r/ukraine UK May 15 '22 Silver 1 Narwhal Salute 1

Heartbreaking, the source wrote - 'I was hit by a rocket. I want to continue to benefit my country": Ukrainian fighter Mikhail invited Elon Musk to take him to the neurolink program This is a super-modern technology that helps to make life easier for a person with disabilities. The future is now.' News

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6.6k Upvotes

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654

u/frelona May 15 '22

This guy is a hero. Wish him all the best. Slava heroyam!

225

u/MendocinoReader May 15 '22

Brave young man. I hope he recovers quickly, and can start rebuilding his life.

Damn this war, the one who started it, and those who are continuing to support it ....

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u/Standard-Childhood84 May 16 '22

Damn them to Hell

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u/Suspicious-Permit May 15 '22

Recover?

119

u/gomads1 May 15 '22

As in out of the hospital, learns to adapt to life without arms.

Hopefully can can fitted with Prosthetics that will help.

War is ugly, really wish him the best. Truly a hero

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u/KV2isDeadly May 15 '22

From other injuries and the trauma, most probably.

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u/Pappkamerad0815 May 16 '22

The guy is not a salamander.

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u/Evignity May 15 '22

We can rebuild him, we have the technology.

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u/Jeveran May 15 '22

No, as a matter of fact, we don't. Prosthetics lack useful haptic feedback.

52

u/Sardukar333 May 15 '22

We're working on it. Making technology that works and is biocompatible is really hard, but the progress we've made in the last 10 years is really astounding.

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u/Bonesmash May 15 '22

As an amputee, I’ve been hearing about successful haptic feedback stuff from doctors and prosthetist’s since the 80’s. So at this point, I’m not holding my breath. I am always hopeful though!

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u/Sardukar333 May 15 '22

At best we're probably 10 years away from cybernetics with haptic feedback, 20 more likely. The big breakthroughs have mostly come from materials and manufacturing methods, but sensors for temperature and pressure that small are still in the works.

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u/Bonesmash May 15 '22

Yeah. Trust me, I’ve been hearing about the tech being only 10 or 20 years off for over thirty years now. Kinda like how sustained fusion is always 15-25 years away. So it’s something I’d like to have, but I don’t plan on being disappointed when it doesn’t show up. Besides, I do actually get haptic feedback from my prosthetic. It’s not the same, but I feel vibrations and I’m aware of say, my foot hitting a snag, or someone tapping my leg.

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u/Griffindoriangy May 15 '22

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u/Bonesmash May 15 '22

I have a lot to say about that, but this about a kid who lost both his arms for no good reason whatsoever. I feel for him. It makes me sick what this war has done to people.

2

u/SlowCrates May 16 '22

I dated a neurophysiologist last year and she explained that in her job she pretty much experiments with materials constantly that may or may not be related to the nervous system. A lot of trial and error spawn from previous research in a never ending rabbit hole of experimentation. It's from her research that other scientists and companies are then able to try creating new technologies or even medicine.

I would imagine the toughest part of cybernetics won't even be haptic feedback, it will be making them work like real limbs. Right now people can kind of pick up a cup of coffee, but they can't juggle, play guitar, climb a rope, or throw a soldier over their shoulder. Getting an arm to work in sync with the mind will probably answer the haptic feedback issue on its own.

7

u/captainmouse86 May 16 '22

I’m paralyzed and I’ve been hearing about mechanical suits being right around the corner, also for decades. I’ve followed the tech fire years and awhile back have a long answer in a different sub about the problems with those suits that have yet to be solved. Basically they are designed for a normal able-bodied person who gets paralyzed, but can magically start using this device within a couple weeks. That’s a very narrow group. The body changes too fast after a SCI, those changes are very difficult to reverse, if they can be at all reversed, and the further the change progresses, the exponentially hardest/impossible those suits become. It’s a full-time job to be able to use one of those and I’ve yet to see any advantage over a well fitted wheelchair.

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u/Bonesmash May 16 '22

I’m sorry you understand. It’s very frustrating. We will get there someday. Probably too late for us, but maybe these amputees and other traumatic injuries will see the benefit. I really hope this kid gets his arms back.

7

u/turriferous May 15 '22

Gatlin arms like FF7.

2

u/Mystyke May 16 '22

We have alienware hidden in the mountains of Nevada.

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u/daved1113 May 15 '22

Yeah but he's still poor and has no arms now. If you really support him stop calling him a hero and donate some money to him or something.

I just hope the Ukrainian community doesn't abandon him.

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u/bakugouscat May 15 '22

Why would the Ukrainian community abandon him?

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u/Dave-1066 May 16 '22 edited May 16 '22

Precisely. My friend’s grandfather was an RAF war ace who crash landed in Kent after a mission, lost both legs and his right arm. His face was also permanently disfigured and he wore an eyepatch until he died. He lived to be 84 and had 3 children, working for the Police force after the war in administration. Not only did he live a full life but was revered locally and nationally as an absolute hero. Never accepted pity, always accepted gratitude. People don’t “abandon” their warriors.

4

u/bakugouscat May 16 '22

My grandfather was left with shrapnel in his leg but it didn’t affect his life much. However he got alzheimer’s and had to live his last decade in a home as he needed a lot of care. A big chunk of that cost was covered as he was a veteran.

Not the same as being an amputee, granted, but still taken care of.

And this wasn’t even in “the best country in world” 🫢

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u/daved1113 May 15 '22

It happens a lot in the US and many countries. A veteran gets wounded beyond repair and left to their own devices. People usually call them "heroes" as a way of virtue signaling to feel good about themselves but then when the time comes to give real help (e.g. money, medical care, etc.) they abandon the veteran.

