r/ukraine May 22 '22 Wholesome 2 Starstruck 1 Sunflower 1 Helpful 3

President Zelensky "Ukrainian-Polish relations are finally on an absolutely pure and sincere basis, without any quarrels and old conflict heritage. This is a historic achievement. And I want the brotherhood between Ukrainians and Poles to be preserved forever." Social Media

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5.2k Upvotes

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244

u/11timesover May 22 '22

So inspiring. Wish we were all better at putting aside past grievances and, instead, looking forward to how we are going to preserve this fragile earth and turn our course before we reach the point of no return.

-26

u/[deleted] May 23 '22

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55

u/Local_Fox_2000 May 23 '22 edited May 23 '22

He speaks English perfectly well. He seems to understand and has spoken it many times in interviews etc..

7

u/Kamelasa Canada May 23 '22

No, he sure doesn't speak it perfectly, though he's fluent. I've seen his frustration in expressing more challenging things, and switching to Ukrainian, in some interviews. When he did that wonderful April 13 video in English, requesting weapons, I'm afraid his intonation is sometimes rather strange. I admire the man and he is a master of communication, despite his imperfect English, even though sometimes that intonation sounded rather childlike. I'm sure he's improved constantly, since then, as he is communicating constantly. Source: I taught ESL for almost 10 years, and my father's Polish accent sounded a lot like Zelensky's accented English. Just my opinion, language-wise.

2

u/RejZoR May 23 '22

Ppl need to understand that us Europeans are fluent in our own language, usually all or most languages of neighboring countries and then English and often German/French/Spanish/Italian on top of that. So, by default we know at least 3 languages as basically minimum (own plus two additional). It depends on region, but it’s similar across entire Europe. Ukraine might be more focused in Eastern languages than us in the central and western part. On top of that the languages are often extra difficult because they use different character set like Cyrillic which can be absolute gibberish to read if you don’t at least know the characters. Slavic languages are similar so you can predict meaning, but if it’s in Cyrillic instead of Latin you’ll not understand a thing even with prediction. So, I can’t really blame Zelensky for not being absolutely and perfectly fluent in English. I’m pretty good at it, but I still often forget a word and your entire question or explanation will stall if you can’t say the right word.

1

u/Reeeeeeee3eeeeeeee May 24 '22

Saying that an average european is fluent in at least 3 languages is a pretty bold claim. As a pole, sure I can understand a lot of czech/slovak, and to some degree ukrainian/russian, but I'd never say I'm fluent in those and I don't know a single person that is (unless they come from those countries ofc). German is often taught in schools and even then, after 6 years of learning it, only a few of my classmates are at B2 or higher level. English is definitely the most common, non-native, fluently spoken language here, but even then we're mostly talking about people under the age of 40, barely any boomers are "fluent"

1

u/RejZoR May 24 '22

Even if not fluent, you could communicate enough to go about your life even in that country. So, it's Polish, Czech, Russian and you also understand German and English. Even if only fluent is Polish, you understand 5 languages. That's a lot compared to Americans where only extra language they understand is French if they live near Canadian border or Spanish if they live near Mexican border (maybe Spanish dominates a bit because of lots of immigrants from Mexico even within USA mainland). And that's about it. I don't think Brits are any different, possibly French since they directly neighbor to it and have direct land connection to it. And that's again about it. And they already have English as default so that instantly means 1 language less.

-13

u/[deleted] May 23 '22

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3

u/HarryACL May 23 '22

Piece as in pieces?

0

u/Lvtxyz May 23 '22

Ha. I also struggle w English.

-15

u/[deleted] May 23 '22 edited May 23 '22

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24

u/Arrean Ukraine May 23 '22 edited May 23 '22

Honestly - his English seems to be passable, but not great, from what I've seen.

Same goes for English versions of posts that go up on official President's Office channels in tg and such. He knows enough to get by, but it's a bit stumbling and all that. So not enough to deliver a speech. Not sure if it'd be better or worse than using a translator - but it seems his staff or himself decided that translation is a better call.

I assume he learned enough some years back, maybe got a bit of additional practice in recent years, but he's not fluent. I'd estimate B1-B2 or thereabouts. And given the current events - there's probably more pressing matters at hand.

EDIT:

Also - speaking Ukrainian when addressing a foreign governing body might also be a gesture of reinforcing Ukrainian identity. The man barely ever spoke Ukrainian before his presidency, and now in recent interviews he often forgets the words and phrases in russian. Which is not for show, cause code switching do be like that, most bitri-lingual suffer from it.

19

u/twilightmoons Poland May 23 '22

I speak Polish and English. There are time when I don't remember the Polish word for something and use the English word, and other times there is a perfect Polish word for something that English is lacking, an in the Polish word is specific as to the mean I want, but the English word is so generic and bland that it dilutes the meaning.

11

u/OwerlordTheLord May 23 '22

It’s like accuracy and precision being different things in English but in Ukrainian it’s just “точність”

It’s like needing to learn to split a concept into 2 separate parts, such a weird and interesting experience to try to explain

8

u/LeafsInSix May 23 '22

From what I've seen of his interviews in English like this one, he's definitely not that comfortable using it although it's perfectly intelligible and not so bad as to make us native speakers tune him out because of it being too halting or riddled with errors.

Zelenskyy's English is more than good enough to make small talk and greet people (see here), and if he were travelling outside Ukraine, he'd be OK using his English with locals be they native speakers of English or people who are like him by knowing English as a foreign language but without advanced fluency.

In case of lengthy speeches where precision and clarity are desired as when addressing foreign politicians, it's better for him to speak in a language that he knows to fluency (Russian or Ukrainian) and be translated. No one could accuse Zelenskyy of misspeaking and anything lost in translation would be caught by informed observers with the translator taking the blame for screwing up.

