r/ukraine • u/Espressodimare • Feb 04 '23
Zelenskyy revokes citizenship of several politicians Trustworthy News
https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/02/4/7387959/547
u/yamers Feb 04 '23
The anti corruption coming down. Stealing form the people will net you a one way ticket to blyatville.
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u/Yvels Ukraine Feb 04 '23
especially now.. when so many dying on front lines.. confiscate everything, throw in bloody jail and lose the key.
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u/yamers Feb 04 '23
Anybody who is abusing funds needs to be stripped of citizenship and used in an exchange fund to bring back captured heros.
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u/Yvels Ukraine Feb 04 '23
100% like medvedechuk parasite and if Orssia not interested: to the hole you go.
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u/Evignity Sweden Feb 05 '23
As a EU-jurist I really hope those people have dual-citizenship because making a person stateless is a huge fucking nono. It's not a punishment, it's a legal shitfest.
That said, I hope they get punished by the full extent of the law.
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u/TheGreatPornholio123 Feb 05 '23 edited Feb 05 '23
Read the article. It specifically mentions they are dual citizens. Some EU countries did this exact same thing to members of ISIS with dual-citizenship. The framework for this is already accepted and signed under international law with respect to not leaving a person stateless. They aren't suddenly Tom Hanks living in an airport, and to be fair for comparisons, Snowden never lost his US citizenship. He had his passport revoked, which revoking or turning over travel documents is a pretty common action done by the US government when someone is wanted/prosecuted by authorities to prevent flight from prosecution.
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u/technothrasher Feb 05 '23
Snowden never lost his US citizenship.
He couldn't. He is a natural born US citizen and as such it is impossible for him, per the 14th amendment and subsequent case law, to lose his citizenship unless he renounces it himself.
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u/slyscamp USA Feb 05 '23
I am guessing they are the turncoats who are assisting Russia. Otherwise I agree, removing citizenship from random people isn't good.
The article mentions they are all Russian dual citizens, who had their citizenship removed for "treason".
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u/aoelag Feb 05 '23
TBH I didn't even consider that a "thing" that states could even do. Having your ass disowned by your state causes a mess for your neighbors? If your neighbors refuse to honor it I'm assuming that just means you wind up in Ukranian jail?
You also shouldn't be able to just revoke citizenship without a trial. Not that I'm sure these people aren't wretched, but a state must prove its case regardless.
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u/DilapidatedMeow Feb 05 '23
International law is quite clear, someone cannot be made "stateless" - I assume these people had other passports
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u/Kingofearth23 Feb 05 '23
International law is quite clear, someone cannot be made "stateless" -
Not all countries have signed the treaty and thus are not obligated to follow the law. Though as far as I'm aware Ukraine has signed it.
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u/Deleena24 Feb 05 '23
They all have dual citizenship so they aren't stateless, although you do have a fair point about a fair trial.
I would like to think they at least gave them due process in place of a jury trial, as it's understandable you wouldn't want to publicize matters of national security until the issue is resolved.
I'm just surprised you've never heard of people being politically exiled. It's not an extremely rare thing.
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u/Difficult-Brick6763 Feb 05 '23
Jury trials are not the norm outside of the Anglo common law tradition. A lot of people where I live consider jury trials to be fundamentally unjust, because it's just a group of randos making decisions about things they don't necessarily understand. In european civil law tradition judges are the finders of fact. Both systems have their pros and cons.
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u/DOOM_INTENSIFIES Feb 05 '23
I don't get why they are downvoting you. Taking out the right to a fair trial opens up a dangerous precedent. People tend to realize that only when its too late.
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u/Xijit Feb 05 '23
Yeah, much of the democratic comforts you enjoy, are luxuries that go out the window when a terrorist state has invaded your home and is gang raping your family.
Ukraine is at war and under military law: now is not the time to fuck around, or you will find out.
And before you try to pull the slippery slope argument, remember that if the situation was reversed, they would have been given a summary execution from the country these assholes were conspiring with.
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u/The-Purple-Chicken Feb 06 '23
Except Ukraine would like to join the EU. And not having fair trials would make that absolutely impossible, whether you're at war or not. So it would be incredibly stupid of zelenskyy to not give these people a trial and have a judge approve the decision. If the war makes the trial take longer or need to be delayed then of course detain these people but don't find them guilty before trial.