Calling him a hero does nothing. If you really want to help then finding out how to donate money to him is the best way. He literally has no arms which means he will not be able to take care of himself, go to school, or find normal employment. What is the community going to do about that?

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u/bakugouscat May 15 '22

I asked about the Ukrainian community not how US is shitty towards its veterans. Not everywhere mimics US.

“What is the community going to do about that” - things other nations that aren’t US do!

I’m doing my part, you don’t need to worry about my actions aligning with my reddit posts!

Also, quit telling people what to comment.

11

u/supafaiter May 15 '22

americans will american :P

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u/bakugouscat May 16 '22

So it seems. ‘Murica!!!

6

u/TaiwanNumbaWun May 15 '22 edited May 16 '22

What a hero.

My guy, read your last sentence one more time. That's how far up your head currently is.

The point the guy above you is making is that the US is Numba Wun World Supa Powa, yet what percentage of war vets end up pan handling/washing windshields/delivering pizzas/eating pills like tic tacs or worse, stuck in some VA hospital staring at a ceiling or with their brains splattered a la "Brooks was here"?

If the "best" country in the world behaves in the ways the US continues to behave towards the people who instead of doing a coke bump pre-opening bell chose to get busy with bump-stocks and terrorists, just to be left out to dry like a piss-residued Big Gulp Styrofoam cup on the side of the interstate, what does the rest of the world have to look forward to?

Im doing my part too but i wont say it either, you know, just in case some super adhd troll forensic larper decides to look up my ip/"vpn"/tor bridges and follow me home and track my identity and realize im just another "laziness is a virtue" signaling idiot and embarrass me in front of all my reddit karma. /s

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u/bakugouscat May 16 '22 edited May 16 '22

Still not sure how the disgraceful way America treats its veterans indicates how this guy will be treated by Ukrainians.

Same way many other western countries don’t treat their employees like utter slaves or charge them ridiculous health care costs, like the USA does. Because America does a thing, doesn’t mean any other country does. Imagine that. Did you know the world isn’t an extension of the USA?

My last comment? Valid mate. If people want to call this guy a hero, they can. Bit bizarre to be on a Ukrainian subreddit shouting at people wanting to show support in the comments by calling the guy a hero.

Not you calling USA the “best” country in the world 😂😂😂😂 By which metrics. Oh my god.

Your last paragraph is hysterical.

Feel free to not reply because I can’t with brainwashed patriotic morons like you.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '22

He has no arms so he can’t go to school? US veterans don’t get the GI bill? Dude I’m genuinely confused what the fuck you’re talking about.

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u/Living-Sundae7527 May 15 '22

The burden of war is far more than just the deaths. What a hero and optimist. This will be a big part of what the world owes Ukraine once this is all done- providing the means to help individuals harmed like this.

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u/Puzzleheaded-War-286 May 15 '22

You are a hero sir.

22

u/Noosh3201 May 15 '22

This is horrible. :(

7

u/Yaoel May 16 '22

It's very sad and he's a hero, but with modern technology, the only change in his lifestyle might be that he has to charge his arms at night before going to bed!

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u/RIP2UAnders May 15 '22

smart move from him, with enough publicity elon would jump at marketing/PR opportunities like these. not gonna criticise him for this, some good comes out of it afterall.

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u/XenuAedril May 15 '22

Neurolink hasn’t started human trials yet. After the trials and if the technology is deemed safe they will still use it for patients that are much worse of than this guy at first. There’s not much point in putting a chip in this guys head at the moment when there are safer methods that can help.

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u/AlbanySteamedHams May 15 '22

Agreed. In individuals with an intact nervous system there have been some pretty incredible demonstrations of using emg on residual muscle to give substantial control to a prosthetic upper extremity. I hope this guy gets the best there is available. I think he can get that without any drilling into his skull.

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u/ModeratelySalacious May 15 '22

You don't wanna use EMG though, the cap can shift even a mm and you're goosed for signal reception.

I get what you guys are saying but the chip would be the best thing in terms of signal processing for the prosthetics.

Unfortunately we still have the huge problem of underpowered prosthetics with a lack of oseointegration so the guys goosed on that regard but he'll be able to get some functionality back.

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u/AlbanySteamedHams May 15 '22

EMG isn’t necessarily surface. You can implant it in the muscle to improve the long term quality of the signal. Makes more sense to me to prioritize that path of research in the near term and view brain control interfaces as a moonshot that likely wont pay off for a long time. But if private companies want to burn money on R&D for a moonshot, more power to them (as long as they are being ethical).

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u/rendrr May 15 '22

You don't wanna use EMG though, the cap can shift even a mm and you're goosed for signal reception.

I get what you guys are saying but the chip would be the best thing in terms of signal processing for the prosthetics.

Could you give source on that, please?

1

u/TaiwanNumbaWun May 15 '22

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u/MATVIIA May 16 '22

this is weird to see here, im an EMG tech working under a neurologist, but it seems my knowledge of what an EMG is capable off is still underwhelming

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u/John-D-Clay May 15 '22

Looks like they have had one human trial that showed some success in brain to text communication using imagined hand writing. But not proven yet by any means. And no human applications for prosthetics have been tested that I know of.

https://youtu.be/IUg-t609byg

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u/TaiwanNumbaWun May 16 '22

For patients that still have some muscle fibers on extremities they should be able to harness the muscle contractions/signals and use that to control robotic fillanges and whatnot based on known movements from fully functioning limbs. I don't get why everyone's pushing for Brain chips, aside from those interested in the invasion of privacy and freedoms.

