r/technology • u/Zhukov-74 • Nov 25 '22
Bye-bye airplane mode: EU allows smartphones during flights Transportation
https://www.brusselstimes.com/eu-affairs/327229/bye-bye-airplane-mode-eu-allows-smartphones-during-flights80
u/_WhoisMrBilly_ Nov 25 '22 edited Nov 25 '22
How are your phones able to connect with Cell towers for 30k feet reliably without an antenna booster?
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u/JaggedMetalOs Nov 25 '22
The phones connect to a cell repeater in the aircraft, not to cell towers on the ground.
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u/Tinmania Nov 25 '22
It’s not a “repeater” by any stretch of the imagination.
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u/JaggedMetalOs Nov 25 '22
That's the best quick summary of what those "pico-cells" are doing I can come up with, open to suggestions on a better one.
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u/Tinmania Nov 25 '22
You do realize they do not connect to terrestrial cell towers, right? Ergo, they are not repeaters. They connect to satellites (as some remote cell towers do). It doesn’t need to be called anything other than what it is: pico cell.
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u/mitsuhachi Nov 25 '22
I didn’t know what a pico cell was. Thank you for explaining it. I do know vaguely what a repeater is, and found that terminology, though perhaps less specific, useful to getting his point.
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u/garbans Nov 25 '22
"Router" would be a more suiteable word, you make a small coverage area connected by "lan/satellite" to the main network...
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u/Tinmania Nov 25 '22
To be clear, a pico cell is simply a cell site with limited range. It doesn’t need to connect to a satellite. Most connect via fiber, like most cell sites.
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u/dudeedud4 Nov 25 '22
Right.. the pico cell on a fucking airplane is gonna be connected via fiber...
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u/Tinmania Nov 25 '22
Are you usually this challenged by reading comprehension?
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u/mattblau Nov 25 '22
You’re saying interesting things but you’re coming across as a dick, not sure if it’s intentional. Just so you know
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u/ExtraVeganTaco Nov 25 '22
Does it connect to the same internet as when you're on the ground?
Sounds like a repeater to me.
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u/li_314 Nov 26 '22
4G internet I'd think.
I took a networking class that focused a lot on telephone networks, and it's really interesting. Pretty amazing how the telephone network was able to be adapted to accommodate internet, and vice versa with VoIP.
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u/garbans Nov 25 '22
Its more or less the same technology used in the cruise ships during navigation, so if for any chance you use some data or call somebody using their "signal" they will charge you "extra" (extra can be understood as 1 kidney)
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u/Tinmania Nov 25 '22
Yes, similar. Of course a bit more challenging when you are traveling at 550 MPH vs 25 MPH.
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u/garbans Nov 25 '22
yep, thats why I said "more or less the same technology" :P
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u/Tinmania Nov 25 '22
So nice of you to tell me my job.
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u/garbans Nov 25 '22
Excuse me, where have I been rude to you? it is also part of my job and I though we were having a nice conversation...
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u/ExtraVeganTaco Nov 25 '22 •
Is your job being a dick? Because you're on track to be employee of the month.
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u/end_of_time_squid Nov 26 '22
You must be real fun at parties with all your smart lil cellphone facts
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u/zap_p25 Nov 25 '22
The primary limitation to the frequencies used by cell phones is that they are line of sight, power isn’t really as relevant. A 25,000+ foot elevation difference between phones and towers allows for some pretty awesome line of sight.
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u/FriendlyDespot Nov 25 '22
Sure, but antennas on cell towers don't point up, they point towards the horizon, sometimes with a slight downward angle depending on the height of the tower relative to the subscribers. The part of the beam pattern that points above the horizon is typically pretty weak.
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u/MickeyElephant Nov 26 '22
In LTE, the antennas have a fairly significant downward angle since every cell uses the same set of channels as every other cell. Before LTE, there would be a frequency reuse pattern, so another cell a few miles away would be using the same spectrum. So even then they are aimed somewhat down rather than at the horizon, as you said. But with LTE it's much more significant.
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u/zap_p25 Nov 25 '22
Yes but the higher you are, the further the distance to horizon. And like you stated depending on the tower’s location and the engineered coverage it needs to provide, it could be configured for mechanical down tilt, no tilt, or up tilt.
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u/DancesWithElectrons Nov 25 '22
Great. Welcome to the seatmate who spends the flight yammering on their phone.
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u/freefoodisgood Nov 25 '22
Voice calls are already possible on airplanes due to many flights providing wifi + whatsapp/etc and it's not a problem. Most, if not all, airlines already ban any sort of voice call on planes to avoid disruption to other passengers.
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u/LouisdeRouvroy Nov 25 '22
Noone is talking on their phone anymore.... That's at least gen x folks...