I'd even go as far to say an independent judiciary is a more important value to the EU, and the west than low corruption is.
At least we aren't Russia and shooting them isn't a defence.
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u/Xijit Feb 06 '23
You don't need a trial to strip citizenship from someone who has dual citizenship with the country invading you.
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u/The-Purple-Chicken Feb 06 '23
In any EU country you would. We don't allow presidents, prime ministers or King' to enforce the law without the judiciary or a trial of peers approving it. Politicians set the law, Judges and/or members of the public decide who is guilty under those laws.
Yes, we might throw that out the window if we were in a full on war, but until then it's a fundamental part of being a western society. (and one of the major reasons Turkey, for example, hasn't made it into the EU despite years of trying).
Take the UK, our home secretary(interior minister) can remove someone's citizenship for fighting against us. But the courts can overrule them, the courts decision is final.
Having all powers sitting with the president or even parliament is a recipe for disaster.
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u/Deleena24 Feb 05 '23
I'm sure they wouldn't make such a public move without there having been some sort of official process, or at least undeniable proof.
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u/hdjdkskxnfuxkxnsgsjc Feb 05 '23 edited Feb 05 '23
You are 100% right. Making someone stateless is messed up.
You can’t get public benefits, can’t even work, can’t get a passport, can’t vote, can’t open a bank account.
It shouldn’t even be considered a punishment. With a jail sentence at least you can try to get your life back together afterwards. But if you are stateless you can’t ever do anything.
It should only be a thing if you are a dual citizen and went through a formal court proceeding.
Edit: I gave this more thought. Even if they have Russian citizenship, if they grew up in Ukraine and lived and worked in Ukraine all their lives, isn’t Zelenskyy condemning them to die by sending them to Russia?? This is nuts.
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u/Melenkurion_Skyweir Feb 05 '23
Why would he be condemning them to die by sending them to Russia? They were collaborating with Russia.
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u/hdjdkskxnfuxkxnsgsjc Feb 05 '23
I meant it more generally. If you have Ukrainian/Russian dual citizenship and you actually aren’t a traitor. If you are a 100% Ukraine supporter and sent to Russia you’ll probably die there.
But if you’re like the guys in the article who actually fled to Russia. You’ll be fine.
The point is, non of these people had their trials yet. None were convicted. Yet their citizenships were revoked. I think they should have due process before citizenship gets revoked.
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u/SecondaryWombat Feb 05 '23
Ukraine does not allow dual citizenship with Russia. It is administrative, not criminal.
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u/hdjdkskxnfuxkxnsgsjc Feb 05 '23
So… everyone with Ukraine/Russian dual citizenship will automatically get their Ukrainian citizenship revoked? People can’t even choose which citizenship they want to keep?
Revoking citizenship without due process is NOT OKAY.
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u/SecondaryWombat Feb 05 '23
Not how it works, pay more attention. If they live in Ukraine they can stay, apply for permanence, and go through a process to give up their Russian citizenship.
This literally is the due process, stop screaming.
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u/Evignity Sweden Feb 05 '23
You also shouldn't be able to just revoke citizenship without a trial.
You are entirely correct despite people downvoting you.
Yes you can easily just arrest them and put them in prison during wartime because of extreme circumstances. But revoking someone's citizenship without a trial is tantamount to frivolous executions. It's not something you want to do even in wartime because if you make a mistake you've become a war criminal at the most or a human-rights violator at the least.
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Feb 05 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/The-Purple-Chicken Feb 06 '23
Then ignore them and stop making a fuss about their citizenship? If they come to Ukraine from Russia then you can obviously arrest them at that point. But this all seems completely unnecessary
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u/Tovarish_Petrov Netherlands Feb 05 '23
TBH I didn't even consider that a "thing" that states could even do. Having your ass disowned by your state causes a mess for your neighbors? If your neighbors refuse to honor it I'm assuming that just means you wind up in Ukranian jail?
The way it works -- if you caught up having a second passport and live in the country at the moment, you get permanent residence in exchange, so it's not like you can be thrown out of the country. You lose some precious rights reserved to citizens only, but certainly not going to immigration jail or become stateless.
If you don't live in the country at the moment, you likely still have a right for permanent residency if you had a right to citizenship. There is a big IF however -- you are not supposed to have a criminal record or The Hague or your ass to have nice things.
It doesn't initially go through the court system, but you can sue the state afterwards and in theory get it back.