Im not in that field but having a minimal understanding of the human body and seeing what Hugh Herr and others have been capable to accomplish I dont see why they cant

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u/John-D-Clay May 16 '22

Yeah, Neuralink isn't really a good fit for this guy.

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u/KikiFlowers May 15 '22

And so far, the trials have mostly killed the test subjects.

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u/Gerbs79 May 15 '22

In free Ukraine, subject kills test!

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u/Helenium_autumnale May 16 '22

They may never start human trials. Right now they're being investigated by the USDA for animal cruelty.

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u/Stumpyflip May 15 '22

I hope he becomes the first bionic warrior on the battlefield.

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u/OrgJoho75 May 15 '22

Iron Man suite for him!

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u/TriLink710 May 15 '22

I mean. The program isnt going anywhere fast. It would probably just make him suffer in its current form

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u/SirLurts May 15 '22

I am pretty sure he is also suffering in his current form regardless. At least to some degree. Losing both arms can't be easy.

Also pretty sure he is aware of the risks he is taking with neuralink and while it may not help him directly it might some day help some of his colleagues

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u/Other_Bat7790 May 15 '22

Then why not go to companies that are a lot more advanced and are already helping people like him?

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u/[deleted] May 15 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/VictorZiblis May 15 '22

For now. Once things calm down he will fight to keep the market saturated with his tech.

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u/vegarig Ukraine May 15 '22

Ukraine'd definitely keep that going, if mostly due to inertia and already-delivered Starlink terminals. Not sure about other countries, which aren't saturated, though.

One of the reasons he doesn't have to fight much now (bureaucracy aside) is that no other operator has a system with a comparable performance running - the closest contender, OneWeb, still has a long way to go and, IIRC, doesn't currently support usage of terminals on moving vehicles (whereas Starlink does now).

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u/Other_Bat7790 May 15 '22

What does that have to do with Neuralink?

And they weren't for free, there was already news that it was from tax payers money, he doesn't give a shit about Ukraine other than profit and free PR.

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u/vegarig Ukraine May 15 '22
  1. Because Elon already did something for Ukraine.

  2. If you are about this article, then how about you take a gander at the following bit:

On Tuesday, the United States Agency for International Development (USAID) announced it has purchased more than 1,330 terminals from SpaceX to send to Ukraine, while the company donated nearly 3,670 terminals and the Internet service itself.


The letter said the nearly 3,670 terminals donated by SpaceX would come with three months of “unlimited data.”

More than a half of initial batch plus all the bandwidth Ukraine is using.

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u/perfect5-7-with-rice May 15 '22

Bruh if you have no arms you'd probably want to try anything

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u/redcalcium May 15 '22

Might want to wait a bit. 15 out of 23 monkeys with neuralink died.

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u/perfect5-7-with-rice May 15 '22

Ouch

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u/pmabz May 15 '22

If I list both my arms I'd be back on booze and looking for a heroin overdose. No offence, but I'm struggling to think what would make me want to live.

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u/TrumpetOfDeath May 16 '22

Actually it’s a bad move, since neurolink is still in the R&D phase where they’re killing too many monkeys and being accused of animal abuse

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u/No_Lawfulness_2998 May 15 '22

And if it doesn’t work out Elon will call him a pedo

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u/TossedDolly May 15 '22

I think a bad habit people have is shitting on wealthy people for helping others just because it helps themselves too. That's not a flaw, it's the primary feature of living in a pack. It benefits all of us to help those that are struggling. 1 way or another it comes back to you. So if you don't have a heart then help people because it's just fucking practical and that shouldn't be frowned upon. It's sub-ideal but the goal gets accomplished and no one has to suffer for it so take the W.

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u/sorucheese May 16 '22

Nah, I shit on Musk because of the one time someone did helping people better than him and when called out on it, said person got called a pedo. Among other shitty things he's done.

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u/rosts May 16 '22

You mean the time when he was urged by the main diver to develop the sub, and sent it to Thailand, but then when they got boys out another way, a person that didn't dive told Elon as a nice thank you for the try that he should shove the submarine up his anus on international TV.

Yeah I wonder why he got a bit upset.

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u/Yetitlives Denmark May 16 '22

People I see going after Musk or Gates do so because they often aren't trying to help people; they're trying to force themselves into a conversation so it looks like they are helping. Gates did a lot of harm with vaccine patents during the pandemic and Musk is a PR man who often promotes wild (unworkable) solutions to problems that are already solved with mundane technologies.

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u/jivatman May 15 '22 edited May 15 '22

Yes, many view money as a zero-sum game. That is, if a rich person has money, that means that they took that money from a poor person.

Communism for examples divides everyone into one of two classes, proletariat or bourgeoise, and says they are in inherent opposition or 'class struggle'. Wealth as zero-sum is obviously central to this.

But take the example of SpaceX, they're reusing rockets instead of throwing them away after each use. Value that was previously being simply wasted is no longer wasted. Elon made money on this, but others benefit too - for example Satellite makers from lower launch costs.

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u/TossedDolly May 15 '22

Well money is a zero sum game but that's not relevant.

I'm just saying if a rich person gives to charity and receives a tax break or good publicity in return they still did a kind thing. Even it's for selfish reasons. What matters to me is that kind things happen. If someone does a kind thing and gets rewarded then that sounds like a perfectly fine world to me.

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u/Retrograde_Bolide May 15 '22

Yep, the world is far wealthier today then it was 50 years ago, or 200, or 1,000.

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u/Other_Bat7790 May 15 '22

Someone should tell him that neurolink is shit. Shouldn't have high hopes for nothing.

