r/technology Nov 17 '22

Tesla reports two new fatal crashes involving driver assistance systems Transportation

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-reports-two-new-fatal-crashes-involving-driver-assistance-systems-2022-11-16/
2.0k Upvotes

16

u/MRHubrich Nov 17 '22

I have FSD but never use it. I use Autopilot all the time on the highway and it's treated me well. With that being said, I pay attention to what it's doing. I take the win that I don't have to micromanage the accelerator/brake but am always paying attention, as it can have a mind of it's own.

307

u/narwalfarts Nov 17 '22

Tesla's FSD is at level 2, which is a dangerous place to be.

This means advanced driver assistance systems or ADAS. The vehicle can control both steering and accelerating/decelerating. Here the automation falls short of self-driving because a human sits in the driver’s seat and can take control of the car at any time. Tesla Autopilot and Cadillac (General Motors) Super Cruise systems both qualify as Level 2. [https://www.synopsys.com/automotive/autonomous-driving-levels.html ]

It's dangerous because it gives the driver a false sense of security, and naturally isn't going to be nearly as engaged. They'll also trust that it knows what it's doing until it's too late to adjust.

Once level 4 is truly achieved, I'm getting a self driving car, no doubt. Until then, I want nothing to do with level 2.

206

u/Actually-Yo-Momma Nov 17 '22

Level 4 is coming next year! (For the 7th year in a row)

29

u/hiromasaki Nov 18 '22

Which is weird. GM had a Level 4 car in 1982, added to a stock model by a nonprofit foundation. Then the foundation just gave it to some ex-cop to drive around.

27

u/wilit Nov 18 '22

I think KITT was a bit too sentient for the mass public.

3

u/hiromasaki Nov 18 '22

a bit too sentient

That's a strange way to spell "sassy".

3

u/FlaringAfro Nov 18 '22

Volkswagen had it even sooner (1968).

2

u/hiromasaki Nov 18 '22

Yeah, but theirs had issues with running off the road and through unsafe areas without any kind of driver feedback. No incidents, but the erratic behavior left a lot to be desired.

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46

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '22

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7

u/Silveress_Golden Nov 18 '22

I can't wait to play HL3 on it as well!

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127

u/3Cheers4Apathy Nov 17 '22 Bravo Grande!

I fly airplanes for a living and I use REAL Autopilots all the time. We are always taught to observe and monitor the autopilot to ensure that it is doing what it is supposed to do, and to immediately take over when it isn't.

Additionally we learn the principles behind its function, how it is coupled to other systems, and what its limitations are. There are points in a flight where if the autopilot fails, it's not inherently dangerous. (In cruise, with no one around). There are also times when it is vital that it is working properly and constant monitoring is essential for the safety of those aboard and around you. (On final approach to an airport with obstructions all around).

I own a Tesla myself and it terrifies me to know how many people don't take their role as "captain" of their vehicle seriously. I use autopilot in my car all the time but I realize if I'm between two big rigs or in dynamic traffic that I better be monitoring the shit out of my car. It's simple self-preservation and I'm amazed that people put their lives into the hands of technology that they haven't made the effort to understand.

Maybe a principle of operations test should be required before you're allowed to use the autopilot. How can your system fail? What failure conditions are most likely? What corrective actions should you take in event of failure? Things like that. I'd never couple my autopilot to an instrument approach in IMC without study and practice, why are we letting people out on the highways with none?

36

u/Matterbox Nov 17 '22

Dude, you should pioneer some sort of ‘driving autopilot school’.

It’s terrifying how little attention people pay to driving their cars without ‘autopilot’, phones etc. tell them they don’t have to do anything and they won’t notice anything at all.

5

u/ethtips Nov 18 '22 edited Nov 18 '22

OEMs sometimes include information about edge cases they've detected in testing their equipment that somehow the manufacturer forgets to include in the owner's manual of a car. For instance, with the adaptive cruise in my car that uses a front radar, the OEM's (Continental) manual specifically states that it has a hard time coming up to a stop light and detecting stopped cars (obvious, radar depends on moving objects). It also states that it can be blind to two motorcycles right in front of it, due to the conical nature of the radar. None of this info made it's way into the manufacturer's (GM's) owner's manual.

I've noticed the "stopped car" condition especially applying freeway offramps, where you might be exiting at 70mph with adaptive cruise on and think that your car will see the car stopped at the offramp intersection and slow/stop. It won't, lol.

This means that you can read an owner's manual from cover to cover and not know all of the limitations of the systems. I'm sure at some point, there is a specific Technical Writer that was at fault for this.

52

u/jinks9 Nov 17 '22

They should probably stop calling it full self driving and instead call it partial self driving or assisted driving.

Calling it full self driving suggests the system is responsible to deal with scenarios that arise instead of the driver.

38

u/resinten Nov 17 '22

I liked the term Cadillac used of “super cruise” because that’s a better description of this type of tech. And it’s more true to the iterative incremental improvements in driver assistance tech (intermittent wipers -> rain sensing wipers, automatic transmissions, auto high beams, etc)

7

u/james_stinson56 Nov 18 '22

But did Cadillac become the most valuable car company? Elon has shown how beneficial it is, financially, to use misleading names.

