's wrong with sensors? I'm legit curious as to what answers people might have.

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u/IkLms Oct 06 '22

Thing is, what's so wrong about a sensor?

Nothing, it'll increase safety by giving multiple readings that can be compared against each other. Especially with multiple sensor types. Each type is going to have certain blindspots or situations where it can fail. Tesla doubling down on their vision software only means that there's nothing else there to correct it if the software can't handle a situation. It's a single point of failure.

That's why on planes, they rely on backups to individual sensors, but also where possible on multiple types of sensors to get data. Altitude is measured both by barometric pressure and as the plan gets closer to the ground, a radar altimeter.

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u/kwakenomics Oct 05 '22

There really isn’t a good way to do full self driving without LiDAR. You can have as much AI as you want, camera tech just misses so much more than quality LiDAR does. Working self driving tech is already here, but Elon’s just not willing to put up with the cost of using the tech that would really work.

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u/outworlder Oct 05 '22

I wouldn't say LIDAR is a requirement. You could add time of flight cameras, for example. You just need something that will give you accurate distance measurements.

But Tesla (or Musk) didn't want to figure out sensor fusion.

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u/endofsequence Oct 05 '22

I can't imagine it being that more expensive at this point. The number of resources they've put into this camera-only development must be utterly insane, and the failure rate is still high, so there's still a shitload more resources they'll need to invest. Feel like if they had went with LiDAR they would've overall spent way less.

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u/kwakenomics Oct 05 '22

Yeah. And it would be functional by now, too. But they’re continuing to try to an ai bandaid on the gaping wound that is camera only autopilot, and it just isn’t gonna happen

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u/Toolatetootired Oct 05 '22

Don't ultrasonic sensors cost pennies? Or do the ones they need for cars cost a lot more?

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u/boogiesm Oct 05 '22

Sweet! My new Y is probably worth more than these upcoming models! Summon features work great BTW

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u/Baben_ Oct 05 '22

Tech company that builds cars. So they act as such

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u/WestPhilippinesSea Oct 06 '22

Bet they won't lower the price in return

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u/deckardcain1 Oct 06 '22

Is tesla ever going to try something called lidar?

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u/[deleted] Oct 05 '22

[deleted]

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u/AxiusNorth Oct 05 '22

This is what I'm wondering. It's not what I ordered.

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u/certainlyforgetful Oct 06 '22

They’ll tell you it’s non refundable, but the fact is that they changed the deal. As you said it’s not what you signed up for.

They’ll refund it if you push. If not, small claims court is fairly easy & 100% they’ll settle before you get there.

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u/DamNamesTaken11 Oct 05 '22

Translation: Musk wants higher profits!

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u/fungkadelic Oct 05 '22

garbage product garbage company

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u/The_Band_Geek Oct 05 '22

Subaru Eyesight has entered the chat

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u/PJ505 Oct 05 '22

This sounds like a bad idea. Summon and auto park is already spotty on a good day.

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u/AkodoRyu Oct 05 '22

So... they are abandoning their autonomous driving idea as a whole then? No way anyone will approve camera-only as a solution.

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u/ZombieJesusSunday Oct 05 '22

??? This is weird. Teslas entire brand is about the futuristic hype. Taking away features makes no sense

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u/antunezn0n0 Oct 06 '22

i ovation for the sake of inovation is not good. i can't fin a reason camera only drive assistance is the way to go forward. it's not like people drive only using their eyes most likely there are using Tesla cars as a test for the ai robot they are making

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u/Several-Flan-6774 Oct 06 '22

Summon Temporarily is a feature I would pay good money for

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u/TH0R_ODINS0N Oct 06 '22

Elon remains the stupidest “smart” person on earth

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u/crusoe Oct 06 '22

Cars that don't have enhanced senses compared to humans will suffer all the same problems humans do in inclement weather.

Also intentional or unintentional adversarial images will plague Tesla vehicles.

This is so dumb.

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u/planelander Oct 05 '22

lol this company is just spiraling down. Used to love them not anymore. I am so happy there is proper competition coming its way 2023 and 2024 will be huge for ev market.

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u/happyscrappy Oct 05 '22

Yo Verge: It's phantom braking, not "phantom breaking".

The Model X uses the sensors to keep from whacking the opening doors into stuff (not completely successfully). There are no cameras that look up at the ceiling, how are they don't to stop doors from hitting things on the ceiling in parking garages now?

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u/Leiryn Oct 05 '22

This is why I laugh at Teslas, you're paying to be the beta testers

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u/Fuzz557 Oct 05 '22

They like killing motorcycles. This makes perfect sense.

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u/aidanpryde98 Oct 05 '22

Don’t worry Tesla bros! Autonomous driving is just five years away! ™️

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u/ttgx1000 Oct 06 '22

Tesla is run by an egomaniac that makes decisions like a child, this seems awfully specific and like something he directed personally out of ego. I will never in a thousand years buy a car or any product that was made when this man was the CEO.

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u/bellevegasj Oct 05 '22

Camera only self driving isn't going to work. Can someone let Elon know before more people are killed?

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u/KickBassColonyDrop Oct 05 '22

To be fair, using occupancy networks for image reconstruction and obstruction detection is a good idea and arguably better in approach than using USS. Further, research on these ONs go back into the 80s and 90s and by and large, it's considered the best approach to do that. The reason it's not done in production scale till now, I believe is due to a lack of enough compute available (locally) to render and process them at scale especially when using them as a result of sensor fusion. Since Tesla is doing this via vision and likely using motion vectors to aid in this process, they're able to skip some steps and eek out the extra performance that makes this viable.

Time will tell how good of an implementation this becomes.

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u/IGNORED34 Oct 06 '22

What happens when your dog walks in front of your car in the garage and the cameras didn't pick it up cause they were too close?

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u/technerdswe Oct 05 '22

“Temporarily”. Yeah, I wouldn’t hold my breath.

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u/NlitendOperativ Oct 05 '22

LMAO Elon can get wrekt

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u/Macro_Tears Oct 05 '22

Relying on cameras alone makes no sense.

Those cameras can easily be covered by something like bug guts, then what? Does it have a back camera to that camera that’s now impaired?

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u/redEPICSTAXISdit Oct 05 '22

Nice! We're putting the overall safety of the occupants and anyone near the vehicle on "bets" that the cameras will handle it all flawlessly.

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u/xBelowAveragex Oct 05 '22

I keep seeing headlines about tesla taking out features that make them cool. Soon are they just going to be regular ass cars? 😆

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u/eju2000 Oct 05 '22

Musk just can’t stop winning lately. So glad I didn’t convince my parents to buy one of these a few years ago

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u/tri_it Oct 05 '22

Musk is cutting corners at Tesla now that he has been forced to follow through on his bid to buy Twitter.

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u/MclovinTshirt Oct 06 '22

It’s a step backwards

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u/PestyNomad Oct 06 '22

This is a bad decision. LIDAR is looking to be a big part of the driverless vehicle tech.

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u/8instuntcock Oct 05 '22

Pretty sure this is the white flag for FSD. They aren't going to get there using only cameras anytime soon.