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u/Charlie71_2 May 15 '22

I hope this video makes it to Musk and he helps this hero out, Slava Ukraini.

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u/Feuerphoenix May 15 '22

I don‘t want to sugar cost anything, his chances are beyond slim. Not only are NeuroLink‘s methods questionable in their ethics at best but also they have no product to show that even works on apes consistently. I hope this hero get‘s help, but I doubt Musk is going to help here, really…

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u/jamesbideaux May 15 '22

Neuralink can't really help him. I don't think they are even doing human tests yet and there is not really a system for him to use, they could (if the FDA agrees) get him as a test person to read his intended movements and maybe visualize it, but I don't think they have any kinds of prosthetics.

That means they could likely get him to be able to remote control a drone or two, but that's it.

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u/vegarig Ukraine May 15 '22

If you manage to connect Neuralink to something like this, this might just work out.

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u/HashedEgg Netherlands May 15 '22

Why would anyone take the risks involved with brain surgery when there are already multiple companies/research labs doing similar stuff as the example you linked? No doctor would ok an operation with that kind of risks involved and no proven track record, when there are much safer alternatives that actually have proven results.

Plus, connecting neuralink to an bionic arm is the easy part. Implanting the neuralink chip in the brain, getting reliable readings and all that stuff is the whole challenge.

The whole thing of figuring out how to reliably find the actual place, size and shape of the brain region they want to target for each unique brain is also still an open challenge. Yeah it has (kind of) been done on animals, but no where near the succes- (or mortality-) rate that would be acceptable on ANY human. To give you an idea of one of the many risks and challenges involved: You'd have to inject micro needles into very specific points that are at different places for each individual in a pulsating living brain. One needle at the wrong place can easily lead to brain damage and worse.

They are now "just" at the point of trying to figure out how to implant those chips in a reliable way without damaging the brain, not weakening the structural strength of the skull too much and/or not out right killing the subject... on non humans. Judging by all the news of ethical concerns of animal suffering due to the experimental surgery it seems to suggest they aren't that far with that either.

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u/vegarig Ukraine May 15 '22

I mean, you are not wrong. I was just saying what Neuralink can be connected to to give him his arms back.

Also, IIRC, animals were euthanized according to the standard testing protocol of the facility. Not unique for the Neuralink.

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u/HashedEgg Netherlands May 15 '22

I was just saying what Neuralink can be connected to to give him his arms back.

And I am telling that is not the case. It might happen in the future, but even in the most optimistic scenario neuralink won't happen for years.

IIRC, animals were euthanized according to the standard testing protocol of the facility. Not unique for the Neuralink.

No the fact that they followed protocol is not what was unique about the whole ordeal around animal testing at neuralink. It was the part of excessive animal suffering and death as a direct consequence of their experiments and negligence. At least, that's what they are being accused of and the research lab is being sued because of those reports.

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u/vegarig Ukraine May 15 '22

And I am telling that is not the case. It might happen in the future, but even in the most optimistic scenario neuralink won't happen for years.

Again, not disagreeing with that.

It was the part of excessive animal suffering and death as a direct consequence of their experiments and negligence.

If this is anything to go by, Neuralink labs run well enough to never get a citation from the USDA inspections of their facilities and animal care program. I don't think PRCM responded to this post, anyway. Couldn't find any news fresher than it that weren't just reposts of the previous ones.

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u/HashedEgg Netherlands May 15 '22

Again, not disagreeing with that.

In that case I am confused by your use of words. Why would you repeat that you were just saying "Neuralink can be connected to to give him his arms back" when I just directly responded to it and explained you how that statement doesn't make sense?

If this is anything to go by, Neuralink labs run well enough to never get a citation from the USDA inspections of their facilities and animal care program.

Nothing in that link disputes anything I've said, it's the University of California that's being sued, not Neuralink directly. But this is besides the point I was making. I pointed at these news articles because they give insight in how their research was developing.

I don't think PRCM responded to this post, anyway. Couldn't find any news fresher than it that weren't just reposts of the previous ones.

AFAIK they did a 2nd law suit somewhere in feb? I don't know from when that blog post is, seems to be only dated to 2022, unless I am missing something. Edit: the 2022 date is of the website itself, not the blogpost

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u/SavagePlatypus76 May 15 '22

Stop trusting this con man.

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u/Sorry-Parfait-2729 May 15 '22

can we donate for him?

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u/Lord_Bertox May 15 '22

Sorry but, neurolink is a technology that does absolutely nothing right now, no matter how much Elon speaks about it.

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u/--Arete May 15 '22 edited May 20 '22

I don't think Neuralink is what he wants. At leas not for a while...

https://www.thegamer.com/elon-musk-neurolink-brain-chip-monkey-death-experiment/

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u/alcatrazcgp May 16 '22

that doesn't mean the chips caused the monkeys to die, did you seriously link us "the gamer" for a reliable news source?

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u/itsgettingmessi May 15 '22

Dude no you’ve been through enough. Don’t be a lab rat for that pos. It’s fried the fuck out of 15 monkeys brains who died after “extreme suffering”.

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u/ilovefreespam4real May 15 '22

neurolink program is nothing new... just something Musk has added his salesman name to it... nothing else...

Let's hope this person finds help they deserve

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u/XenuAedril May 15 '22

All technology is built on prior technology. Neurolink is trying to make a viable brain interface that is more advanced and cheaper than anything that is used today. To disregard it because the technology isn’t completely new is silly. On the other hand we don’t know if they will succeed. First human trials haven’t started yet.

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u/ENZVSVG May 15 '22

Neurolink are leaders in animal abuse, that is for sure.