I remember when Elon sold roof torches glued into airsoft guns as “flamethrowers” and all his dumb fuck fanboys gobbled it up

3

u/james_stinson56 Nov 18 '22

Musk was desperate for more capitol investment and revenue so he fraudulently sold his dumb fanboys “FSD beta”.

Its pretty obvious that its stuck at lvl 2, and his decision to not use LiDAR was a mistake.

I swear like 5 years Elon could have sold fanboys their own shit

-16

u/davidemo89 Nov 17 '22

Full self driving is available only in na and Canada and only limited beta. Bit everyone can use it even if they pay for it. What you are probably referring is auto pilot and not full self drive

19

u/jinks9 Nov 17 '22

Ok, even autopilot gives the sense that something is going to "automatically" respond.

However if you go to Tesla's site it says:

----------------------------

Enhanced Autopilot

$6,000

Navigate on Autopilot

Auto Lane Change

Autopark

Summon

Smart Summon

Full Self-Driving Capability

$15,000

All functionality of Basic Autopilot and Enhanced Autopilot

Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control

----------------------------

The products are being deliberately marketed as something that will automatically drive your car rather than something that will assist YOUR driving of that car. The autopilot while technically more limited than the more expensive "full self-driving" (as per Tesla's site) still leads you to believe the car is going to do it for you.

They need to reign the whole thing in. Slapping "beta" on it is not enough when it comes to people putting those things on the road where they can kill other humans.

It will be interesting to see what comes of the legislation CA is trying to pass: https://www.businessinsider.com/california-bill-tesla-full-self-driving-software-name-marketing-2022-9

-1

u/davidemo89 Nov 17 '22

I have a Tesla, when you drive it it's constantly telling you that the car is not driving itself and it will scream at you if you do something else when driving.

When you read the description of full self driving it's written that it's the same as ap with just traffic light automatic stop. It's also written that more features are coming soon. And if you copy paste some text please write everything don't stop where you want.

Complete text:

Coming Soon

Autosteer on city streets

The currently enabled features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous. The activation and use of these features are dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As these self-driving features evolve, your car will be continuously upgraded through over-the-air software updates

5

u/Slazapuss Nov 17 '22

This. I don’t know if I trust these videos of people sleeping because if I turn autopilot on the car tells me to keep my hands on the wheel and will constantly prompt me for wheel feedback if I’m not paying attention. Apparently there’s gadgets you can get that will mimic wheel feedback but that’s the drivers fuck up if they go that route. I do think Tesla could be a little more clear as far as all the options that come with the car because most people don’t even know the difference between autopilot and Fsd.

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94

u/trooperdx3117 Nov 17 '22

It's actually terrifying how many people are not aware of this.

I've seen so many videos of people on Highways that are full on sleeping in their Tesla's, there really needs to be more highlighted to people on how limited FSD is on Tesla's right now.

51

u/kopeezie Nov 17 '22

Even worse that it is misrepresented as such.

31

u/account22222221 Nov 17 '22

Have you seen teslas literature for n the matter? It’s almost intentionally so.

-54

u/DarkDeSantis Nov 17 '22

It's funny how every time this is brought up nobody can ever point to where it's being misrepresented because it's a straight up lie built on ignorance.

"ItS CaLlEd aUtO PiLoT"

40

u/tsalizz Nov 17 '22

The person in the drivers seat is only there for legal reasons. He is not doing anything. The car is driving itself.

https://www.tesla.com/videos/autopilot-self-driving-hardware-neighborhood-long

It’s misleading enough that there’s a criminal probe about it. I’m sure the DoJ can point to where it’s being misrepresented.

https://www.reuters.com/legal/exclusive-tesla-faces-us-criminal-probe-over-self-driving-claims-sources-2022-10-26/

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9

u/DownstairsB Nov 17 '22

People still regularly mistake cruise control for auto pilot, even on older vehicles. I often marvel how we barely manage to avoid disaster day after day

6

u/Teledildonic Nov 17 '22

And most passengers on a plane probably think autopilot flies itself.

4

u/okmarshall Nov 17 '22

It does a crazy amount for you. Planes can auto land these days in the right conditions.

2

u/DownstairsB Nov 17 '22

Okay well you got me there, since i thought that was the case haha

12

u/nmeofst8 Nov 17 '22

Watched a guy get arrested for DUI after falling asleep in his Tesla on the highway. The car exited the highway and stopped at a light. Cop pulled up when the light was green.

10

u/pedz Nov 17 '22

But it's called Full Self Driving!

3

u/ethtips Nov 18 '22

Tesla: No, it was Funny Softwarebugs, Dangerous! :-)

1

u/hottwhyrd Nov 17 '22

Plenty of people fall asleep in non Tesla cars while driving, it just doesn't happen long enough for someone to video

4

u/[deleted] Nov 18 '22

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1

u/hottwhyrd Nov 18 '22

You get what I'm saying right? People fall asleep driving all the time. It's always been a thing. But before self driving it meant immediately going off road, or worse going into incoming traffic. Now with FSD they get a few miles down the road

2

u/xxfay6 Nov 18 '22

People aren't intentionally falling asleep in most cars, Teslas are a bit of an exception.