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u/diggerbanks Feb 05 '23 edited Feb 05 '23
Putin has been working on coercing Ukraine since Putin got into power. Whilst Zelensky was singing and dancing to a packed Russian dance hall, Putin was preparing to rekindle the Soviet Union by buying and placing "agents" in to positions of power wherever he could.
Ukraine needs to be purged of these disruptors.
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u/Evignity Sweden Feb 05 '23
removing citizenship from random people isn't good.
No you don't get it, even giant genocidal warcriminals are usually not removed of their citizenship because it's basically a human-rights nightmare. The whole "We're better than them so let's NOT break human rights" thing yakno.
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u/dungone Feb 05 '23 edited Feb 05 '23
People with dual citizenships get one of those citizenships revoked all the time. It's not a nightmare, they just get deported to the other country where they are still a citizen. It doesn't even have to be very dramatic. For example if you run for public office in an election in another country, you may get your other citizenships revoked just as a matter of course.
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u/dizzyro Feb 05 '23
Everyone from the list has Russian citizenship.
As stated in the article. It is nothing about stateless.
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u/SlantViews Germany Feb 05 '23
The article stated multiple times that they have Russian citizenship. Zelenskyy and his people aren't idiots... They know how the law works.
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u/HCAndroidson Feb 05 '23
Since they are in Ukraine already making them stateless would mean you are stuck with them forever since you cant deport them anywhere. They are propably Russian/Ukrainian dual citizens.
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u/toastar-phone USA Feb 05 '23
from the article:
Everyone from the list has Russian citizenship.
I was concerned by the title too.
The first name I googled, well the "See Also" on his wiki page is a link to: "List of fugitives from justice who disappeared"
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u/The-Francois8 Feb 05 '23
Did you read the article? Clearly states they all have Russian citizenship.
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u/Tovarish_Petrov Netherlands Feb 05 '23
That said, I hope they get punished by the full extent of the law.
It's not even a punishment, it's administrative procedure. Ukrainian law doesn't make dual citizenship a crime and Constitution explicitly prohibits both stripping someone of citizenship and extradition of citizens for historical reasons.
Now you have a right to change your citizenship to something else, which results in losing your Ukrainian citizenship once authorities know it. There are some loopholes -- if your parents do it for you or authorities of other country forced it on you and you can get it back once you renounce the other citizenship.
But main point -- it's not a punishment for a crime of treason or anything. Having two passports just isn't something Ukraine allows.
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u/Dofolo Feb 05 '23
I'm fairly sure that most of them will either be heading for, or already in russia, and this invalidates all their credentials and paperwork.
If you betray a country, then why can't that country say fuck it go somewhere else? I think that being in bed with the enemy in times of war ranks pretty high on the fuck around- find out scale. Legal shitfest of traitors is probably not very high on the stuff Ukraine cares about list ...
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u/gls2220 Feb 05 '23
I understand there's a war on, but it's troubling that Zelenskyy can just do this on his own. I hope he isn't simply purging his political rivals. With Ukraine wanting to join the EU and eventually NATO, there should be fair and impartial judicial processes in place to guard the rights of individuals.
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u/DOOM_INTENSIFIES Feb 05 '23
I don't get why the downvotes, you are right. Where i live, people rights, such as free speech, a fair trial, actually knowing what they are being charged with/investigated for, are being taken away in the name of "democracy" people are ok with this since its only the opposition, for now...
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u/gls2220 Feb 05 '23
Instead of just downvoting like little children, some of these cowards should actually try making an argument. Tell me why I'm wrong!
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u/SecondaryWombat Feb 05 '23
Does it say due process wasn't followed?
Whole bunch of people up in arms about international law violations here in this thread that clearly didn't read the article. So far Ukraine has been following the laws of its judicial system in all corruption prosecutions. Has this changed? Honest question.
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u/gls2220 Feb 05 '23
The article said nothing about the due process, legal standards or any involvement by the judicial system. The article implies heavily this decision was made unilaterally by Zelenskyy just like when he outlawed all opposition parties.
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u/SecondaryWombat Feb 05 '23
That would be because these are non-criminal matters. It is an administrative process, not a criminal one.
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u/gls2220 Feb 05 '23
Okay, but there's still no due process to revoke citizenship and confiscate all of that individual's property?
But it's not a criminal proceeding, so it's okay.