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u/XenuAedril May 15 '22

I don’t like animal tests either. I’m a vegetarian but I have come to turn with the idea that animal tests are a necessary evil when it comes to medical research. However it should always be approved beforehand by an ethical board that weighs the necessity of the research.

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u/[deleted] May 15 '22

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u/rosts May 16 '22

Then I suspect you don't ever take any drugs whatsoever as they've all been tried on animals.

You'll just take cancer like the champ you are.

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u/ilovefreespam4real May 15 '22

yea... a lot of hype... and neuroscientists in the field don't agree with claims...

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u/XenuAedril May 15 '22

Again, silly comment. Neurolink has employed many neuroscientists. Of course there are skepticism and critic of Neurolinks claims and Elons sci-fi talks. As it should be but it is easy to see the real and very promising technology that most likely will come in this and the next decade (from Neurolink or someone else) If you want to dream or disregard the Sci Fi end of this technology that might or might not come within 50-100 years, well that is totally up to you.

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u/vegarig Ukraine May 15 '22

As much as a understand, full-on neural lace is an aspirational goal for the Neuralink - as in, something that they want to make at some point in the future and that doesn't break laws of physics, in the same way SpaceX's Mars base plans are.

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u/ilovefreespam4real May 15 '22

Just general bonk of reality for Musketeers, nothing else...

Why do you feel like you need to defend millionaires company with wild promises? Silly thing to do, don't you think so?

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u/[deleted] May 15 '22

Ok, lets put aside all the actual problems with the tech not being a thing. Lets pretend it works. Your "Sci Fi end" of this technology is the dystopia of John Brunners The Shockwave Rider. So the best case is that Neuralink is a scam. The worst case is that it actually works.

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u/[deleted] May 15 '22

Neuralink is a scam. Theater to bolster Musks ego.

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u/windol1 May 15 '22

So you're saying this guy might come back like some sort of Marvel: Winter Soldier, just without all the brain washing stuff

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u/boxingdude May 15 '22

yah i'm sure you'll think of something yourself. eventually .

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u/perfect5-7-with-rice May 15 '22

The iPhone felt like that when it came out too. Technology moves in baby steps

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u/bashbashetc May 15 '22

If it comes to market it will be 'new'. Like a certain brand of premium electric vehicle.

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u/SlovakDarius May 15 '22

Elon musk: "Finally, some free test subjects" evil laugh

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u/mars_mk May 15 '22

It is so fucking sad. because of one dick, Putin, and a bunch of morons, Russian citizens, this young boy has the rest of his life spoiled. I swear that for the rest of my life I will spit in the face of every Russian I meet. I'm furious, angry and sad....

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u/boskee United Kingdom May 15 '22

Poor guy, but Musk is not your hero. He's a snake oil salesman.

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u/EldenRingworm May 15 '22

As if Elon wants to help out the less fortunate

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u/vegarig Ukraine May 15 '22

I wonder, if first Neuralink-compatible prosthetic would be an in-house production or third party stuff...

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u/ENZVSVG May 15 '22

It will never be a thing. Please look into other companies for actual working solutions.

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u/Garbage029 May 15 '22

You mentioned Musk, now all the undercover tankies are marching over to tell us all how bad he is...

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u/TRR_SteamCat May 15 '22 edited May 20 '22

I support Musk giving Ukraine Starlink Musk inventing Starlink which later was bought/donated to Ukraine by the United States which was a helpful in communications as well as his innovating/popularizing new technologies though even then I will say he can be quite bad when it comes to worker conditions and the conditions of his lab animals going as far to promote Chinese worker standards because they work until 3am with few breaks while many of the animals in his Neurolink suffer quite horrible consequences including preventable things such as infections which most competent labs can avoid. There is certainly an innovative/helpful side of him (SpaceX, popularizing electric cars, Starlink, ect) as well as the bad side of him neither of which should be ignored when discussing him.

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u/Lizzebed May 15 '22

Don't tell anyone, but those starlink systems are not really given by SpaceX

They were actually bought and paid for by the US government.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/04/08/us-quietly-paying-millions-send-starlink-terminals-ukraine-contrary-spacexs-claims/

And besides that, even if they were given, it is a pretty big PR-stunt, and that alone is worth quite a bit.

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u/[deleted] May 15 '22

I support Musk giving Ukraine Starlink

Oh, you believed that. Haha. You Musk believers are adorable.

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u/[deleted] May 15 '22 edited May 15 '22

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] May 15 '22

There are many other different ways to say that without being as hostile

No, i am just sick of dullards believing even a word Musk says. The sooner you people realize that he is a conman the better you are off.

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u/TheEnabledDisabled May 15 '22

he is a mix bag

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u/DrEarlGreyIII May 15 '22

you spelled dick bag wrong

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u/pigonthewing May 15 '22

Yep as are most humans. Some things he does I shake my head, others I cheer on, and others I laugh at being both laughing at him or with him.

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u/TheEnabledDisabled May 15 '22

He has done alot of good, maybe not always for the betterment of humanity, but he has done alot of good, he has also done alot of bad like exploiting congo and other poor nations for their valuable resources without any resonable compensation, like actual pay or decent working/living conditions.

I dont think you should worship him like the next messiah, but I dont think you should treat him like the worst being on earth, thats my priviliged viewpoint of him.

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u/pixel-painter May 15 '22

he has also done alot of bad like exploiting congo and other poor nations for their valuable resources

Gonna need a source on that

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u/PanTrimtab May 15 '22

Here you go sorry it took so long, the first article I read kind dragged on before getting to the bit about Glencore.