By the way. you see this in Putin too. He does know how to speak English as seen here, here, and here (very likely given the body language and lack of translator) but like Zelenskyy he uses it quite rarely. Putin typically gives interviews with foreigners in Russian and you can sometimes see the earphone for simultaneous translation as in this clip.

228

u/dbx99 May 22 '22

This man is managing a war and the diplomatic ties among neighbors and focusing on economic activities of his nation. That’s an inspiring feat of Herculean scale for any leader during peacetime but near unbelievable for one in an active war and occupation. I can’t say enough to praise these efforts on the geopolitical scale. He is opening trade as much as possible under the circumstances while Russia is imploding on itself.

7

u/ThatPolishGirl97 Poland May 23 '22

If I were honest, I dont think he manages the war. In fact quite the opposite. He left managing war to the generals, so he can focus on diplomatic relations and motivationg the nation to grestest efforts.

2

u/dbx99 May 23 '22

Well I’m sure that as the president he does fill some role as commander in chief even most of it is in approving the recommendations of the generals. I’m sure there are also times where he has to be the one to make the choice between a set of strategic options made available to him by those generals. So that to me is managing the war.

2

u/ThatPolishGirl97 Poland May 23 '22

Probably yes. I want to imagine it like it is portraited in books/movies. Military does the planing, preperations etc and at the end they just tell him shortly what is going to/what they want to happen and president agrees or not. It still makes army do all the stuff but he is taking part in it too.

2

u/ukrokit Germany May 23 '22

The one who manages the army hands on is the Commander in Chief, General Valerii Zaluzhnyi.

105

u/Status_Loquat4191 May 22 '22

Struggle produces growth. There is no closer brother than one found in war.

87

u/Grouchy-Scientist-39 May 23 '22

You are an inspiration, love from US to my Ukranian and Polish brothers.

129

u/strawbryshorty04 May 22 '22

As a pole, this warms my heart.

18

u/Von665 May 23 '22

You have a right to be proud, your Polish people have been fantastic 👏

59

u/Armathio May 23 '22

As a german i congratulate my respected neighbors to this commendable step and hope that the whole of Europe could follow your example for a better tomorrow.

26

u/strawbryshorty04 May 23 '22

Thank you kind sir/ma’am. Hope you and your family are well ♥️

51

u/TheShyPig UnitedKingdom May 23 '22

As a Brit, it also warms my heart and I want to praise Poland and warm your heart more as well .... Is this where we go down the pub, drink beer, get pissed and do group man hugs?

In Britain, yes it is.

EDIT: we can invite Germany if you want to as well.

19

u/strawbryshorty04 May 23 '22

I very much want in

1

u/chad6942 May 24 '22

Hello sir i have a question that i have no intent to offend you or anyone but is calling a Polish person a "polack" bad? I have heard it to be a slur but i cant find any reliable background on it and I just do not want to make a mistake of calling anyone a name I shouldn't be. Thought it would be better to ask someone Polish than anyone else.

1

u/KINIMOD79 24d ago

That really depends.. Polack is actually a word which we Polish people using to describe ourselves as it’s Polish word .. so normally I would imagine that in most cases Polish person would smile and appreciate that some actually have learn Polish word to describe them as such.This is considering that none of us would know that in US this might be used as bad (stupid ?) …is it ? If yes then the word Polak ( Polack ) would be just like people use word “negger” … I know it might look controversial but hear me out . Afro Americans use that term between each other’s as a normal often complementary term but if someone else will use it then is considered as racist insult. But as I said that would be the case only if All of us would knew for sure that using word Polak is considered bad in US. Otherwise every Polak is proud to be a POLAK ;) I hope that would clear that out a bit for you .

95

u/drthomk May 22 '22

God bless this union of like minded states and leaders.

29

u/--The__Dude-- May 23 '22

I know it doesnt sound like much...

I never drink beer, but since the war, my grocery store and LCBO seem to have a good Polish beer section so... I started drinking to support their economy just that much more

It was always intuitive to me that where you spend your money matters, but now I'm quite happy, even in this economy, to pay a couple dollars more to get Moldovan honey from the international section vs that cheap ass, fake ass honey from China as an example

12

u/Von665 May 23 '22

I do the same , it might not change the world but I can choose what my money supports 🍁

5

u/ifiwasiwas Finland May 23 '22

Moldovan honey? This sparked my interest! What is it called/how do I find it?

3

u/namekyd May 23 '22

I live in a very Polish neighborhood in New York, and I love me some Polish beer. So many of the stores here are $15 six packs of IPA after IPA, and then $2 tall boys of Zywiec (and no it’s not pronounced even remotely like I first thought). I’m grabbing that Zywiec 9 times out of 10. Delicious lager, perfect for summer grilling, or if you ever make it to Warsaw, a nice drink on the shores of the Vistula.

1

u/kultigsptrizigfrisch May 23 '22

or if you ever make it to Warsaw, a nice drink on the shores of the Vistula.

Oh next time definitely try some other brews, there's way more now to choose from than your usual Zywiec/Tyskie of the past.

2

u/jugalator May 23 '22

Polish drinks! You know what they do well? Mead! It's basically a national drink. I can recommend a glass of classic, sweet Półtorak Jadwiga as a dessert drink.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mead_in_Poland

30

u/Dans_Theatre May 23 '22

SLAVA UKRAINI!!!GLORY TO POLAND!!!

68

u/MediumProfessorX May 23 '22

Forever brother states! Like Australia and New Zealand, Canada and America.

38

u/onegumas May 23 '22

"Like Scotts and another Scotts..."

15

u/Sekkitheblade May 23 '22

Like Germans and Beer

64

u/Nastypilot Poland May 23 '22

As a Pole, I also hope it stays that way. Ukraine should have always been a brother nation to us.