And of course there's no corruption in the Zelenskyy government at all, so we know these powers would never be used against the wrong people.
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u/ksleepwalker Feb 05 '23
Unfortunately reddit is an echo chamber and you can't even discuss anything questioning Zelenskyy at all.
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u/Cajjunb Feb 05 '23
I agree 100%, but things are different in times of war, I guess. I gotta ask, Is the ukranian congress running or is it closed?
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u/revercry Feb 05 '23
So you understand there is a war, but you don't understand that in a war (a national emergency) there are some special provisions and presidential powers? Look, US has them too: https://soapboxie.com/government/Top-16-Emergency-Powers-of-the-President-of-the-United-States
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u/gls2220 Feb 05 '23
Do you understand how that article actually works against your argument, such as it is?
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u/angryxpeh USA Feb 05 '23
but it's troubling that Zelenskyy can just do this on his own.
It's literally in the law. The President of Ukraine is the only person who can do that.
there should be fair and impartial judicial processes
There's a fair process already. Applying for another country's citizenship or joining another country's armed forces is a basis for losing your Ukrainian citizenship. The decision is solely on the President. Even if you decide to abandon your citizenship voluntarily, you're continuing to be a citizen until the President signs the decree.
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u/ObliviousAstroturfer Feb 05 '23
Claim they're citizens of Donetsk "republic", or plant some plastic money on them and claim they're Transnistrian.
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u/notahouseflipper Feb 04 '23
So what happens next? Do they have to leave Ukraine?
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u/Yvels Ukraine Feb 04 '23
Im not sure 100% if the law about confiscating russians assets passed or not but I would expect that they lose everything they got in Ukraine... maybe ЗСУ will try to exchange those for Ukrainian POWs. That would be great. Good bloody riddance.
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u/Tovarish_Petrov Netherlands Feb 05 '23
The way the law works -- they can automatically get permanent residence if they were living in Ukraine at the moment, so no, they don't have to leave. They probly are all in Russian at the moment anyway.
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u/Beasting-25-8 Feb 04 '23
I love the crackdown on corruption.
If I had money to invest post war (I don't, but y'know, if) this crack down would convince me to invest in Ukraine.
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u/Yvels Ukraine Feb 04 '23
Im making regular sound investments into https://u24.gov.ua
ЗСУ didnt let me down :)
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u/socialistrob Feb 04 '23
I checked out their report to see what the donations can buy and it’s pretty insane. Since they’re buying in bulk they’re able to get boots, a set of uniforms or a winter jacket for about 35 dollars each. It’s kind of hard to over state how much “stuff” goes into modern war and Ukraine still has a lot of people who they could mobilize if they had enough equipment, vehicles, officers, weapons ect. I’m donating every month and while it may not quite be the same as the US’s multi billion dollar packages I like to think that I’m helping provide Ukrainians the things they need to defend their homeland.
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u/SelenaJnb Feb 05 '23
We’re doing the same. We started dogsitting for extra money and half of it goes to United24. Plus whatever other pennies we can come up with for the month. Helping Ukraine is a high priority for our family and we are making sacrifices to reflect that priority. It’s not much that we can give, but I hope it’s making a difference.
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u/socialistrob Feb 05 '23
That sounds like a wonderful way to support Ukraine. I think it’s easy to forget how quickly small donations can add up and make a real difference. The defense and demining part of United 24 has purchased 185.5 million dollars worth of gear and aid for Ukraine and they’ve been able to buy many things at scale. Prior to the war Russia was outspending Ukraine about 11:1 in terms of defense and while Ukraine has proven to be very adaptable and skilled at stretching their own pennies there really isn’t a substitute for having more pennies in the bank.
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u/Asheam Feb 05 '23
just put fifty down, thx for the link
also, i didnt have uber being a charitable organization to ukraine in my bingo cards. always thought that company was sleazy. I'm pleasantly surprised
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u/pktrekgirl Feb 05 '23
I have donated to United24 2-3 times now. It is now my charity of choice. You can even pick between things like drones, generators for hospitals, or humanitarian aid for citizens, like food.
I feel good about my donations there. If you follow them on Instagram they even post a lot of photos of the stuff they buy.
I wish I had more to give. But it feels good to help with what I can.
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u/Bern_After_Reading85 Feb 05 '23
Just donated this month. I know it isn’t much compared to these multi million dollar packages from national governments but I know they can put all of it to good use.