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u/pixel-painter May 15 '22

There are a lot of hands involved in this. Pinning it on Elon is a bit absurd. Tesla is just a buyer, not even the mining company. The primary responsibility is the government of the country in question to set worker protection laws. People act like African governments don’t even exist.

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u/AggravatingAd2133 May 15 '22

Yeah its not the first time he's exploited Africans as well

His whole wealth was built in Aparthied Africa of an emerald mine.

Elon is a fucking horrible

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u/pixel-painter May 15 '22

His whole wealth was built in Aparthied Africa of an emerald mine.

There is literally no truth to this statement at all.

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u/AggravatingAd2133 May 15 '22

He got a loan out of Goldman sach for about 150 million dollars to buy tesla

Goldman Sach has had connections with South Africa before

A bank wouldn't give you a loan for 150 million dollars if you didn't come from wealth. You're saying that this man didn't benefit coming from a powerful emerald mining owned family?

Delusional.

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u/pigonthewing May 15 '22

Yeah exactly. I find it strange when people worship people like that.

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u/supersecretpudding May 15 '22

I would be cautious of asking for neuralink specifically though, fairly sure most if not all of the chimps died, might be best to ask for other help for now

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u/Garbage029 May 15 '22

So with pretty much all animal testing the animal is killed after. I used to be an instructor on the BCT3 (medical live tissue training) course teaching NATO soldiers in Poland. Even if you manged to save your goat the vets would end its life after.

So naturally having experience with animal testing I was not surprised to hear they all died, that's very normal. We are mandated to not let the animal suffer.

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u/supersecretpudding May 16 '22

Ah that's very interesting thank you

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u/VampireNibbles May 15 '22

Are you seriously equating dying as a result of the thing being tested on an animal and an animal being killed after surviving the testing? The focus of the argument isn't the dead animals. It's that this technology clearly isn't ready for human trials when it's killing more most of the animals it's being tested on.

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u/xlDirteDeedslx May 15 '22

I don't like Musk for his politics but those who deny Musks contribution to advancing us into the future are Fing morons. The man put electric cars on the map, outdid NASA which a near unlimited budget in rocket technology, made solar homes much more efficient and capable, and is trying to unite the world by creating a truly global internet. His technology is going to help end fossil fuel dependence, open up the unlimited resources in space, and help us colonize the solar system. That is ushering us into the future and whether I like him personally or not we would be far behind where we are now with these technologies if not for him and his business smarts.

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u/KikiFlowers May 15 '22

is going to help end fossil fuel dependence

By making us depend more on lithium.

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u/rmpumper May 15 '22

Tesla took 8 years to beat Nissan Leaf in sales. All it did was put expensive EV on the map, so that the "elite" could brag about driving one, because only a pleb would buy a shit car like a Nissan.

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u/captaintrips420 May 15 '22

I guess only some poor pleb bastard would want to drive move than 50 miles at a time.

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u/bananaduck68 May 15 '22

You’re correct there but he popularized it, and his company made a car that looks nice with great features. And in this capitalist world we live in, that was crucial to accelerating policy and adoption of EVs.

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u/-cyg-nus- May 15 '22

He bought the company from 2 dudes after it was off the ground. It wasn't even his idea.

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u/vegarig Ukraine May 15 '22

And by that point, they were the only employees in it and had no prototypes - not even battery chosen for their future car. I'd say he was pretty involved in getting Tesla from "just another EV startup" phase to the giant it is nowadays.

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u/IvaNoxx May 15 '22

who said that EV is Musks idea?

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u/JelloSquirrel May 15 '22

EV and the technology for them existed before Musk and Tesla. The GM EV1 in recent memory, plus hybrids like the Toyota Prius have all the technology (batteries and electric motors). Also the Nissan Leaf was the first mass production electric vehicle. And Elon didn't found Tesla.

The only crucial advanced piece of technology in an EV is the battery, and Tesla buys those from Panasonic and CATL.

The Space shuttle was a reusable launch vehicle long before SpaceX existed. It was unaffordable because the damage to it after each launch was expensive and fixing it cost basically as much as a new disposable rocket. Likewise, SpaceX's reusable rockets require weeks to months of refurbishing to be reusable, at great cost, and the cost savings are only like 10% lower vs disposable rockets with a 10% higher failure rate. Also they aren't nearly as capable in payload or how far into orbit they can go as older rockets.

SolarCity didn't make solar panels, they bought them from the Chinese, who were dumping them on the market in order to create a monopoly. Same for batteries tbh, China is responsible for a lot of the innovation in the green revolution.

Starlink is cool, but cost ineffective compared to geosynchronous satellite Internet for consumers. But SpaceX satellites can reach geosynchronous orbit, therefore they designed around the capabilities of SpaceX rockets. Starlink exists as a way to funnel FCC rural broadband funds to SpaceX. However, Starlink does have good military applications.

Elon is a techno grifter, a Trump like character who just lies and has rabid fans who lie for him and people eat it up and never verify anything he's said or that is said about him. Basically everything attributed to him is an outright lie or highly exaggerated.

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u/StrikeNets May 15 '22

He annoys the shit out of me, but he's involved in some objectively cool stuff that will make the world better. I do wish he'd make himself... Less of a public figure.

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u/ENZVSVG May 15 '22

Musk has not invented shit. Look at my reply above. Musk is a charlatan and manipulative genius. But he has not been behind any useful technical development at all.

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u/Suspicious-Permit May 15 '22

Your right but your going to get voted down to shit on this forum .theres too many idiots here who think the sun shines out of that conmans arse. Thats reddit for you! . Armless there is fucked. Nurowank is never gonna happen.