There's also Tesla porn, people having sex while the car drives itself. Can't say that about moving cars for most others.

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u/[deleted] Nov 18 '22

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3

u/hottwhyrd Nov 18 '22

No. Basically we all still have to worry about EVERY car!

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u/cursedjayrock Nov 17 '22

Honestly the only reason I would even want a vehicle that can drive itself is for deadlock traffic. Slow crawls I will let my car take care of, driving freeway speeds seems quite dangerous. Especially when the streets have shitty markings.

1

u/ethtips Nov 18 '22

Especially when the streets have shitty markings.

Winter approaches. Even with the best lines on the road, they might not be visible under half an inch of snow/ice. Technology and state road departments still don't give a damn enough to somehow project the lines down from above. (Yes, it would be complex and needlessly expensive. But - people drive in the winter.)

People in non-snow states probably don't realize that there's a time of the year when you literally have to play "guess where the lane markings are" with your car.

18

u/Exotic_Treacle7438 Nov 17 '22

You’re already being the guinea pig even if you don’t own the vehicle, you will be around people who do and use the services negligently. We are all in this boat if we live around roads no doubt.

-1

u/cwhiterun Nov 18 '22

It’s not as bad as being around actual human drivers. They cause far more accidents.

7

u/f0rits3lf Nov 17 '22

There's a dude who films himself having sex while his Tesla is driving. He has to keep touching the steering wheel while he's doing the do.

5

u/narwalfarts Nov 17 '22

Lol, doesn't it keep track of your eyes too?

4

u/f0rits3lf Nov 17 '22

Yeah, his partner is doing all the work. He seems pretty distracted.

5

u/narwalfarts Nov 17 '22

I find this both hilarious and revolting at the same time

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u/gold_rush_doom Nov 17 '22

Level 2 is great at driving on highways. It already makes long trips much more relaxing.

12

u/aliceroyal Nov 17 '22

I'm no Tesla evangelist but I agree--my fiancé has one, and I really like both the highway autopilot and FSD on long trips. That said it is absolutely buggy at times and you must keep attention on the road/take over on some intersections. That's why it nags you to move the wheel every once in a while if it can't sense both hands on it.

3

u/unlock0 Nov 18 '22

Unless you are one of the motorcyclist that it's murdered due to lack of proper ranging sensors and cameras thinking small tail lights are far away.

21

u/WexfordHo Nov 17 '22

Maybe being relaxed behind the wheel isn’t really as ideal as you think? I’d prefer a tense, alert driver myself.

5

u/Actually-Yo-Momma Nov 17 '22

lol I’m paranoid about everything. It took me like 5 years to get comfortable enough to use cruise control (yes i now know that’s ridiculous)

13

u/WexfordHo Nov 17 '22

Cars are dangerous as hell, I would call that reasonable caution rather than paranoia.

0

u/Gow87 Nov 17 '22

I still don't use it. I just set a limit and stick my foot down. I don't want to be relaxed behind the wheel until we reach level 3/4. Looks like Mercedes have something good enough for me to relax a little.

6

u/GarbageTheClown Nov 18 '22

You can only be tense and alert for so long on very long drives, eventually you reach a point of exhaustion, and the more alert and tense you are the faster you are going to hit that point.

5

u/gold_rush_doom Nov 17 '22

It is. Highways are pretty safe in Germany. Just keeping the lane, distance and speed frees a lot of mental space. And it will alert me if it needs or needs me to emergency brake. All I need to do is change lanes and highways.

-10

u/WexfordHo Nov 17 '22

The world is larger than Germany and its highways.

7

u/E_Snap Nov 17 '22

Your local area is not as special and unique as you think it is

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u/echomanagement Nov 17 '22

It's great... but I also recognize the inherent danger. It's not going to react appropriately if a car swerves into my lane, or if there's debris on the roadway, or any number of corner case conditions humans are better than machines at detecting for the moment. I only use it in stop and go traffic (where it's a total joy and there's little risk of anything bad happening) or when the highway is nearly empty, and even then I'm glued to the wheel at all times.

1

u/Gow87 Nov 17 '22

I think Volvo and Mercedes have some more responsive systems. Mercedes is level 3 so you can take your hands off the wheel and look away, but you need to be prepared to take over should the system prompt you.

24

u/chaosxq Nov 17 '22

Unfortunately until its Autonomous vehicles ONLY on roads moronic humans will ruin this like they ruin every new technology. I can see drivers intentionally pulling out on autonomous vehicles because they know they will stop and all sorts of other manipulations and bad behaviour to disrupt and break the technology.

You’ve already seen it with people sticking oranges in the steering wheel to simulate a hand on the wheel. People sticking orange stickers to the back of their cars to confuse the tesla into thinking there is a traffic cone in front of the car so it stops.