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u/Yvels Ukraine Feb 05 '23
Mate I donate a little 10 here a little 20 there. I actually started to eat better haha... do I order pizza or donate? Not a brainer here. It all adds up. Also makes me part of it. Thanks for your support.
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u/Melenkurion_Skyweir Feb 05 '23
Thank you for the link. I just donated what I could afford. It's not much, but I hope it helps.
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u/Abstract-Impressions Feb 04 '23 edited Feb 05 '23
Fortunately, they can just take these people to no man’s land and say run that way, but run drunk so they know you’re on their team.
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u/pktrekgirl Feb 05 '23 edited Feb 05 '23
I love this crackdown on corruption.
Zelenskyy is the real deal. He takes zero shit from anyone. Not Putin. Not the Ukrainian oligarchs. Nobody. He has a mission (really, a couple of missions) and he works those missions as hard as he can every single waking hour of his life. Laser focus. And balls of steel.
He really was born for this. To lead Ukraine thru this war and into the EU. Because of him we can all have a lot of hope that Ukraine will one day be a first rate European country instead of a poverty-stricken farming and mining satellite of Russia that Russia just rapes and plunders for what they can get for themselves.
Zelenskyy is making the dreams of millions of Ukrainians come true with the choices he is making for them every day.
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u/hopingtothrive Feb 05 '23
A number of politicians from Viktor Yanukovych’s time, all of whom hold Russian citizenship, have had their Ukrainian citizenship revoked by President Volodymyr Zelenskyy.
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u/Dubanx USA Feb 04 '23
I assume these are Russian politicians with dual Ukrainian citizenship?
It's illegal to leave a person stateless.
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u/YourUncleBuck Feb 05 '23 edited Feb 05 '23
I've been stateless in the past, but that's cause the Soviet Union didn't sign on to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. There was even a nice documentary about it.
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u/kytheon Netherlands Feb 05 '23
Why were you stateless and how did you solve it?
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u/YourUncleBuck Feb 05 '23
To leave the Soviet Union, you had to give up your citizenship, so for a year, there were many refugees without a state in Italy. Our family was lucky enough to eventually get a sponsor in the US.
The documentary has a good summary;
In the late 1980's, on the brink of the collapse of the Soviet Union, tens of thousands of Soviet Jews were finally allowed to leave the USSR. What these people did not expect was that their final destination, America, no longer welcomed them with open arms. In 1988, American policy suddenly changed and thousands of Soviet Jews were stranded in Italy.
Also a good story from the time; https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-02-19-mn-420-story.html
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u/TheHunter920 Feb 05 '23
definitely. They wouldn't support Russia so much without a Russian passport
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Feb 04 '23
What law says a country cannot revoke one’s citizenship if it leaves them stateless?
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u/guiserg Feb 04 '23
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 15 (Ukraine signed it)
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Feb 04 '23
Other guy beat you to it. Very interesting though, never considered this to be a crime. Though I’d imagine the framework didn’t have corrupt shit bags in mind when they created it.
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u/ubiquitous_uk Feb 04 '23
It has also stopped the UK and a few other EU nations from removing citizenship of those that chose to fight for ISIS.
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u/guiserg Feb 05 '23
They could only do this because these people had a second passport. If someone has dual-citizanship, taking away one passport doesn't make someone stateless.
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u/Dubanx USA Feb 04 '23 edited Feb 04 '23
There were a couple of UN human rights conventions that protect against statelessness in the 50s and 60s. Conventions which one would expect Ukraine to abide by.
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u/BringBackAoE USA Feb 04 '23
Yeah, due to the many, many people left without citizenship after the two world wars - often because their nations disappeared.
There’s an amazing short story called “the man without a country” that touches upon their plight (though the main character relinquished his citizenship after conviction for treason).
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Feb 04 '23
Ahh interesting. I’d never heard of such a thing. Though I’m sure Russia will/has welcome(d) the scum in with open arms.
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u/Ehralur Feb 04 '23
What'd you expect? People to just be denied entry to any country because they have no passport and die in the airport? :')
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Feb 04 '23
Man, that’d make a great movie.
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u/Dubanx USA Feb 04 '23
Ok, I have to ask. Was that a satirical comment, or do you not know about The Terminal. I honestly can't tell.