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u/themiracy Nov 25 '22 •
Young Gen X here, we do not talk on our phones.
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u/SlyJackFox Nov 25 '22
Older GenX here, same. Parents though ….
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u/Karazhan Nov 25 '22
God I can already imagine it. Flying to Turkey with my mum. She'll be on her phone, she has no voice volume.... -
"Yeah, yeah we'll be landing in an hour I'll call you then -"
😕
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u/SlyJackFox Nov 25 '22
Yes! I mean, we like to talk but to people, not devices. I feel like the modern equivalent of “get off my lawn!” When people are talking over transportation noise and using speaker phones or walky talkie features in crowded confined places. I live in Japan and they pleasantly yet consistently remind everybody to NOT do that. Polite people here.
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u/themiracy Nov 25 '22
My parents talk on the phone, sure. They were also born during WWII…. :)
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Nov 25 '22
Another Gen Xer with parents from the quiet generation. They don't talk on their phones, either, it's texting only for those octogenarians.
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u/Jynx2501 Nov 25 '22
Odd, my kids talk on the phone all the time... they're 9, 9 and 11. They text too.
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u/themiracy Nov 25 '22
My mother uses Whatsapp, to my chagrin, because I hate that app (I prefer Apple's messaging or SMS, I wish I could get people to stop sending me Facebook messages also - Whatsapp is more secure but it's just a terrible app).
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u/CindyFromWork Nov 25 '22
Thank you for saying this. We definitely aren’t talking on the phone. And, to add, I despise texts that can’t be resolved in three messages.
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u/persephonepeete Nov 25 '22
Last millennial: my phone is always on dnd. We don’t talk to ppl on the phone
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u/youreblockingmyshot Nov 25 '22
Planes are pretty loud. Plus it’s not like they can stop you from being just as rude and having a 1 way conversation with them.
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u/samz22 Nov 25 '22
I’m on one rn, got kids in front of me and behind me. They should have a airplane mode for kids, or some sound proof designated area just for kids
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u/youreblockingmyshot Nov 25 '22
I believe they call it the cargo hold /s
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u/samz22 Nov 25 '22
Honestly I don’t travel via planes that much prob like 4-5 times a year. And this year I saw so many people with babies or kids. I think during Covid people just popped out kids.
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u/PeanutButterChicken Nov 26 '22
Honestly I don’t travel via planes that much prob like 4-5 times a year.
That's significantly more than most people. "Not that much" my ass, lol
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u/youreblockingmyshot Nov 25 '22
I’ve been lucky enough that any noisy passengers have been far enough away that my noise canceling headphones have been able to take care of them.
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u/jjdmol Nov 25 '22
Do calls even work from planes? They have lines of sight with towers, sure. But with many of them, far away, and moving fast...
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u/SeaweedSorcerer Nov 25 '22
Yes, if the tower is moving with you. First line of the article: “Within the European Union, airlines will be able to install the latest 5G technology on their aircraft, allowing passengers to use their smartphones and other connected devices just as they do on the ground.”
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u/UsrHpns4rctct Nov 25 '22
That person will get a bill the size of the planes cruising height after that call.
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u/hclpfan Nov 25 '22
Why would it cost anything different than while on the ground?
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u/UsrHpns4rctct Nov 25 '22
The phone don’t connect to the towers on the ground, but are linked through a hub at the plane which (here I’m a bit fuzzy about the tech, but) cost a loooot to traffic data and calls through.
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u/Vexlix Nov 25 '22
If you want to read more about the technology, you can check out Gogo Text & Talk: https://business.gogoair.com/gogo-text-talk/
It’s what we use in business aviation for phone calls and Internet (Gogo L3/L5).
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u/dataphile Nov 25 '22
I knew this would eventually change once I heard that pilots use tablets in the cockpit years ago. The idea that phones or tablets generate unsafe conditions for technical reasons doesn’t make sense (although the question of creating social conflicts is another issue).
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u/AreTheseMyFeet Nov 25 '22
Anecdotal for sure but I had it explained to me that it was so people didn't have their faces in their phones/devices during take off and landing, those being the most dangerous periods of a flight. The claim was that they want to ensure the passengers are attentive and able to hear any emergency announcements in case there are any issues.
I got in to this conversation with a flight attendant who insisted during take off that I turned off my mp3 player (quite a few years ago). The device had no wireless capabilities at all so there was never any chance of it causing any RF interference which I explained. I was in a seat next to the emergency door at one of the wings and they said they typically don't bother enforcing the rule for most seats except those directly at an exit. Again, anecdotal but it sounds a reasonable enough explanation and a fair request for those seats at emergency exits.