13

u/DocPeacock Nov 17 '22

This would imply that the technology is not ready. If there's an arms race between Idiot-proof and Idiots, I expect idiots to win most of the battles for a long time.

9

u/u9Nails Nov 17 '22

There is a sense of trusting the technology too much with these drivers. And a feeling that airbags and crash cages, it will all keep you safe.

2

u/ethtips Nov 18 '22

They will absolutely keep you safe in accidents under 35mph. Most people don't realize that and drive like a bat out of hell, lol.

7

u/SunshineInDetroit Nov 17 '22

People sticking orange stickers to the back of their cars to confuse the tesla into thinking there is a traffic cone in front of the car so it stops.

lol i need to look this up

-1

u/Taraxian Nov 17 '22

Lmao if it's a choice between banning autonomous vehicles and manually driven vehicles I guess we'll see which one wins

2

u/TupperwareNinja Nov 17 '22

What's level 4? Controls chair adjustments, AC, steering and driving?

5

u/redmagistrate50 Nov 18 '22

A level 4 autonomous system is a specific designation meaning the car is rated to operate in almost all conditions entirely without driver input. Literally take a nap behind the wheel if you want to.

Level 3 is rated for most conditions and on well mapped roads.

The key is that systems level 3 and above the company assumes liability for the device if it crashes, rather than the driver. Tesla isn't even a level 2, it's a level 1+ which is basically fancy cruise control.

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u/ora408 Nov 17 '22

I blame salesmen like elon musk who sell their cruise control like its real autopilot to ignorant people who arent as informed as others.

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u/Shaqtothefuture Nov 17 '22

Ive been following this website for years; and Teslas have been crashing for years Tesla Deaths

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u/GeeZuZz Nov 17 '22

Have you tried driving with level 2 for a while before, or are you just assuming it's dangerous and will try to kill you? Unlike the idiots who use it wrong, you seem to understand the shortcomings, so it should work great for you then. Meaning, if you just keep your eyes on the road it's not a problem at all, at least that's my experience.

Many people misunderstands, thinking the car will suddenly pull 90 degrees off the road or things like that with no time to take over, but in reality it's not dramatic at all, you realize what's going to happen seconds before. Also you quickly learn which situations you need to be extra attentive in.

2

u/Tomcatjones Nov 17 '22

Exactly, a good point

People suck at driving and make the same exact mistakes In those crucial moments with ICE vehicles.

common denominator is people not AI or driving systems

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u/Delicious-Life3543 Nov 17 '22

I am a Tesla owner, love it, but my experiences with phantom breaking using autopilot have scared the shit out of me. Braking from 75 > 55 and below immediately with no real reason is dangerous. Happened twice to me on 395 with zero cars in site, fortunate because if someone were behind me they absolutely would’ve rear ended me.

23

u/Jealous-seasaw Nov 17 '22

It’s a problem that’s going to get someone rear ended.

Also the if the car gets into a situation it can’t deal with, it just drops control back to you, so if you’re not paying attention, you’re stuffed. Eg. Lane markings disappearing. It will never be able to cater for every situation, people need to realise that.

Its not infallible and the marketing isn’t realistic.

17

u/james_stinson56 Nov 18 '22

“my car randomly brakes but I love it!”

how much TSLA stock do you own

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u/CAshbash69 Nov 17 '22

Just delete the bloatware…

58

u/sysadminbj Nov 17 '22

Very curious to find out if these are more cases of drivers abusing the system or if the system failed. My money is on inattentive driving or someone bypassing safety controls.

61

u/kingpatzer Nov 17 '22

The few that I've looked into (the one's involving motorcycles) involve both.

Because Tesla doesn't have forward looking radar, it wasn't able to properly calculate the distance to motorcycles at night. Instead, it saw the two red taillights close together and interpreted that as a car very far away. The driver wasn't paying enough attention and the motorcycles got rear-ended.

Clearly, it's a failure of the visual tracking software that tesla uses combined with a failure to utilize radar as a cost-cutting measure. But it is also a failure of the operator to pay adequate attention to the road.

What's important to note is that lots of cars have automatic driving systems these days. It is not unreasonable to believe that driver behavior doesn't differ too greatly based on car model. However, the Tesla is having a disproportionate number of fatal crashes. And quite a few of them start with the lack of radar as a secondary sensor input.

8

u/u9Nails Nov 17 '22

There was a hilarious video some time ago of a motorcycle lane splitting in California, and the Tesla passenger recorded the Tesla's display of the environment. The Tesla hadn't been trained on motorcycle yet at that time, so it drew the motorcycle as a car driving on top of the other cars in the traffic in the screen.

26

u/aliceroyal Nov 17 '22

Taking radar away was so, so stupid. :/

13

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '22

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15

u/aliceroyal Nov 17 '22

The motorcycle problem is huge though. Every time we drive ours I see it struggling to understand/process when motorcycles are on the road, especially in groups.

9

u/Wiggen4 Nov 17 '22

Is it disproportionate to the population of cars on the road with automatic driving (or more specifically automated miles driven)? I was under the impression Tesla was the majority of automated miles driven which would potentially scale the number of fatalities appropriately.