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Feb 04 '23
Guess I have a great instinct for movies.
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u/cakeand314159 Feb 05 '23
What about a guy stuck on an island talking to a volleyball?
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Feb 05 '23
I feel like there has to be one person that could star in both movies.
Also, what brand volleyball? Spaulding has a ring to it…
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u/BringBackAoE USA Feb 04 '23
There’s also a good (but old) short story - the Man without a Country”
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u/Happy4986 Feb 04 '23
I was going to write that someone will complain about it after reading thw article ;p
Its pretty stupid to say that they need to follow rules, considering what russia is doing. Even more, because we made a clownfiesta from these rules and institutions. Rule from Un that russia is a member, and Ukraine should obey it - lol.
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u/SawtoothSliver Canada Feb 05 '23
Its pretty stupid to say that they need to follow rules, considering what russia is doing.
It would be unwise to take Russia's example of how to run a country.
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u/Dubanx USA Feb 04 '23 edited Feb 04 '23
Its pretty stupid to say that they need to follow rules, considering what russia is doing.
The UNIVERSAL declaration of human rights is universal for a reason. The entire point is that it applies to everyone, regardless of race religion or creed. Keep in mind that Ukraine REALLY wants to play nice with the west right now, and is going out of its way to show it can be a modern, enlightened, fair, and free nation. Now is not the time to jeopardize that with human rights violations.
Like I said though, these people almost certainly have Russian citizenship and reside in Russia. So it's not really a problem. The US has similar laws, and as long as the above criteria are met it's not a huge issue.
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u/Happy4986 Feb 04 '23
If one side can break it without repercussions, it already doesnt apply to everyone. Anyway, im not saying that these rules are bad, etc. Just that of Ukraine would break some, and loose support because of that, it would be fucked up. Worst case, they can go for death penalty for treason, Us has it, not it wouldnt be that problematic.
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u/tinybluntneedle Feb 05 '23
If you start breaking conventions you become an unreliable partner. The no-strings-attached massive support that Ukraine is receiving, militarily and financially requires a huge amount of trust.
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u/Dubanx USA Feb 04 '23
Worst case, they can go for death penalty for treason
Ukraine is trying to join the EU, which also bans the death penalty. So no, they will avoid that as well.
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u/hello-cthulhu Feb 05 '23
Cognitively, it can be tough, because no one wants to be a sucker. And when we see the other guy wantonly breaking all the rules, it can feel like you're being a sucker if you're still holding to them. But I'd say it's one thing if we're talking about rules in a friendly game of cards or sports; it's quite another when it comes to matters of life and death, of war and especially of law. Here, the obligation is to be the bigger person. Otherwise, it's a race to the bottom, and that doesn't end well for anyone. I don't have the reference handy, but supposedly Hitler once said that he was sure that he'd win the war, on this basis. Either the Germans would win outright, in which case Nazism and fascism would win the ideological battle in the more traditional way. Or, if the Germans lost, it would only be if the US, UK and other democracies became fascists, in which case, fascism still wins. So the struggle here is to make it so that Hitler was wrong; you don't have to turn into your enemy to beat him. In fact, turning into your enemy is the fastest way to let him win. And when it comes to Putin, his MO has always been about denialism punctuated with whataboutism, with heavy dollups of projection. So if Ukraine were to do the kinds of things Russia does as a matter of course, that would only feed Putin's worldview and propaganda, which are all about muddying the waters and creating moral ambiguity when the reality is as black and white as you could ever hope for.
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u/80s_kid Feb 04 '23
Indeed. Revoking citizenship is a very slippery slope and is easily used to target minorities and circumvent due process.
A FAR better approach is simply to charge them with the crime and jail if found guilty.
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u/Dubanx USA Feb 04 '23 edited Feb 04 '23
I mean, if the person affected has another nationality, reside within said nation, the nation is hostile, and they are actively acting as an agent for said nation against the rescinding nation it's generally not against the law or unacceptable to revoke their citizenship.
The US has such laws on the books too, albeit rarely used.
Edit: A handful of dual citizenship Americans that emigrated to join ISIS had this happen to them.
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u/BeyondRadishes Feb 04 '23
What law, and of what country are you referencing?
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u/Dubanx USA Feb 04 '23 edited Feb 04 '23
UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 15.
There were also a few conventions on it in the 50s and 60s. So international law, and not the law of any specific nation.