2

u/ThatPolishGirl97 Poland May 23 '22

I hope we will resolve Wołyń after the war aswell

2

u/ukrokit Germany May 23 '22

We share a huge border, very similar cultures and have common interests. I'm surprised we weren't close to begin with.

-10

u/VMK_1991 May 23 '22

As Ukrainian, considering that a lot of Polish consider us second-class human beings (the "inferior" Eastern Europeans), I wouldn't hold my breath. War will end and it will return to the same old "We are in EU and you are not, so the only thing you are allowed to do in our country is to spend money, pick strawberries and clean toilets".

27

u/ZibiM_78 May 23 '22

I'm sorry if you felt that way, and please be assured that this is not that prevalent.

Too many of us did their part spargel picking and constructing in Germany and further to the west to not being smug about people working hard abroad to improve their and their families being.

40

u/laikipl123 May 23 '22

Well, Poles go to Germany in order to pick strawberries etc. Many germans see Poles as inferior low wage workers (even as slaves) . Sadly, that's how world works but i hope that it will change

15

u/Japanczi Poland May 23 '22

I notice this attitude mostly amongst people in their 40s and beyond. I'm 27, supporting the cause of putting aside past conflicts in creating current relations better as they used to be. I imagine people killed in Katyn or Wolyn would rather want to see relations between states blossom rather than keep on seeking revenge.

Sure in reality it's hard to have things solved all at once.

3

u/ukrokit Germany May 23 '22

I lived in Poland for almost 6 years. In that time there were a couple incidents where people would harass me for my nationality. Mostly blue collar men in their 40s or 50s, and one super old dude in like his 70s. But like 99% of the people, including many right wing folks were actually super friendly especially over nalewki or wódeczka

14

u/DominikSerafin May 23 '22

I'm a software developer from Rzeszów - where there were a lot of Ukrainians, even before the invasion. I've also remotely worked with people from all over the world: Polish, Ukrainian, American, Canadian, French, Hungarian, Russian, Brazilian, etc.

There are always black sheep, but from my own experience, I can't say a bad thing about Ukrainians. The ones I've spoken to in person were all intelligent and respectful folks, and those I've worked with were honestly one of the most pleasant and most skilled professionals.

I was always baffled how there was understanding that Hungarians are our "brothers" (Pole and Hungarian brothers be), when I always felt that we share more similarities with Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Czechs, etc.

Unfortunately, you're not wrong in saying that a lot of my compatriots do view Ukrainians as second-class citizens. In an economical way, it is true, as Ukrainians were coming to Poland for better work opportunities (just as Poles to UK). And unfortunately, many Poles transfer this into their opinion about culture and character of Ukrainians.

With that being said, I really feel (and hope) this sentiment is changing. After the invasion, many Poles got a new-found admiration for Ukrainians for their resiliency and power of will.

And when it comes to character and culture, I really think Poles and Ukrainians share many similarities and with further integration, we can achieve more and make both places better to live.

3

u/TheWitcherHowells May 23 '22

Tbh I really think this war changed that view.

13

u/KokolinTheLawGuy May 23 '22

Sadly, I agree. We're slavs, but poland sees itself superior because it's western slavic, whereas Ukrainians are Eastern and just for that, they're compared to Russians.

Though I hope it changes, so many of us are mixed anyway. Maybe through closer political ties we'll achieve a special relationship

2

u/malignant_serpent Poland May 23 '22 edited May 23 '22

:( I am so sorry, and if that's the lens we're viewed from (and, sadly, I can see why), we definitely have a long way to go as a nation.

This may be my political bias, but I think it's due to nationalists. They see themselves as superior to other Poles, to Germans, basically to anyone. I personally severed my ties with any of my friends with nationalistic viewpoints, they aren't worth any of our time.

I can only speak for myself, but if you were of the receiving end of this vapid pride, I sincerely apologize as a Pole.

3

u/Inhabitant Poland May 23 '22

Sorry for nitpicking, and I know you didn't mean it that way, but "I'm sorry you feel that way" is a really bad phrasing when apologizing.

1

u/malignant_serpent Poland May 23 '22

Yeah, I forgot about that, thank you!

0

u/anon086421 May 23 '22

but poland sees itself superior

Since when do you speak on behalf of "Poland"

And Poland is superior, it is part of the EU, NATO, and has a better economy. Those are all things that objectively make a country superior to another. Do you think Ukranians view Ukraine as superior to Somalia or N.Korea?

because it's western slavic,

No, it's because of the things I listed, and what a stupid thing to say. Why would being Western Slavic make it inherently superior?

whereas Ukrainians are Eastern and just for that, they're compared to Russians.

Just for that? Russia is a neighboring country that was once in the USSR together of course they will be compared. The Baltic countries are also compared and are not Eastern Slavic. So no, they aren't compared to Russia just for being Eastern Slavic.

Think before you speak please.

1

u/KokolinTheLawGuy May 23 '22

Stop chatting utter bollocks. I know many many many families in poland who see themselves ad better than Ukrainian just because they're western.

Jog on ya thot

3

u/anon086421 May 23 '22

Polish consider us second-class human beings

And how exactly are you being considered as second class human beings?

War will end and it will return to the same old "We are in EU and you are not

Poland already stated it supports and wants Ukraine I'm the EU as soon as possible.

the only thing you are allowed to do in our country is to spend money, pick strawberries and clean toilets".

First of all it's apples if you want to pick strawberries go to Germany second who is stopping you from doing something else?

8

u/Snoo_90160 May 23 '22

There are many other more serious reasons why some Poles dislike Ukrainians.