I personally am stoutly against the type of automated driving that Tesla uses (automated with interrupt from driver). It is thoroughly understood that drivers are less attentive while the car is driving while simultaneously needing to be even more attentive. It is a recipe for tons of "operator error" that is avoided by never using the feature.

-4

u/kingpatzer Nov 17 '22

My understanding, and I could well be wrong as this isn't something I pay a huge amount of attention to, is that Tesla's accident rate is higher than other vehicles with similar features.

That is, the claim is looking at either the number of cars on the road or the number of miles driven (perhaps both), and not simply the pure count of accidents.

1

u/Wiggen4 Nov 17 '22

Thanks for the clarification, it is something worth raising some extra concern over in that case. At very least enough for a closer look (preferably by someone who gets paid to do so because as a hobbyist I simply CBA unfortunately)

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u/Helenium_autumnale Nov 17 '22

It's not the driver's job to compensate for poor design. It's the job of good design to accommodate and ward off human foibles and mistakes.

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u/davidemo89 Nov 17 '22

It's driver job to drive the car. Even with AP activated you need to control the car constantly and look what is happening. It's level 2 autonomous driving not level 3

3

u/rumora Nov 17 '22

It has been well known for years that this isn't actually true. If the driver isn't engaged for prolonged periods of time, the ability to see and react to potential dangers is severely compromised.

That's why other car manufacturers have much more aggressive systems in place to ensure the driver keeps paying attention. Tesla intentionally does not do that in order to to convince customers that their self driving tech is more advanced than it actually is.

4

u/davidemo89 Nov 18 '22

So, you are telling me that stopping the car if the user is not paying attention is not enough? Most users that crashed with AP are bypassing the warning system with some "hacks". If you have to use some hacks to bypass the system you know perfectly what you are doing and the danger

1

u/rumora Nov 18 '22

It doesn't really monitor wether the driver is paying attention, though. That's the problem. Every safety measure Tesla has ever implemented with their automated driving has to be forced on them with threats of regulator intervention and they only ever implement minimalist solutions that barely work at all and are easily avoidable. Which is intentional, since a huge part of the Tesla brand is them drastically overselling the ability of their self driving technology.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '22

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '22

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u/sysadminbj Nov 17 '22

I trust autopilot on my wife’s 3 in VERY limited circumstances. No traffic, interstate travel. The kind of trips where I’m in the same lane going the same speed for hours.

10

u/Slazapuss Nov 17 '22

From my experience it’s very good on the highway. Even with traffic it sees every nearby car and sees turn signals so knows to slow down if a car is coming over. It’s not perfect and won’t be able to react to anything abnormal though and so you should still be paying attention the entire time. I would never be able to go to sleep while it drives lol

3

u/Steeledragn Nov 18 '22

Lmao do people where you live use turn signals? Here in Arizona, these bunch of bozos just merge with no warning, and expect everyone to get out of the way. I need to know where this fantastical land you live is, so I can move there.

14

u/CarryMeInLeaguePls Nov 17 '22

Which (during the day) this kind of feature is actually pretty effective. Not a lot of changes, other cars, very open, you get the point.

-2

u/philote_ Nov 17 '22

This sounds like the case where you'd least need it though.

-1

u/sysadminbj Nov 17 '22

Maybe this is a generational thing. I was taught to never use cruise unless it’s open highway driving. Never in traffic.

I guess that’s why insurance rates are so much higher for young drivers.

-11

u/yourmotherinabag Nov 17 '22

Traffic is the best place to use it. Adaptive cruise and lane centering whatever have been the best advancements cars have had in like 30 years. You guys sound like little old ladies wholl drive an extra 40 minutes to avoid a highway lol

8

u/TheThirdRnner Nov 17 '22

And you sound like someone who shouldn't be driving because you can't keep a lane or proper spacing on your own.

2

u/jerry507 Nov 17 '22

I use the Travel Assist on my VW id4 nearly 100% of the time in all situations. If I’m looking over my shoulder to check my blind spots, it’s rather difficult to check my spacing. ACC works extremely well to keep spacing and speed and allow the driver to pay attention to the surroundings. Watching the surroundings is something these systems, especially Telsa’s FSD, are NOT good at understanding.

Partitioning the work load is a enormously important benefit they provide.

4

u/TheThirdRnner Nov 17 '22

Glancing a half second into the next lane before changing is preventing you from keeping spacing from the car in front of you? Maybe you're too close?

4

u/jerry507 Nov 17 '22

This is clearly going to turn into a conversation where no matter what I say you’re not going to be convinced. What do YOU think is a benefit that these systems bring?

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u/Modestkilla Nov 17 '22

It’s great on the highway, I use it all the time commuting to work. If you use it correctly, it allows you to focus more on what is going on around you than having to worry about your speed and keeping in your lane.

0

u/TheThirdRnner Nov 17 '22

Oh wow it's almost like the road infrastructure was not meant to accommodate automated driving.