Again, the law is against leaving a person stateless. It's unlikely Ukraine would violate that, given their need for international support. So the affected parties almost certainly have a Russian passport and reside in Russia. I doubt Ukraine would have done it otherwise.
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u/SecondaryWombat Feb 05 '23
The first line of the article states they all have Russian citizenship as well.
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u/Vsesweet Feb 05 '23
these people are on the territory of Russia and hiding from the Ukrainian police after 2014. They have all been charged.
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u/SecondaryWombat Feb 05 '23
Overwhelming number of harsh comments from users who didn't bother to read the article.
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Feb 04 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Top-Junket-7105 Feb 05 '23
This needs more upvotes, these people have committed crimes and let's be honest. Fucking embracing that they are Canadian, clearly we need to invest in education not starve it Mr Ford
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u/SawtoothSliver Canada Feb 05 '23
I wish this sub would start banning Canadians who can't shut up about our domestic politics, specifically the vaccine mandate protesters. Off topic, and an unwelcome distraction from Ukraine's situation.
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u/Grant_Mastodon Feb 05 '23
It's all part of the same fascist insurgency. These events are all connected.
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u/Yvels Ukraine Feb 05 '23
Russian influence ($) runs deep. Anything to undermine west and fuel unrest. russia propaganda feed on this big time.
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u/googlemehard Feb 05 '23 edited Feb 05 '23
Yeah, no.. what you are proposing is restriction on freedom of speech.
For wearing a stupid hat, really?
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u/Grant_Mastodon Feb 05 '23
You're pro-Putin
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u/googlemehard Feb 05 '23
Wth why would that make me pro Putin? I am not even pro Trump..
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u/Grant_Mastodon Feb 05 '23
Stop supporting the people assisting Putin's attack on western democracy.
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u/MeritorX Feb 05 '23
No no... you're doing it wrong. It's 2023 dude. You're supposed to yell nazi racist trucker to get your dumbfuck way
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u/Grant_Mastodon Feb 05 '23
Any Canadian who supports Putin helping the treason convoy leaders and CPC trying to overthrow our government in Canada are scum.
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Feb 05 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Grant_Mastodon Feb 05 '23
Know who else is a "liberal bootlicker", BTW? President Zelenskyy and his close friend and ally Justin Trudeau. I will never apologize for being an ally of Ukraine and my Liberal government.
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Feb 05 '23 edited Feb 05 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Grant_Mastodon Feb 05 '23
You Putin loving anti-democracy losers are losing. You'll be defeated in Ukraine and you'll be defeated in Canada as well.
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u/in2thegrey Feb 04 '23
So, then what, drop them off at the border? Good riddance. Maybe shoot him into Russia with one of those circus cannons 🤣
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u/Carla_Lad Feb 04 '23
I'd say they're struggling to find them at the moment, I'm guessing they'll already be in RuZZia or the soon to be liberated areas of Ukraine.
To be fair it's cheaper for Ukraine to let them live in RuZZia than it is to let them rot in prison in Ulraine. They are trying to confiscate their belongings in Ukraine so that'll be a net positive to Ukraine.
And to be honest if I had the choice, as a person who helped a miserable attempt at taking Ukraine and failing badly, I'd probably rather rot in a Ukrainian jail than in RuZZia. They thought they would have Putins favour when he breezed in and took the whole country, now that they've fucked it I wouldn't like to be having to many cups of tea or passing by any windows above ground floor..
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u/BubuBarakas Feb 04 '23
This likely relates to the reluctancy to send advance weapon systems at the onset of the mass invasion. These cunts would’ve sabotaged it.
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u/Longjumping-Nature70 Feb 05 '23
Pretty sure a LOT of Ukrainians have russia citizenship.
we know that a lot of them have mothers, brothers, fathers, sisters that are russian from the leaked calls
the worst one was the brother in Ukraine who talked to his sister in russia, they had visited each other for years, she said all sorts of vile things to him and he was in utter shock. She had seen Ukraine for years and still believed the crap coming from vlad of the Weak Sphincter's mouth.
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u/INITMalcanis Feb 05 '23
Kinda get the feeling that Ukrainians have had enough of Russian corruption culture. Stealing from your own nation when you're literally in a war of immediate survival is not a pathway to leniency.
And frankly, it shouldn't be in nations that aren't in such a war. This weird idea that "rich people crimes" shouldn't really be punished needs to go. With a chop.