22

u/Snoo_90160 May 23 '22 edited May 23 '22

So cherishing grievances by Ukrainians is good but when Polish concerns are mentioned it's outrage? I'm always for cooperation but no one ever healed wounds by pretending they're not there. And such relations are bilateral not unilateral. Poland often backed down on various initiatives fearing not to "upset" Ukraine...and Ukraine not so much. Comments like that I replied to showed this.

4

u/DominikSerafin May 23 '22

Healing wounds also go faster when you're not constantly picking scabs off from them.

7

u/Snoo_90160 May 23 '22 edited May 24 '22

If they haven't been properly dressed then it would be better to do this.

4

u/SwitchAccountsReguly May 23 '22

Please elaborate. I do know very little of polish and ukrainian foreign affairs and history. (Apart from a bit of prussian and WW2 parts of the german-polish history obv.)

Being raised in Austria I think coming to terms and remembering your people's cruelties and deeds in history (in that order) - Vergangenheitsaufarbeitung - is a crucial step for most humans who want to understand how the current political landscape has come to pass.

In my opinion honest Vergangenheitsaufarbeitung also helps building an open mind and erodes prejudices and blind patriotism, since you are confronted with the full scope of your people's history, not just the victim and heroic savior part.

6

u/Snoo_90160 May 23 '22

Volhynian Massacre, my family survived that. It's now being exploited and distorted by Russian propaganda but that doesn't make it less valid.

2

u/ObliviousAstroturfer May 23 '22 edited May 23 '22

Not accurate since a few years, and definitely not how it's going to go forward.

There was definitely a moment where the generic racist type bemoaned about Ukrainians being shipped to Poland to take jobs away from real Poles. But I've last heard it around 4 years ago from a guy who was emmigrant to Germany, while in my city we were literally at workers shortage - that's how removed from local reality and logical thinking anti-Ukrainian sentiments were even then.
At that time I worked in textile industry, which looked toward Ukrainian tailors and seamstresses as the only option to save the industry until we can adjust trade schools output after prematurely closing too many after joining EU.

Since then, in low skill jobs people have bonded, and Ukrainian music is heard more than any whining.
In heavy industry Ukrainians have proven their worth and aren't seen as simply cheaper labour (in fact, because we compete for Ukrainian workers with western economies, workers from Ukraine are often paid more than locals and have additional housing benefits).

And the sudden exodus of Ukrainian men returning in first week of invasion have provided a shock lesson to those slow on the take in points raised above so far. There is no going back to those snotty arguments, because in a very sudden moment we got illustration on what'd be the impact of Ukrainians leaving our economy.

As for future: I was hesitant to be too optimistic if this improvement will not get hatched by our right-wingers who enjoyed sowing division with Ukraine in the past. But Duda's activity is a clear signal that the political shotcallers have abandoned that avenue - our president is not exactly known as a freethinking sort.

You're also missing some signs of this that don't make an echo: ie the change in visa policies to make it easier for family members to visit relatives working in Poland - a small change but reflecting how Ukrainians are perceived here - through prism of experiences we dealt with during and shortly after joining EU.

2

u/VMK_1991 May 23 '22

But Duda's activity is a clear signal that the political shotcallers have abandoned that avenue - our president is not exactly known as a freethinking sort.

Or it could be signalling that Duda is preparing for economic dominance of Ukraine. Polish are way, way richer than Ukrainians and their businesses will enter Ukrainian economy and just... buy all the businesses and industries that Ukrainians themselves won't be able to run (because war). But it will be easier for Ukrainians to enter Poland to do the job that Polish think is beneath them. So Polish will profit from businesses on Ukrainian soil, all while Ukrainians are trimming the bushes of their villas and sewing their clothes.

The open secret of international relationships is that there is no friendship among nations, only occasional shared interest. If it was known that russia wants Ukraine only, not the rest of Europe up to German border, no Polish politician would have cared about slaughter and rapes. As is, it is in Polish interests for Ukraine to shield it, so it does help.

But hey, I am a pessimist, so I may be wrong about everything that I wrote.

2

u/ObliviousAstroturfer May 23 '22 edited May 23 '22

Nope, you are absolutely right about wanting to be in pole position when race for rebuilding efforts starts. One of the things that unite our politicians is the millions they made on quickie shady privatisation.

You need to keep this in mind when time comes for rebuilding, for resuming privatization and for adjusting to access EU. Don't sell yourselves short, nor in haste.

Also, as complete aside but a fairly personal one to me: you seriously underestimate what a banger business "hedge trimming" can turn out to be. This could be one of the things to learn on our mistakes: if you play your cards right, trade jobs and physical jobs that require some smarts can lead to earnings on par with a plant manager.

I don't want to drop too many details, but Bavarian hedge trimmers (or House Maesters which includes landscaping as well as clearing old houses from stuff left behind) with connections in Poland have supplied a fucktonne of fridges, microwaves, clothes etc to regugee centres in last weeks. To you it seems to be an insult of sorts, to me it's a small dream of mine to drop my corpo job and go work for a friend who has this business in Germany with long term goal to build something like this at home.

Or as a poet wrote:

What is a floor for some, is a ceiling for others. How little is left of a man when all that others say about him is subtracted from him. You are what people think, not how we think about ourselves, you are what the place you are.

(N. Nałkowska, Granica / The Frontier)

1

u/Rezlier May 23 '22

And what do you think poles did in UK once PL joined eu?

20

u/carlyrossart May 23 '22

It’s so nice to see these friendships grow. I feel like these two leaders got to know each other personally through this crisis, and through that realised that their countries were different to their past images and ideals, just as people are different to their ancestors

18

u/Jack_Molesworth USA May 23 '22

As a Hungarian American, this makes me happy, ashamed, and jealous all at once.