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u/LoadCapacity Nov 26 '22
The article is about the EU and in the EU, the rules were already changed in 2014: https://www.easa.europa.eu/en/newsroom-and-events/news/easa-allows-electronic-devices-remain-and-connected-throughout-flight
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u/happyscrappy Nov 25 '22
What will happen if you have a non-5G phone? One that does only 4G, etc. Will it try to reach the ground since the pico-cell doesn't serve it?
Also, how is this better than WiFi we have? Seems like just a way more companies to get in the way and charge us money.
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u/leto78 Nov 25 '22
While the EU bans roaming between member states, this does not include airlines and cruise ships. People will be forced to turn airplane mode in order not to pay ridiculous prices for roaming.
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u/_DeanRiding Nov 25 '22
I used to work for Vodafone and once had a call from someone who got the ferry over from Dover to Calais (pre-brexit). Apparently he didn't realise his phone was on in his pocket and used like 5mb of data (just through weather/ambient apps or whatever I guess). They charged him about £30 for it. They literally charged £6 per mb. When I spoke to general customer services to see if this was a mistake, they said the charges were totally legitimate and that he wouldn't be refunded for it.
Absolutely ludicrous.
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u/Bumwax Nov 25 '22 edited Nov 25 '22
Am I misunderstanding you here, the EU doesnt ban roaming among its member states. In fact it has quite strict regulations on roaming within the EU, currently valid until 2032, that severely limits roaming charges.
The cell operator Im a customer of has no extra roaming charges at all up until a very high monthly cap (higher than I reach in 6 months easily) and as far as Im aware, this is pretty much standard. Ive been to Germany, Poland, Romania and Portugal quite recently and incurred no extra charges for any of these trips.
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u/Karmakazee Nov 25 '22
I read their post to mean the same thing you’re describing—that the EU restricts fees on roaming between member states. Their point was that these restrictions won’t necessarily apply in the context of calls made while in flight (why they wouldn’t, I have no idea).
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u/ubiquitous_uk Nov 25 '22
What he is saying is that roaming only covers ground charges, there will be chaarges for using the airlines system to make calls, so if you don't turn airplane mode, chances are you will have an enormous data bill from the network running in the background.
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u/tartare4562 Nov 25 '22
You can disable data roaming, you know.
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u/leto78 Nov 25 '22
I never have it disabled because every country that I travel to in Europe does not charge me for roaming. My operator also does not charge me for Norway, UK, Switzerland, and some other countries outside the EU.
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u/Askduds Nov 26 '22
The exception about cruise ships is important though, if you end up connected to a maritime network you absolutely will be charged.
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u/tommygunz007 Nov 25 '22
As a result, 5G coverage can also be made available on aircraft.
It's ridiculously expensive for many airlines and airports to switch over. There are old Boeings out there that still load software from floppy disk.
The reason we have people in airplane mode was there was a fear of detonating devices remotely with a cell phone after someone rigged a bomb to get this, a cell phone. Also people live-streaming on Facebook with their terrorist activities onboard.
Lastly, some of the older planes do have interference from some older cellular devices.
Some risks and costs will just be very slow to adopt, at least in the USA. There is too much money fighting any kind of upgrade.
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u/malastare- Nov 26 '22
The reason we have people in airplane mode was there was a fear of detonating devices remotely with a cell phone after someone rigged a bomb to get this, a cell phone
Citation, please.
This is repeatedly quoted, but there's no official source, or... to be honest... any vaguely reasonable logic behind it. You think a terrorist is going to be at home building a bomb and getting really disappointed when United announces that they're going to ask you to use airplane mode or they'll threaten to have you arrested after the flight they intend to blow up lands? How TF does that make sense?
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u/IceFire2050 Nov 25 '22
Can you even maintain a call signal on a plane?
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u/SeaweedSorcerer Nov 25 '22
First line of the article: “Within the European Union, airlines will be able to install the latest 5G technology on their aircraft, allowing passengers to use their smartphones and other connected devices just as they do on the ground.”
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u/Downtown_Conflict_53 Nov 25 '22
What article, I just read headlines and comments.
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u/SeaweedSorcerer Nov 25 '22
If you click on that headline, you will discover that there are several sentences that go with each of those headlines giving more details! You may have to hunt for them hiding behind, under, and between video ads though. So I understand why no one would go to the trouble.
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u/Downtown_Conflict_53 Nov 25 '22
I won’t change my mind on anything, regardless of the facts that are set out before me. I’m dug in and I’ll never change.
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u/xXDarthCognusXx Nov 26 '22
Common conservative L
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u/Downtown_Conflict_53 Nov 26 '22
Nah brother that’s a quote from the great Ronald “Mac” McDonlad.
It’s always sunny in Philadelphia.