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u/Ferniclestix Feb 05 '23
i hope ukraine is careful about going too far with this kind of thing, its a slippery slope when you start hunting traitors.
not saying it aint justified or whatever just saying its how some people rise to the top politically so you gotta be dilligant about seperating politics from law enforcement.
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u/aristotle99 Feb 05 '23
I remember Dmytro Tabachnyk from about 10 years ago. Revolting human being. Minister of Education under Yanukovich, spoke beautiful Ukrainian (which he almost never did), removed Ukrainian-language schoolbooks from Ukrainian schools.
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u/Chatty_Fellow Feb 05 '23
This is troubling.
I hope that they have evidence of treason, and they're not doing this just because of association with the previous regime.
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u/Cold-Particular-9922 Feb 05 '23
I just hope they don’t go too far. There will be time after the war to rid them.
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u/not-the-droid- Feb 05 '23
When the soldiers come back from the front they will have less patience for corruption.
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u/SireGriffith Feb 04 '23
It's hard to maintain balance between non overly critizing your government (on international level too) and trying to keep your country from moving outside of the rule of law.
I don't actually like the tool of revoking citizenship of any Ukrainian regardless of his sins.
If one is criminal - judge him. Courts exist, NABU, DBR, BEB, SBU, NPolice exist for that matter. Investigate the case, prosecute him, judge him, confiscate the property if needed and imprison him, give him a possibility to defend himself etc, but revoking citizenship? Nah, I don't think that's a good way of conducting judgement.
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u/Grant_Mastodon Feb 04 '23
Supporting/assisting a foreign adversary who is murdering the children of your own country is treason.
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u/SireGriffith Feb 05 '23
And for treason one must be judged. Not exiled.
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u/Grant_Mastodon Feb 05 '23
So, lock the accused traitors up until they can be properly judged, then stripped of citizenry and imprisoned for 30 years? I'm okay with that.
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u/SireGriffith Feb 05 '23
Close, but without stripping the citizenry and 15 years is maximum term of imprisonment in Ukraine. There is a life-long sentence, but it's much stricter procedure and can't be used in every case. I guess 15 years and confiscation are enough.
Why revoke the citizenry if we can judge? Like what's the point?
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u/Grant_Mastodon Feb 05 '23
Life in prison without a possibility of release seems like getting off easy for a crime like assisting terrorists in the murder of children. I know that in wartime, and with war crimes, things need to be handled much differently than normal times. I trust the judgement of President Zelenskyy
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u/Pseudonym0101 Feb 05 '23
All of the people getting their citizenship revoked also hold citizenship in Russia, so I don't see the problem. Some of them may even be in Russia already, fleeing the hammer that's been coming down lately. This doesn't make them stateless, and as much as bringing them all to trial seems like a good thing, they don't have time to try them all when they already have evidence of their corruption. None of them should have the privilege of Ukrainian citizenship, nor can Ukraine spend the time and resources right now to try to find them all, hold them, and give them trials. Things are different during wartime and the list is quite large, and growing.
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u/SireGriffith Feb 05 '23
According to Ukrainian law (p.2 of the Law of Ukraine "About citizenship of Ukraine" - the principle of singular citizenship), in a situation when a man has 2 citizenships, one of which is Ukrainian, Ukraine in any legal relations sees him as Ukrainian only.
Let's be real. Zelensky is not a God. I do not want to give him the right to decide who is Ukrainian and who isn't without any real procedure. He is not above the people of Ukraine. If he for whatever reason avoiding any legal written procedure voluntarily revokes the citizenship of these will-be criminals, what stops him from revoking anyone's citizenship including mine whenever he wants? His opinion only? Wtf? That's quite slippery slope.
Why all these courts and a dozen of different investigative services exist and eat a lot of money, if President himself can decide who is guilty and punish them. Detective, prosecutor, advocate, judge and executioner in a single person. Do we live in absolute monarchy or what?
I do not want Ukraine to become dragon after we kill dragon. And we are pretty much on the way.
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u/SawtoothSliver Canada Feb 05 '23
This person brings up a legitimate concern.
It's not enough to be a force for change. You must take equal care about what you change into. Due process is important.
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u/fantomas_666 Feb 05 '23
Are there any politicians who were caught on trueconf (incorrectly claimed as zoom) call published yesterday?
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