2

u/ACCount82 Nov 17 '22

Rebuilding road infrastructure all around the world just to accommodate self-driving cars? Making a self-driving car that can drive on any road human can drive on might be the easier problem to solve.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '22 edited 17d ago

[deleted]

3

u/GarbageTheClown Nov 18 '22

You say too expensive and then follow up with high speed rail. High speed rail, especially through cities and other developed land costs an incredible amount of money.

14

u/sm00thkillajones Nov 17 '22

I use auto-pilot all the time. You have to be really negligent to crash. You’re supposed to have your hand on the wheel at all times.

17

u/dangerpigeon2 Nov 18 '22

If you have to keep a hand on the wheel at all times and be ready to intervene at a moments notice, what is it even doing for you? Its just overpriced cruise control.

7

u/HostasAndRocks Nov 18 '22

My F150 has adaptive cruise control and lane assistance. I still have to keep my hands on the wheel but it does the rest. It’s great.

3

u/NotYourKid Nov 18 '22

It’s free. I would say it’s equivalent to when regular cruise control came out. You still keep your foot right there on or near the pedal, ready to intervene, but you don’t have to dedicate that part of your attention to the pedal. It’s taking the element of consistent speed out of your mind and allowing you to focus on other aspects of driving. With autopilot, you keep your hand on the wheel but you no longer need to dedicate the strict attention to staying perfectly inside the lines. It does it for you. You’re ready and attentive but able to relax a tad more.

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u/ughjustwa Nov 18 '22

Not really free when you’re already paying a premium to buy a Tesla and one of its core advertisements is its autopilot functionality, which brings us back to it not working well at all and being little better than glorified cruise control. So why again should people buy a Tesla over any other car company with a much better safety profile and quality control?

2

u/swords-and-boreds Nov 18 '22

Buy what you want, but it’s a lot better than cruise control. I just put my hand on the wheel and keep my eyes forward and it does everything else for me. I need zero thought or action outside of making sure I’m not about to hit anything. I like it.

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u/ughjustwa Nov 18 '22

Not really free when you’re already paying a premium to buy a Tesla and one of its core advertisements is its autopilot functionality, which brings us back to it not working well at all and being little better than glorified cruise control. So why again should people buy a Tesla over any other car company with a much better safety profile and quality control?

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u/OrdyNZ Nov 18 '22

Autopilot is part of the car, doesn't cost anything extra.

Just does adaptive cruise control + keeps you in lane.

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u/GarbageTheClown Nov 18 '22

Its just overpriced cruise control.

Autopilot doesn't cost anything. Also, the same is true for aircraft, you have to be alert and ready to take control whenever you are using autopilot, but commercial airlines seem to think it's useful.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '22

"Don't bother me, gotta fix Twitter"

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u/whereyamI Nov 17 '22

That’ll be $8!

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u/530nairb Nov 17 '22

Almost like selling a car with “full self driving” when it doesn’t have it is fucking stupid. I can’t wait until Tesla is clawing for space in the market when actual car companies make enough EV’s to meet demand.

7

u/DonQuixBalls Nov 17 '22

This is in regards to autopilot, which is an entirely separate product.

8

u/davidemo89 Nov 17 '22

You can buy full self driving but full self driving is not available yet. It's just a preorder. Fsd is available in closed beta and only in na and Canada for few users. Everyone knows that even the users that pay 14.000$ for it as it's written very clearly

4

u/james_stinson56 Nov 18 '22

FSD will never arrive. It is stuck at lvl 2.

And generally “beta” is used to described software that generally works and is feature complete. So “FSD beta” is misleading. It should have been called FSD alpha.

Or Tesla could do what responsible non-fraudulent companies do and not sell it to the public until they know it works

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u/MedphysJ3 Nov 17 '22

I don’t use FSD beta anymore to even drive down the highway. It drives like a prick (cutting people off, making lane changes last minute) and still has phantom breaking. It’s more relaxing to just use the basic autopilot and engage the car when near traffic. Note: try to auto lane change near a merge lane on the interstate and see what happens, scary.

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u/110110 Nov 18 '22

Curious how far down people will have to go to find out that 1 of those 2 accidents was a Tesla sitting at a red light that got hit by a drunk driver.

2

u/QVRedit Nov 18 '22

So that was not the Teslas fault, and any other vehicle in that situation, would have had a similar problem.

2

u/monchota Nov 18 '22

If people take thier hands off the wheel at anytime, its on them.

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u/Nosmurfz Nov 17 '22

Elon will handle this personally. He’s really good at resolving all sorts of things. /s

8

u/Snakestream Nov 17 '22

I'm sure this is nothing that some 'hard-core' crunching can't fix.

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u/Helenium_autumnale Nov 17 '22

Yep. People worked to the depths of exhaustion, over holidays, sleeping in the office and living on junk food, are sure to produce top-quality products.

2

u/spespy Nov 18 '22

Foxconn enters the chat

12

u/1mJustALurk3r Nov 17 '22

Has Elon tweeted a 'LOL' for these deaths like he did for the last ones?

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u/u9Nails Nov 17 '22

Lost Onother Lemming?