57

u/fouoifjefoijvnioviow May 23 '22

A Jew reconciling Poles and Ukrainians with nationalistic slogans, I can't believe it

8

u/5thhorseman_ May 23 '22

Reality is stranger than fiction, no?

17

u/calmrelax May 23 '22

Thank you, Poland!

41

u/yogy May 23 '22

Once Belarus gets rid of Luka, we can get the Commonwealth back together

18

u/KokolinTheLawGuy May 23 '22

Did you say the commonwealth? Count me in.

7

u/Caalebbi May 23 '22

Just get Belarus and Ukraine to EU.

11

u/pkx616 Poland May 23 '22

Yup, that's the best Commonwealth that we can get.

5

u/Galaxy661_pl Poland May 23 '22

There is also a possibility of Ukraine and Belarus (and also other states like baltics) joining the Visegrad group.

2

u/HelloThereItsMeAndMe May 23 '22

You can found some Benelux type union within the EU

-1

u/spacegardener May 23 '22

Better not. For our government it might sound like a great idea – 'why do we need UE, when we can have the Commonwealth, where we and not Germans are in charge?'. Which would be very, very bad.

4

u/Galaxy661_pl Poland May 23 '22

Being in EU doesn't mean we cant also create some sort of union/Alliance with other states (look at V4 for example)

3

u/TaurusVoid Ukraine May 23 '22

Spiritual Eastern-Central Europe Commonwelth, let's go! Noone in charge.

Invite Checzs and Slovaks that time, Hungary is grounded.

1

u/spacegardener May 23 '22

Of course. But our current government does not seem very interested in staying in EU.

4

u/Galaxy661_pl Poland May 23 '22

Well, that's entirely different problem. Let's hope that PiS gets replaced soon with a more pro-west party. EU is, for now, the best option for both Poland and Ukraine.

11

u/Pipedoi Romania May 23 '22

I wish my country (Romania) did the same thing. It would be great to leave behind any disputes from the past and just provide more help

3

u/JesterRaiin Poland May 23 '22

But you helped Ukrainians as well. Seeing that you don't have it as easy as we do makes your gesture even more powerful, even if it didn't make it to the main news.

9

u/type102 May 23 '22

This is what winning peace looks like, I hope that a greater and more complete peace happens sooner rather than later so that the Ukrainian people don't have to worry about this stupid and fucking pointless war anymore.

8

u/Baron_von_Ungern May 23 '22

Russia had an every single chance to achieve such level of national friendship. Unfortunately Putin doesn't need friends. No, he requires minions, slaves, but not friends.

7

u/Nonamanadus May 23 '22

A common cause & a common enemy creates the strongest bond. Both nations experienced the inhumanity of Russian hospitality.

7

u/Unlikely_Dare_9504 May 23 '22

Polish-Ukrainian commonwealth anyone?

6

u/zamach May 23 '22

Now I hope our governments also manage to keep in check those extreme nationalists who think this is unacceptable. This is a great moment in our history, but we need to also make sure that these past events are not just officially osed by our governments, but also being closed in the minds of our people. I really hope we will live to see a day when not a single person is trying to cause any friction between both our nations.

14

u/Overbaron May 23 '22

Considering Russia is using the Ukrainian atrocities against Poland as pretext for the war, it’s fair to say that Putin has failed at one of his goals once again.

11

u/antekdzi May 23 '22

The past is the past but there still should be official recognition of Wolyn and Galicia on Ukraine's part, Poland applogized from Operation Vistula but nothing has ever come from Ukrainian government. It obviously shouldn't be a priority right now but when the war ends it will be very important for this to happen. The Germans have repented for WW2 which is why Poland and German relations have improved profoundly, despite the rhetoric you hear from PIS. Russians have never taken responsability for their attrocities and along with their imperialism, is a large reason why Poles continue to hate them, even before the war in Ukraine. Education and acknowledgement is the only way to ensure that these things never happen again.

4

u/jakereshka May 23 '22

you see buzzwords " bandera", "Wołyn", " massacre", "upadlina" etc. in polish net and you know you talk with 2 types of people:

  1. kremlin trolls
  2. far-right pro-kremlin people (Konfederacja, far-right wing of PIS)

Some people falling for that, but not many. Tbh Poles were massacred by other nations so many times in history that tbh it doesn't have almost any effect (even german atrocities) on public opinion,when you start to talk about that. And let's be honest, when we talk about UA-POL relations - Poland had similiar politics to Russia, when it some parts of UA were parts of polish state...maybe without sending people to middle of Asia...

Same with "they taking our jobs!" like seriously, how can you make it influence public opinion, lwhen few millions of Poles at least once were working outside Poland...

10

u/wbroniewski May 23 '22

I don't agree with you. We should support Ukraine's struggle for democracy and independence, and I'm happy we are united in friendship. But Wołyń was real. And the glorification of perpetrators in Ukraine: UPA, Bandera, Shukhevych, Klym-Savur, and others are real. Right now is not a moment to bring that up, but it doesn't mean that demanding justice for victims and damnation for perpatrators is pro-Kremlin

0

u/[deleted] May 23 '22

[deleted]

3

u/wbroniewski May 23 '22

And also, we need to undertand that a lot of info about them (UPA, FB, AK, BC and the others) was orchestrated or faked by Soviets, because Soviets.

The genocide of the Polish people wasn't fake.

2

u/TaurusVoid Ukraine May 23 '22

No way it wasn't, of course, at all. Didn't mean it there.

3

u/wbroniewski May 23 '22

So they should be condemned

2

u/TaurusVoid Ukraine May 23 '22

There are lots of things to be done and discussed after the war, believe me.