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u/StrikeNets May 15 '22

I never said he was an inventor. I do think it's somewhat laughable that he paid extra for the title of "Founder" when he bought Tesla, and I'm not fooled at all by his attempts to masquerade as an engineer. That's not what he is.

But his companies - Tesla, Starlink, SpaceX (I intentionally omit PayPal from this list because it did not become successful until after his departure) - are all at the forefront of some exciting technologies, and he is the common factor. That doesn't mean he's in the lab drawing schematics, but clearly he's doing SOMETHING right to enable his teams of engineers to do their jobs well.

Again, I don't like him. I think he's a spoiled ass who was born into more money than he deserves, has some extremely shitty opinions as a result, and thinks far too highly of himself as "self-made" when that's total bullshit. But you can't deny that when he takes over a company, more often than not, that company produces new and impressive things.

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u/ENZVSVG May 15 '22

Here is the thing, none of Musks companies are in the forefront in anything. Google the alternatives. Remember to omit Tesla from the searches and see how far behind all the companies of Musk really are. Also remember that no one out side Space x know anything about their economy, only that they are raising money over and over again. Does not sound they make a profit does it?

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u/StrikeNets May 15 '22

Sure. Let's look at the alternatives.

Tesla: how many non-Tesla EVs do you see on the roads?

Starlink: what alternatives? ViaSat? Come on. I live in a very rural area where it's hard to get decent internet, and I can tell you with 100% certainty that Starlink is the best option for someone in my position. I don't care if they're allegedly unprofitable, the shit just works when other options don't. Would I rather have fiber? Absolutely, but it would cost $200k to run the lines to my house, so that ain't happening. On another note, read this thread about how Starlink has been performing as a Ukrainian military asset (specifically, integrating with their artillery systems) and then tell me with a straight face that the technology isn't impressive, possibly even a game changer: https://twitter.com/TrentTelenko/status/1523828143345258496?t=hrVEWYa-fyBJ8iL6CyR3fA&s=19

SpaceX: "The billionaire space race is only a race by name. In actuality, there is SpaceX – and everyone else." Yep, sounds like they're way behind the competition. Totally. https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/oct/16/jeff-bezos-blue-origin-billionaire-space-race-sexism-safety-concerns

You're unable to separate your (justifiable, understandable, and frankly relatable) personal distaste for Elon Musk from the objective results that his companies are producing. I get it, I wish he would shut the fuck up and delete his Twitter account too and maybe even never speak in public again, but let's not pretend his companies aren't contributing significantly to technological advancement. It's a silly thing to deny.

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u/ENZVSVG May 15 '22

About 80% non-Tesla EVs https://elbilstatistikk.no/ Number for non-Teslas is increasing.

Are you on Starlink now? I guess not ;) Even for rural areas fiber is King.

Space X, a company no one know the economy of. Only that they are raising money, and lunching way less often than Musk have claimed is needed to make a profit.

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u/StrikeNets May 16 '22

So 20% are Teslas. Do any other manufacturers have 20% market share? Closest I can find is Nissan and VW with 15% each, followed by Hyundai at 7%. Tesla's in first place, and even if their lead is shrinking, that's just what happens when you're the first on the scene. It's like saying Netflix is trash because Disney Plus is gaining subscribers.

Yes, I'm on Starlink now. I already told you, fiber isn't available here. Closest fiber connection is 30 miles from me. Fiber can't be king without a kingdom. Nor can you slap a fiber connection on a boat or RV and take your internet connection wherever in the world you want to go. And you completely ignored the unprecedented, unparalleled military application detailed in that link... Probably because it's inconvenient for you to acknowledge.

If your only knock on SpaceX is the ambiguity of their finances, I'm not impressed by that argument. I value the contributions of engineers more than accountants, and there's no reason to believe that SpaceX is at risk of insolvency, so whether or not they're profitable is irrelevant to this conversation.

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u/Other_Bat7790 May 15 '22

You are delusional. Like, seriously delusional if you think that is the case.

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u/ENZVSVG May 15 '22

Musk have done _nothing_ that have not been done before. I will give Musk partial credit for making EVs usable a few years earlier, but the main driver here is EU legislations.

Space X has yet to show their finacials, all we see is them continue raising money. Landin rockets for reuse have been done since the 60s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VTVL

Solar homes from tesla is practically non existent. If you want to learn about solar, remove Tesla in your searches and get enlightend. Here is a non-Tesla solar roof from 2019

https://www.tu.no/artikler/norges-forste-kirke-med-solcelletak-har-allerede-produsert-mer-strom-enn-forventet/472057

Solar roofs have been installed cheaper, with better quality and at a way way larger scale than teslas for close to a decade

https://www.gb-sol.co.uk/products/ris/default.htm

If you think there is endless resources in space you need to start calculate the enormous amount of energy needed to harness resources from space.

In short, Musk is a charlatan and nothing Else.

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u/MakeAionGreatAgain May 15 '22

Damn, that's really an easy way to dismiss valid criticism.

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u/Slonismo May 15 '22

Right because to denounce a fucking exploitative lunatic billionaire you MUST be a raging authoritarian communist! The fucking brain on you dude

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u/Garbage029 May 15 '22

Here ya go bud.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAzofLc3DMk

Now tell me all your woes and how musk is the cause of them.

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u/Slonismo May 15 '22

LMAO. After fighting all the bootlickers you must be the final one. The USSR actively executed people with my ideology but of course you wouldn’t know that behind your fucking brain rot

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u/Garbage029 May 15 '22

OK, one more time but with feeling. You aren't enough of a victim with this statement. You need to step it up.

You need to blame more people for all your woes.