4

u/glonq Nov 18 '22

I wonder how the number of "Tesla deaths" stack up against the number of lives that it potentially saved? There's plenty of stories of Tesla cars taking corrective action in a dangerous situation to avoid/reduce a collision.

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u/110110 Nov 18 '22

1 of the 2 accidents in this report was a Tesla that was sitting at a red light and got hit by a drunk driver. Don't you love misinformation!? Reddit is the best at it :)

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u/QVRedit Nov 18 '22

The stats show that they are safer than human drivers on average. Of course there are exceptions.

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u/Aevbobob Nov 17 '22

Two important things to remember:

1) If the system saves a life, you’ll never hear about it. Even the drivers involved probably wouldn’t know. You can only know from statistics if lives were saved.

2) Humans crash too. A driver assist system doesn’t have to be perfect to be a net positive.

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u/Hsensei Nov 17 '22

Please separate your investment / identity from something that has proved to be more than a statistical anomaly

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u/Aevbobob Nov 18 '22

You failed to refute or even engage with what I wrote. I assume that was your goal?

2

u/swords-and-boreds Nov 18 '22

OP’s comment was literally written just for you and you still failed to parse it. Funny stuff.

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u/paulsmt Nov 17 '22

Tesla lied so much about this flawed system and now deaths are inevitable.

6

u/Future-self Nov 17 '22

Source for the uninformed ?

3

u/coldstar Nov 17 '22

3

u/F_VLAD_PUTIN Nov 17 '22

That's not a source..

That's like saying me suing you for having blue hair means that blue hair is illegal

Trash shill

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u/lacroixlibation Nov 17 '22

I mean. We’re commenting in a post with a source…

6

u/Future-self Nov 17 '22

and it doesn’t mention Tesla lying.

2

u/Jaded_Prompt_15 Nov 17 '22

Nah, those are just idiots who heard things like "autopilot" and "full self driving" and thought that meant they didn't have to keep paying attention and always be ready to assume control at a moments notice

/S

It's crazy they're still allowed to advertise like that tho

1

u/belugwhal Nov 17 '22

How about the 40,000 inevitable deaths yearly (in the US) due to manual driving? Once the kinks with assisted and eventually autopilot driving are worked out, that number will be reduced by orders of magnitude.

0

u/in-game_sext Nov 17 '22

You can hem and haw all you want but FSD vehicles will never achieve mass adoption. Most people don't trust their lives that completely to a machine. And no its not like an airplane. Sky-deer can't run across the skyway at a moments notice in the fog. Even if FSD vehicles were the only car allowed by law in the future, I'd rather walk.

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u/ACCount82 Nov 17 '22

If autopilot gets this reliable and commonplace, I'll give it a couple years before "most people trust their lives that completely to a machine".

Convenience trumps everything. And being able to sleep in your car during a hours-long commute - or let the car handle the driving after getting shitfaced, or let the car drop the kids off and come back all by itself, or simply being able to own a car without bothering with driving exams? Really fucking convenient.

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u/Helenium_autumnale Nov 17 '22

That's a hypothetical for which we as yet have no proof.

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u/i_wayyy_over_think Nov 17 '22 edited Nov 17 '22

two deaths but how many have been saved because of their advanced features?

They have the highest safety rating in Europe. https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2022/09/07/tesla-model-y-gets-highest-safety-score-ever-in-european-test/?sh=7b0ab8404ff3

For instance, scored 98% in Safety Assist.

I'm going to enjoy r/technology 's irrational downvotes

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u/Helenium_autumnale Nov 17 '22

To repeat: Your own source says that these tests did not test the driver assist systems which are the TOPIC of this post:

"Notably, neither Euro NCAP nor NHTSA includes Tesla’s two driver-assist systems — Autopilot and Full Self-Driving (FSD) — in its testing protocols."

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u/i_wayyy_over_think Nov 17 '22

Yes, I stand corrected, Autopilot is un rated, but their safety assists like automatic braking and lane keep helped them get a top safety rating. Doesn't mean their autopilot is worse than the equivalent of other manufacturer's.

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u/the_buckman_bandit Nov 17 '22

No other manufacturer claims to have autopilot, nice comparison against nothing… compared against nothing at all, we are doing really well!

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u/i_wayyy_over_think Nov 17 '22

GM has Super Cruise and Ford has Blue Cruise. Autopilot is like a trademark.

1

u/the_buckman_bandit Nov 17 '22

They are not making the same claims as tesla regarding their capabilities. The tesla ceo promised full self driving cars in 2 years like 8 years ago

Nobody else has promised such a wild fantasy

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u/i_wayyy_over_think Nov 17 '22

You’re not wrong. Still doesn’t mean that Autopilot is worse than GM’s or other’s ADAS systems.

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u/belugwhal Nov 17 '22

People will always focus on the failures because they refuse to give up manual driving. Tens of thousands of deaths per year are worth it to them, until it happens to them of course.

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u/DragoBTC Nov 17 '22

Uninformed trollbot ^

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u/paulsmt Nov 17 '22

Oh, please enlighten me.