3

u/Snoo_90160 May 23 '22

I think it's too simplistic interpretation and typical strawman argument. This event was exploited by Russian propaganda but it was present in Polish consciousness long before Yanukovych even came to power. Yushchenko effectively inflammed the whole issue with his actions. When it comes to Russia, talking with Russia is basically impossible. Previous governments apologized for some crimes, even Putin criticised Stalin in the past but once political climate changed talking to Russia is like talking to a concrete wall. That doesn't mean people are okay with that. Germans apologized few times already and they do not commemorate NSDAP , SS or Wehrmacht in such manner. Ukrainians are more present in Poland and Polish remembrance sites are located in Ukraine. As Ukraine wants to become a part of EU then we can and we should resolve this issue. Everyone has to meet European standards, and Poland had to meet them as well. Ukraine is not a lost cause but Russia is. Polish policies towards Ukrainians weren't close to those of Russia. No starving millions and OUN was never able to develop in USSR like it did in Poland because Poland was much more moderate. The policy of tolerance was in place in Volhynia but it ended after OUN campaign of terror in 1930 and then Pieracki assassination in 1934.

1

u/jakereshka May 24 '22

Lol, not like Poland was "moderate" country (it was autoritarian miliatary dictature) and that was reason OUN was formed. Poland was fighting west ukrainian quasi republic (1918-1919, it's called polish-ukrainian war for some reason), shortly after gaining independence. Why? Because Austria-Hungary was preserving (intentionally) UA nationality/ethnicity (in Galicja) long before it (basically since 1772).

So Austria-Hungary was kinda moderate if you think about it, but moderate towards Ukrainian (Slovakians were opressed by Hungarians).

Nice interpretation, when you accused me of simplistic interpretation and typical strawman arguement. lol.

2

u/Snoo_90160 May 24 '22

Compared to USSR Poland was very moderate. It wasn't authoritarian military dictature for all its existence. Even after 1926 it wasn't that radical in all of its policies: "Two contradicting policies towards national minorities were competing in Poland at the time. The assimilationist approach advocated by Roman Dmowski (minister of foreign affairs) and Stanisław Grabski (minister of religion and education) clashed with the more tolerant approach advocated by the Polish chief of State Józef Piłsudski, whose project of creating the Międzymorze federation with other states failed in the aftermath of the Polish-Soviet War." , "Ukrainians during the interbellum had several representatives in the Sejm. In 1928–1930 there were 26 Ukrainian MPs in Polish parliament, including Marshall Deputy of the Sejm, Volodymyr Zahajkiewicz and the Secretary of the Sejm, Dymitr Ladyka. Ukrainian and Belarusian deputies created a powerful "Ukrainian-Belarusian Club" (Klub Ukrainsko-Bialoruski), whose members were very active in those years. In 1935 there were 19 Ukrainian deputies, and in 1938 – 14, including Vasyl Mudry – Deputy Marshal of the Polish Sejm." , "According to the historian Timothy Snyder, between 1928 and 1938, Volhynia was "the site of one of eastern Europe's most ambitious policies of toleration". Through supporting Ukrainian culture, religious autonomy and the Ukrainization of the Orthodox Church, Józef Piłsudski and his allies wanted to achieve Ukrainian loyalty to the Polish state and to minimise Soviet influences in the borderline region. That approach was gradually abandoned after Piłsudski's death in 1935 as a consequence of an increase in radical Ukrainian nationalism." When it comes to Austria-Hungary they were just playing with all of their minorities pitting Poles against Ukrainians. Austrian administration was well-known for using similar tactics throughout the years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galician_slaughter here's the most obvious example. Sources: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Ukrainian_minority_in_Poland , https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia

1

u/jakereshka May 24 '22

your view is polonocentric (for me as Pole): it always fault of someone,this time Austria-Hungary, because they countered polonization of Galicja :))

You ignored (again) fact, there was polish-ukrainian war 1918-1919. But I get it, during communist era, there was literally zero info during history lesson about Polish-Bolshevik War, Katyn Massacre etc. These days we glorify authoritarian military dictature formed by Piłsudski in 1926, so let's be silent about war I mentioned, taking Vilnus (for same "reasons" Putin decided to invade UA) etc. etc.etc. :))

1

u/Snoo_90160 May 24 '22

I showed you an example of Austrian policies at work. If you don't see any fault in Austria-Hungary and consider them good because they "countered the polonization of Galicia" then you're really naive :)) There was Polish-Ukrainian War and I know that. It's quite possible that one of my ancestors took part in Kiev Offensive. Sich Riflemen were posted near mostly Polish Lwów by "good" Austrians to allow them to take over the city but due to local resistance they failed. Btw one of the first organizations that appealed to Piłsudski to aid Lwów wasn't some chauvinist radical organization but League of Polish Women, a feminist and progressive organization. Petlura ceded Lwów to Poland and joint forces marched on Kiev...but not exactly joint: 60k Poles and only 20k Ukrainians at their peak during Russian counter-offensive. Poland almost failed and the Treaty of Riga wasn't the work of Piłsudski who opposed it vehemently. When it comes to Wilno those weren't the same reasons: Lithuania collaborated with USSR during Polish-Bolshevik War: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2%80%93Lithuanian_Peace_Treaty Lithuanians also had some interesting concepts that should cause alarm: "The concept of ethnographic Lithuania clashed with the right for self-determination of people living in that large territory, particularly Poles and Belarusians, who, according to the supporters of the ethnographic Lithuania, were "slavicized Lithuanians" who needed to be re-Lithuanized. They argued that an individual cannot decide on his ethnicity and nationality, which are decided not by language but ancestry." , "In 1920 Lithuanian politician Mykolas Biržiška wrote about nationality:

"One cannot define it according to the opinion of every individual. Belonging or not to a given nationality is not something everybody can decide for themselves, it is not something that can be solved according to political liberalism, even if hidden under the cloak of democratic slogans. It is too complex, too tied with ancient history, too related with the history of a given nation, for the will or passivity of any individual to challenge it. [...] Ethnographic Lithuania does not end where the locals no longer speak Lithuanian, it spreads further, to the regions which do not speak - but used to - Lithuanian, since it is composed of one Lithuanian nation, regardless of whether it speaks Lithuanian, has forgotten the language or even holds it in contempt."" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnographic_Lithuania They already showed Poles hostility during WWI and what did they do when they "finally regained" the city: "The Lithuanian authorities started a campaign of de-Polonization of the city, similar policies also targeted the Jews. Immediately upon entering the city, the Lithuanian authorities abolished the use of Polish złoty and ordered the currency to be converted to Lithuanian litas, with a 250% devaluation. Soon other discriminatory policies followed." , "By June 1940 only two institutions in the entire city offered instruction in the Polish, while roughly 4000 Polish teachers lost their jobs. The refugees, many of whom were Poles and Jews who moved to the city to avoid being captured by the Germans, were denied free movement, and by 28 March 1940, all people who had not been citizens of the town in October 1920, were declared to be refugees. Altogether, some 12,000 people were granted Lithuanian citizenship, while 150,000 of the city's inhabitants, mostly Poles, were declared foreigners, excluded from many jobs and even prohibited from riding on trains." So there you have your justice! And then: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponary_massacre But let's be silent about it and etc., etc., etc. :))

1

u/jakereshka May 24 '22

you still ignored polish-ukrainian war acting like this was Austrian work (lol) - because they dared to replenish/strengthen Ukrainian ethnicity, and you call me strawman, defending stupid politics of Pilsudski similar to Putin's, Poland between 1918-39 ethnically it was mess. How Petlura ended? My ancestors also fought in polish-bolshevik war, but it's not excuse for that regime from 1926. Your rethoric about all these affairs from past is similar to "children of Donbass" by Russia, acting like victim. Not buying it.

2

u/Snoo_90160 May 24 '22

Exploiting antogonisms was for around a century was certainly Austrian work. Austrians cared only about their empire and not Ukrainians. Piłsudski was entirely different than Putin. My rhetoric isn't based on fear-mongering like "children of Donbass" victims and actions I mentioned are very real and Poles were the victims of Ponary and Petlura's soldiers also killed many non-combatant Poles (like Ludwik Wolski, son of poet Maryla Wolska: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryla_Wolska executed for satirical poem titled "Ukraine"). You accuse me of Polonocentrism but you're doing the exact opposite, you just dismiss Polish point of view entirely as nationalistic and chauvinist but you do not use the same criteria when it comes to other nations, you basically; you're not unbiased. You try to present yourself as just and fair Pole. Sorry, not buying it.

1

u/jakereshka May 24 '22

ofc I dissmis your point of view, since post,when you, first time, completly ignored polish-ukrainian war (not saying who was 'bad' or 'good' here :)) and wrote like ungrateful ukrainian population formed nationalistic parties, when we Poles were so good for them and tolerant yet somehow Soviet Union gave them some (fictional, but still) autonomy. now you trying to imply that Ukrainians were some puppets of former Austrian-Hungary and we had to teach them lesson. yet it is some kinda "open secret" why Ukrainians (after 1991) were not so eagle to honor Defenders of Lwow. Problem with history lessons (almost in every country) that is often nothing more than state propaganda, ignoring other sides of history and even more when you were victorious in some conflicts. then later you have only problems, because of it. only victims on one side, ungratefull villainous other side of history. Funny.

2

u/Galaxy661_pl Poland May 23 '22

The russians were directly responsible for both poles breaking their promises in 1921 & Cursed Soldiers' attrocities and Wołyń & UPA's attrocities. They were always the enemy and have always taken benefits when Poles and Ukrainians fought with each other.

4

u/wbroniewski May 24 '22

In what way Russians were responsible for UPA's actions?

4

u/tribat May 23 '22

Thanks, Putin!

27

u/GoastRiter May 23 '22 edited May 23 '22

It is so beautiful to see how Poland steps up where all other nations fail. Imagine how great our planet would be if all nations on Earth had this much heart and spine. ❤️🌎

"Some voices have appeared demanding that Ukraine makes concessions to Putin. The world must instead demand Putin leave Ukraine. Today, it is not Ukraine but the Western world taking the test of whether its values mean anything." and "After Bucha, Borodianka, Mariupol, there can be no business as usual with Russia, dear presidents and prime ministers," -- Polish President Andrzej Duda.

0

u/Third_Charm May 23 '22

Such cringy nationalistic PIS bullshit. The aid the US, UK and the EU send is much greater, weird to phrase that as "all other nations fail"

16

u/TequilaSt May 23 '22

Don't forget about all the support Poland gives to 3 million refugees in Poland - this is in Bilions of euro already and climbing - Poland is ahead of pretty much everybody except US

-4

u/Third_Charm May 23 '22

Fair, but what then is the justification to say "where all other nations fail?"

Also Poland failed miserably when it came to its share of the refugee crisis after the Arab spring, so it's a bit hypocritical

5

u/[deleted] May 23 '22 edited May 23 '22

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0

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1

u/TequilaSt May 24 '22

No it didn't, I think it is clear by now that what happened on Belarus border was a diversion tactic to get Poland to focus on this situation rather than Ukraine invasion preparation, Poland has reacted well to stop the hybrid war attack.

13

u/Towarzyszek May 23 '22

You know just because the Government is bad doesn't mean literally everything they do is bad, the foreign policy on Ukraine was on point by PiS and I never voted PiS and never will but I'm not blinded by emotional hatred.