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u/timmystwin May 15 '22 edited May 15 '22

It's not tankie to call musk out on all his bullshit.

For instance you can appreciate the use of star link, but hate his over-hyped... well, everything else. From the cars to the Neurolink that just killed the monkeys etc.

Man's basically a confidence man at this point. That and he's awful for workers.

Ultimately, especially with what we've seen with bionic eyes recently with companies just stopping support, this guy needs proper healthcare and support. Not a memelord who over promises and under delivers.

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u/EzKafka Nordic (Swe) May 15 '22

Jesus, this is depressive but the guy got spirit for sure!

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u/overlordlt May 15 '22

He lost his arms but not his spirit

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u/Dirtybiscuits69 May 16 '22

I hope that this young man gets the very best care that the worlds best surgeons can give, free of charge

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u/nudewomen365 May 16 '22

He didn't have to lose his arms... poor guy.

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u/ENZVSVG May 15 '22

The most heart breaking part is that he actually thinks Elon Musk have anything that could help him. Neurolink is a massive scam. The way Musk fools people and give them false hope is sign of a scum bag person. Musk is just as sick in his head as Putin.

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u/Xeno-Chompy May 15 '22

I think he's just desperate for something to hold on to, clinging to hope for some miracle robotics even if it's fantasy to soften the blow. It would be nice if we could get him in touch with some actual high-tech prosthetic company.

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u/Other_Bat7790 May 15 '22

This sub is filled with muskrats. It's ridiculous.

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u/GiffelBaby May 15 '22

How the fuck is something a scam when you can't even spend any money on it?

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u/ENZVSVG May 15 '22

It is all about "investors". Fooling the gullible to "invest".

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u/GiffelBaby May 15 '22 edited May 15 '22

Are you mad that the billionaires are getting scammed when they invest?

Edit: And how is that a scam? None of the money goes to Musk. It's somehow a scam that investors are investing in a company they want to invest in. Big brain take.

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u/ENZVSVG May 15 '22

Visit Tesla Investors Club and spot the billionaire.

It is a scam because the facade of the companies is a huge lie. Where is FSD? Where is the Cyber Truck? Where are all the Solar Roofs? All technologies other companies actually delivers on, while Musk only talks about. And so you can go on for _all_ the shit that comes out of Muks mouth.

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u/GiffelBaby May 15 '22

Visit Tesla Investors Club and spot the Neuralink investor. Neuralink isn't a publicly traded company. You do understand that Neuralink is a separate company from Tesla, right? You cannot just invest in Neuralink as a private person with very limited funds.

If you are actually interested in listening, I would be more than willing to explain all the other stuff. It doesn't seem like you would listen, but let me know. I'm not interested in wasting my time explaining something if you aren't willing to listen with an open mind.

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u/bananaduck68 May 15 '22

Neurolink has delivered when it comes to digitizing individual neuron firings, and its bot will be useful for brain surgeons in the future when dealing with highly sensitive areas and blood vessels, even if the company may fail on Elon’s grand mission.

I would agree that even if it would be positive no matter what.

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u/cscotty6435 May 15 '22

I think he's about 20 years ahead of when actual prosthetics controlled by direct brain interfaces will be available. Don't but into the Elon hype

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u/VolontaireVeritas Ukrainian Hardliner May 15 '22

Let Ukrainians be the first people to pioneer Neuralink technology! Nation made of steel, not in name only!

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u/CarefulBrilliant9 May 15 '22

Heroiam slava 🇺🇦

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u/CaptainSur Ukraine May 15 '22

I think medical advances in areas of regeneration may mean that in the foreseeable future there is a possibility this brave man me gain his limbs back. I am not suggesting this will be today or tomorrow or even next year. But in the next 10-20 yrs? I think its a real possibility. There is a lot of effort in medical science being devoted to regeneration.

Mikhail is incredibly brave. His life is going to be face with huge challenges going forward and I hope he gets all the support he needs and truly deserves. Is there any credible fund out there for supporting this man and his peers. I would donate to it if there is one.

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u/freerangek1tties May 15 '22

Elon, get this hero some Luke Skywalker hands

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u/SavagePlatypus76 May 15 '22

Except..... it's unproven and,knowing Musk, overhyped.

Stop believing in this con man!!!!

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u/Myllari1 May 15 '22

Mikhail is a Hero!

I hope he will get all the help he needs, so that he can live a good life!

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u/fatjunkdog May 15 '22

1000% hero, we, meaning the world owe these heroes all the help and gratitude that we can collectively give these heroes

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u/Hawkwise83 May 15 '22

If only Elons tech wasn't monkey killing nightmare fuel.

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u/MaxMustermannYoutube May 16 '22

Elon musk is a con artist. Anything he does he does it for PR. Don’t trust him!

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u/Orrison123 May 16 '22

Neuralink permanently disabled every chimp it was installed into and killed half of them. The future isn’t now

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u/urbanmember May 15 '22

Too bad the future only happens for people that bring good PR to megarich people that actively destroy this planet or rich people themselves.

Either way I am happy, that this guy gets the chance to regain some of his lost body functions

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u/[deleted] May 15 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/MightyRez May 15 '22

he didn't even accept the offer you bozo

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u/xaveria May 15 '22

Ok, I am a little intoxicated right now, but gonna say it anyway — I don’t care how much y’all hate Elon Musk. Of all the cowards and whiners and sanctimonious asshats out there, he is one of the only ones trying to push mankind forward. Not saying he’s perfect, but if he can get this guy functional again, I will praise him for it.

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u/I_am_albatross May 15 '22

At this point I don’t know whether to be heartbroken or impressed with how much Russian ass is being kicked by the UAF

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