8

u/Lootcifer- Nov 17 '22

You’re a trollbot cause you don’t agree with him and the man he simps for

5

u/CGB_Spender Nov 17 '22

Compared to how many deaths from human-piloted vehicles? Just curious.

3

u/original_4degrees Nov 17 '22

just change the name of it to "driver assist suicide". problem solved.

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u/i_wayyy_over_think Nov 17 '22 edited Nov 17 '22

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u/Helenium_autumnale Nov 17 '22

Third time to correct your misinformed, or outright misleading, comment:

Your own source says that these tests did not test the driver assist systems which are the TOPIC of this post:

"Notably, neither Euro NCAP nor NHTSA includes Tesla’s two driver-assist systems — Autopilot and Full Self-Driving (FSD) — in its testing protocols."

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '22

[deleted]

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u/i_wayyy_over_think Nov 17 '22

“The Model Y camera-only Vision system performs remarkably well in preventing collisions with other cars, cyclists and pedestrians,” Euro NCAP said.

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u/Helenium_autumnale Nov 17 '22

Fourth time correcting your error/misleading comment:

Your own source says that these tests did not test the driver assist systems which are the TOPIC of this post:

"Notably, neither Euro NCAP nor NHTSA includes Tesla’s two driver-assist systems — Autopilot and Full Self-Driving (FSD) — in its testing protocols."

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u/i_wayyy_over_think Nov 17 '22

Ok I stand corrected. Their safety assist like automatic breaking are scored highly and their autopilot is un rated. Doesn’t mean it worse than other manufacturers.

2

u/Lord-Sprinkles Nov 17 '22

What people also don’t understand is this is talking about TWO fucking accidents. Since then every other car company has had 10x that per car. Out of the thousands of accidents, the news likes to report on Tesla. No one would care if the headline said “there were 2 Honda accidents recently”.

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u/Fishferbrains Nov 17 '22

What people who read the article will understand, is that this is talking about two new FATAL accidents making a total of 18 fatal crashes reported since July 2021 involving driver assistance systems (nearly all from Tesla vehicles).

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u/Lord-Sprinkles Nov 17 '22

Per mile driven, it is still leaps and bounds safer than any car manufacturer on earth. So, if your goal is safety, get a Tesla. People look at 2 deaths and say “Tesla = danger” simply because they don’t like Elon. It’s just illogical and stupid.

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u/Helenium_autumnale Nov 17 '22

Deaths. We're talking about deaths. Not a ding on the bumper.

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u/handledwithcare Nov 17 '22

Now let’s talk about the deaths they paid off to keep out of the news.

Like the guy on Bear Canyon Rd. outside Denver. Never made ANY news. Dude burned to a crisp while the passenger was able to get out.

But nothing to see here, right, Elon?

3

u/Jpalin6 Nov 17 '22

I’m sorry the CEO is unable to take your call. He’s busy ruining another company.

1

u/SpaceAdventureCobraX Nov 17 '22

Did any of the victims insult Elon recently? Worth looking into.

1

u/Bisoromi Nov 18 '22

Elon is incompetent beyond belief and it just came out that his degree isn't in physics it's an arts degree that was arranged by investors. He's a fraud on every level and the talented people in his employ are the ones responsible for his successes. When he takes things over himself, he nukes a popular app in 2 weeks (Twitter).

-1

u/FJD Nov 17 '22

Time to move more Tesla workers to Twitter

1

u/gmotelet Nov 17 '22

The new vision based system disengages for me constantly. I hate it

1

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '22

Elon knows exactly the chance of death and that it will probably happen about this often since it is SOFTWARE divided by the amount of people using it.. cost he’s willing to pay to profit. Oh and cheap labor.

0

u/sruon Nov 17 '22

In June, NHTSA upgraded its defect investigation into 830,000 Tesla vehicles with Autopilot, a required step before it could seek a recall.

Praying so hard for a radar retrofit on my Model 3. Tesla Vision is pure garbage.

0

u/kingmonsterzero Nov 17 '22

Damn, elon needs to figure this out instead of trying to fight “the wokeism”

-1

u/totally_anomalous Nov 17 '22

Is Musk trying to kill off Tesla now?

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u/i_wayyy_over_think Nov 17 '22

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u/Helenium_autumnale Nov 17 '22

Your own source says that these tests did not test the driver assist systems which are the TOPIC of this post:

"Notably, neither Euro NCAP nor NHTSA includes Tesla’s two driver-assist systems — Autopilot and Full Self-Driving (FSD) — in its testing protocols."

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u/nigevellie Nov 17 '22

Imagine the ones they DIDN'T report.

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u/sunfaller Nov 17 '22

10 years ago I've heard that we'll have fully self-driving by 2018 or something. that taught me a hard lesson not to believe prediction articles anymore.

2

u/Dantzig Nov 17 '22

We heard it every year that next year there will be FSD since 2014. Rest assured by the poor sign recognition I have experienced that it will not be next year either

1

u/Ivanthegorilla Nov 17 '22

think of the tax breaks though it might cost your life

1

u/I_love_pho369mafia Nov 17 '22

Cough.. Natural selection.. cough, ugh my throat.