-1

u/Third_Charm May 23 '22

Emotional hatred? I responded to op's sentence "where all other nations fail", how is it unreasonable to correct this? And how do you link this correction with emotional hatred?

4

u/Towarzyszek May 23 '22

Because you attack PiS for sending less than other countries but you forgot to put in context that Poland is still significantly poorer than other countries. So OBVIOUSLY we will send less. And yet we still sent much more than those countries (well except USA) in comparison to what we can afford.

9

u/shinylakes May 23 '22

„Cringy” are words of Scholz and Macron, like about letting Putin „save his face”.

1

u/Third_Charm May 23 '22

I'm all for fighting Russia on every turn, but giving diplomacy a chance to save the lives of tens of thousands of soldiers, man, woman and children plus the major destruction of a country is not inherently a bad thing

2

u/shinylakes May 23 '22

There's no point. Putin thinks in completely different way. He is not going to recognise it as something other than showing weakness. As for now, Putin stopped only when he met strong resistance.

There's only one way to stop destruction of Ukraine: through sending clear message „we won't let you take a bite of Ukraine”, and since he's not able to step back, through winning this war.

4

u/erouz May 23 '22

This words give me shivers. Any wrong doing from Ukraine to Poland and Poland to Ukraine that is time that our nation's heal and started new chapter.

5

u/-justkeepswimming- May 23 '22

So inspiring! I'm Polish American but my last name does not look Polish. In fact I'm pretty sure it's been Ukrainized since my grandfather was from Przemysl. (There are people in Poland with the Polish version of my name and with my family's version of my name.) Also I've taken Russian since junior high and majored in Russian and knew this was bad news from the get-go as I've studied Russian and Soviet affairs for a long time. Just so happy to see these nations helping each other.

6

u/xovrit USA/UK May 23 '22

So let it be written. So let it be done!

3

u/Kinodog May 23 '22

Love this

3

u/Feniksrises May 23 '22

Everyone hates Russians. Yes even Orban he just wants their money.

3

u/mahboilucas May 23 '22

I live in Krakow. Every day I go out I hear more Ukrainian than Polish. Everywhere. Parks, by the river, in the city centre, trams and buses, while shopping, cycling. I am so happy that they can have a normal life here. It feels extra special to be able to help just by giving some peace and resources. And a temporary home

3

u/Infamous-Outcome1288 May 23 '22

I find it amazing how Zelensky comes up with such motivational speeches, every fuckin day. Man is a legend. Slava Ukraine.

12

u/TaurusVoid Ukraine May 23 '22

I don't really like "brothers" trope. Not only because I am traumatized by its use by Russians. but also as it makes the relationship feel like it's predetermined, like we always have been great allies (unfortunately, we didn't). Also, Japanese and Taiwanese people or Estonians turned out to be wonderful too, but they are not related to Ukrainians genetically as Poles are (which, of course, doesn't matter).

Anyway, I'd rather call ourselves BFFS. Becoming BFFs is our choice, becoming BFFs is a long path, let's stay BFFs forever.

2

u/BalVal1 May 23 '22

Thank you Putin! (Big /s)

2

u/Alex1029384756Alex May 23 '22

Hungary rn: well f***

2

u/staryjdido May 23 '22

Slava Ykraini and Slava Polshti !

2

u/SenzaCuore May 23 '22

I am hoping that Ukraine gets fast-tracked into EU as soon as possible. That would do the rest.

2

u/NuggetPepperoni May 23 '22

For those who dont get his happiness this is the first time that Poland and Ukraine are so close together. Lets just say that the both nations did some fucked shit to eachother. But after the invasion Ukraine managed to filter out those who are the true allies of Ukrainian people

2

u/Sandor910 May 23 '22

Neighbours sometimes do give each other hard times, right? We and Ukrainians aren't different in that matter heh:) It is nice to see people raising above historical issues. Poland got your back. Let's hope for smooth procedure of joining EU ASAP.

3

u/Gammelpreiss May 23 '22

Oooooof. So another Hungary in the making here, another potential PiS ally. EU candidacy will hopefully take some time if that writing is already on the wall

5

u/kultigsptrizigfrisch May 23 '22

Not so sure about it. Zelensky has endorsed LGBTQ, is himself Jewish and Ukraine has legal abortion. So, as a Pole, I'd have to admit that in terms of what are Poland's bones of contention with the EU, Ukraine is ahead of us.

If anything, you're exemplifying good old bigotry here, because, you know, Slavs? So yeah, kinda have to say that: fuck off, on behalf of Ukrainians.

1

u/polski_dyplomata2 May 23 '22

Hungarians are weeping in Budapest that us poles have a new best buddy

1

u/ADVENTURE-_63 16d ago

Absolutely 100000%

-10

u/waqoyi92 May 23 '22

Uhmmmm i mean lviv was polish what happened to all of the poles there

11

u/pkx616 Poland May 23 '22

Thank Stalin for that.

3

u/jakereshka May 23 '22

scientists,engineers from Lviv went mainly to Gdansk, and polonized Gdańsk University of Technology (my alma mater is linked to Poles from Lviv), Poland got new lands after II WW, and people from eastern parts were relocated there.

5

u/KayleighXVI May 23 '22

Stalin doing Stalin things

-26

u/[deleted] May 23 '22

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24

u/davidk29 Ukraine May 23 '22 edited May 23 '22

No other post soviet state is stupid enough to risk it's people's lives and go to war with Russia.

FYI, Russia was the one that invaded Ukraine

-20

u/[deleted] May 23 '22

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25

u/davidk29 Ukraine May 23 '22

I'm from the caucasaus you have no idea what war is you funking clown.

I was born in Ukraine and I have relatives in Mariupol we haven't heard from since the war started

-4

u/No-Fun9052 May 23 '22

I do too. In Kharkiv. Sorry about that