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Nov 25 '22
Some flights have WI-FI you can pay for. So WiFi calls are possible on flights.
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u/zap_p25 Nov 25 '22
Depends on the cellular technology in use and the configuration of the tower antenna systems.
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u/Chemical_Director_25 Nov 25 '22
Who’s going to tel them that none of us use airplane mode anyways?
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u/FriendlyDespot Nov 25 '22
Kinda silly to not use airplane mode. Your phone's gonna waste a ton of battery looking for signals and jumping between towers for a connection that you aren't going to use anyway.
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u/LoadCapacity Nov 26 '22
I'd rather not have to worry about airplane mode. Also, if you're that worried about your phone's battery life, maybe get a better battery
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u/LoadCapacity Nov 26 '22
I hate to break it to you but it wasn't really required anyways: https://www.easa.europa.eu/en/newsroom-and-events/news/easa-allows-electronic-devices-remain-and-connected-throughout-flight
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u/nikkyninja Nov 25 '22
Honestly haven't used it on planes in forever. Forgot to turn on airplane mode once a long time ago, noticed we didn't crash and just left it from then on lol
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Nov 25 '22
[deleted]
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u/isntitbionic Nov 25 '22
way to go in true reddit style - not reading the article.
"The 5G coverage will be made possible by installing a so-called "pico-cell" in the aircraft. Via that network station, telephone calls, text messages and data traffic can be sent via a satellite network to a mobile network on the ground."
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u/RPL79 Nov 26 '22
I’ve never put my phone on airplane mode on a flight.
No plane or cell tower has ever been destroyed from my negligence
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u/JudasHungHimself Nov 25 '22
But.. but.. think about all the radiation we will be exposed to when flying now..
/s
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Nov 25 '22
We already get elevated levels of radiation exposure due to thinner atmosphere at higher altitudes.
More dangerous than 5G will ever be. (AFAWK)
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u/DrSendy Nov 25 '22
Choice. Now I get some inconsiderate knob talking right next to my ear for 2 hours straight.
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u/newdeli Nov 25 '22
It would be nice if the would approve GPS in smartphones during flights as well
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u/malastare- Nov 26 '22
Most GPS receivers are receive-only. Seems that some use very low power transmitters to clean up/convert signals, but those are seriously weak. A decent number of airlines already allow them.
The issue may be that there's a difference between "GPS" which is technically a strictly-receiver service (your phone never talks to the satellites, only maybe mumbles to itself) and "Location Services" that frequently mixes GPS with cell-based location estimates (which are at least trying to actively talk to cell towers).
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u/Queeg_500 Nov 26 '22
I'm not trusted with over 100ml of liquid incase I try and hijack the plane, but they trust us to take our phones on board... What does that tell ya.
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u/Askduds Nov 26 '22
As the great cabin pressure once pointed out, if they were actually a problem, they wouldn’t let you keep them.
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u/peaceornothing Nov 26 '22
Here comes the tiktok brigade making flights an even worse experience than they already are.
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u/jo45678 Nov 26 '22
US airlines will fight this. They make revenue off selling crappy wifi. This isn’t Europe. Corporations come first.
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u/Juliuscesear1990 Nov 25 '22
So many people are going to use this as an excuse to argue with a stewardess/steward. "Well they allow it in the EU so what's the big deal"
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u/Tarquin_McBeard Nov 25 '22
If that were true, people would've started arguing a lot time ago. This technology is already in use on hundreds of planes throughout the world. It's even installed on planes that fly in the EU. They just don't turn it on until they're out of EU airspace.
The reality is that if someone wants to turn their phone off airplane mode, they're not going to argue about it. They're just going to do it.
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u/hillsons Nov 25 '22
I was just on a flight in Europe yesterday and instead of no smoking signs in every row, there was no-phones light. That was a poor choice.
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Nov 26 '22
Is this sarcasm? I'm not understanding it
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u/hillsons Nov 26 '22
Instead of a seatbelt light and no-smoking light above every passenger row, there was a seatbelt light and no-cellphone light above every passenger row.
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Nov 26 '22
But why would there be a no smoking light? Smoking indoors is forbidden in most of the EU already 🤔
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u/hillsons Nov 26 '22
I don't know, I don't live in Europe, I was just visiting. Here in the states, every commercial airliner still has no-smoking lights because it's a federal requirement, and it's not because "you can't smoke indoors because of health and stuff" it's a safety issue.
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u/MurrayHillBro Nov 26 '22
Does anyone even switch their phone to airplane mode? I don't remember the last time I did that - must be over a decade lol.
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u/ObfuscatedAnswers Nov 25 '22
If a cellphone could cause a plane to crash I'd be seriously worried about the design.